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quote:
Originally posted by Ronnie P.:
John 14:2

And the Lord spoke, saying "Save the drama for your mama"

Matthew 8:14

"It's Friday shouldn't you have something better to do?"

Hi Ronnie,

While I agree with you that John 14:1-3 does clearly speak of the Rapture -- I am not quite sure of your translation of Matthew 8:14-15, "Now when Jesus had come into Peter's house, He saw his wife's mother lying sick with a fever. So He touched her hand, and the fever left her. And she arose and served them."

I am not sure the even the worst paraphrase version, Peterson's "The Message" would phrase it that way. But, stay with it. I like your intentions.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Well, looks the Triburapture fans have no defense of their heresy strange unorthodox views invented by a crazy man, two boys and a goat, and popularized by venal TV millionaire faith healing "preachers. So be it. I am given to understand that one must take a dash of Daniel, then a healthy heaping bag of Isiah, add in Revelation and then lump them all together, stir in Scofield and Darby and you get Triburapture!
Hi Neal,

One thing I can assure you; you will not find any End Time prophecies in your Catechism, in your Traditions, or in your Bishop's personal diary.

But, if you could ever find a way to walk on the Conservative Side, and break free of the bondage of your Liberal Theology -- you just might find the Truth. One can always pray that you will be freed from your Liberal bonds.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Tribulation was what happened to the early Christians under Rome. Nearly every leader was slaughtered, and we have no idea how many of "rank and file" believers. If that was not tribulation, I do not know what was.

Rapture cannot be defended by any theological entity worth its salt. It requires people to believe that a select group are so special that they get a magic carpet ride to Heaven after whatever happens (frankly, there are so many episodes alleged by "unraveling prophecy" that I cannot keep track of all the convolution) that is so bad. Well, that is balderdash! If Peter and Paul and Polycarp were all murdered after torture, what makes BeeGee and his merry pranksters any better than them? Does not the Lord cause the rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike? What is the story of Job all about? Persevering through tribulation!

Keep on handling your snakes and hooting and hollering or whatever it is y'all do, just don't expect most to buy into this man-made garbage or to let you off easily for claims that cannot be sustained by a clear reading of the Bible.
Hi Neal/Aude,

Once again, what happens in the End Times? What happens at the end of the Church Age?

Will the world as we know it continue ad infinitum -- or will it end? If so, how and what will happen at the end?

Now, will you give me an honest answer -- or will it be more of your venom and nasty comments?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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I guess I don't really get where you are coming from, Aude, or why you are so angry about it. Do you accept the Bible as truth? If not, a discussion with you on this subject is moot. Either you believe it's true or you don't.

Rapture is just a word, a one word description of how many Christians interpret a portion of scripture, an easy way to refer to that period of time. Why is this such a big deal to you?

Select group? There are those that accept Christ as Savior and those that don't. What exactly do you believe? Sometimes you say things that lead me to believe you are a Christian and sometimes you say things that make no sense for a Christian to say. Bottom line it, Aude. Smiler
Why would Christians be exempt from tribulation in the future when we never were in the past? That is why I disbelieve this stuff. It is just a bunch of cobbled together verses often taken out of context and came out of Darby and Scofield's "interpretations". This entire End Times stuff was never taught nor believed until the 1800s. Why is that? If this stuff is so true and vital, then why is not clearly stated in at least a letter from Paul or by Our Lord Himself? Why is it that only a small group of Protestants teach this? If it were so clear, then would it not be part of Roman, Mainline Protestant, Orthodox, or Eastern Christianity?
Because it is new. It is a gloss on a few verses of prophecy that some have chosen to take as literal.

I feel it is heresy. It detracts from Our Lord's mission for us, by concentrating on "reward" for nothing but belief.
So, Neal/Aude,

Please -- tell us your interpretation of what will happen in the End Times. Or, do you believe there will be no End Times -- that the world will continue on as it is forever?

You complain about our interpretation; please share YOUR views with us on this issue.

If you say we are wrong -- then, please, tell us what you believe to be right.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Do you agree that the book of Revelations is true or are you saying there is an alternative interpretation of it, that all those plagues have happened & can somehow be connected to events in our past?

