The Only True Source Of Christian Knowledge

7 and 8 are just crazy talk. As crazy as the Book of the Mormen or Dianetics. Where is the Sermon on the Mount?

Does the Talking Snake have to be believed as literal as well? I like to think of it as a typo and that it was actually a flying monkey. It gives me great comfort imagining the little bell hop hat.

I would say #7 should be "The Rapture". The word Pretribulation, just like MidTribulation or PostTribulation and PreWrath are more doctrinal differences about the timing of a Rapture and therefore not dogma but doctrine. Some even find doctrinal differences in a premillennial Second Coming, which I accept and believe in yet again I realize that as a doctrinal issue rather than one of dogma which would be the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

Others would say it's all Semantics.

as i said before, you can believe and say anything you like, but in the end its completely out of your hands.

quote:

Sorry, my Friend, but the only source of Christian knowledge which is 100% right -- is the Bible.

Sure. If you adhere to a "sola scriptura" theology.
However, many of us place proper value on Sacred Tradtition, as Apostolic Teaching. Doesn't make it any less right. And is extremely important to many people's faith.
When will you get over yourself, and realize that other people have different opinions/doctrines/etc. that are EQUALLY VALID as yours. ??

quote:

Originally posted by tcf531:
as i said before, you can believe and say anything you like, but in the end its completely out of your hands.

Hi TCF,

Far from it! The end results are TOTALLY in your hands?

When God created you; He gave you "free will" -- the free will to choose to follow Jesus Christ or to deny Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ died on the cross to allow you to have salvation by choosing to follow Him.

He rose from the grave, resurrected, to assure that you and I WILL live eternally.

IF you choose to follow Jesus Christ -- you will live eternally with Him.

IF you choose to deny Jesus Christ -- you will live eternally with Satan.

The choice is yours and yours alone. Your parents, your friends -- not even God can make that choice for you. ONLY YOU can decide where you will spend eternity.

But, not making a conscience decision -- is making a decision. For, you see, the "default decision" is eternal life with Satan. To have eternal life with Jesus Christ -- YOU MUST make that decision and then follow Him.

I pray that you already have, or very soon will -- make the right choice. Delaying the decision is a bad choice also; for none of us knows how many more heart beats we have left.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:
I would say #7 should be "The Rapture". The word Pretribulation, just like MidTribulation or PostTribulation and PreWrath are more doctrinal differences about the timing of a Rapture and therefore not dogma but doctrine. Some even find doctrinal differences in a premillennial Second Coming, which I accept and believe in yet again I realize that as a doctrinal issue rather than one of dogma which would be the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Others would say it's all Semantics.

Hi GBRK,

Actually, PreTrib and PreMillennial are the only views that really are supported by Scripture. And, PreWrath is a view from the minds of Marvin Rosenthal and Robert Van Kampen. They seem to be the only ones I know who support this view. From my studies, I surely cannot find PreWrath in Scripture.

But, regardless of which view a Christian believer holds -- we will all know the truth on the way up (as in Raptured).

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:

quote:

Sorry, my Friend, but the only source of Christian knowledge which is 100% right -- is the Bible.

Sure. If you adhere to a "sola scriptura" theology.

However, many of us place proper value on Sacred Tradtition, as Apostolic Teaching. Doesn't make it any less right. And is extremely important to many people's faith.
When will you get over yourself, and realize that other people have different opinions/doctrines/etc. that are EQUALLY VALID as yours. ??

Hi VP,

How can a Christian believer NOT believe in the doctrine of Sola Scriptura? Did God somehow author TWO Bibles and I somehow missed it?

No, my Friend, the ONLY book authored by God is the Bible -- therefore Sola Scriptura.

Yes, God gave the Jews His Laws and the Ten Commandments. But, then, He sent Jesus Christ to fulfill the Laws -- and to exemplify the Ten Commandments in His commandments: Love the Lord your God with all your heart. . . and Love your fellow man as yourself.

But, the Jews in the days of the Pharisees attempted to control the people by burdening them with many man-made laws, i.e., traditions -- and today, many Jews still live under the burden of those man-made traditions.

Unfortunately, the same thing happened with the Church of Rome. They felt that God had not done enough, that they had to finish the job which God the Father and Jesus Christ could not finish. So, they created their own man-made Traditions. And, to this day, many sincere folks are living under the burden of these man-made Traditions.

Yet, even with that -- if a person sincerely is born again; if a person sincerely, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else -- will believe and receive His "free gift" of salvation; in spite of those Traditions, this person will be saved and spend eternity with Jesus Christ.

The only sad part about that is that, because this belief depends upon works for salvation, this person can never be sure if and when he has worked enough to earn heaven. When, in reality -- no one can work enough to earn heaven.

Either a person will accept the "free gift" of salvation from Jesus Christ -- or they are in world of trouble.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

The only sad part about that is that, because this belief depends upon works for salvation, this person can never be sure if and when he has worked enough to earn heaven. When, in reality -- no one can work enough to earn heaven.

You know what? I don't think its sad at all. If you believe in works salvation, you might just spend your life doing great things for others, being humble, loving one another, giving service to the least of God's people, and praying for Mercy and forgiveness every day.
works salvation lends to more humility, benevolence and service.

You say Rome was misled- that is YOUR opinion. You really must stop teaching your opinions as they are solely correct. That kind of pride is really quite shameful.
Works salvation, or Apostolic Teaching, believing in Sacred Tradition is not sad at all. It is a call to humility and to follow Christ's life example.
And no, we will never "work" our way into the Kingdom of Heaven. But we will live by Christ's example, doing the most good possible- not just talk talk talking....

quote:

So, they created their own man-made Traditions

This is a lie.
No man created Traditions. They were taught to the Apostles by Jesus Himself, and have been carried through an unbroken Apostolic lineage.

If all this tribulation and rapture nonsense were so bloody important why is it cloaked in prophecy? Why did it just suddenly sprout up one day like mushrooms or mold after a heavy rain in the 19th century? Why are you required to do a heaping shovel full of "interpretation" from various books to derive the Unified Magic Carpet Ride Theory? Why is it not in the Creeds?


Why do you tribulators and rapturebound even bother with church or good deeds when a magic prayer gave you a pass?

Why had I never heard of this stuff until about 25 years ago, and then I confused it with snake handling for a while?

You have been given citations one generation removed from the Apostles that address the role of bishops, presbyters and deacons. Were they in cahoots with Satan as they evangelized the world?

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Unfortunately, the same thing happened with the Church of Rome. They felt that God had not done enough, that they had to finish the job which God the Father and Jesus Christ could not finish. So, they created their own man-made Traditions. And, to this day, many sincere folks are living under the burden of these man-made Traditions.

This is a lie. No man created Traditions. They were taught to the Apostles by Jesus Himself, and have been carried through an unbroken Apostolic lineage.

Hi VP,

If that is true -- why did Jesus Christ wear simple robe and sandals -- and your Roman Catholic hierarchy wears Pharisee looking expensive robes, hats, and fancy garments?

Where in the Bible does Jesus leave this instruction to Peter, Paul, and Mary?

