THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND COMING

There are many Christians who do not believe in a Rapture, I happen not to be among them.  I very much believe that Scripture, Christ, and the Disciples taught, teach, and indicate that there will be a Rapture coming.  You will also note, or will find out, that of those Christians who do believe the Scriptures and Christ, teach a Rapture that there is differences, of opinion, as to the timing of that Rapture.  

The Rapture is basically a teaching that Christ will come, at the last days, (some believe pre-tribulation as in before the 7 year tribulation begins, others, as myself, believe that the rapture happens during what's called the Tribulation (pre-wrath) or Daniels 70th week, just before God's wrath comes upon the World in final Judgment against the world).   

One passage that many dispute the Rapture, and the timing of the rapture, is Matthew 24 where Christ tells the Disciples of events to come, and of events that will occur in the last days.  Many see Matthew 24:29-30 as Christ describing the Rapture whereas others say this is verses regarding Christ 2nd coming.  

Whatever you choose to accept/believe you should do so based upon what you read in Scriptures and also through Prayer the Holy Spirit will, I believe, give you peace about this teaching IF you are a Christian (meaning have the Holy Spirit as a gift to all believers). Rather than make this reply longer than it needs to be I'll end it here but will post another reply where I will share with you some scriptures that those who believe the Rapture is real and taught, use to justify their belief in the Rapture.   As for the word Rapture though it is not found, itself,  in scriptures.

Bear in mind that it is my opinion that the Scriptures and the Disciples and Christ taught a Rapture which is essentially the "Catching away" of or removal of the saved (Christians) at a point in time during the last days and BEFORE God's Day of Wrath begins.  

Note in my references the words of Christ are in RED whereas the scriptures from other passages are in Green. 

Note that many, on here, and otherwise will give you various opinions and many will provide scriptures to reinforce and justify those opinions so the important thing is, for all believers, to read, study, pray, and be comfortable basing your personal belief upon Scripture and what God reveals unto you.  Rather than me telling you this is the way it is I hope to present, to you and other readers, what I base my belief upon, the verses and teachings and in doing so believe that possibly you will see the same.  Anyone who tells you it's this way, dogmatically, and without any possibility it's something else is telling you that they are right and it's the way that they are telling you because that's what they believe.  I believe in laying out a case, for my own position, and if I present my case sufficiently then maybe the reader will accept it also but at least they know that's what I base my opinion upon and why.

For those that do believe Scripture teaches a Rapture some of the verses are:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (New International Version)
¹³ Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
¹⁴ We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
¹⁵ According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
¹⁶ For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
¹⁸ Therefore encourage each other with these words. 

 Now the above verses are used by both those who do and those who do not believe in a Rapture.  To those who believe in a Rapture it's the promise that God will intervene and bring those, Christians, who have died first followed by those Christians who are alive out of the physical world they are in.  In verse 17, the words "caught up" is essentially where the term Rapture comes from.  These verses though can also be used, just as assuredly to describe and teach a Second Coming and don't have to be associated with a Rapture.  Companion verses that address the same event/thought are found here:

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (New International Version)
⁵⁰ I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
⁵¹ Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--
⁵² in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
⁵³ For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
⁵⁴ When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." 

 The verses in the 2nd passage reinforce the first but can be used to point to a 2nd Coming or to the Rapture depending on what the person/individual believes.  Which is true?  I believe that we have to continue to look at other scriptures that point to the exact same moment, in time, to make our decision about just what it does mean and from that it will clarify whether or not it is the Rapture or the 2nd Coming.  The question is WHERE can we look to find WORDS OF CHRIST, meaning direct teachings of Christ, that relate to this same promised moment in time?  That would be looking to Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse.  In this passage we know that Jesus is talking about the end times/days in response to a question by His Disciples so what He (Christ) relates is certainly leading up to and about the "end days" for mankind.

Matthew 24:3 (New International Version)
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

 The next verses ( vss 4-27 Christ lays out events and happenings that people can look forward to as time progresses toward the end, leading up to it, and how to recognize that it is that time and what to expect to happen, meaning, ordinary life and not to panic when these other (expected) things happen.  The distinguishing points are that certain things are going to happen throughout time and are not specifically tied to the end times but then there will be certain signs that will signify that the end times are coming or area upon us now.  Verses 4-8 are these things.  The signs that precede the end days, He (Christ) starts getting into in verses 9-20.  Here, I believe, begins Christ warning future Christians that dire and hard days will come upon them in and toward the end/last days.  

Christ, in verse 15 points to a defining point a for sure sign that those seeing this event take place are in the last days.  People have always said we believe we are living in the "last days" before Christ comes back.  People who see the events of Verse 15 surely are the Last Days Generation.

Matthew 24:15-16 (New International Version)
¹⁵ "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--
¹⁶ then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 

 Note it is in the following verses that the thought of the Rapture, a Rapture, is valid as a method for God to protect and isolate those (BELIEVERS/CHRISTIANS) from His coming time of Wrath (and Judgment) upon the world.

Matthew 24:21-22 (New International Version)
²¹ For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.
²² If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 

 This shortening of days is God removing His people, His chosen, His Faithful, Christians, from a world that is in exponential distress and decay It is also believed that these very events, foretold here, are also what John is describing and talking about in Revelation 6:1-11.  In other words reading Rev 6:1-11 as being the fulfilling and playing out of Matthew 24:15-26 (same time period is pointed to by both sections).