I don't think we will be "rapture(d)" or taken up before tribulation. I know many disagree with that, but I think we will still be here. There is a verse in Revelations that speaks of those with God's mark. I know some say it means the 144,000 Jews, but I don't agree. I think it is speaking of Christians. I could be wrong, of course, but that is what I think. Smiler
I do not believe there will be any "rapture". I mean, I really have not even heard of such a theory until very recently. I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense, nor do I think it jives with what we know "I will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead".
He certainly doesnt say"I will come and snatch up a handful of you". But, again, that's my opinion.
I don't think anyone can claim to KNOW the answer to these questions. Personally, I think that anyone that claims to "know" is a red flag- God's ways are so very far from our ways. We are really not meant to understand all of this in our lifetime- hence, the word "mystery" being used so frequently...
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Hi VP,

You tell us, "I do not believe there will be any "rapture." I mean, I really have not even heard of such a theory until very recently. I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense, nor do I think it jives with what we know, [i]"I will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead."

He certainly doesn't say, "I will come and snatch up a handful of you." But, again, that's my opinion. I don't think anyone can claim to KNOW the answer to these questions. Personally, I think that anyone that claims to "know" is a red flag - God's ways are so very far from our ways. We are really not meant to understand all of this in our lifetime - hence, the word "mystery" being used so frequently."
[/i]

And, yet God does reveal so much to us in the Bible; but, it does take a concentrated effort to grow and mature in the knowledge of His Word. This is not something one will learn just listening to a sermon one hour a week in Mass or in any other worship service. One has to lay aside all the books of traditions and catechisms -- and get into the ONE book which does have the answers -- the Bible.

Laying aside all your other books, or using them only as commentaries, get yourself into a serious study of the Bible -- and you will find many things you never suspected, revealed in His Word. But, this is not accomplished by merely a cursory glance at the Bible, then jumping back into your man-slanted catechisms.

Take time to really study theses verses below and the passages associated with them.

1 Thessalonians 4:17, "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

2 Corinthians 12:2, "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago — whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows — such a man was caught up to the third heaven."

2 Corinthians 12:4, "was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak."

Revelation 12:5, "And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne."

You will find the term or phrase "caught up" used. This phrase in the Greek language of the New Testament is "harpazo" meaning: "to snatch out or away."

Between 382 and 405 AD, when Jerome translated early Hebrew and Aramaic Scripture into the Latin Vulgate, which was the Roman Catholic Bible for centuries -- the term rapiemur was found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

The Vulgate was the standard version of the Bible for Roman Catholics for over one and a half millenia.

According to the Roman Catholic web site: http://www.roman-catholic-cate...-catholic-bible.html

The Roman Catholic Bible in English is the Douay-Rheims Bible and has been for hundreds of years. The Bible is the Word of God. The Douay has been the definitive Roman Catholic Bible for centuries! The best catechisms that teach the basic Catholic beliefs concisely quote this Bible.

And, the Roman Catholic web site: http://www.roman-catholic-cate...dock-commentary.html tells us:

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible Online. . . The Holy Bible containing The Entire Canonical Scriptures, according to the decree of the Council of Trent; Translated from "The Latin Vulgate."

Looking at the web site: The Latin Vulgate With Douay-Rheims And King James Parallel. http://www.latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=1&b=13&c=4

We find that, in 1 Thessalonians 4, the Roman Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible has edited out verse 17 and replaced it with verse 18.

On this web site, viewing the Douay-Rheims, the Latin Vulgate, and the King James Bible in parallel, we find: The King James, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, reads, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

In the Latin Vulgate version, from which the Douay-Rheims was translated, we find verse 17 to read, "deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus"

Yet, in the Douay-Rheims Bible, the Roman Catholic Bible, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is left out -- and verse 18, "Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words" -- is moved up and put in its place.

In other words, to avoid any possibility that lay people would read the Bible and discover that the Rapture is truly prophesied in the Bible, it is obvious the Roman Catholic church edited this verse out.

However, to their credit, in newer Bibles, such as the New American Catholic Edition Bible blessed by Cardinal Spellman in 1950, this verse has been restored. This also is true of the New American Bible blessed by Cardinal O'Boyle in 1970.

So, my question to you has to be: Which Roman Catholic Bible are you basing your catechism upon -- the Douay-Rheims Roman Catholic Bible shown in these current Roman Catholic web sites -- or the Roman Catholic Bibles blessed by Cardinals Spellman and O'Boyle.

