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THE MERCY OF PURGATORY

Jack FlashJack FlashOld Faithful

For most of us that's the first eternal stop.

 

The Virgin once said, at an apparition site, that many go to Hell, a small number go directly to Heaven, and that the majority of people go to Purgatory. It's the huge area between Heaven and Hell. It's the place where everything from minor faults to serious sin are purged. It's a gray area just as there are gray areas in all aspects of existence.

 

But in the case of Purgatory it's gray literally. Although it too has fire, especially at its lowest depth (which borders Hell), for the most part Purgatory is described as a sort of dreary and foggy area. You could call it "the gray zone. "It has been a concept in the Church since the earliest days and has been formally accepted since the Middle Ages.

 

The official recognition of Purgatory can be found in a letter by Pope Innocent IV in 1254 and at the Second Council of Lyon soon after (then later at the Council of Trent).

 

Although Protestants have erased it, Purgatory was even accepted by their founder, Martin Luther.

 

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation," says the Catechism. "But after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of Heaven."

 

When we comprehend that only perfect purity leads to God's Presence we realize that the vast majority of people, Christian or non-Christian, need purification--including those who, in their pride, believe they merit Heaven. Unless you're flawless, unless you have purged all your imperfections here on earth (often through suffering) and are in perfect union with God, you are headed for a stint, however brief, in Purgatory.

 

There God takes the souls He loves and breaks down all its pretenses.

You're purified like precious metal.

 

When the defects are gone, when the soul is broken down, when the selfishness is removed, the Lord then reforms the soul and gives it the pure apparel necessary to enter the wedding.

Such notions are not Catholic fantasy. Among other places you can find allusions to Purgatory in the Bible.

 

In II Maccabees 12:42-46 it relates how a man named Judas and his army gathered up the dead, prayed for them, and even provided for sacrifice. Atonement was made "that they might be freed from this sin.

 

"Another translation of this text clearly states that "it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead to be loosed from their sins."It says that what these ancients did for the slain was "pray for them in death."

 

If that's not clear enough, there's also 2 Timothy 1:16-18 where Paul speaks of his departed friend Onesiphorus and says, "When he stands before the Lord on the great Day, may the Lord grant him mercy" (which makes sense only if this deceased man can be helped by prayer), and 1 Samuel 31:13 where it's implied that the residents of Jabesh fasted for Saul and his sons after disposing of their remains--again indicating Purgatory.

 

There is written evidence from as long ago as a.d. 211 that Christians prayed and sacrificed for the deceased (see the writings of Tertullian, who said such sacrifices were made on the birthdays and anniversaries of the dead), and there's no doubt ancient Jews prayed for those in the afterlife. It was an established part of synagogue ritual.

 

Unfortunately many Protestants have deleted Maccabees from the Bible but that doesn't change the truth. Purgatory exists and most of us face its purification. When we sin our souls are tainted. There's darkness. There's spiritual grit. That must be removed and the extent and duration of cleansing obviously depends on the depth and breadth of contamination.

 

"In Purgatory there are different levels," explained one seer.  "The lowest is close to Hell and the highest gradually draws near Heaven."

 

This is in accord with St. Augustine, who said the same fire that tortures the ****ed "purifies the elect."

 

 

http://www.spiritdaily.com/Afterlife2015c.htm

 

 

Last edited by Jack Flash
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OA Old AmericanHall of Famer

First eternal stop? Eternal means forever, you cannot have more than one forever. Prime example of making God's word say something it does not. No wonder people are confused about religion. Too many people want to insert their own version of what God said, instead of taking it for what God actually said. Stop trying to play God and use some common sense.

Jack FlashJack FlashOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Old American:

First eternal stop? Eternal means forever, you cannot have more than one forever. Prime example of making God's word say something it does not. No wonder people are confused about religion. Too many people want to insert their own version of what God said, instead of taking it for what God actually said. Stop trying to play God and use some common sense.