Now compare the following two scriptures for it is believed (I believe) they are again describing the exact thing, point in time, events:

Matthew 24:29 (New International Version)
"Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

 with

Revelation 6:12-17 (New International Version)
¹² I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
¹³ and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
¹⁴ The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
¹⁵ Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
¹⁶ They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
¹⁷ For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" 

 There will be signs that aren't ordinary but are celestial and miraculous, out of the ordinary in order to signify and verify that what is transpiring is what was prophesied and foretold of

Remember, now, the promises of 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 about the awakening and bringing forth of the Dead, in Christ, and then those Christians alive to meet Christ in the air.  Then read the following:

Matthew 24:30-31 (New International Version)
³⁰ "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
³¹ And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 

compare also to what John sees, in Heaven, in Revelation

 

Revelation 7:9-10 (New International Version)
⁹ After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
¹⁰ And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 

 

 and

Revelation 7:13-14 (New International Version)
¹³ Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
¹⁴ I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

 It is believed, by many, some, ME, that in Matthew 24 (above) Christ is teaching and telling His Disciples of the point in time when Believers/Christians will be brought way from the physical realm of earth, during a very trying and hostile time (Tribulation Period) and at the time these great numbers of Believers (dead first then with those alive) are "caught up"/Raptured John relays all these Saints of God, being seen arriving in Heaven in Rev 7.  All this being the same figurative time period and events.  

Many of the same verses Christians use to support the Rapture can also be used to support the 2nd Coming and many believe there is no teaching as a Rapture.  I believe God chose to Rapture, Catch Away or remove Christians, from the earth, before His/God's WRATH falls and happens as a part of the end times.  I believe Christ teaches and tells the Disciples of this in Matthew 24:30-31 and that those verses are regarding the exact same event that 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 points to.

Consider also, carefully, the Words:

1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 (New International Version)
¹ Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,
² for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
³ While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
⁴ But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
⁵ You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 

 compared to

Matthew 24:36-42 (New International Version)
³⁶ "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
³⁷ As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
³⁸ For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
³⁹ and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
⁴⁰ Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
⁴¹ Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
⁴² "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 

 Note also 1 Thessalonians 5:4, that you, brothers, are NOT IN DARKNESS.  I believe this is said to believers because they will not be caught unawares for Christ told the Disciples, who told the early Christians and churches about just what would happen in the end days (Matthew 24) and how to recognize when it would the that Generation and time (signs as told by Christ in Matthew 24 again). If you read these passages together along with Revelation I don't see how you cannot see a correlation between events and times.  YOU WILL BE TOLD that it isn't so by some and that it plays out another way but whatever you are told always go back to the Scriptures and see if what you are told aggress with what they are saying.  For I believe what you read in Matthew will equal and reinforce what you read in 1 Corinthians and Thessalonians as well as Revelation so the same theme and message continues throughout.

You will also remember that I said even among believers that believe in a Rapture there are disagreements about the TIMING of that Rapture.  There are some (pre-tribulation) who believe that Christ returns for the Church BEFORE (PRE) the Tribulation starts, before the antichrist comes into the world and on the scene.  Those who believe such believe that the Rapture is symbolically indicated to have happened in Revelation 4:1 when John is told "Come up here".  These pre-trig believers also teach and believe that Matthew 24:30-31 is not the Rapture but is the 2nd Coming.  They cannot point to a specific Scripture where CHRIST teaches about the Rapture and they believe that the Church will be removed before the Tribulation period (Daniels 70th week) begins and won't be on earth to experience the Seals of Revelation 6.

I believe in a Pre-Wrath timing of the Rapture.  That the Rapture occurs during the Tribulations and within Daniels 70th week.  That the Church, and believers will go through Revelation 6:1-11 which are not God's Wrath but events that happen account of the anger and acts of the antichrist who is waging war against Christians and Jews during the last days and BEFORE God unleashes His Wrath/Judgment upon the world.   We, those who believe in a Pre-Wrath Rapture believe that the Rapture is observed and told about in Revelation 7:9.  

Remember that the Early Churches had the same concerns about the Rapture and end times as they also didn't know if they were a part of it or if the end times were to come later.  They ask the same questions and Paul addressed and answered many of these concerns especially about feeling that the time had already come.  The Thessalonians worried and feared that they had missed the Rapture and that they had been LEFT BEHIND to which Paul wrote the following in response and to address their concerns:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 (New International Version)
¹ Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
² not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
³ Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
⁴ He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
⁵ Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 

 Note the event and time Paul is referring to here where he points to an event that will happen, with the Antichrist, when the antichrist is finally on the scene and revealed and among us.  compare the words " that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."  with the scriptures from Matthew  Matthew 24:15-16 (New International Version) 

¹⁵ "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- ¹⁶ then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 

I very much believe Paul to be telling the Thessalonians, AS CHRIST TAUGHT HIM, that the Rapture, "our being gathered to him" will not happen until the end times, end days, when and after the abomination of desolation or antichrist setting himself up and declaring himself to be God within the very Temple of Worship.   IF the Rapture is PRE-Trib then the above scriptures make no sense and cannot be.  If the Rapture is Pre-Trib then the Church, believers, brothers, are Raptured out, caught up, gathered together, BEFORE the antichrist comes on the scene and before the desolation of the temple.  For the reasons above and the very Scriptures wording I believe that the timing of the Rapture, out being caught up, our being gathered together with Christ, happens when God determines it to happen, after the antichrist comes on the scene, after he, the antichrist wars against the jews and the Church and believers making it very hard and difficult on us, killing many, persecuting most, (Revelation 6:1-11).  

I believe Christ, Paul, and the Scriptures are there telling is this, warning us (Christians/believers) so that we can and will be ready for it and IF we are in that last generation that we will be prepared for extremely hard times and tribulation and know that we will suffer and not be protected from man's (antichrist) wrath and actions but that we WILL be protected from and removed from GOD's Wrath and Judgment upon the world.