Since you insist that the Rapture is not mentioned in the Bible -- I must assume that you are basing all your Biblical understanding on the version which edited out 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

But, VP, the Rapture is indeed taught in Scripture.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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The Revelation of St. John the Divine, as this work is commonly styled, also known as The Ἀποκάλυψις in Greek means means literally "unveiling." Now the start of the Book, which may or may not have been by John the Apostle, only tradition tells us that it was, is when John on Patmos in exile has a vision of seven stars and seven candle sticks. Our Lord appears to him and tells him the seven stars and the seven candle sticks are the "Seven Churches of Asia" and the "Angels who Guard them." This is the last of the unveiling. There are no more keys to the puzzle as to the remaining visions and what they symbolize.

This is why it is a troublesome book and barely made the cut as inclusion into the Canon. One is free to say that the subsequent visions and visions of events are literal, which is rather silly, as it starts out telling us that it is prophecy which needs a key. Then there is no more key given. Why? Well, at one time there probably was a key, but it was kept a secret for only a few key leaders to use, not the general public, and certainly not the Roman Empire to know. One must note the common repetition of certain "perfect" or mystical Jewish numbers: 7, 12, 144,000, 1000, etc. This is not by coincidence. Are they literal? I think not.

God Almighty created the universe with an act of volition and does not need to end it with a series of convolutions that requires the reader to use a flow chart to keep track.

Holy writ says the world will end in fire, and science says one day our sun will expand as it uses up its Hydrogen and starts to fuse the next element on the table. This will eventually burn up the inner planets, earth included.

The matter of the Final Judgment is a mystery and cannot be safely taught as a series of various judgments. The apostolic tradition is one final judgment for the living and the dead.

Finally, why would men of the purest faith such as Peter, Paul, Polycarp, Denis, ect. be allowed to be "tribulated" and not mere mortals we, neither Holy Confessors nor Doctors of the Church nor bishops who led untold thousands to Christ? I dare say we are not special today any more than we were 2000 years ago. The Lord knows no north, no south, no east, no west, he knows neither male nor female, neither Jew nor Gentile. There is no reason to expect an easy out from an event that is probably not going to happen in the way that some parroting Protestant preachers proclaim.

There is a reason why this was unknown in the Ancient Church: because it is a modern teaching. Well, the Church's teaching are eternal and need no Darby nor any Scofield to add glosses. Was anyone teaching this in 550? NO. 1150? No. 1550? No. 1650? No. 1750? No. 1850? Yes, a few. 1950? A few more. 1970 as we approached the second thousand years of our calendar? A lot more, and it keeps on growing.

There is a whole Rapture Industry. Simony, pure and simple, books and CDs and DVDs on how to get raptured, how to survive if you miss it, etc. Hal Lindsay started this simony, then LaHaye and his cohorts mastered it, and now even the SBC is buying into it.

I like my faith short and simple. Not convulsions of logic and requirements for me to accept one man's interpretation of what Daniel or Isiah or John "meant."

But if someone wants to be a Rapturite or a Tribulator, go right ahead, this is the US, and we in the West can preach anything even silly fables and get away with it, but God is not mocked. To have the audacity to claim to know what is said to be "veiled" is the height of hubris, and something I would never attempt. Let's just say that if a Lutheran pastor, or an Episcopal priest or a Methodist preacher or a Presbyterian presbyter were to get up and start a rant on those topics he or she would get the shortest tenure known in the parish's history. Who even knows what Rome or Istanbul or Moscow would do to them? It would not be pretty, defrocking or locking in a monastery never is.

This is a dogma, and not a very theologically advanced one, as it is based on interpretation of certain verses that have to be read in conjunction out of order and in various Books in order to get to the dogma. It is not clear as rain water, which is what doctrine is. It is short. It has apostolic origin. Case closed in my eyes.

I will let God end the world as He sees fit and judge as he sees fit, and not claim any super powers to interpret veiled prophecy!
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Holy writ says the world will end in fire, and science says one day our sun will expand as it uses up its Hydrogen and starts to fuse the next element on the table. This will eventually burn up the inner planets, earth included.

Hi Neal/Aude,

So, that is your view of how the Church Age and this world will end -- we will all just burn up and that is it!

Wow, I can see why you have no sense of eternal security. Who could, with a Biblical (or lack of Bible) view such as this?

This God you worship sure is an unfaithful God, isn't He? No eternal security, no hope past this world, nothing for Christian believers to look forward to or in which we have hope.

Neal, I am sorry that is your God; for my God is totally the opposite. And, in Him, I have His promise of salvation and eternal security. But, even though you do not believe Him -- if you really are a Christian believer -- I will walk with you in heaven.