The first stop for some of us on everyone's eternal trip.

 

Did I make the Bible say something different than what it says.?

What did God actually say OA, what did Jesus say he was wrong about.?

Reading the Bible isn't playing God.

 

Show me where I'm wrong..

 

ContendahhContendahhOld Faithful

So much speculation, Jack, and so little substance.

 

For example:

 

1. I Samuel 31:13 says only this:  "And they took their bones, and buried them under a tree at Jabesh, and fasted seven days."

 

There is no mention of or implication of prayer in this verse. Besides, in the days in which Saul lived and died and in New Testament times as well, fasting, with or without prayer,  often was practiced  on occasions of sadness or trouble or in connection with the task of making important decisions, apart from any intent to intervene in behalf of the dead.  Examples--just a few of many:  

 
1 Kings 21:27
And it came to pass, when Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly.
 
2 Samuel 12:16
David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. (David was not praying or fasting for a dead child, but for a sick one).
 
Acts 13:2
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
 
Acts 13:3
And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
 
2)  As to Onesiphorus, there is no certainty that he was dead when Paul was writing of him in II Tim. 1:18. Before any proposition that justifies prayers for the dead could be supported by this passage, it would have to be proved that Onesiphorus was dead. Paul's reference to the "house of Onesiphorus" could well have, and likely did, include Onesiphorus himself.  For example Stephanas  was was one of Paul's converts at Corinth.   In I Cor.1:15, Paul writes,  "I baptized also the household of Stephanas.... (Note that the English translations of "house" and "household" refer to the same Greek word, "oikos.")  It is evident that Paul included Stephanas within the term "household of Stephanas, "as is  made certain by his subsequent reference to both the man and his household in I Corinthians 16: 15 and 16:
 

15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,

16 That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth.

17 I am glad of the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied.

 

Stephanas did not have to be a dead man in order for the apostle to refer to the "house of Stephanas.  Obviously, he was very much alive at that time. Similarly, the reference to the "house of Onesiphorus" provides no basis whatsoever for concluding that Onesiphorus was dead, let alone in need of prayer for release from some supposed Purgatorial domain.

 

Conclusion:  This passage (I Tim. 1:18) gives no support to the notion of Purgatory.

Last edited by Contendahh
Jack FlashJack FlashOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Contendahh:

So much speculation, Jack, and so little substance.

 

For example:

 

1. I Samuel 31:13 says only this:  "And they took their bones, and buried them under a tree at Jabesh, and fasted seven days."

 

There is no mention of or implication of prayer in this verse. Besides, in the days in which Saul lived and died and in New Testament times as well, fasting, with or without prayer,  often was practiced  on occasions of sadness or trouble or in connection with the task of making important decisions, apart from any intent to intervene in behalf of the dead.  Examples--just a few of many:  

 
1 Kings 21:27
And it came to pass, when Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly.
 
2 Samuel 12:16
David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. (David was not praying or fasting for a dead child, but for a sick one).
 
Acts 13:2
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
 
Acts 13:3
And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
 
2)  As to Onesiphorus, there is no certainty that he was dead when Paul was writing of him in II Tim. 1:18. Before any proposition that justifies prayers for the dead could be supported by this passage, it would have to be proved that Onesiphorus was dead. Paul's reference to the "house of Onesiphorus" could well have, and likely did, include Onesiphorus himself.  For example Stephanas  was was one of Paul's converts at Corinth.   In I Cor.1:15, Paul writes,  "I baptized also the household of Stephanas.... (Note that the English translations of "house" and "household" refer to the same Greek word, "oikos.")  It is evident that Paul included Stephanas within the term "household of Stephanas, "as is  made certain by his subsequent reference to both the man and his household in I Corinthians 16: 15 and 16:
 

15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,

16 That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth.

17 I am glad of the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied.

 

Stephanas did not have to be a dead man in order for the apostle to refer to the "house of Stephanas.  Obviously, he was very much alive at that time. Similarly, the reference to the "house of Onesiphorus" provides no basis whatsoever for concluding that Onesiphorus was dead, let alone in need of prayer for release from some supposed Purgatorial domain.