Do you think Jesus would have worn a Rolex?

I bet many in the Vatican do.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Actually, PreTrib and PreMillennial are the only views that really are supported by Scripture. And, PreWrath is a view from the minds of Marvin Rosenthal and Robert Van Kampen. They seem to be the only ones I know who support this view. From my studies, I surely cannot find PreWrath in Scripture.

But, regardless of which view a Christian believer holds -- we will all know the truth on the way up (as in Raptured).

How sad, having to fall upon recent scholars to refute some stickler about part of the Triburapture. Maybe because that is because it not Apostolic Teaching? I vote yes.

The audacity of a sola scriptura advocate falling back on secular works to defend or dash a dogma! Thus is the way of the Radical Reformers.

Cure for the Triburapturists:

Get a copy of End Time, by Russell Boatman and read the chapter on "The Rupture of the Theory of the Rapture." Better yet, read the entire book and learn how the entire Rapture-Tribulation-Premillennialist construct is full of holes! Here are sources:

http://openlibrary.org/books/OL8273963M/End_Time

http://search.barnesandnoble.c...tman/p/9780899003702

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Unfortunately, the same thing happened with the Church of Rome. They felt that God had not done enough, that they had to finish the job which God the Father and Jesus Christ could not finish. So, they created their own man-made Traditions. And, to this day, many sincere folks are living under the burden of these man-made Traditions.

This is a lie. No man created Traditions. They were taught to the Apostles by Jesus Himself, and have been carried through an unbroken Apostolic lineage.

Hi VP,

If that is true -- why did Jesus Christ wear simple robe and sandals -- and your Roman Catholic hierarchy wears Pharisee looking expensive robes, hats, and fancy garments?

Where in the Bible does Jesus leave this instruction to Peter, Paul, and Mary?

Do you think Jesus would have worn a Rolex?

I bet many in the Vatican do.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Do you wear a robe and sandals Bill?

Also show me the part in the bible that tells you to celebrate christmas as jesus birthday?

Isn't that just a man made tradition?

i like playing the "what if" game. so lets play!

bill, WHAT IF, when jesus said peter was the rock he would build his church on, was true? You deny catholicism, where will that put you come judgement day?

quote:

Originally posted by tcf531:
i like playing the "what if" game. so lets play!

bill, WHAT IF, when jesus said peter was the rock he would build his church on, was true? You deny catholicism, where will that put you come judgement day?

I personally see Bill arguing with jesus that what he said in the bible is not exactly what he meant...or either he will be telling god who he(Bill) believes should go to the fiery lake based on how he (Bill) understood his(gods) laws and meanings....

quote:

PreWrath are more doctrinal differences about the timing of a Rapture and therefore not dogma but doctrine. Some even find doctrinal differences in a premillennial Second Coming,

PreWrath are more doctrinal differences about the timing of a Rapture and therefore not dogma but doctrine. Some even find doctrinal differences in a premillennial Second Coming,

quote:

Originally posted by tcf531:
i like playing the "what if" game. so lets play!

bill, WHAT IF, when jesus said peter was the rock he would build his church on, was true? You deny catholicism, where will that put you come judgement day?

Explain why two words for rock were used?

not sure what you are asking about. could it be that he used rock figuratively and literally? peter establishing the catholic church and being the first pope makes him the figurative rock on which it was built, while his tomb being the cornerstone of the vatican makes him the literal rock the church was built upon.

interesting! Have never really thought about it that way...thanks.
I kind of thought maybe He used 2 words so that the message would survive all language scrutiny! ie not to be lost in translation, as it is one of the most important messages..

Hi all,

Or could it be that the word used for ROCK refers to Jesus Christ -- the cornerstone of the church, the family of God -- and the cornerstone of Christianity.

While thie other PEBBLE refers to Peter, the one who would initially lead the church at Jerusalem.

This makes more sense to most folks.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

He called Himself a rock??
Peter 16: And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it.[c]

No, I think He was clearly referring to His Apostle, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:
I would say #7 should be "The Rapture". The word Pretribulation, just like MidTribulation or PostTribulation and PreWrath are more doctrinal differences about the timing of a Rapture and therefore not dogma but doctrine. Some even find doctrinal differences in a premillennial Second Coming, which I accept and believe in yet again I realize that as a doctrinal issue rather than one of dogma which would be the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Others would say it's all Semantics.

Hi GBRK,

Actually, PreTrib and PreMillennial are the only views that really are supported by Scripture. And, PreWrath is a view from the minds of Marvin Rosenthal and Robert Van Kampen. They seem to be the only ones I know who support this view. From my studies, I surely cannot find PreWrath in Scripture.

But, regardless of which view a Christian believer holds -- we will all know the truth on the way up (as in Raptured).

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

We will have to agree to disagree because your scriptural basis for a pretrib rapture is making assumptions about scripture and taking it totally out of context. It is the Pretribulation scripture that is not supported by scripture. We've argued this point many times before and folks only have to look back to those post.

I made repeated post over and over showing that the pre-tribulation is not supported by scripture and asking you questions to answer to support your position which you never would answer because you couldn't. All that aside, your statement that Rapture timing is Dogma rather than a doctrinal position well is evident enough. You might as well say that everyone else is condemned to hell except the very few that believe just as you do. I prefer to allow God to be judge.

Yes there are dogmatic things that are a requisite for salvation and not open to debate but you are adding far too many things into that category. As with Romans Chapter 14 there are debatable issues within Christianity that people can dispute among themselves without becoming hurtful to the cause of Christ. In my opinion you are treading on dangerous judgmental ground which only serves to isolate people rather than addressing the far more meaty issues.

You say I'm wrong, I say you are wrong (about the timing of the Rapture) and others say both of us are wrong and that there isn't a Rapture yet the above has nothing to do with whether a person is saved or not and whether or not (if there is a Rapture, which I believe there will be) we are taken to heaven or not.

Your dangerous teaching that there is a pre-tribulation rapture though could and will lead to dissolution and potentially having them not looking for things they should be looking for, such as the Antichrist and the Mark of the Beast all which, if there is a pre-trib Rapture then the saints of God wouldn't have to worry about. This is essentially what the believers in 2 Thessalonians where they thought Christ had come already and the Rapture had occurred ("gathered to Him"). They are reassured that this will not happen UNTIL the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 (NIV)
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

What about 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 Bill, Is this not written to "Brothers" .. aka saved Christians? You are not in darkness that the day should overtake you as a thief as it will those non-Christians that aren't looking for Christ and looking for the Signs.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 (NIV)
1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,
2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

What's your Scriptural PROOF of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Bill? You said it is Scriptural tell us exactly where Christ said the Rapture would occur before the Tribulations period He (Christ) told his Disciples about in Matthew 24:21. What are the Scriptures you state "prove" without a doubt your doctrinal position concerning the Rapture?

Hi GB,

You are confusing the Day of the Lord with the Rapture. True, the Day of the Lord will not happen until the apostasy and until the Antichrist is revealed. However, the Day of The Lord is speaking of the Tribulation, the wrath which is to come upon the world -- and not the Rapture.

The passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 only speaks of the Day of the Lord and does not mention the Rapture at all.

And, with 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 -- you stopped short. For, in verse 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11, we read, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing."

We are not destined for the wrath. What wrath? The wrath which God will pour out on the unbelieving world during the Tribulation.

Revelation 3:10 confirms this teaching, "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

That "hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world" -- is the wrath, the Tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

This passage is definitely speaking about the Rapture. And, it tells us to comfort one another with these words. If the Rapture is going to happen half way through the Tribulation as Mid-Trib folks believe, or three fourths way through the Tribulation as the PreWrath folks tell us -- or even at the end of the Tribulation as the Post-Trib followers declare -- how can this be any words of comfort to anyone?

Mid-Tribers tell us that we will suffer 3 1/2 years of God's wrath. PreWrath folks say we will suffer 5 1/4 years of God's wrath. And, Post-Tribers believe we will go through 7 years of God's wrath.

If someone tells me, "You will be just fine. We are only going to amputate one one arm and one leg (3 1/2 years) -- but, don't worry."

Or, if another assures me, "You will be fine. We are only going to amputate both arms and both legs (5 1/4 years) -- but, not to worry. Everything will be just fine."

Then, there is the guy who tells us, "Not to worry. We will amputate both arms, both legs, your head -- and cut out your heart (7 years) -- but, you will be just fine."

Sorry, my Friend, but, I cannot see ANY COMFORT in any of those alternatives. None of those would comfort me.

Yet, we are told, "Therefore comfort one another with these words." What words? The promise that the Lord is going to come back in the air, in the clouds -- and take out, gather out, snatch out, RAPTURE His church out of the hour of testing, out of the wrath. Those are the only words in which I can find comfort. I find no comfort whatsoever in living through 3 1/2 years, 5 1/4 years, or 7 years of God's wrath which He has determined on a sinful world.

That, my Friend, is the Scriptural assurance, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, which allows me to sleep well at night.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Now there is a "Day of the Lord!" I thought that was to be every day, and Sunday, especially, myself. You tribulators and rapturites try to force the foot into the shoe and if that does not work, then redefine, interpret again, and then if that does not work, cut off toes!

p.s. The Bible is only the Bible because the Jewish hierarchy and then the Eucumenical Councils decided that they were. The New Testament was a series of 4 histories of the life of Christ, the Gospels; a series of pastoral letters and one of history of the Acts of the Acts of the Apostles and one of prophecy.

There were hundreds of letters (books in Bible talk) out there that various groups used (and some still do) that were not accepted into the Western and Eastern canons.

It was basically the bishops of the universal church that chose what was the Bible and what was not.

quote:

Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Now there is a "Day of the Lord!" I thought that was to be every day, and Sunday, especially, myself. You tribulators and rapturites try to force the foot into the shoe and if that does not work, then redefine, interpret again, and then if that does not work, cut off toes!

p.s. The Bible is only the Bible because the Jewish hierarchy and then the Eucumenical Councils decided that they were. The New Testament was a series of 4 histories of the life of Christ, the Gospels; a series of pastoral letters and one of history of the Acts of the Acts of the Apostles and one of prophecy.

There were hundreds of letters (books in Bible talk) out there that various groups used (and some still do) that were not accepted into the Western and Eastern canons. It was basically the bishops of the universal church that chose what was the Bible and what was not.

Hi Neal,

I realize that you only recognize the four Gospels and possibly some of Acts -- plus your Traditions and Prayer Book -- as the full Word of God; so, do you think we should just delete all of the Old Testament and the rest of the New Testament from the Bible?

And, I understand that you, being a highly educated man of the cloth -- do not recognize the Epistles; but, can you humor me just a wee bit and tell us what the Day Of The Lord in the following passage means:

1 Thessalonians, 5:1-3, 9, "Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. . . For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

You see, Neal, we who are less fortunate than you in wisdom, still read and believe the other books of the New Testament. We foolishly still believe them to be an integral part of His Written Word, the Bible -- and we place our hope in their being the true Word of God.

So, if you will please explain this passage, we will be ever so grateful.

Thank you and God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

The Day of the Lord is obviously the day Our Lord returns with trumpets and in glory in the clouds to raise the dead and send the living to their final judgment.

You are the silliest apologist I have ever read, it is on par with the Mormen and their parsing of various texts to "prove" that there are multiple gods and a Heavenly Mother. Ludicrous, silly to the Nth degree and repugnant to any true Christian who can clearly read the Bible and not have to turn imagery into literal events.

Furthermore, did I not say "pastoral letters," which are the Epistles? Do you not understand that they were written to individual churches and groups of churches and groups as encouragement and correction from the absent Apostles?

Tell us more about the 6000 year old earth and the giants and Nephilim, the behemoths, and other things that make us go "hmmmm."

I am shocked you cultists do not have a space ship or planet like the Scientologists and Nation of Islam and Mormen. All decent loony cults have them. All you have is a tractor rapture beam!

quote:

Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
The Day of the Lord is obviously the day Our Lord returns with trumpets and in glory in the clouds to raise the dead and send the living to their final judgment.

Hi Neal,

Let me ask you a very serious, very sincere question: You have written a valid response based upon your Post-Tribulation belief that Jesus Christ will return only to close this chapter called the Church Age and immediately send all non-believers to hell and take all believers into eternity with Him. That is the Post-Tribulation belief -- the easiest to disprove Biblically.

Many Christians believe in Mid-Trib and Post-Trib Raptures and many Christians believe in an Amillennial or Post-Millennial return of Jesus Christ. While I do not agree with them, based upon my understanding of the Bible; I do not denigrate them for their beliefs.

Nonetheless, that is your belief and you have stated that clearly. I respect that.

But, why must you ALWAYS write ten words of well stated thinking -- and then always revert to ten thousand words of insults and attacks toward everyone? Neal, are you so miserable, so unhappy, that you MUST attack everyone with whom you communicate? I have seen your writing where you post, "This is just the way I am!" Why? If you love God -- and you know that God loves you; why insist upon being so miserable with yourself -- and so nasty to everyone around you?

As I have told you many times, I see you as an intelligent person; one with whom we could have very productive dialogues -- but, you destroy this by insisting upon insulting everyone. Why?

Why not allow us to be Friends?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi GB,

You are confusing the Day of the Lord with the Rapture. True, the Day of the Lord will not happen until the apostasy and until the Antichrist is revealed. However, the Day of The Lord is speaking of the Tribulation, the wrath which is to come upon the world -- and not the Rapture.

The passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 only speaks of the Day of the Lord and does not mention the Rapture at all.

And, with 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 -- you stopped short. For, in verse 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11, we read, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing."

We are not destined for the wrath. What wrath? The wrath which God will pour out on the unbelieving world during the Tribulation.

Revelation 3:10 confirms this teaching, "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

That "hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world" -- is the wrath, the Tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

This passage is definitely speaking about the Rapture. And, it tells us to comfort one another with these words. If the Rapture is going to happen half way through the Tribulation as Mid-Trib folks believe, or three fourths way through the Tribulation as the PreWrath folks tell us -- or even at the end of the Tribulation as the Post-Trib followers declare -- how can this be any words of comfort to anyone?