But, to be quite honest -- I sure hope the Rapture you will experience tempers your negative attitude a wee bit -- for I do not expect to see ANYONE in heaven calling down curses and castigations upon other believers.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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To address the Holy Anointed Eternally Secure One with the utmost deference and humility: you are full of crap. I don't know how the world will end, when it will end, and frankly do not care as it will be the end of the earth. I have "eternal security" in that I acknowledge and bewail my many and manifest sins regularly and orally in public and know that God Almighty will forgive me if I repent and turn from my wicked ways.

As for not knowing the Bible, I dare say that is the silliest thing I have ever read. I know the Bible inside and out. I have even had it read to me every Sunday for nearly 50 years. When you were playing with your ouija boards, and consulting your wizards, I was on my knees in prayer to Our Lord. I was reading my Bible. I was sincere and still am in my faith and it has never wavered one iota. Even facing death twice, I was not afraid. When I was told I had Stage IV NH Lymphoma and looked the life expectancy, I was not afraid. Know why? Because I do not need a magic carpet ride to get to heaven when the going gets rough. I have faith in God Almighty. It is a two way street: He loves me and wants me to delight in His will and walk in His ways.

Your imposition of dogma that is theologically illiterate is repulsive. You lack simple faith in Our Lord, you need a leader to tell you what to believe, not the Apostolic Faith of the Blessed Apostles chosen by Our Lord to lead His flock. You utterly lack in any quality that make you other than one out of many loud mouths who parrot what others say, there is nothing original about you at all. Your conflating of religion and politics is equally repulsive. You as a human being are "right sorry" in my eyes. I know that is judgmental, but I am frail and while not often prone to calling a person out, I make exception in peculiar (in both the Latin and English senses of the word) your case. Your brand of Christianity literally sickens me and I can see nothing good from your tree at all, save perhaps turning some away from the doctrine you preach and towards Christ.

Now, when was the last time you preached on the Sermon on the Mount or "If I have not charity"?
Why are you obsessed with this silly End Times stuff? It is the end of the world! Not a play with live action for the Raptured to sit back in Abraham's Bosom to enjoy while blood spills and death ensues!
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
To address the Holy Anointed Eternally Secure One with the utmost deference and humility: you are full of crap. I don't know how the world will end, when it will end, and frankly do not care as it will be the end of the earth. I have "eternal security" in that I acknowledge and bewail my many and manifest sins regularly and orally in public and know that God Almighty will forgive me if I repent and turn from my wicked ways.

Hi Neal/Aude,

Why bother confessing your "many and manifest sins" -- since, according to the Gospel of Neal, everything, including us -- is just going to burn up anyway?

Given that truth, why bother confessing sins, why bother thinking about eternal security, why bother even acknowledging God -- since we are all going to be annihilated by fire in the end anyway?

Gee, Neal, thank you for this encouraging, enlightening, edifying news.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
When you were playing with your ouija boards, and consulting your wizards, I was on my knees in prayer to Our Lord. I was reading my Bible. I was sincere and still am in my faith and it has never wavered one iota. Even facing death twice, I was not afraid. When I was told I had Stage IV NH Lymphoma and looked the life expectancy, I was not afraid. Know why? Because I do not need a magic carpet ride to get to heaven when the going gets rough. I have faith in God Almighty.



Beautiful, Aude. Truly.

Bill was a crystal worshiper? It is making sense now. He blew his brain in the 60's. There is actually quite a bit of medical precedent for this. Taking too much acid seems to damage part of the brain resulting in an activation of the "God" part of the brain resulting in the unfettered fundamentalism we see here. Yes, it makes much more sense now.

Bill, his few words are far more edifying than your voluminous ramblings ever could be. You see, intelligence and Christianity CAN occupy the same body. Probably too late for you, though.
Note our friend in the wastelands of SoCal did not address our duties as Our Lord commanded by example in the Sermon on the Mount. He only called me a "bishop" which I am most certainly not. Nota bene that he changed the topic and mocked the Holy Writ which says that the world will not be destroyed again by water, but by fire, a fact which science bears out.

He is so ashamed of his claims of how to parse kbr that he ignores it completely. I find him rather "interesting' in the same way that the paintings of a schizophrenic are "interesting." Oddly drawn to them, I am, wondering how those on the far right hand side of the the nutty fundamentalist Bell Curve allege to think. It is like my pet term for the World Net Daily and Prison Planet, I call them "What the crazy people will talk and blog about tomorrow."