 

Conclusion:  This passage (I Tim. 1:18) gives no support to the notion of Purgatory.

It wasn't I Tim,,,it was 2 Tim. 1: 16-18

How are you so sure Onesiphorus was alive the way Paul talked.?

Onesiphorus seems to have died before this letter was written. His family

is mentioned twice (here and in  2 Tim 4:19), though it was Onesiphorus

himself who was helpful to Paul in prison and rendered much service to

the community of Ephesus. Because the apostle complains of

abandonment by all in Asia during his second imprisonment and trial,

the assistance of Onesiphorus seems to have been given to Paul during

his first Roman imprisonment.

 

2 Samuel 12:...   Yes David prayed for the life of the child, but the message

is God does forgive sin, but you still pay restitution for those sins.

 

OA Old AmericanHall of Famer

Reading the Bible is not playing God, but when you try to make it say something it does not, then you are playing God. You show me anywhere in the Bible where the word purgatory is mentioned  and while you are reading try to find the word pope. Colossians 1:18 says Christ is the head of the Church not the pope. God also said to appoint Elders also called Bishops and Deacons in every congregation and never mentioned anyone being over all churches but Christ. Christ died on the cross for our sins and He nailed the Old Law to the cross. We are under the perfect law of Liberty, the New Testament and that is where we go to find out what God wants and commands us to do. You are trying to follow a man made religion that God will not accept. You were telling your version of what you wanted it to say. God warned us in Revelation to not add to or take away from His word. If we do not accomplish His will on this earth and we die the next step will be judgment day. 

direstraitsdirestraitsOld Faithful

One must be careful when applying meaning.  Jews believe in purgatory, but not hell.  The classical pagans described the underworld (Hades) where one went to burnish one's soul before entering the paradise like Elysian Fields.  Souls near da mnation were given a chance to avoid Tartarus (hell) in Hades.  Hades, itself, was described as a cold, dismal place -- if one sacrificed an animal to a dead soul they could receive relief for a time.  Souls that could not advance were sent back reincarnated. 

 

During the three days between the cross and his resurrection, the Bible says Christ descended to Hades to let loose the righteous, who knew not of God. 