Sorry it's so long and detailed but it is a very intense and complicated subject.  I hope that the above helps you so see at least the justification of my own personal belief, regarding the Rapture and why I believe in a Rapture.  I also believe the 2nd Coming and that Christ actually setting His Feet upon earth, the 2nd time, waging war against those against Him will occur in this Generation that witnesses these other events as well.  The Rapture is not a substitution for the 2nd Coming but a part of it.

The Rapture of the church, the worldwide body of believers -- and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ are totally separate events, separated by a seven year period called the Tribulation.   At the Rapture, Christ will not return to earth; but believers will be "caught up. . . in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."   

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. (16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  (17) Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

This is a very definite statement of the coming, imminent Rapture of the church.  The most accepted view of when this will happen is before the Tribulation begins.

Other views of the Rapture are the Mid-Tribulation, Post Tribulation -- and a very new one that was just invented a few years ago by a couple of men named Marvin Rosenthal and Robert Van Kampen.  This latter one is a Pre-Wrath Rapture.  None of these hold up against Scripture.

Daniel 9:26-27, "Then after the sixty-two weeks (62 X 7 years) the Messiah will be cut off (crucified). . . (27) And he (the prince of this world, Satan) will make a firm covenant with the many (the nation of Israel) for one week (seven years), but in the middle of the week (3 1/2 years) he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

This is Daniels prophecy of the time of Israel during the dispensation of Law -- and tells of Christ being crucified.  His death, resurrection, and ascension began the period called the dispensation of Grace, i.e., the church era.

The church era, which is over 2000 years and counting, will end with the Rapture.  Shortly after the Rapture, the nation Israel will make a Peace Covenant with the Antichrist  -- "(27) And he (the prince of this world, Satan) will make a firm covenant with the many (the nation of Israel) for one week (seven years)."  The signing of this Peace Covenant starts the clock running on the seven year Tribulation.

Just prior to the end of the Tribulation, the Wedding Feast of the Lamb will take place (Revelation 19:6-9) where Christ will take the church, the Raptured body of believers, as His Bride.

Then, He will return to earth, His Second Coming, and the Bride (church) will be with Him, along with all the Old Testament saints and the martyred Tribulation saints (Revelation 19:14).

He will judge the survivors of the Tribulation (Sheep and Goat Judgment - Matthew 25:31-46).  The non-believers going into hell; the believers going into His Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies.

At the end of His 1000 year Millennial Kingdom on earth -- all non-believers will be resurrected into their immortal bodies and will be judged, the Great White Throne -- before being sent into eternal hell.

Then, the New Heaven, the New Earth, the New Jerusalem -- and all believers will go into eternity, to be with Jesus Christ, God, forever.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

______________________________

A #6 of a #5.  You could have helped Dory with the shopping in the time you would have saved.

One additional clarification, I would like to make Slice.  As I mentioned even Christians who believe a Rapture will often disagree on it's timing.  Bill, above, who believes in a Pre-Trib rapture makes a few statements in error, or at least that is my assertion and belief.

First of all those who advocate, what is called the pre-Wrath timing position, would argue that it isn't a new belief but one that has existed from the time of Christ and is what Christ taught in Matthew 24, to his disciples of which Paul relayed very clearly  unto the Thessalonians in 2 Thessalonians 2, as I quoted in my prior reply where he said that the "gathering of us together with Christ" would not happen until after the rebellion occurs, the antichrist comes on the scene, AND the desolation of the temple happens.  That's pretty easy to understand Scripture.  Now  (again) look at and consider Matthew 24:15, again the desolation of the Temple.  The SAME event as referenced by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 AND the Old Testament Scripture that Bill replied with:

Daniel 9:27 (New International Version)
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him".

 Pretty clear scripture that the DESOLATION spoken of, prophesied and foretold in Daniel 9:27 is the SAME as Christ mentioned, and taught, in Matthew 24:15 and Paul clearly revealed unto the people who thought they had been left behind that this Desolation and the antichrist has to come first before the Gathering together (Rapture) in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4.  

Taken alone, by themselves, I think anyone can see and understand that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 & 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 could refer to the 2nd Coming.  I posted the scriptures I did and referenced Matthew 24 and set up the timeline so as to indicate that the teachings were actually about the Rapture and not the 2nd Coming and that as predicted and foretold, in Scripture, laid out above, that this gathering, catching up, Rapture occurs after the Desolation which Daniel clearly indicates happens in the Middle of the 70th Week, (70th Week also called the Tribulation week or just Tribulation).  

Bill and other pre-tribulationist say their timing is scriptural but fall very short of providing the actual clear scripture to prove this.  They also say the Pre-wrath position is not scriptural but I suggest the scriptures (all of them) point to just that, a Rapture BEFORE God's Wrath occurs but certainly within the 7 Year Tribulation years.  Bill can say, one hundred times, that it isn't so but just read the scriptures, there isn't any mystery there.

Also IF you are to believe and accept that the Rapture, catching up, or Gathering together with Christ occurs prior to the Tribulation period beginning, prior to when the Antichrist comes on the scene and battles against the Jews and Christians then you have to also make a few assumptions or accept a few facts (that plainly are not there).