Mid-Tribers tell us that we will suffer 3 1/2 years of God's wrath. PreWrath folks say we will suffer 5 1/4 years of God's wrath. And, Post-Tribers believe we will go through 7 years of God's wrath.

If someone tells me, "You will be just fine. We are only going to amputate one one arm and one leg (3 1/2 years) -- but, don't worry."

Or, if another assures me, "You will be fine. We are only going to amputate both arms and both legs (5 1/4 years) -- but, not to worry. Everything will be just fine."

Then, there is the guy who tells us, "Not to worry. We will amputate both arms, both legs, your head -- and cut out your heart (7 years) -- but, you will be just fine."

Sorry, my Friend, but, I cannot see ANY COMFORT in any of those alternatives. None of those would comfort me.

Yet, we are told, "Therefore comfort one another with these words." What words? The promise that the Lord is going to come back in the air, in the clouds -- and take out, gather out, snatch out, RAPTURE His church out of the hour of testing, out of the wrath. Those are the only words in which I can find comfort. I find no comfort whatsoever in living through 3 1/2 years, 5 1/4 years, or 7 years of God's wrath which He has determined on a sinful world.

That, my Friend, is the Scriptural assurance, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, which allows me to sleep well at night.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

No, I'm not confusing the Day of the Lord with the Rapture. The Rapture, as you said, will occur before the day of the Lord. Where you are confused is by assuming that the Tribulations, that will occur before the Day of the Lord, are a part of the Day of the Lord and God's Judgement. They are not. If so then show me where in Scripture that Revelation 6: 1-17 is God's Wrath? For one God's wrath begins in Revelation 8:

Revelation 8:1-5 (NIV)
1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.
4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand.
5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

Note that God uses His messenger's Angels to deliver His wrath, this was not the case in Revelation 6 where the events, the tribulations mankind will suffer are of mankind's doing (not God's as with the Day of the Lord that begins in Revelation 8. The Church, and the saved of God will go through the first 6 seals of Revelation chapter 6 as foretold by Christ, Himself, in answering the disciples questions about how the end times will play out told in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:21-28 (NIV)
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.
22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.
24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.
25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

The Rapture is the cutting short of this time for God's elects sake, and occurs just before the Wrath of God is unleashed (The Day of the Lord).

Matthew 24:29 (NIV)
29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

Revelation 6:12-14 (NIV)
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

the above two passages reference the SAME Event, Prior to the Rapture (not after, the Church IS present),

Christ further tells His disciples:
**********
Matthew 24:30-31 (NIV) 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. now read ---> 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (NIV) 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
************

How can you confuse these two events or Scripture passages referring to the SAME event, the Rapture which occurs just when Christ said it would, PRE-GODs-WRATH, prior to God's wrath (Revelation 8) .. the Rapture occurs as Christ said in Matthew 24 and as SEEN and WITNESSED by John, in Heaven and recorded in Revelation 7:9 (The Rapture)
Revelation 7:9 (NIV)
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

&

Revelation 7:13-14 (NIV) (Those Raptured seen at once in Heaven)
13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


You say " Bill Gray replies "The passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 only speaks of the Day of the Lord and does not mention the Rapture at all."

YET look at 2 Thessalonians 2:1
2 Thessalonians 2:1 (NIV)
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

That's clear enough to understand .. Coming of our Lord Jesus (He's coming to Rapture his Church or as is pointed out many times the Bible doesn't use the word Rapture but "GATHERED to him" is just that.

Are you saying there will be 2 Raptures? I don't think so. What 2 Thessalonians is talking about is the Day of the Lord but verse 1 of Chapter 2 is talking about the Rapture whereby the Saints of God are "gathered to Christ" "Caught up" with Christ and protected from the coming Day of the Lord. The Thessalonians thought that and were being taught and lead to believe they missed it, that the Rapture had already occurred and that now they faced the Day of the Lord's Judgement which was contrary to what they were being taught. There is nothing inconsistent about a PRE-(God's) Wrath Rapture timing. What is inconsistent and wrong is leading the Church and other Christians that they will be Raptured out, if we are here during that time, during the first six seals of Revelation and that Tribulation period.

You also are misunderstanding "The Tribulation" and confusing what is God's wrath and doing verses what will come about due to actions of the AntiChrist which will be Great Tribulation upon the Church and Christians that are alive at that time. You are assuming (wrongly, without scriptural justification) that the first six seals as foretold in Revelation 6 are God's Wrath necessitating a Rapture before this time which if you FORCE it, make it have to happen as pre-tribulationist do then the only place you could possibly find to put it would be Revelation 4:1 where John is told by Christ to "come up here".

Revelation 4:1 (NIV)
1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

John sees a door open, where in any Rapture passage do you see a door foretold a door being open? The voice was speaking to him "like a trumpet" .. like can't be taken as a figurative trumpet as told in Matthew 24:31. People who FORCE Revelation 4:1 to be the Rapture are not only taking scripture out of context but are not taking Scripture literally where it is meant to be taken literally. Pre-Tribulation is simply WRONG and not scriptural. A Rapture prior to the Wrath of God IS correct but Prior to Revelation 6 is wrong.

Look also at Chapters 4 & 5 of Revelation. John is in Heaven and much detail is provided but one thing is left out? The Church, the Raptured Saints of God. If they were just Raptured (in 4:1) then where are they? Why doesn't John acknowledge them? It's because the Rapture doesn't occur till Chapter 7 and oops, therefore the Pre-Tribulation Rapture you believe in and buy into it can't occur. The Church does go through Tribulation caused by man and brought about by the Antichrist and the Beast and those Saints alive at that time will have to hold firm or as the instructions to each of the 7 Churches of Revelation says "Overcome".

The "Comfort" that you cite so often is for the Church and believers but the comfort is that we will be protected from GOD'S WRATH not from hard times and not from tribulations brought on by man and Great Tribulation brought on account of the Antichrist.

You pull one verse here and one verse there and apply it to the Rapture but fail to see plain and literal passages directly speaking to the Rapture, to God's protection of His Church and Saints before the Day of the Lord (Revelation 8) where God's messenger's (Angels) will bring about His Wrath (Trumpet & Bowl Judgements) upon the world.


Again I ask Bill, IF there is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture where does Christ specifically teach His Disciples of it so they will go teach others? Christ plainly teaches a "prior to God's Wrath" Rapture in Matthew 24:31. Where is the scriptural evidence and proof of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

Hi GB,

The entire seven year Tribulation is God's period of refining the remnant of Israel; thus, it is the Day of the Lord -- the time of Jacob's Trouble. Yes, there is the first 3 1/2 years in which most of the trials are caused more by man, the Antichrist -- and there is the second half, called the Great Tribulation in which God pours out His wrath upon the world.

But, all seven years are called the Tribulation and, to most theologians, represent the Day of the Lord.

None of the seven year Tribulation will be pleasant. The world will be going through a great testing. And, Jesus Christ tells us that believers will not go through the testing.