He expects us to believe that something called weeks are actually years in Daniel, with no proof. He has a fetish for a Third Temple in Jerusalem and finding the red heifer to consecrate it. I claim that Christ, as He Himself said, "I shall tear down the Temple and raise it back up again in three days." Guess what, He did! The Temple was His Body on earth, and it was raised back up in glory on Easter Morn. If people believe that a red heifer is needed to cleanse anything at all, they are too silly to even comment upon.

He knows good and well that the Bible in the Old Testament was formed in Babylon by scribes and editors in exile, about 600 BC, from oral accounts of varying stories. The Levi Tribe tried to make themselves the heroes of purity and sole arbiters of religious expression in these works, the hereditary caste of priests and slaughter house helpers who got a 10% cut of everything produced. There is more superstition in Leviticus and Deuteronomy than in Grimm's Fairy Tales. In Exodus and Genesis, God Almighty is just the tribal El who suddenly becomes YHWH after encounter with Moses. Is the alleged slaughter of the people who already from time immemorial possessed Canaan really ordered by God through Joshua? If so, then why was the Aramaic language of Abraham, Jacob, and Issac and Joseph abandoned when they left for Egypt for 400 years and a Canaanite language suddenly imposed? It makes no sense. Poor editing. Talking snakes, the Hebraic equivalent of Pandora's Box as literal. Give us a break.
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere: Note our friend in the wastelands of SoCal did not address our duties as Our Lord commanded by example in the Sermon on the Mount. He only called me a "bishop" which I am most certainly not. Nota bene that he changed the topic and mocked the Holy Writ which says that the world will not be destroyed again by water, but by fire, a fact which science bears out.

Hi Neal/Aude,

Better be careful, my Friend, or folks will begin to think you are quoting Scripture from the Bible. But, we realize that you will only quote from your catechisms, traditions, and prayer book. But, we must make sure folks know that you would never be caught dead quoting that horrible book, the Bible.

However, so that we can avoid such confusion in the future, I will tells our Friends where to find God's description of the days of His Millennial Kingdom on earth and the days following His Millennial Kingdom as we transition to our eternal home. Well, at least it will be the eternal home for Christian believers. Non-believers will be paying rent in another location.

First, the prophet Isaiah tells us about the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ on earth:

Isaiah 65:20-25, "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.

They will build houses and inhabit them; They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They will not build and another inhabit, They will not plant and another eat; For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people, And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.

They will not labor in vain, Or bear children for calamity; For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD, And their descendants with them. It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," says the LORD."


Then, Scripture clearly tells us of the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem:

Revelation 21:1-4, "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, 'Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.'"


2 Peter 3:10-13, "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells."


Just as He created the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1; He will now create a New Heaven, a New Earth, and a New Jerusalem:

Isaiah 65:17-19, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing And her people for gladness. I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people; And there will no longer be heard in her The voice of weeping and the sound of crying."

So, my Friend, Neal, forget science -- all we have to do is to go straight to the Bible to confirm that, after the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ on earth -- God will refurbish this old heaven and earth by fire. Will it be a totally new creation -- or will it be the Refiner's Fire returning this heaven and earth to the state it was in during the days of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? We do not know, for the Bible does not say. Yet, we do know that we will have a perfect paradise, created or refurbished by fire -- and we who are Christian believers will live eternally in the presence of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. We Christian believers, including the Old Testament believers, and the Tribulation believers -- will all be saints living with Him. Praise the Lord!

Neal, thank you for this opportunity to share this Biblical perspective with our Forum Friends.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Now how about parsing the Arabic triliteral root kbr for us? You once claimed such supreme knowledge. I care not a whit about how, when, why the end will come. It is the end of the world. I cannot slow it down, speed it up, or stop time and the will of God. Nor do I care how life began: it is and we are here now. I do care about the life, passion, death, resurrection and example and commandments of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Now how about parsing the Arabic triliteral root kbr for us? You once claimed such supreme knowledge. I care not a whit about how, when, why the end will come. It is the end of the world. I cannot slow it down, speed it up, or stop time and the will of God. Nor do I care how life began: it is and we are here now. I do care about the life, passion, death, resurrection and example and commandments of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Hi Neal/Aude,

Don't tell me -- tell God. He's the One who wrote it into the prophecy of the Bible. I guess your beef is with Him.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Nobody knows because the book is purposefully coded. We do not have the key. Its meaning is like debating the number of angels who can dance on the head of Bill Gray.

Many claim to have the key. Good luck in proving that their reading is the correct one.

Hi Neal/Aude,

So, God did not author a Bible; He authored a special Code Book! Wow!

Maybe He used Navajo Indians like the Army did in World War 2. He has to be careful though. If you know your history; that is how America was able to kill Admiral Yamamoto -- they broke the Japanese code and learned that he was on a plane -- and shot down the plane.

So, if God is not careful; someone, maybe you, Neal -- will learn His code and shoot Him down.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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The Greek name of the book means "unveiling' which is nearly the same as "decoding." The whole thing is in riddles and obscure visions. Why does John have to ask if he clearly knew what stars and candle sticks were? It is clear that he did not, or was that a rhetorical device? Why should the rest of the book be any different? A sudden change of literary genre for the sake of daring?

Who died and made you Chief of the Rapturitators? Isaac Scofield?
Bill, do you take the bible to be literal. I am sure you realize the bible has been verbally passed down for hundreds of years before it was ever written. Then, it went through numerous translations to get to its present form. Even now, there are thousands of different versions. How can you take this to be literal.

Have you ever played telephone? Or are games a sin in the sky fairies eyes as well?
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
The Greek name of the book means "unveiling' which is nearly the same as "decoding." The whole thing is in riddles and obscure visions. Why does John have to ask if he clearly knew what stars and candle sticks were? It is clear that he did not, or was that a rhetorical device? Why should the rest of the book be any different? A sudden change of literary genre for the sake of daring?

Hi Neal/Aude,

Regarding your "stretching" the meaning of "revelation" to include "decoding" -- I present this Scripture verse: 1 Corinthians 14:33, " For God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints."

Now, if He is not a God of confusion -- why would He need to author a Decoding Book?

Then, you ask the question, "Why does John have to ask if he clearly knew what stars and candle sticks were?"

Below is the Scripture passage to which you are referring. Please show us in that passge where John asked ANY question.

Revelation 1:12-13, "Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash."

Rev 1:14-18, "His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, 'Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.'"

Rev 1:19-20, "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things. As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches."

Yet, typical of the Bible, it does explain itself. First, Jesus presents the seven golden lampstands and the seven stars -- then, in verse 20, He explains them. Yes, indeed, the Bible does explain the Bible.

By the way, I am leading a Bible Study tonight on this very chapter of Revelation. I will let you know how it goes.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Indeed!
Art, don't you know that Bill rejects apostolic teaching, and Tradition?
He waited patiently for the editors and writers to finish, a couple of editions, a few deletions of several books...
THEN the work was finished, to be taken literally. But only sometimes. The happy fluffy parts where you are "SAVED" by virtue of faith alone, regardless of what you do, is the most important part:the rest of scripture is okay, but if it conflicts with "faith alone" then it is not as important, and not to be taken literally.
Then, he waited about 1000 years, the church broke off and started various and sundry "denominations" that could each put their own self serving "spin" on sacred word and tradition.
Now then, the Bible, and the Church are complete. And perfect. But it took our fundy brother a very long time to perfect this, so pleae have patience with him! Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Indeed! Art, don't you know that Bill rejects apostolic teaching, and Tradition? He waited patiently for the editors and writers to finish, a couple of editions, a few deletions of several books... THEN the work was finished, to be taken literally. But only sometimes. The happy fluffy parts where you are "SAVED" by virtue of faith alone, regardless of what you do, is the most important part: the rest of scripture is okay, but if it conflicts with "faith alone" then it is not as important, and not to be taken literally.

Then, he waited about 1000 years, the church broke off and started various and sundry "denominations" that could each put their own self serving "spin" on sacred word and tradition. Now then, the Bible, and the Church are complete. And perfect. But it took our fundy brother a very long time to perfect this, so please have patience with him!

Hi VP,

The one thing you forgot to mention, and the most important, is that the church which Jesus Christ began -- was begun on the Day of Pentecost. This was about 300+ years before the Church of Rome was instituted. So, the Christian church traces its origin back to that day in 32 or 33 AD -- while the Church of Rome traces its origin to around the year 300-319 AD when Emperor Constantine originated it.

So, which is the true church of Jesus Christ? I feel comfortable going with the one begun by Him on the Day of Pentecost.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Au contraire mon frere,
Jesus "built" the church when he called on Peter- and said, You are the rock. And upon this rock I build my church.
Now. I am not saying any church is "better" than the next. Truly what is important is one's relationship with Jesus, and that we live our lives set by His example. Having said that, you cannot possibly be arguing that the Baptist Church originated prior to the Apostolic Church.
I know you are more intelligent than that.

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