• First you have to accept that Revelation 4:1 (before the Tribulation) is where the actual Rapture occurs but then you have to say and accept that it's symbolic rather than literal because clearly Rev 4:1 says Come up here to JOHN alone so they have to assume John is symbolic of the entire Church and body of Christ (Christians).
• You also have to accept that Christ NEVER talked and taught about the Rapture in recorded Scriptures or during his recorded sermons for the one and best place that he would have talked about it would have been the Olivet Discourse where He answered His disciples inquiry as to how would they know when the end times come and how could they recognize it.  I can't conceive of the most important thing that the New Testament Church has to look forward to not being elaborated on and taught by Christ yet IF you accept the pre-trig position then you have to accept that Christ didn't talk about the Rapture when He laid out, to the Disciples in Matthew 24, the end times events and what would happen.  
• Advocates of the Pre-Wrath position believe Christ lays out very precise information and clearly says in Matthew 24:30-31 that believers (the Elect) are gathered (vs 31) but because this scenario doesn't fit the pre-tribulation story and byline they change the meaning of this scripture and say it is referring to the 2nd Coming.  Never mind that it meets the description exactly as predicted in 1 Thessalonians 4 it doesn't match their narrative, or other scriptures, so you have to assume it's something that I believe it isn't.
• Pre-Trib believers have to believe that Revelation 6:1-11 is the Wrath of God whereas those who believe that the rapture occurs prior to God's actual wrath and judgment believe and state that Revelation 6:1-11 is prophecy or recorded information about what will transpire as the Antichrist wages war and vengeance against God's Chosen people (the Jews) and turns on the Christian believers.  God then protects those groups, from His (God's) wrath in Revelation 7.  First protect and seal the Jews (Rev 7:1-8) then protect the Christian believers, via the Rapture (Revelation 7:9)

As I said you will hear a very good sales pitch made by many trying to sell you on a story or version that they, themselves, bought into.  My suggestion is to READ, STUDY, PRAY yourself and see what you believe the Scriptures are saying.  See what you get peace about.  I posted what I did to explain why I believe as I do, why I believe not only that the pre-Wrath position IS the only scriptural one but that TAKEN ALL TOGETHER, ALL Scriptures answer and attest together (agree) on the exact same thing.   Unfortunately, for Bill, that is NOT that Christians and the Church are Raptured out before the Tribulation week (7 year period) begins.  Christians and the Church, that find themselves in that Generation that will live though this period need to prepare themselves mentally and spiritually to live through and endure this time.  

Read Revelation chapters 2 & 3 and you will see that ENDURE is the central message to ALL the Churches that will go through this period.

Slice, if you are a Christian then God's Holy Spirit, I pray, will make this clear and reveal it unto you if you ask and seek that.  If you are not a Christian a lot of this might seem to not make sense or seem strange but I hope and pray you will consider that God does look out for HIS own and takes care of His people.

I am not saying believe it because this is what i believe and I'm right.  I'm saying this is what I believe and why I believe it and I want you to read, study, research it yourself using the scriptures and see if you agree.  Thanks for the inquiry.

Hi all,

Maybe these End Times Charts will help clear up some issues about what will happen and when.  I began seriously studying the End Times prophecies about 22 years ago (1991) -- and about ten years ago I began to create these charts.  Over the years following, as I have gained more insight, the charts have evolved (forgive the pun).  What I present today I believe to be Biblically accurate.  You will notice that i do give Scripture references.

I pray these are helpful.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Let me address the issue of the Rapture being in the Bible.  This is from a post I wrote to a Forum Friend in 2011:

RAPTURE IN THE BIBLE?   Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011

You tell me, "I'm saying, take the straightforward words of Christ, and forget all that other obfuscation.  Where is the word 'rapture' found in the Bible?   It is a concept manufactured by modern fiction writers.  It's on the same level as the Da Vinci Code."

Not a problem.  Many people believe what others have told them is true -- but, cannot prove their own belief from the Bible.  So, in that, my Friend, you are not alone.  But, one word of warning -- not all pastors have well grounded theologies based upon the full Bible either.  Pastors, like all folks, are human and prone to error and misinterpretation.  So, the best advice I can give is to do as the apostle Paul suggests in Acts 17:11 and test all teachings against Scripture.

Do we find the Rapture in the Bible?  Yes, both the word and the concept.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.  Therefore comfort one another with these words."

The Greek word for "caught up" is "harpazo."   In 405 AD, when Jerome was translated the Bible into Latin, the Greek word "harpazo" was translated to the Latin word "rapiemur."   And, from the Latin word "rapiemur" we get our English word -- rapture.

So, as you can see from this Scripture passage, and others, the concept of the Rapture is clearly taught in the Bible.

And, how can we "comfort one another with these words" -- if these words, this writing, is not true?

You declare, "It is a concept manufactured by modern fiction writers."

No, as you can see, the Rapture is clearly found in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 -- which the apostle Paul wrote and taught somewhere around 50 AD.   So, I would not say that the Rapture is from modern writers, fiction writers or otherwise.

Once again, my Friend, I will ask you.  What are your beliefs about the End Times?  Since you do not believe in a PreTrib/PreMillennial scenario -- which do you believe -- MidTrib, PostTrib, Amillennialism, etc.? 

Being a Christian, we all must believe something about the End Times -- even though our salvation is not, in any way, based upon that belief.  We do know that God will one day end this world and create a New World, New Heaven, and New Jerusalem.  What do you believe about this and when it will happen?

Slice, I pray that this is helpful.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

So, Slice, I am curious as to have we have answered your question sufficiently, that you initially ask?  You or for that matter or anyone else that has chosen to read this topic/thread, if you have any additional questions or comments about any aspect of the end times for admittingly there are various interpretations regarding it and although you have not indicated if you have a specific thought or position regarding it yourself.

Also if someone else/new wishes to introduce or inject yet another view I'd love to welcome them and have them present their basis and justification for their own beliefs, their own views and opinion for each of us should be willing and able to respectfully present our position as well as defend it.

Now I have a few questions for you Bill:   reference the below passage in NKJV

Revelation 4:1-3 (New King James Version)
¹ After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."
² Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.
³ And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. 

 

 

The following questions deal with the above passage (Revelation 4:1) and Pre-Tribulationist view that it is representative of the Rapture, of the Church.

1. You claim, in your charts, as Pre-Tribulationist (of which I used to adhere to) state that Revelation 4:1 is "representative" of the Rapture.  Why does the Rapture have to be addressed symbolically or figuratively rather than the literal event?  I mean Revelation chronicles many end time events, that are to happen, and while some  symbolism is used account that symbols and actual observances, by John, are most likely of things that don't exist in his time, such as helicopters or other vehicles that he may be seeing and thus has to use whatever symbolism he has to draw upon to describe what he is seeing.  The appearance of the Church and that great number of people is not something that could not be visually described.  Why, in your opinion, could Revelation 7:9-14 not be John's observation of a Raptured Church being brought into Heaven?
2. Do you also agree that in order to represent this passage (Rev 4:1), as the Rapture, you have to take it symbolically rather than literally?  I mean John is literally being called up to Heaven and it's happening to John but applying the rapture interpretation is a figurative one and if so why is the Rapture only symbolically represented and not shown as the actual, literal Event?
3. What basis do you claim that John (the writer) is representative of the whole Church (past & Current Christians) and IF the Rapture is represented in Revelation 4:1 then are you, and other Pre-Trib folks saying that the Church and dead in Christ are raptured in spirit rather than body or is it a bodily rapture because verse 2 plainly says Immediately I was in the SPIRIT.  Does the symbolism abruptly stop here?
4. Also how do you reconcile that according to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 that Christ meets the Church and past Saints in the clouds yet in verse 2 of Revelation 4:1-2 it clearly states that John (if figurative of the whole Church) is in HEAVEN, in fact before the throne, immediately and not in the clouds.
5. Another discrepancy is with the trumpet  call.  In 1 Cor 15:52 it is a literal trumpet yet in Revelation 4 it's a voice like a trumpet.   Which is it really, according to Scripture?

Now regarding the Rapture as the Churches "Blessed Hope", literally one of if not the most important event in the Churches, and all Christians future.

1. Why would such an important, if not the most important, event regarding the New Testament Church not be covered by Jesus Christ himself in any of His recorded sermons?  WE have documented, in the Gospels, various teachings and sermons of Christ during His earthly ministry yet WHERE IS THE RAPTURE specifically taught by Christ (scripture/book, chapter, verse reference)?

Regarding Paul's letter to the Thessalonians as copied/pasted here:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 (New International Version)
¹ Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
² not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
³ Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
⁴ He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
⁵ Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 

1. Just what do you see the "gathering together to him" in vs 1 (verse one) being?  The Rapture, the Second Coming, and do you also not see the event referred to, by Paul, in verse 4 above being the Abomination that causes Desolation as prophesied in Daniel 9:27?

Your charts may be helpful to you but I've looked over them and frankly there is some liberty taken in applying certain scriptures to the chart.  You, and i, know that any person, can pick and chose and past just about any scripture, out of it's original context, and attempt to make it apply to just about anything.  The key is to keep Scripture within it's original, meaning/context and then to tie various diverse references together that all mean or relate to exactly the same thing.  In other words the events foretold in Daniel 9 should remain true and correlate with scriptures in the New Testament.  While you, and I, use and point to 1 Corinthians 15:50-51 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and say it applies to the Rapture I know other, well versed Christians, who do not believe in the Rapture and say that those very passages refer to the eventual reconciliation of Christ and the Church at the 2nd Coming so it isn't as clear and plain to everyone and therefore a case needs to be made knitting together various scriptures that all point to the same thing/event/concept.

HEY BILL!  Did you notice that I posted a reply under this topic/subject specifically requesting you to answer some of my questions?    When are you planning to get around to answering them as I responded and answered your request to me about John 6?

I also created another subject/topic where I repost the question(s) above, for you, but since I added an additional question about another section there I felt it would only be fair to repost/copy that additional question here, below, so as where ever you choose to reply to, under whichever subject you will have the complete list of questions so ADD the question below to those above.

Add ONE additional question to my request.  As a person who commented upon Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse, that Christ gave you state that Matthew 24:30 & 31 relate and are about the Second Coming.  The verses are below:

Matthew 24:30-31 (New King James Version) 
³⁰ Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 
³¹ And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

What assures you of this?  What basis do you make this claim for I submit that it is not the Second Coming but very plainly mirrors the Scripture found in 1 Thessalonians 4 where Paul speaks about the Rapture.  Explain why you dogmatically associate these verses from Matthew 24 with the Second Coming other than to ( I submit correctly ) associate them with Paul's very detailed and clear description in 1 Thessalonians 4 as pasted below:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (New King James Version) 
¹³ But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 
¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 
¹⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 
¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 
¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 
¹⁸ Therefore comfort one another with these words. 

 

Revelation 7:9-15 (New King James Version)
⁹ After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
¹⁰ and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
¹¹ All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
¹² saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
¹³ Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
¹⁴ And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
¹⁵ Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 

Similarities bolded

I await your relies and Answers

Hi GB,

Glad to oblige.  Take a look in my new discussion titled "Rapture, Second Coming? - What Are They And When Will They Occur?"  You will find a very complete answer there.  Why a new discussion?  Because I wrote it to be shared on Facebook and in my Friends Ministry eNewsletter.

But, not to worry -- your pseudonym, i.e., your phony posting name -- is not disclosed on any of these venues.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Slice,

I trust you are not bamboozled by voluminous verbiage nor nonsensical graphics.

Jesus predicted the End of Days during the lifetimes of his followers.  It has not happened, and we now know that it won't happen for millions or billions of years.

Yet another reason to discount the literal word of the Bible.  It's just that simple.

DF

Hey Slice,

Check out this paper debunking the so called "rapture" theory. I pray God will open your eyes to a theory deceiving many. 

Short excerpt below from first few paragraphs.

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

Exposing The Secret Rapture Theory - A Divisive Theory Deceiving Millions!

Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory

[A Scriptural Refutation]

["That there should be no schism in the Body"]

By: L. Ray Smith

The return of our Creator, Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to this Earth in supernal power, glory, and majesty, to vivify and transform mere mortals into the very sons of God, has got to be among the greatest events in the history of the universe! How much of its inspiration and splendor is sacrificed to theories that would have this grand event occur in stages, or in secrecy, or worse yet, on a gloomy night? I hope and pray that the revealed truth regarding Christ’s one and only second coming will lift and inspire all who meditate on its grandeur.

RAPTURE DOCTRINE CAUSES DIVISION

I believe there is more at stake with regards to the teaching of the rapture than a mere difference of opinion on a theological doctrine. Even among those who accept and believe in the reconciliation, justification, glorification, and salvation of all, it is a divisive doctrine.

Paul instructs us:

"Now I am entreating you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ [sounds to me like he is about to say something rather important], that all may be saying the same thing, and there may be no schisms among you, but you may be attuned to the same mind and to the same opinion" (I Cor. 1:10).

And again:

"... that there may be no schism in the body ..." (I Cor. 12:25).

This also includes,

"... endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit with the tie of peace ..." (Eph. 4:3).

We will see that the rapture theory is in direct conflict with these Scriptures.

gdriggs,  thank you for your reply and approach to the Rapture, welcome to the discussion.  I know you referenced another person's work (Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory by L. Ray Smith) so I'm sure that you base your belief and answer upon his interpretation.

While it would be exhaustive to attempt to address the work that you referenced, with your link, since the overall subject is a question concerning the Rapture and/or the Second Coming.  I will admit that there are scriptures (sometime the same ones) that are used by various groups, backing a various position.  

I'm sure you realize that many scriptures, throughout the Bible, are at times used to make a point, that the person, or group, wanting to make a point or espouse a specific doctrine/teaching yet have no valid application to the actual doctrine that the specific scripture is targeted toward.  Problem is that many of these, well meaning Christians, very often take the scriptures they use from a passage that has no connection or context with their chosen doctrine.  In this specific case L. Ray Smith specifies that the doctrine and teaching of the rapture is in conflict with 1 Corinthians 1:10, 12:35 and  Ephesians 4:3.

The main problem here is that the specific, targeted, teachings and items that Paul is addressing is NOT the teaching of the Rapture but other disagreements from within the Corinthian Church.  I have no problem with you, or Mr. Smith, voicing opposition to the doctrine of a Rapture, that's a process of moving toward Spiritual Maturity, learning about the actual teachings of our Lord, but using one scripture, meant for one context, and applying it as if it was addressing another (which it isn't) is disingenuous and frankly spreads far more division and conflict among Christians, but that is my own opinion.

The point is though, as I have suggested, the three Scripture references you have posted, from Mr. Smith, do not apply to the Rapture either in the context that Paul gave them or in the chapters text.   While I understand that you may disagree I would like, if you do, for you to explain and reveal in those three specific instances, where the Rapture is mentioned, taught, or referenced, by Paul or revealed, within the church, to be the cause of disagreement and thus Paul's response to it?

We can actually discuss the validity of the Rapture and/or Second Coming but until you can agree on a specific Scripture's application (scripture that is cited or used) then the whole discussion and dialog breaks down for you are discussing apples and oranges.  So the challenge/question is to (if you agree with Mr. Smith) to reveal from the associated Scriptures where the Rapture is addressed or meant,  by Paul, as the source of disagreement that he (Paul) is actually addressing in the context of the passages.

If you can not may I suggest that, with regards to trying to debunk the Rapture or address it that alternate and scriptures be used that actually address the topic.   Realize I am aware that the word Rapture doesn't appear in Scripture however it's also true that Jesus Christ was a name that Christ never heard while He was alive and during his earthly ministry so just because an english word, such as Rapture, doesn't appear in the early manuscripts doesn't mean that thought or issue wasn't taught and covered by Christ and the Disciples but that's for another discussion/post.

Thanks for your consideration and reply.

Hi GB,

This man, L. Ray Smith, taught "universal salvation" until his fairly recent death -- that hell does not exist and that all people will go to heaven.  In other words, he taught "Universalism" much the same as the Unitarian Universalist cult church teaches it..

What more needs to be said about his teachings, which GD loves to copy/paste enmasse on the Religion Forum.  Smith's teaching is cult teaching, not Christian. 

Several years ago, GD came to the Religion Forum, under different names, doing the same with the New Age Urantia Book bible -- which its adherents teach were given to a doctor in Chicago in the 1950 -- by extraterrestrials.  GD would copy/paste long passages from the Urantia Book bible; now he does that with L Ray Smith's writings.

I keep hoping that GD will leave the cult and New Age religions behind and give Christianity a try.  But, so far, he has not seemed to want to leave his comfort zone.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

_______________________

#3 - and the UUs are about as far from a cult as you can get.

Crusty, my Friend,

You remind me of a nervous little Chihuahua who follows along behind the German Shepherd, barking and being a nuisance -- while the bigger dog just ignores him.   Are you really that hungry for attention?

Bless your little Chihuahua heart!

Bill

_________________________

This is #8 - based on a false premise

#9 - belittling without adding anything to the topic

#12 - failed analogy.

See how easy that would have been for you?

I don't understand the analogy.  I'm not Mexican, and you obviously are not ignoring me.

Bless your confused, addle-brained, little heart.

As for my reply to gdriggs it was not to make accusations or judgments against him or his chosen religion/faith but rather to try and establish dialog about statements that he/she made regarding indicating that the three scriptures he/she cited was about the Rapture.  There are many different users in the forum and most all disagree on at least one or more issues whether religious or not.  

When you have those type disagreements it is my feeling/belief that it's more positive and profitable to engage in dialog and clarify just what it is that the person, themselves, believes.  It may be different than what I believe in and if so it presents me with an opportunity to share my own opinions and beliefs as well as the basis for those beliefs/positions.  That's just my opinion as to which approach is more beneficial and respectful.  But again that is just my own opinion.

Hi GB,

It has been very clear for a long time what GD believes and pushes -- New Age religions and Universalism.   He has made that abundantly clear in many posts -- as GDriggs and under many other posting names.

If you were having a private dialogue with him -- I agree with your way.  However, when you are having a dialogue with him on the public forum, where many folks read -- with varying degrees of Bible knowledge, from denying the Bible, to being a babe in Christ and His Word, to being mature in their knowledge of God's Word -- you could be misleading some.

When you pat GD on the back and call him a good old boy (figuratively) -- how are others to know if you agree with his erroneous religions -- or disagree with him.   To avoid any misunderstanding and the possibility of misleading someone who does not have a mature knowledge of God's Word -- it is best to make our positions very clear up front, and then discuss differing theologies with people such as GD.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

________

You would have to be Mexican or Filipino for Billy Bob to like you.

Well Bill sounds like you're ready to bring the rope and start the lynchings and rid the forum and nation of these heathen unbelievers and cults.  First of all WHERE in my response did I figuratively pat GD on the back and call him a good old boy?  Umm Where?   

You know Bill, if you really do spend time in God's word and study Jesus Christ ministry you might learn something about interacting with others.  I'd be real interested in knowing if you really believe your own actions, methods, and approach on this forum, with others mirrors the way Christ taught us to do by His own examples?  There were times when Christ was terse with HIs dialog with others but those times were limited to those who were claiming to be religious, with God, representing the Father, and yet doing just the opposite of what God really wanted them to do thereby harming the people they were supposed to watch after and help.   

Christ interactions between Him and those who were lost or who had sinned and come to Him was NEVER Condemning or Judgmental and He was and is the one who is to JUDGE after all yet His words to them were not harsh or condemning but uplifting and respectful meeting their needs and finding understanding. Just as with the Samaritan woman His Loving, caring approach and actions with her was what stirred her curiosity and gave Him opportunity to meet her needs when apparently all she was used to from Jewish leaders was scorn and condemnation and being made feeling that she wasn't good enough.

You may think you are doing good and doing what God/Christ says to do but as I have said for a long long time your approach to people is totally opposite and is more a harm to the cause of Christ and actually giving yourself opportunity to present truth to people.  Until you grasp this you will continue to do harm.   Judge your own self by seeing if God's Holy Sprit's reflection is shining through you and in your very actions as indicated in Galatians 5:22-24.  

Hi GB,

How did Jesus interact with the moneychangers in the temple?  

As you know, there are plenty of admonitions in Scripture about dealing with false teachers and false teachings.  And, none ot them tell us just let it ride.  Matter of fact, Paul tells us in Acts 17:11 to test the teaching and the teacher against Scripture.

If you have bothered to test GD's teachings against Scripture -- you will find a great chasm between them.

But, my liberal Friend, please feel free to embrace any teaching you desire.   But, I think I will stay with Scripture and follows Paul's advice in Acts 17:11.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

gbrk, I'm shocked that you honestly sound surprised when you spoke about the rope, the lynching, Bill’s desire to rid the forum & nation of heathen unbelievers & cults, about Bill spending time in God's word & studying about Jesus Christ ministry & his interaction with others. This is what Bill does, it's his calling, & always has been, but not for God.

Of course, Bill believes in his actions, methods, & approach on this forum. He has been this way from day one even though it’s gotten worse with his NPD & old age. From the things you’ve said, you think Bill is doing bad for Christianity. I’ve said many times that Bill is doing more for Satan than he is for God.

It never cease's to amaze me that there's people on this forum that say they're a Christian, knows what the Bible says (or should) about how a Christian is to act/believe, but they believe Bill Gray to be a Christian. That, in my mind, is lunatic.  

Bill,   We both know how the interchange between Christ and the Moneychangers ended, in the Temple but don't go taking apples and trying to make them oranges.  Do you know, from most accounts, WHY Christ was angry with them and what their sin/offense was to merit that kind of response from Christ.  Here they were in His house, God's temple, Christ Temple at a time where the people, and when, the people were there for the appointed sacrifice for their atonement for that year.  As you know they were required, by scripture, to provide as perfect a sacrifice as they could and for many it was for their convenience that there were vendors that were there selling, providing, animals that could be purchased and offered for each one's sacrifice.  

As I understand it, from what I have read regarding it, the offense was a mixture of three (potentially more) things.  For one substandard animals were being sold for better quality ones at a much higher price.  Many of the faithful were being taken advantage of because they were being charged exorbitant prices where they had a monopoly.   Lastly because people came from many areas and diverse places there were all kinds of monies brought into the region, where the sacrifice would be given, so there were money changers to exchange foreign money for that accepted and the rates at which they were making the exchange was such that it was very much taking advantage of the faithful.  It was the fact of the faithful being fleeced by the very people chosen, by the religious leaders, to provide services to the faithful.  It very likely could be that the religious leaders were also getting a kickback from the chosen vendors.  

Yes, also, Christ and the disciples confronted many false teachers and doctrines and encouraged believers to test what is told to them.  I do not though believe what is going on here, on this forum, in front of diverse believers and non-beleivers justifies an analogy to the anger in the temple against the moneychangers and that doesn't justify not responding in love, compassion and respect to people.  It is also NOT in keeping with the Scriptures and Christ word to set in Judgement of those outside the Church/faith.  We can defend our faith and represent our beliefs by using Christ example and treating people with dignity.   Additionally we are also just as apt to be in error than another for with many doctrines (not dogma) there is room for interpretations that differ without meaning that there is threat to the believer.  Again I fully believe that is the reason Paul's teaching in Romans 14 can apply.

Semi, I used that symbolism on purpose but it is no surprise for there are many, a great many, of well meaning Christians, who fall along all types when it comes to philosophies about dealing with others (Christians and non-Christians).   Many are also very legalistic as well as being judgmental.  Many feel some kind of justification and they are somehow specifically chosen and authorized to stand in judgment of their fellow man even though they, themselves, are just as flawed and sinful.  I am sure I have my own shortcomings as well and I hope all of us (Christians) go through a self analysis and self examination procedure.  

I, at times, hesitate to make open judgments about another person.   I myself am then doing the exact same thing, technically, so I am at times hesitant at trying to do so.  The judgment that I have to make is if I believe that the actions are harmful to the mission that Christ gave all Christians to do and also in representing Christ (mirroring Christ) in a way that I believe is totally opposite to what Christ told us to do and what Scripture tells us to do.  I hope that makes sense.

_________________________

I keep wondering why you don't apply all of Paul to your own life.

Well he does Crusty, he just doesn't admit to all of it.

Actually, he only practices what he chooses, and ignores the rest.

While I realize you are only saying this to help me better myself and my Christian walk -- can you be a wee bit more specific?   Just which parts of Paul's teachings do I need to apply more diligently to my life?

Now, I realize that I do need lots of improvement in my daily life, and I do need to grow spiritually.  But, if  you will be a wee more specific -- then, I will know where I should begin working first.

I do look forward to your detailed evaluation.  After that, I am sure you will not mind if I reciprocate; but, only from Scripture, of course.

Thank you, my Friend, and God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

_______

No, I'm sorry but it doesn't make sense to me. Any person that believes in God, believes what the Bible says & calls themselves a Christian should get good & angry at Bill & the people like him. He & those like him are a blight on Christianity & the name of God. Bill's very existence is an insult to the name Christian. He does not represent any significant faction of Christianity at all. But evidently, not one person that considers him/herself a Christian feels a need to be insulted by the injustice of what Bill does every time he post on this forum. He is causing Christianity to stink, turning people away from anything to do with God. He is not being held accountable for what he is doing & that, in my mind, should be a shame on anyone that considers him/herself a true Christian.

I think you can find most of your answers about the rapture here, http://www.raptureforums.com/index.cfm

Welcome CoolitGirl and thank you for your contribution of the URL/website.   I'm sure Bill will like it as it is certainly holding to a pre-tribulation view of Rapture timing.  If you have read above, or anyone else, it will not be a surprise that I do not hold to a pre-tribulational rapture and have submitted/provided scriptural references to backup and identify my suggestions.

The real question is what difference does it make for Christians and the Church if there is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture or a Pre-Wrath Rapture?  Mainly IF the pre-tribulation position is correct, which I do not believe it is, then there will be no need for Christians or the Church to worry about accepting the mark of the beast for they will be long gone before that time ever comes upon mankind.  There will be no worry about being caught up in the aftermath of global war which is quite likely going to involve a nuclear component or biological and chemical attacks.  IF the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is correct then all of God's Saints are going to be out of here.   

IF THOUGH the Pre-Wrath timing position is the correct one then Christians and the Church certainly will have to make a decision as whether to accept the mark of the beast of not.  They will also have to witness (if they are of that Generation) the horrors of living under the Antichrist and the unfolding of the seals of Revelation 6.  If, again, the pre-wrath timing position is correct then those who are fully expecting and believing in a pre-tribulation tribulation will be under extreme confusion as there will be things happening that they are not only not ready for or prepared for but they will have the most profound belief that Christ has left them behind for some reason.  It will be very much like 2 Thessalonians 2 where those Christians had thought that God had come and left them behind and Paul had to reassure them that this would not happen until after the Antichrist was revealed.  

Rather than rehash and resubmit all the scriptures again just ponder what it would be like for a pre-tribulation believers to be facing the wrath of the Antichrist?  Would the Christian maintain their ability to resist and endure?  I think that the pre-tribulation position leaves the Church and Christians in a very vulnerable position and one where they will not be prepared to enter into Daniels 70th week.  

Either way thank you for your contribution to the forum.

By the way, Bill, it's been a while but NO you did not address my specific questions regarding the scriptures and topics I posted above or on the other topic but rather created a third subject where those questions did not appear and went on to spend time not answering and dodging the questions. 

I was expecting such though so it was no suprise for there was no way you could have answered them for the pre-Trib position is NOT scripturally backed.   Again no surprise for me or anyone very familiar with the past for at least you have remained consistent if nothing else.

Hi GB,

Well, I do have to admit that between your all blue text, which is not easy to read -- and your very, very long rambling paragraphs -- I most often just scan your writings. 

However, if you have specific Scripture verses/passages you want to discuss -- let's talk about them.  But, let's do it in black text and with more short, concise paragraphs.  With long, long rambling paragraphs -- I easily lose interest.

So, what verse or passage do you want to discuss?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Welcome to the Religion Forum.  And, thank you for the Rapture web site.  Many of the End Times charts by Larkin I have seen before and it was good to review them again tonight. 

You might be interested in viewing a set of End Time Timeline Charts I have made.  You can find them in my Facebook Notes at:  https://www.facebook.com/notes...ccur/590076051038552

Please feel free to copy them and/or share them if you like.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Be sure to hold on to your side very firmly as there have been serious injuries from laughing out loud too long or hard.

And YES I thought the exact same thing, who couldn't have thought that exact same thing once reading it.

Bill,  please scroll back and there is ample wording of the questions that ANY ONE that wants to answer or follow it can unless they just don't want to.

i still wonder what big bad billybunny did over in korea that made him fear for his little shriveled soul and get all jesusy. i've yet to meet someone who has that much wood for jesus that doesn't have something that violates the laws and man and god in their past.