But, if you want to believe in the Pre-Wrath Rapture -- no problem. We both will know the truth on the way up.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

I insult only those deserving of it. It is not even "insult" per se, it is reducing your lunacy to the lowest common denominator. The Church is being "tribulated" now. It always has been, sometimes in great formal degrees, in other ways, by the adoption of heresy that claims to be orthodoxy. Your lot fall into the former category, in my eyes. I have a great deal of time on my hands at present to study and to read and to analyze, not merely parrot some "preacher" or "prophet" or editor of a news sheet or blog or website.

To believe that one must concentrate on such things as literal 6000 year old earths, a magic salvation prayer that saves one forever and ever and ignoring the apostolic and Direct Word of the Lord about our duties as Christians is sickening. Why do you lot never, ever, write about the Sermon on the Mount or turning the other cheek? Why all the emphasis on earthly Republic of Israel as being the sine non qua of untouchability, when it is merely another state created by the UN. The State of Israel is not the Mystical Children of Abraham. They are everywhere.

The Kingdom of God is within us, not in a small part of Greater Syria between Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and the Sinai.

The adopted children of God are present as a royal priesthood at every Christian meeting and sacrament. We are both brother and sister of the Lord Jesus through faith and by this, members of the tribe of Judah but with the powers of the Levites and Priests. Our Lord was the last sacrifice where he was both victim and priest.

Our circumcisions are of the heart. Our purity laws are lifted when it comes to food and touching dead bodies, etc. We have a stronger law, that of the eternal Word and it is not written in a code, it is based on love thy neighbor as thyself and the Lord with all thy heart and soul and strength.


We do not need to turn time periods of weeks into years by some miracle process to understand the novels that are attributed to Daniel, all of which lead to the second savior, the Persian Emperor.

You lot read on the surface and then try to make a unified eschatology theory out of all but thin air and call it essential. I call it the height of hubris and uselessness.

Who are you to claim that your time frames are the only correct ones? Who are you to dare to claim that hidden (veiled) prophecy is open for you alone to determine the true meaning and demand it be taught and agreed?

Hi Neal/Aude,

As you said, "That is just the way you are" -- always contentious, never willing to carry a civil dialogue. With you it is NASTY or NOTHING!

So be it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bull

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi GB,

The entire seven year Tribulation is God's period of refining the remnant of Israel; thus, it is the Day of the Lord -- the time of Jacob's Trouble. Yes, there is the first 3 1/2 years in which most of the trials are caused more by man, the Antichrist -- and there is the second half, called the Great Tribulation in which God pours out His wrath upon the world.

But, all seven years are called the Tribulation and, to most theologians, represent the Day of the Lord.

None of the seven year Tribulation will be pleasant. The world will be going through a great testing. And, Jesus Christ tells us that believers will not go through the testing.

But, if you want to believe in the Pre-Wrath Rapture -- no problem. We both will know the truth on the way up.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill, you and I threw this back over and over on other post just as in this one and yes we both will accept our views and choose to disagree. My point in resurrecting this whole discussion is when you equated the subject of Rapture Timing, not the Rapture but rapture timing and equated it as Dogma created a need that I had to address . My point of correction or disagreement (whichever you choose) was to say Pre-Tribulationism is not dogma but rather a doctrinal issue and subject to interpretation and not one of the pillars of faith that folks of our denomination, that we hang our hat on so to say. That was my main disagreement and point however you then came back and reiterated it as Dogma so I just jumped into the theological discussion again. I have seen books by both Rosenthal and the other person you mentioned but they, by no means, caused me to accept my personal position on the timing of the Rapture. Yes they started me thinking but it was prayerful, lengthy, reading of the scriptures and looking at them together that brought me to this point where I am very comfortable with the way I'm reading it. I'd love to be wrong, that is if I'm alive during that time of tribulation for it will be horrible for those alive on earth so I'd love to be wrong and you be right but I just don't believe Scripture presents it that way. Either way it effects not whether you nor I am saved and Justified in God's eyes therefore again not dogma but doctrinal differences.

You mention the entire seven year period as God's Refining time but again where in scripture leads you to believe that Revelation 6 (part of the tribulation period) is God's Judgement? Christians are constantly refined by fire, the fires of temptation and other various trials. One look at the letters to the Seven Churches show that all seven are encouraged to "overcome". Just what would or should they be ready to "overcome".

Note also Bill, as you said it is a refining time for the "remnant of Israel" and therefore they will undergo the worst of the worst and also note that it is in the first part of Revelation chapter 7 that this Remnant is marked out and right after that the Rapture of the Saints and the Church, the dead in Christ first followed by those that are alive.

Not to belittle the point either but you still did not answer my last question to you, after my scriptural rebuttal. Therefore I will again ask the same question by cut and pasting it below in blue.

"Again I ask Bill, IF there is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture where does Christ specifically teach His Disciples of it so they will go teach others? Christ plainly teaches a "prior to God's Wrath" Rapture in Matthew 24:31. Where is the scriptural evidence and proof of the Pre-Tribulation "


You see Bill I know you have the tools and ability to see and know this and I feel, honestly feel that if you sincerely pray and ask for guidance that God will give you peace about this and you will see the scriptures I have cited, the Olivet Discourse coupled with the others scripturally show that the Rapture doesn't occur in Revelation 4:1 but in Revelation 7:9 and that the Church will have to endure part of the seven years you are calling the Tribulation period, more specifically the first six seals. We are not in disagreement about the Rapture nor about the Day of the Lord but we are disagreeing about the timing of the Rapture and whether or not the first six seals encompass God's Judgement. Contrast the Old Testament Prophecies about the Day of the Lord, about the abomination that causes desolation, when that occurs, what happens and compare that to the Olivet Discourse and Revelation chapter 6 and they all tie in and support each other.

quote:

As you said, "That is just the way you are" -- always contentious, never willing to carry a civil dialogue. With you it is NASTY or NOTHING!

Can't blame a guy for calling it like he sees it.
Personally, the openness and honesty is more palatable than the undercuts and sarcasm...

Hi GB,

First, I do not recall ever labeling the Rapture as dogma; I have said that it is my doctrinal belief. And, I base that upon Scripture.

Personally, I do not believe in dogmas. I believe there are Essential Biblical Christian Doctrines which are necessary for anyone or any church to be called Christian.

The Essential Christian Doctrines are:

That the Bible, consisting of the books of the Old Testament and the New Testament, is the Written Word of God; is a supernaturally inspired revelation from God; and is His full plan for mankind and His full revelation to mankind.

That the Bible is without error in its moral and spiritual teaching and in its record of historical facts.

In one God, eternally existing and manifesting Himself in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

In the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, who before His incarnation, existed in the form of God and of His own choice lay aside His divine glory and became a man in every aspect, possessed of all the human characteristics of man. He was and is fully God and fully man.

That our Lord Jesus Christ was supernaturally conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin, Mary; died on the cross for our sin; rose from the dead on the third day; and sits at the right hand of God the Father as the ONLY mediator between us and the Father.