Last edited by direstraits
Jack FlashJack FlashOld Faithful

Reading the Bible is not playing God, but when you try to make it say something it does not, then you are playing God. You show me anywhere in the Bible where the word purgatory is mentioned and while you are reading try to find the word pope.

~~~~~~~~~

 

Maybe you aren't a Christian if the word Trinity isn't in the Bible. Or maybe

atheism, Divinity, Incarnation, Monotheism, Rapture or buick, are you

having trouble finding theses words.? Of course the word pope isn't in the

Bible any more than Old American.

 

But I did find, Matthew 16: 16-20, when Jesus made Peter the head of

his Church until he returns for it. The Church came up with the title of

Pope which doesn't change the meaning of scripture at all.

If Jesus was just playing God what can we do about that.?

 

Col. 1: 18-- "And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the

beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the

primacy." Yes, Christ is the Body of the Church and if he left his Church

without an organized form of leadership with one interim head you would

have it as you have it now.

 

Thousands of variations of what Jesus tried to prevent with one head.

I've said nothing that didn't come from the Bible, Jesus created his

Church which has been called Catholic since the year appox. AD 110.

What role did Martin Luther play in your version of your denomination

a few hundred years ago. Who has the man made religion.?

 

OA Old AmericanHall of Famer

Like I said stop putting your own version about what the Bible says. Matthew 16: 16-20 does not say Christ made Peter the head of the Church. The rock refers to Peters confession that Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God and on this Christ built the Church. The Church does not have two heads only one, Christ. Like I already stated Christ left instruction on how the Church should be run. Elders and Deacons appointed in every church, it never mentions no one being appointed over all the churches but Christ. If Christ died to establish His Church, not the Catholics version of it. Why would you want to call the Church by any name besides Christ. Peter was guided by the Holy Spirit as was all the writers of the New Testament. No one was able to instruct us to do anything but the Godhead which consist of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. All of this is in the Bible, not my version of it. God gave us the choice to believe anything we want to, but that does not mean we are right or wrong, only God knows and He is the one who counts. No one on earth has the power to do what you claim the pope has, no one

Jack FlashJack FlashOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Contendahh:
Originally Posted by Jack Flash:

You're wrong, but I'll let it go at that and we both will move on......

____

Meaning, of course, that all you can do is to baldly assert that I am wrong, because you have no counter-argument with which to challenge what I have posted above. Pretty weak and evasive, Jack. 

I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to Old American as you well know, but

state your business and I'll reply.

 

ContendahhContendahhOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Jack Flash:
Originally Posted by Contendahh:

 

It wasn't I Tim,,,it was 2 Tim. 1: 16-18

How are you so sure Onesiphorus was alive the way Paul talked.?

Onesiphorus seems to have died before this letter was written. His family

is mentioned twice (here and in  2 Tim 4:19), though it was Onesiphorus

himself who was helpful to Paul in prison and rendered much service to

the community of Ephesus. Because the apostle complains of

abandonment by all in Asia during his second imprisonment and trial,

the assistance of Onesiphorus seems to have been given to Paul during

his first Roman imprisonment.

 

2 Samuel 12:...   Yes David prayed for the life of the child, but the message

is God does forgive sin, but you still pay restitution for those sins.

____

 

 

You have not touched the case I made for a then-living Onesiphorus.  I pointed out to you from scripture that the reference to the "house of Onesiphorus" forms no basis for a conclusion that the man had died, any more than the reference to the "house of Stephanas"," made while HE obviously was still living, gives support to the notion that he was dead.

 

Jack FlashJack FlashOld Faithful

2 Timothy 1: 16-18  ........  Paul said this;

 

 16  The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath

 often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain:

 17  But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me.

 18  The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in

 how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.

 

 Paul's wording would more than likely tell you Onesiphorus was dead before the

letter was written. Sending a letter to Onesiphorus if he were alive would be just

that, but he sent it to the household of the family. He sends his condolences with

reasons he was a true friend. If Onesiphorus were alive, Paul would've sent the

letter to him and it wouldn't have been worded as if the person died.

Last edited by Jack Flash
OA Old AmericanHall of Famer

Why so many people are confused about religion is you putting words like as if, it says this but must have meant that. There is no proof whatsoever in Gods word to back up the false teaching of purgatory. I am going to give you book, chapter, and verse what the Bible says verses what the Catholic Church teaches. 1. Calling their priest Father. Matt. 23:9. 2.Praying repetitive words using rosary beads. Matt:6;7. 3. Mary the mediator between God and man And that she remained a virgin. Matt: 13; 55,56, Matt. 1: 24,25, 1 Tim. 2:5, Luke 11: 27, 28. 4. In taking communion they forbid some to drink the cup. Matt. 26: 26-28, 1Cor. 11: 23-28. 5. In 1079 A.D. The Catholic Church decided that Bishops could not marry. 1Tim. 3: 2-5, 1Tim. 4: 1-3. 6. If Peter was the first pope why was he married? Mark 1:30, 1Cor. 9:5.  6.Sprinkling babies. Acts 2: 37,38. These are only a few things that are being taught that cannot be found in Gods word. I gave book, chapter and verse that everyone can read for themselves and I said nothing about what I think they mean just Gods Holy Word.

BestworkingBestworkingOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Old American:

Why so many people are confused about religion is you putting words like as if, it says this but must have meant that. There is no proof whatsoever in Gods word to back up the false teaching of purgatory. I am going to give you book, chapter, and verse what the Bible says verses what the Catholic Church teaches. 1. Calling their priest Father. Matt. 23:9. 2.Praying repetitive words using rosary beads. Matt:6;7. 3. Mary the mediator between God and man And that she remained a virgin. Matt: 13; 55,56, Matt. 1: 24,25, 1 Tim. 2:5, Luke 11: 27, 28. 4. In taking communion they forbid some to drink the cup. Matt. 26: 26-28, 1Cor. 11: 23-28. 5. In 1079 A.D. The Catholic Church decided that Bishops could not marry. 1Tim. 3: 2-5, 1Tim. 4: 1-3. 6. If Peter was the first pope why was he married? Mark 1:30, 1Cor. 9:5.  6.Sprinkling babies. Acts 2: 37,38. These are only a few things that are being taught that cannot be found in Gods word. I gave book, chapter and verse that everyone can read for themselves and I said nothing about what I think they mean just Gods Holy Word.

===============

Goodness. There's nothing but contradictions in the bible and in what people believe. Everyone believes different things. You can no more tell Jack he's the reason for confusion than you can anyone else.

Jack FlashJack FlashOld Faithful
 
 
Originally Posted by Contendahh:

 You have not touched the case I made for a then-living Onesiphorus.  I pointed out to you from scripture that the reference to the "house of Onesiphorus" forms no basis for a conclusion that the man had died, any more than the reference to the "house of Stephanas"," made while HE obviously was still living, gives support to the notion that he was dead.

~~~~~~~~~~

 

2 Timothy 1: 16-18  ........  Paul said this;

 

 16  The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath

 often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain:

 17  But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me.

 18  The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in

 how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.

****

 

Paul's wording would more than likely tell you Onesiphorus was dead before

the letter was written. Sending a letter to Onesiphorus if he were alive would be

just that, but he sent it to the household of the family. He sends his condolences

with reasons he was a true friend. If Onesiphorus were alive, Paul would've sent

the letter to him and it wouldn't have been worded as if the person died.

 

Hello ..........? Confail ...... ?

 

OA Old AmericanHall of Famer

There are no contradictions in the Bible. When the Bible plainly says something and then we say or do something different, then we are the ones that are contradicting it. There are areas where God did not specify how certain things should be done then it is our responsibility to do it in a way that we do not contradict other scripture, but when He specifically says not to do something and we do it that is going against Gods word. Two examples would be calling someone on earth Father when God said to not address anyone but Him as Father. Matt. 23:9, another would be saying Mary is our mediator between us and God when the Bible plainly states that Jesus is and only Him. I am not going to give my opinion on Gods word because my opinion is no better than someone else, it is only what I think. It is o.k. To have an opinion as long as it does not conflict with what God has said. People have always argued over Gods word and probably will continue to do so. I really don't know anything else that I can say but we all need to do our best to do what the Bible says and not add to it or take away from it. Rev. 22: 18, 19. Thanks.

BestworkingBestworkingOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Old American:

There are no contradictions in the Bible. When the Bible plainly says something and then we say or do something different, then we are the ones that are contradicting it. There are areas where God did not specify how certain things should be done then it is our responsibility to do it in a way that we do not contradict other scripture, but when He specifically says not to do something and we do it that is going against Gods word. Two examples would be calling someone on earth Father when God said to not address anyone but Him as Father. Matt. 23:9, another would be saying Mary is our mediator between us and God when the Bible plainly states that Jesus is and only Him. I am not going to give my opinion on Gods word because my opinion is no better than someone else, it is only what I think. It is o.k. To have an opinion as long as it does not conflict with what God has said. People have always argued over Gods word and probably will continue to do so. I really don't know anything else that I can say but we all need to do our best to do what the Bible says and not add to it or take away from it. Rev. 22: 18, 19. Thanks.

================

No contradictions? Which bible do you read? Do what the bible says? Oh, so we can kill all the women that are non-virgins on their wedding night? We can take our enemies children and bash in their heads? I could go on, but if you have ever read the bible you know the horror stories in it.

Last edited by Bestworking
BestworkingBestworkingOld Faithful

Yea, that "old law" stuff. Well, sorry, but it existed, and saying you don't have to do it any longer means nothing. It still speaks to a blood thirsty, vengeful entity. Imagine, getting all weepy over a god that used to tell people to slaughter other people. That's bad enough, but babies, and animals? And people use the excuse that they don't have to do that anymore? Sheesh.

OA Old AmericanHall of Famer

If you would read all what the Bible has to say about the Old Law you would understand that a lot of what was under the Old Law had been added by the priests and God said it was not so from the beginning. An example would be Moses giving a written of divorce for all kinds of reasons, but God said it was not so from the beginning. Matthew 10:4 Jesus said they did it out of the hardness of their heart. They had taken the Old Law and added to it to where it was impossible to obey it. No one can understand the Bible unless you read both the Old and New Testament. Man has always been been responsible for creating problems, not God.

semiannualchicksemiannualchickOld Faithful

I'm seeing more & more that Religion, like Politics, is best not even discussed. People can't or refuse to rationally or intelligently discuss either one. Someone gets pizzed off because someone else disagree with their version of what the Bible says, and/or what they believe.

If the Bible is true, it's not going to matter in the end. If God is real, those that are right/true will go to Heaven but the majority of us will go to Hell, especially those that add to the Bible when it's not supposed to be added to or changed. There's no changing that.

BestworkingBestworkingOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Old American:

If you would read all what the Bible has to say about the Old Law you would understand that a lot of what was under the Old Law had been added by the priests and God said it was not so from the beginning. An example would be Moses giving a written of divorce for all kinds of reasons, but God said it was not so from the beginning. Matthew 10:4 Jesus said they did it out of the hardness of their heart. They had taken the Old Law and added to it to where it was impossible to obey it. No one can understand the Bible unless you read both the Old and New Testament. Man has always been been responsible for creating problems, not God.

What makes you think I haven't read it? Now you're saying it wasn't your god that said those things? Again, which bible are you reading?

OA Old AmericanHall of Famer

I did not say you had not read it. I said read all of it and don't take one part and try to make it the only thing that pertains to it. God said they put these laws in there because of the hardness of their hearts but is was not so from the beginning.  It was recorded in the Bible because of the hardness of the heart of priests and scribes of that time. The Bible is our instruction book on how to live. If you buy something that comes with instructions you have to do all it says not part of it or it won't be correct. If you do not want to believe in God you can always find excuses not to but they are nothing more than excuses.

Believe it's true or not that is our choice. I really know of nothing else that I can say, maybe others can. Thanks

smokey1smokey1Hall of Famer
Originally Posted by Old American:

Read the whole Bible, we are no longer under the Old Law. Christ fulfilled the Old Law when He was crucified on the cross and established the New Law. That New Law is what we now live under. There are numerous passages that tell us this. Colossians 2:14 would be one. This New Law is referred to as the perfect law of Liberty. James 1:25.

==========================

If we are no longer under the old law then why do churches still read from it during their services and preachers still preach on it?

BestworkingBestworkingOld Faithful

 If you do not want to believe in God you can always find excuses not to but they are nothing more than excuses.

Believe it's true or not that is our choice. I really know of nothing else that I can say, maybe others can. Thanks

=======================

No, it's not a choice, and you know that, but you can't get your head around the fact that there are people that just don't believe, so your excuse is that they have chosen not to believe. I don't need an excuse, I just don't believe. For it to be a choice as you want people to think, I would have had to start in my early teens "pondering" the idea that one day, for no good reason I can think of, I'd just up and "decide" not to believe. That's not how it happens. Most people go through years of doubt and looking for answers before they admit to themselves and others that they just don't believe any more. If it was a choice as you claim, I believe more would choose NOT to believe it.

Last edited by Bestworking
OA Old AmericanHall of Famer

Because all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproff, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 2Timothy 3:16. There is no way to understand Gods plan for man without studying all His word. When Christ gave His life for our sins He nailed the Old Law to the cross and established the New Law that we now live under. The Bible says He did not come to destroy the Old Law but to fulfill it. Matthew 5:17.

semiannualchicksemiannualchickOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Old American:

The Bible is our instruction book on how to live. If you buy something that comes with instructions you have to do all it says not part of it or it won't be correct. If you do not want to believe in God you can always find excuses not to but they are nothing more than excuses.

Believe it's true or not that is our choice. I really know of nothing else that I can say, maybe others can.

________
 
Originally Posted by Old American:

I choose to believe in God because I love Him not because i am afraid of Him nor death. 

_____

OA, the Bible is an instruction book that you chose to pick-up, read & believe in. You said if we buy something that comes with instructions we have to read all of it or it won't be correct. That's not true. I have purchased things that all I had to do was look at it to figure it out. Sometimes it's so simple you don't need those instructions.

What if I said to you that if you want to believe in God, all you have to do is find excuses to believe in Him? You can read that Bible & instantly believe in it as a child believes in a fairy tale. Some of us don't stop with the story book of the Bible. Some of us search farther to find the truth beyond a book that makes no sense to us. Doesn't make us any different than you. You choose to believe it, others choose not to believe it because it makes no sense.

You said you know of nothing else to say, that maybe others can. If you're trying to change our mind, to make us believe in your God, I don't think you can & why would you want to? Are we supposed to take that same stand & try to convince you that God doesn't exist?

 

You love God because you have it in your head that if you're not good & don't obey Him, he'll throw you in a fire pit. You believe He's building a city of Gold, where you never have to work again & you'll have magic powers. It's like a fantasy life.

I don't say those things to be rude. It's only my opinion, just as you have yours. 

BestworkingBestworkingOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Old American:

Best you can believe whatever you want, it is clear to me that you do not want anything to do with religion, so don't let it bother you. You choose what you want to and I will to. I choose to believe in God because I love Him not because i am afraid of Him nor death. 

===========================

You choose to believe what you want, and I will follow what my heart and mind tells me is right. I am around religion all the time, it would be impossible not to be because of my family and so many friends that are religious/believers, and religion doesn't bother me one bit. It's what some do in the name of religion that I don't like. That's something people like you don't ever think about, an atheist having family and friends "in the church". I would no more attack them for what they believe and try to change them, than they would me.

 

The ones that have been around me for my "growing up" years know I didn't make a choice to stop believing. The ones that were around during the years I started having doubts, know exactly how it "evolved". They may not understand it, but they accept ME and my husband and, again, know it wasn't a choice. I am no different than before, I'm just without the religious "trappings". Others know too that we didn't "make a choice" because they have enough sense to know it isn't a choice.

 

When they tell me they have prayed for me, during illness or something else, such as the tornadoes, or pending surgery, I don't go all to pieces because they are praying. I know they prayed for my well being, NOT that I would change my views. I don't believe in prayer, but they do, it comforted them, and I was touched to know they were concerned and thinking of my well being.

 

Some of the so called Christians that post on here, and only want to judge and argue, should have friends as dear, as should others out there. It's true I have very little patience with people that claim outrageous things, such as non-belief is a choice, or atheists follow satan, or they "quit" the church to "follow the world". All of which is really funny when you see how many christians are out there doing that stuff.  I mean people that really believe in a god and all, but still go about their "evil ways". We see them right here on this forum.

 

There's a "preacher" in this area, and there has never lived a more hateful, mean, spiteful human. When I witnessed one of his tirades against someone I made a remark on his surly, hateful attitude, and said I wondered how his daughter could let him pick up her kids from school knowing how her father acted around them and others. When a women said, "and him being a preacher too" I thought it was a joke and laughed. She said "no, no joke, he preaches at so and so church"! So again, you think it's a choice, I know it isn't. You take up for folks because "they are in the church", and attack the ones that aren't, I will take people for the kind of people they are.

Last edited by Bestworking
Jack FlashJack FlashOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Jack Flash:
 
 
Originally Posted by Contendahh:

 You have not touched the case I made for a then-living Onesiphorus.  I pointed out to you from scripture that the reference to the "house of Onesiphorus" forms no basis for a conclusion that the man had died, any more than the reference to the "house of Stephanas"," made while HE obviously was still living, gives support to the notion that he was dead.

~~~~~~~~~~

 

2 Timothy 1: 16-18  ........  Paul said this;

 

 16  The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath

 often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain:

 17  But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me.

 18  The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in

 how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.

****

 

Paul's wording would more than likely tell you Onesiphorus was dead before

the letter was written. Sending a letter to Onesiphorus if he were alive would be

just that, but he sent it to the household of the family. He sends his condolences

with reasons he was a true friend. If Onesiphorus were alive, Paul would've sent

the letter to him and it wouldn't have been worded as if the person died.

 

Hello ..........? Confail ...... ?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

 

I just touched the case you made for the already dead Onesiphorus,,,

you could at least put a wreath on his door and admit I'm right.

amiright..??

 

Last edited by Jack Flash
ContendahhContendahhOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Jack Flash:
Originally Posted by Jack Flash:
 
 
Originally Posted by Contendahh:

 You have not touched the case I made for a then-living Onesiphorus.  I pointed out to you from scripture that the reference to the "house of Onesiphorus" forms no basis for a conclusion that the man had died, any more than the reference to the "house of Stephanas"," made while HE obviously was still living, gives support to the notion that he was dead.

~~~~~~~~~~

 

2 Timothy 1: 16-18  ........  Paul said this;

 

 16  The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath

 often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain:

 17  But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me.

 18  The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in

 how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.

****

 

Paul's wording would more than likely tell you Onesiphorus was dead before

the letter was written. Sending a letter to Onesiphorus if he were alive would be

just that, but he sent it to the household of the family. He sends his condolences

with reasons he was a true friend. If Onesiphorus were alive, Paul would've sent

the letter to him and it wouldn't have been worded as if the person died.

 

Hello ..........? Confail ...... ?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

 

I just touched the case you made for the already dead Onesiphorus,,,

you could at least put a wreath on his door and admit I'm right.

amiright..??

 

____

The letter was not sent to either Onesiphorus or to his family.  The letter was sent to Timothy.  Paul, in his epistles, often sent greetings to persons or groups other than those to whom the letter was addressed.

 

I showed you an example of the mode of address often used in the New Testament when  the writer intended to subsume an entire household, including the head of same.  You have simply ignored that and proceeded to make your shaky claim, with the best you have to offer being "more than likely," which is no more than your unsupported opinion.  Under these circumstances, your confidence is misplaced if you think you have scored any points here.

 

ContendahhContendahhOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Originally Posted by Old American:

Best you can believe whatever you want, it is clear to me that you do not want anything to do with religion, so don't let it bother you. You choose what you want to and I will to. I choose to believe in God because I love Him not because i am afraid of Him nor death. 

===========================

 

The ones that have been around me for my "growing up" years know I didn't make a choice to stop believing. The ones that were around during the years I started having doubts, know exactly how it "evolved". They may not understand it, but they accept ME and my husband and, again, know it wasn't a choice. I am no different than before, I'm just without the religious "trappings". Others know too that we didn't "make a choice" because they have enough sense to know it isn't a choice.

 

 ___

How very fuzzy all that is!  You had doubts.  And you wrestled with those doubts.  And  you "evolved" to the point that you decided  not believe in God. But somehow you have "reasoned" that in that process you made no "choice" in  the matter?. There is only one way to characterize your conclusion, Best:   It DOES NOT COMPUTE. You yourself have described the process of making a choice!

Last edited by Contendahh
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