That by His death on the cross, our Lord Jesus Christ, who was sinless, made a perfect atonement for our sin; that through His death on the cross the wrath of God against sinful man was appeased; and that His death on the cross provided grace for sinful man, which is why Jesus Christ is the ONLY path through which man can, of his own free will, have eternal life with God.

That through His resurrection on the third day, our Lord Jesus Christ defeated death, once and for all, and made redemption available to ALL who believe in Him as Lord and Savior.

That the Holy Spirit is God and is a person possessed of all the divine attributes of God. And, there are other doctrines which I firmly believe; but, a person can disagree of portions of these and still be Christian:

And, there are other doctrines which I firmly believe; but, a person disagreeing on some of these doctrines, or portions of a particular doctrine -- can still be a Christian believer.

These Non-Essential Doctrines, i.e., doctrines which do not affect a person's salvation are:

That all who receive Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior become children of God, joint heirs with Jesus Christ, have His promise of eternal life, and will never lose their salvation.

That the Holy Spirit indwells and seals all born-again believers at the time of their conversion and that this is a once-for-eternity event. We should be seeking filling (empowering) of the Holy Spirit daily, hourly, continually -- through prayer, Bible study, and Christian fellowship.

That heaven and hell are real places and these are the ONLY two choices man has for his eternal home. Your choice must be made before this life is finished. There is no second chance after leaving this life.

That everyone will face judgment before Jesus Christ. The believer to a judgment of eternal rewards; the non-believer to a judgment of eternal punishment in hell, the lake of fire.

In a Pretribulation Rapture of the church, His body of believers worldwide.

In a Premillennial Second Coming of Jesus Christ, at the end of the seven year Tribulation, to establish His Millennial Kingdom, the Kingdom of God on earth. For one thousand years He will rule the world, the perfect Theocracy, from the throne of David in Jerusalem.

These are all doctrinal beliefs based upon the teachings of the Bible; but, I do not consider them dogmas.

GB, you insist that a person is to find peace in God; then tell us that all believers will go through 5 1/4 years of the 7 year Tribulation. How could anyone find peace in knowing that, regardless of the fact that you are a Christian believer -- you still have to suffer the same wrath as the non-believer? What kind of peace is that?

That is somewhat like telling a believer, "Yes, you are saved and God loves you; BUT, you are still going to hell for 5 1/4 years." Does that make sense to anyone?

Yes, I have and have read Marvin Rosenthal's book "PreWrath Rapture," and the same for Robert Van Kampen's book "The Sign" -- and, I disagree with both. And, I believe the Bible disagrees with both. However, as I told you earlier -- a person's salvation is not based upon his belief on the timing of the Rapture. If you want to belief you will suffer 5 1/4 years of the Tribulation; okay, not a problem for me. We will both know the truth on the way up. But, I promise not to say, "I told you so!"

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill, 

I use the word Dogma and you use the word "essential doctrine" .  You said that you do not recall labeling the Rapture as dogma.  Since Dogma (my word for what you refer to as "essential doctrine") and "essential beliefs" equate to the same thing I refer you back to your starting post in this discussion, item #7.

Here is what you put in your last post … Bill stated "Personally, I do not believe in dogmas. I believe there are Essential Biblical Christian Doctrines which are necessary for anyone or any church to be called Christian"  

Bill taking your first post, item #7 listing, in bold print, none the less, that "7. In a Pretribulation Rapture of the church, His body of believers worldwide. "   that, what you said in the first post as Essential Doctrine with what you define Essential Doctrine to mean, says to me that you are saying that IF a person doesn't believe in Pre-tribulationial timing of the Rapture (as you did list it in item 7 of your Essential Doctrines) then they can't be a Christian as you list it as an "Essential Doctrine" .  I mean it's your words so where am I wrong in my understanding of what you said, which was what prompted me to post the third post/reply in this discussion thread where I was disputing you listing Rapture timing as essential.

As I said refer to your lead post in this particular subject or topic that you posted when you started it, refer to item #7, which I addressed in the third post of this discussion thread and just requested that you define in another way, other than "essential doctrine" or dogma which is a requisite for salvation  or being saved, as I read your post.  I stated it was doctrine, or something debatable that many have different views on or are still stumbling to find their belief in that view of Rapture timing. I also stated and understand that many do not even believe in a Rapture at all.   So that's where that came from, maybe you will remember now.   Incidentally if you had of just corrected that rather than dogmatically launch into Pre-tribulation being Scripturally the only interpretation that a "true" Christian would have I would not have rehashed this topic and discussion with all the lengthy post and counter post but in order to defend my belief, my position as just as scriptural, actually the only Scripturally back timing of the Rapture, if you happen to be a believer that believes in the Rapture, many don't, we do therefore our current dialog.

Bill,  

Additionally you continue to refer to the Pre-Tribulation timing as scriptural and I keep asking and asking and repeating the same question that you continue to either forget to answer or avoid all together. I cut and pasted it before and will do it again .. here it is.  

Gary ask, in two different post in this discussion, and continues to await an answer:

"Again I ask Bill, IF there is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture where does Christ specifically teach His Disciples of it so they will go teach others? Christ plainly teaches a "prior to God's Wrath" Rapture in Matthew 24:31. Where is the scriptural evidence and proof of the Pre-Tribulation "

I continue to reflect back to an old Wendy's commercial where Clara Peller would shout " Where's the Beef ".   So where is the confirming, literal, indisputable scripture that backs up the pre-tribulation timing of the Rapture and Christ specific instructions about it?

I have versed and posted my opinion and belief along with scripture references and where Christ spoke of it.  You discount this interpretation however without counter or alternate scriptures in defense of pre-tribulation position.  Also where scripture agrees with scripture and try to keep the verses in context with the passage.  



Bill,   in addition to not answering my question you also stated the following:

----------------
Bill said
"GB, you insist that a person is to find peace in God; then tell us that all believers will go through 5 1/4 years of the 7 year Tribulation. How could anyone find peace in knowing that, regardless of the fact that you are a Christian believer -- you still have to suffer the same wrath as the non-believer? What kind of peace is that? That is somewhat like telling a believer, "Yes, you are saved and God loves you; BUT, you are still going to hell for 5 1/4 years." Does that make sense to anyone? "

-------------------

Bill, I'm not saying you are putting words in my mouth but please, tell me, where in any post of mine did I put anything regarding 5 1/4 years? Where did I put any number of years? When did I say anything, with regard to time, other than state that the Rapture would occur PRIOR to God's Wrath or Prior to the Day of the Lord? The comfort to Christians is not that they won't endure any tribulation but rather that they will not endure the Wrath of God. To prepare the Church for what they will endure under the Antichrist and in those times is responsible and just what the Christ told his Disciples to teach to the early Christians and the Churches, it's the same message echoed to the 7 Churches of Revelations ... to "overcome"  

As I have indicated to you I have read Rosenthal (sorry if I misspelled his name, and have but have not read Van Kampen's book.

In my opinion the BEST book written on the "Pre-Wrath Rapture" timing position was by H.L. Nigro and it is called "Before God's Wrath, The Bible's Answer to the Timing of the Rapture". I am currently reading this book, have not finished by any means but find that it is by far the best of the Pre-Wrath books I have looked at.

****************

Bill, in the first post on page 3 of this discussion thread you printed the following.

Bill said:   "The entire seven year Tribulation is God's period of refining the remnant of Israel; thus, it is the Day of the Lord -- the time of Jacob's Trouble. "

Bill I can't believe you make statements like this and then call pre-tribulation scriptural. consider the following verses about the "Day of the Lord"
----------------------------
Isaiah 13:9-11 (NLT) 9 For see, the day of the LORD is coming— the terrible day of his fury and fierce anger. The land will be made desolate, and all the sinners destroyed with it. 10 The heavens will be black above them; the stars will give no light. The sun will be dark when it rises, and the moon will provide no light. 11 “I, the LORD, will punish the world for its evil and the wicked for their sin. I will crush the arrogance of the proud and humble the pride of the mighty.

and

2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 (NLT) 2 Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us. 3 Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction. 4 He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.

and

Joel 2:31 (NLT) 31 The sun will become dark, and the moon will turn blood red before that great and terrible day of the LORD arrives.

and

Revelation 6:12-17 (NLT) 12 I watched as the Lamb broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became as dark as black cloth, and the moon became as red as blood. 13 Then the stars of the sky fell to the earth like green figs falling from a tree shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky was rolled up like a scroll, and all of the mountains and islands were moved from their places. 15 Then everyone—the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the wealthy, the powerful, and every slave and free person—all hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they cried to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to survive?”
************************

The "Day of the Lord" is when God's Wrath is released upon the World and 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 distinctly, undisputedly, tells that this day of God's Wrath will not be unleashed upon the world UNTIL the Antichrist is revealed and the abomination that causes Desolation which occurs 3 1/2 years into the 7 year period. How can you honestly call, then, the 7 year period the Day of the Lord as you did, which I quoted you above doing?
Consider the following scriptures about the Great Tribulation ….

Matthew 24:15-22 (NLT)
15 “The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about—the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing in the Holy Place.” (Reader, pay attention!)
16 “Then those in Judea must flee to the hills.
17 A person out on the deck of a roof must not go down into the house to pack.
18 A person out in the field must not return even to get a coat.
19 How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing mothers in those days.
20 And pray that your flight will not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
21 For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again.
22 In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones.

This is what is spoken of in Daniel 9:27
Daniel 9:27 (NLT)
27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him.”

Note in Matthew 24 that Christ Himself is saying that this event occurs prior to the cosmic signs outlined by Christ in Matthew 24:29, and that occurs at the opening of the 6th seal and right before the "Day of the Lord" begins.

There is NO scriptural basis for the whole 7 year tribulation period being referred to as "the Day of the Lord" .. NONE and you cannot cite any scriptural evidence of such either ..

You are very dogmatic about the pre-tribulation timing of the rapture being "scriptural" so while you are answering my question that I ask and highlighted way above in red, then also please include your scriptural justification of the complete 7 year "tribulation" period being "the Lords Day" or the "Day of the Lord".

I hate to add additional space to this reply, I've made it lengthy enough but I want to reiterate my question that remains and is being consistently overlooked or ignored. Since the Pre-Trib rapture timing is so evident in Scripture, backed up by Scripture my standing question is still on the board quoted above and again here at the end.

"Again I ask Bill, IF there is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture where does Christ specifically teach His Disciples of it so they will go teach others? Christ plainly teaches a "prior to God's Wrath" Rapture in Matthew 24:31. Where is the scriptural evidence and proof of the Pre-Tribulation "

Hi GB,

You tell me, "Bill taking your first post, item #7 listing, in bold print, none the less, that "7. In a Pretribulation Rapture of the church, His body of believers worldwide. " that, what you said in the first post as Essential Doctrine with what you define Essential Doctrine to mean, says to me that you are saying that IF a person doesn't believe in Pre-tribulationial timing of the Rapture (as you did list it in item 7 of your Essential Doctrines)"

If you will go back and really read my post, you will find that I listed these as the Essential Doctrines:

This is copy/pasted from my original post.

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What are these Essential Doctrines?

1. That the Bible, consisting of the books of the Old Testament and the New Testament, is the Written Word of God; is a supernaturally inspired revelation from God; and is His full plan for mankind and His full revelation to mankind -- and is without error in its moral and spiritual teaching and in its record of historical facts.

3. In one God, eternally existing and manifesting Himself in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

4. In the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, who before His incarnation, existed in the form of God and of His own choice lay aside His divine glory and became a man in every aspect, possessed of all the human characteristics of man. He was and is fully God and fully man. That our Lord Jesus Christ was supernaturally conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin, Mary; died on the cross for our sin; rose from the dead on the third day; and sits at the right hand of God the Father as the ONLY mediator between us and the Father. That by His death on the cross, our Lord Jesus Christ, who was sinless, made a perfect atonement for our sin; that through His death on the cross the wrath of God against sinful man was appeased; and that His death on the cross provided grace for sinful man, which is why Jesus Christ is the ONLY path through which man can, of his own free will, have eternal life with God. That through His resurrection on the third day, our Lord Jesus Christ defeated death, once and for all, and made redemption available to ALL who believe in Him as Lord and Savior.

4. That the Holy Spirit is God and is a person possessed of all the divine attributes of God. All who receive Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior become children of God, joint heirs with Jesus Christ, have His promise of eternal life, and will never lose their salvation. That the Holy Spirit indwells and seals all born-again believers at the time of their conversion and that this is a once-for-eternity event. We should be seeking filling (empowering) of the Holy Spirit daily, hourly, continually -- through prayer, Bible study, and Christian fellowship.

Those are the Essential Christian Doctrines. Any person or church which denies any of these doctrines -- is NOT Christian.

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And, then, in my original post, I write:

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Then, there are others which I personally believe and teach:

5. That heaven and hell are real places and these are the ONLY two choices man has for his eternal home. Your choice must be made before this life is finished. There is no second chance after leaving this life.

6. That everyone will face judgment before Jesus Christ. The believer to a judgment of eternal rewards; the non-believer to a judgment of eternal punishment in hell, the lake of fire.

7. In a Pretribulation Rapture of the church, His body of believers worldwide.

8. In a Premillennial Second Coming of Jesus Christ, at the end of the seven year Tribulation, to establish His Millennial Kingdom, the Kingdom of God on earth. For one thousand years He will rule the world, the perfect Theocracy, from the throne of David in Jerusalem.

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You will notice that I do not call these Essential Doctrines; only Doctrines which I believe and teach. These Doctrines do not affect a person's salvation; yet, I firmly believe them to be true.

GB, since, in your hurry to disagree, you so obviously misread my original post -- and believed that I wrote something which I did not write -- do you think there is a possibility that you also have misread the Bible concerning the timing of the Rapture and the Day of the Lord? Just a thought.

Then, you say, "Also I have no idea where you came up with 5 1/4 years for the believers to go through. I NEVER put any timing on it at all but rather stated that the Rapture would occur PRE-God's Wrath or before God's Wrath starts which I believe to be with the seventh seal in Revelation 8."

If you will go back and read Marvin Rosenthal's and Robert Van Kampen's book on the PreWrath Rapture -- they show it as happening at the 5 1/4 year point -- and these two are considered the "experts" on PreWrath Rapture. Actually they show it as happening in the middle of the last 3 1/2 year period -- which would make it at the 5 1/4 year point.

So, no, you did not say 5 1/4 year -- but, when you swear by a PreWrath Rapture -- by default, this is what you are saying.

Next, you write:

Bill, in the first post on page 3 of this discussion thread you printed the following.

Bill said: "The entire seven year Tribulation is God's period of refining the remnant of Israel; thus, it is the Day of the Lord -- the time of Jacob's Trouble."

Bill I can't believe you make statements like this and then call pre-tribulation scriptural. consider the following verses about the "Day of the Lord"

And, then you quote a lot of Scripture. However, all the Scripture you quote supports a PreTrib Rapture. 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4, (NLT), "Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us. 3 Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed -- the one who brings destruction. 4 He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God."

What day will not come? The Day of the Lord. When will this happen? When the Antichrist is revealed. When will the Antichrist be revealed?

The return of the Lord to Rapture His church is imminent, meaning that no one can know the time -- yet we can recognize signs of the time -- one of which is the nation of Israel which occurred in 1948. After the Rapture occurs, when Christ returns in the clouds to claim His church -- in a short time, maybe days, maybe weeks, maybe months -- but, shortly after the Rapture, the Antichrist, a charismatic political leader, will quickly rise to power.

The things he will accomplish will seem almost miraculous, i.e, a peace accord between Israel and her Arab neighbors, a rebuilding of the temple and a resuming of temple worship, etc. This will happen very quickly and the Antichrist will sign a Peace Accord with the nation Israel. The signing of this Peace Accord with Israel -- is the event which starts the Tribulation clock ticking. For that is the revealing of the Antichrist. At the end of the seven year Tribulation, Jesus Christ will return to earth -- His Second Coming.

In the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation, there will be apparent peace -- although many wicked, evil things will be happening and he, the Antichrist, will be turning against Israel. At the midpoint, 3 1/2 years -- the Antichrist will be mortally wounded by a head wound -- but will resurrect. It is my belief that this resurrection is accomplished by Satan actually possessing the body of the Antichrist. Up to that point, Satan had controlled the Antichrist. Then, at his resurrection, the Antichrist will be Satan. This is when he will enter the temple, sit on the throne, and declare himself to be God.

And, this all fits well with the Scripture passages you quote.

GB, there is no reason for us to keep debating this issue. You believe in a PreWrath Rapture which I believe is not Scriptural. I believe in a PreTrib Rapture which I believe to be Scriptural. Do our beliefs affect our salvation? Not in the least. So, this is one of those areas where we can agree to disagree -- and move on. There is no sense boring our Forum Friends by dragging this on and on, ad infinitum.

If anyone has any further questions on the End Times events, we can happily discuss them in another discussion. But, for now, let's give it a rest and find areas of agreement -- such as, Jesus Is Lord! Amen!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Fair enough Bill, I came to the conclusion about item 7 being necessary due to one it's context with other points (except 8) that we both agree are essential faith points and there are many, in our denomination, that do believe all are essential for salvation as well as many others that's just a part of different people's beliefs. Second I equated your statement in an above post where you stated "Personally, I do not believe in dogmas. I believe there are Essential Biblical Christian Doctrines which are necessary for anyone or any church to be called Christian. " and used that word combination "Essential and Doctrines".. when said "to be called a Christian.

I will though never the less accept your word and trust you don't believe that this particular issue is essential to salvation or being a Christian.

With regard to "scriptural basis" I believe just as much and as diligently as you do that the pre-wrath position is the correct one. Rosenthal's book, which I have read I have many problems with and "The Sign" I haven't read page one in therefore cannot comment on it. None of the reading I did though did I accept 5 1/4 years. I do not think we need figure or attempt to figure out to days when it is but I do feel that signs will precede the time sufficient enough that people can know it is "at hand". Even the parables of the virgins keeping oil in their lamps awaiting the bridegroom say to be alert and ready, the statement of Christ about the fig tree and recognizing seasons. No one knows the hour or time I agree but the order of events I feel Christ plainly laid out in Matthew 24 in answer to his Disciples request. I do believe that in time you will come around to that position for I believe it to be the original apostles position, Christ teaching and position as was taught to the early Church. If you study it prayerfully I do honestly believe in time you will adopt it. The Pre-Trib position gained acceptance only in the 1800's and grew in popularity with Scofield's Bible, that is documented history. It is the prevalent accepted position within the protestant denomination being taught in most of the seminaries that is what is preached and taught and is the only position taught and considered. In time though as more read quality Pre-Wrath material like the book by H.L. Nigro, "Before God's Wrath" (that one I do suggest reading) then I think you will see more and more adopt this view that I very much believe Scripture teaches. Rosenthal while many attribute the Pre-wrath position to only stirred the pot but he has far too many unrelated rabbit trails of no significance as well as being totally off base on several things and his book is also very difficult to follow making many assumptions.

Again we will agree to disagree. (on this one point)

Hi GB,

The reason I say that I do not believe in dogmas, yet do believe in Essential Christian Doctrines -- is that, I see dogmas as being church, i.e., man, issued "do this or else" kind of doctrines -- a form of man-made authority.

While I view Essential Christian Doctrines as those that just flow from Christian study and being Christian.

If I say that I am Anglo-American -- this will mean that I am White and that I am an American citizen. This is not by the authority or mandate of any organization or government. It is just what it is -- my state of being.

The same is true of being a born again Christian. It just naturally flows that I believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, that I believe in the Trinity, that I believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God, and that I believe the Bible to be without error in its moral and spiritual teaching and in its record of historical facts. These things make me a Christian believer -- just as being white and American make me an Anglo-American.

You tell me, "None of the reading I did though did I accept 5 1/4 years. I do not think we need figure or attempt to figure out to days when it is but I do feel that signs will precede the time sufficient enough that people can know it is "at hand."

In the Tribulation period there will be the distinct times: Beginning, being day one, Middle, being at the 3 1/2 year point, and the PreWrath point which Rosenthal tells us is in the period between Middle and the Second Coming of Christ. I do not recall if he states that it is the exact middle of the second half, or if I have heard another say that. But, Rosenthal does show in his charts, page 147, the PreWrath Rapture to be in middle of the second half. That would bring it to approximately the 5 1/4 year point. So, if you accept Rosenthal's teaching of a PreWrath Rapture, by default, you accept the timing of it at approximately the 5 1/4 year point.

But, as I said, just as the method of baptism does not affect our salvation; neither does our belief on the timing of the Rapture. This just make for interesting discussion and, hopefully, will encourage others to get more involved in their own personal Bible study to gain greater knowledge of God's Word -- and to test what we say (Acts 17:11).

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill