L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

NPR is one of the most reliable news sources available. Any fact checking site will be glad to tell you that.

I haven't posted any memes.

Republican 'right to work laws' were designed to weaken the unions.

Reagan busted the first union, in my lifetime, as a POTUS.

A social safety net is a horrible thing, says Republicans.

Are you even reading the posts?

 

Jeffrey Dvorkin, a NPR ombudsman did admit to liberal bias at NPR.

You post liberal ideas that often are false or misleading, but often spread like wildfire on the interweb.

Union membership was already falling before Reagan and the 'right to work' laws:

File:Union membership in us 1930-2010.png

https://commons.wikimedia.org/..._in_us_1930-2010.png

I believe most republicans believe in a social safety net, but not a welfare lifestyle.

I also read your posts, but I often discount the quality of liberal sites.

 

You do see the slope of the graph you posted make a sharp turn around 1980, right? Your own sources prove Reagan had a LOT to do with the decrease in union membership. Right to work laws were started around that same time frame, as well. Your own source material shows the facts. Why can't you get it.

Jimmy Carter was president up to Jan. 21,1981. You mean he actually did something right? As to the union Reagan supposedly busted, PATCO, they staged an illegal strike against the government. One of the many pieces of paperwork a new federal employee signs is a legally binding promise to not strike against the government, or so it was more than 4 decades ago when I waded through a mountain of paperwork. The Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization busted itself.

Republicans line up to repeat the same old tired propaganda. Their 'facts' don't even match their narrative. The graph supplied is marked in 5 year increments. It could be 82, for all you can tell by the graph. Republicans will argue semantics all day, if it will farther their narrative.

 

It might be a good time to understand the differences between causation and correlation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMUQSMFGBDo

Often times people use the correlation of who's the president when something happens instead of looking at the events happening in the world at the time and finding causation. I remember during that time the economic stagflation that gripped the economy. I also remember the labor turmoil of the era with hard feelings on both sides as companies tried to curtain labor costs while labor tried to stay ahead of inflation by asking for large pay increases. It was an era of shoddy workmanship by American automakers that resulted in the bailout of Chrysler Corp. and the ascendance of the Japanese car companies. Many factories closed and union jobs disappeared during that time.

Stanky posted:

It might be a good time to understand the differences between causation and correlation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMUQSMFGBDo

Often times people use the correlation of who's the president when something happens instead of looking at the events happening in the world at the time and finding causation. I remember during that time the economic stagflation that gripped the economy. I also remember the labor turmoil of the era with hard feelings on both sides as companies tried to curtain labor costs while labor tried to stay ahead of inflation by asking for large pay increases. It was an era of shoddy workmanship by American automakers that resulted in the bailout of Chrysler Corp. and the ascendance of the Japanese car companies. Many factories closed and union jobs disappeared during that time.

Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality. Worker's pay remains stagnant. CEO pay goes up 300%. Companies failed to invest in workers and instead put that money into management.  Imagine that. Causation and correlation. Another Republican talking point falls by the wayside.

"Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality."

Yep, totally agree! That's why many union jobs were replaced by robots which seems to be why the quality of US products has increased. I never have heard of a robot coming to work drunk or strung out on drugs.

Stanky posted:

"Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality."

Yep, totally agree! That's why many union jobs were replaced by robots which seems to be why the quality of US products has increased. I never have heard of a robot coming to work drunk or strung out on drugs.

Let me get this straight. You agree that union workmanship is quality workmanship and then in your next sentence, you explain why union workmanship is not quality? What? That doesn't make sense. You praise union workmanship and then insult union members.

L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:

"Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality."

Yep, totally agree! That's why many union jobs were replaced by robots which seems to be why the quality of US products has increased. I never have heard of a robot coming to work drunk or strung out on drugs.

Let me get this straight. You agree that union workmanship is quality workmanship and then in your next sentence, you explain why union workmanship is not quality? What? That doesn't make sense. You praise union workmanship and then insult union members.

Nope, often times Union membership and workmanship are mutually exclusive terms but a decrease in workmanship by union members always means a decrease in quality. That's also a reason manufacturers fled to the orient. Again, that's why manufacturers invested in robots and other technology. But aren't you glad that we can agree on something!

Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:

"Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality."

Yep, totally agree! That's why many union jobs were replaced by robots which seems to be why the quality of US products has increased. I never have heard of a robot coming to work drunk or strung out on drugs.

Let me get this straight. You agree that union workmanship is quality workmanship and then in your next sentence, you explain why union workmanship is not quality? What? That doesn't make sense. You praise union workmanship and then insult union members.

Nope, often times Union membership and workmanship are mutually exclusive terms but a decrease in workmanship by union members always means a decrease in quality. That's also a reason manufacturers fled to the orient. Again, that's why manufacturers invested in robots and other technology. But aren't you glad that we can agree on something!

I don't agree with your explanation. Union workmanship is what was being discussed, then you insulted union workers. It's plain to see. Most production jobs went overseas for extremely cheap labor. When you can pay $100/ day/worker or $0.50/day/worker. Some repetitive jobs were replaced by robots, but someone has to man that robot and inspect the work. Union workers are trained, by unions, for the jobs they do. That makes for quality workmanship and pride in their work. Companies use to be happy to pay for the skill levels unions provided. Now, companies pay for the skill of the CEO and couldn't care less about the worker.

L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:

"Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality."

Yep, totally agree! That's why many union jobs were replaced by robots which seems to be why the quality of US products has increased. I never have heard of a robot coming to work drunk or strung out on drugs.

Let me get this straight. You agree that union workmanship is quality workmanship and then in your next sentence, you explain why union workmanship is not quality? What? That doesn't make sense. You praise union workmanship and then insult union members.

Nope, often times Union membership and workmanship are mutually exclusive terms but a decrease in workmanship by union members always means a decrease in quality. That's also a reason manufacturers fled to the orient. Again, that's why manufacturers invested in robots and other technology. But aren't you glad that we can agree on something!

I don't agree with your explanation. Union workmanship is what was being discussed, then you insulted union workers. It's plain to see. Most production jobs went overseas for extremely cheap labor. When you can pay $100/ day/worker or $0.50/day/worker. Some repetitive jobs were replaced by robots, but someone has to man that robot and inspect the work. Union workers are trained, by unions, for the jobs they do. That makes for quality workmanship and pride in their work. Companies use to be happy to pay for the skill levels unions provided. Now, companies pay for the skill of the CEO and couldn't care less about the worker.

Unions in theory are great, but in practice leave a lot to be desired. People who can't be fired often behave very badly with shoddy quality products, they often bring their vices to work with them, and they often slow down work. I know, I belonged to a union and often was told to slow down and take a break because I made others look bad. In a union workforce, it seems talent and drive means little and the only reason for doing good work is to be able to be able to look at oneself in the mirror without guilt.

I might also point out that unless one has a job without competition, like a goobermint job, one might make 10% more or maybe a little more, but the drag on a business will likely close it in a few years. Folks had better have saved that 10%.

Summary

Unions function as labor cartels, restricting the number of workers in a company or industry to drive up the remaining workers' wages. They also retard economic growth and delay recovery from recession. Over time, unions destroy jobs in the companies they organize and have the same effect on business investment as does a 33 percentage point corporate income tax increase.
https://www.heritage.org/jobs-...jobs-and-the-economy
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:

"Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality."

Yep, totally agree! That's why many union jobs were replaced by robots which seems to be why the quality of US products has increased. I never have heard of a robot coming to work drunk or strung out on drugs.

Let me get this straight. You agree that union workmanship is quality workmanship and then in your next sentence, you explain why union workmanship is not quality? What? That doesn't make sense. You praise union workmanship and then insult union members.

Nope, often times Union membership and workmanship are mutually exclusive terms but a decrease in workmanship by union members always means a decrease in quality. That's also a reason manufacturers fled to the orient. Again, that's why manufacturers invested in robots and other technology. But aren't you glad that we can agree on something!

I don't agree with your explanation. Union workmanship is what was being discussed, then you insulted union workers. It's plain to see. Most production jobs went overseas for extremely cheap labor. When you can pay $100/ day/worker or $0.50/day/worker. Some repetitive jobs were replaced by robots, but someone has to man that robot and inspect the work. Union workers are trained, by unions, for the jobs they do. That makes for quality workmanship and pride in their work. Companies use to be happy to pay for the skill levels unions provided. Now, companies pay for the skill of the CEO and couldn't care less about the worker.

Unions in theory are great, but in practice leave a lot to be desired. People who can't be fired often behave very badly with shoddy quality products, they often bring their vices to work with them, and they often slow down work. I know, I belonged to a union and often was told to slow down and take a break because I made others look bad. In a union workforce, it seems talent and drive means little and the only reason for doing good work is to be able to be able to look at oneself in the mirror without guilt.

I might also point out that unless one has a job without competition, like a goobermint job, one might make 10% more or maybe a little more, but the drag on a business will likely close it in a few years. Folks had better have saved that 10%.

Summary

Unions function as labor cartels, restricting the number of workers in a company or industry to drive up the remaining workers' wages. They also retard economic growth and delay recovery from recession. Over time, unions destroy jobs in the companies they organize and have the same effect on business investment as does a 33 percentage point corporate income tax increase.
https://www.heritage.org/jobs-...jobs-and-the-economy

I, like you, remain skeptical of politically motivated sources.

Now, this is your statement, in summation, Union workmanship is great, but union members are horrible people who have problems and unions force companies to pay more than they can afford and unions stop economic growth.

Unions sure made America great when they were formed. Republicans hate unions and you just proved my point. Thanks.

Another Republican talking point down. That makes 3..... what's the next propaganda line you'd like to address?

L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:

"Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality."

Yep, totally agree! That's why many union jobs were replaced by robots which seems to be why the quality of US products has increased. I never have heard of a robot coming to work drunk or strung out on drugs.

Let me get this straight. You agree that union workmanship is quality workmanship and then in your next sentence, you explain why union workmanship is not quality? What? That doesn't make sense. You praise union workmanship and then insult union members.

Nope, often times Union membership and workmanship are mutually exclusive terms but a decrease in workmanship by union members always means a decrease in quality. That's also a reason manufacturers fled to the orient. Again, that's why manufacturers invested in robots and other technology. But aren't you glad that we can agree on something!

I don't agree with your explanation. Union workmanship is what was being discussed, then you insulted union workers. It's plain to see. Most production jobs went overseas for extremely cheap labor. When you can pay $100/ day/worker or $0.50/day/worker. Some repetitive jobs were replaced by robots, but someone has to man that robot and inspect the work. Union workers are trained, by unions, for the jobs they do. That makes for quality workmanship and pride in their work. Companies use to be happy to pay for the skill levels unions provided. Now, companies pay for the skill of the CEO and couldn't care less about the worker.

Unions in theory are great, but in practice leave a lot to be desired. People who can't be fired often behave very badly with shoddy quality products, they often bring their vices to work with them, and they often slow down work. I know, I belonged to a union and often was told to slow down and take a break because I made others look bad. In a union workforce, it seems talent and drive means little and the only reason for doing good work is to be able to be able to look at oneself in the mirror without guilt.

I might also point out that unless one has a job without competition, like a goobermint job, one might make 10% more or maybe a little more, but the drag on a business will likely close it in a few years. Folks had better have saved that 10%.

Summary

Unions function as labor cartels, restricting the number of workers in a company or industry to drive up the remaining workers' wages. They also retard economic growth and delay recovery from recession. Over time, unions destroy jobs in the companies they organize and have the same effect on business investment as does a 33 percentage point corporate income tax increase.
https://www.heritage.org/jobs-...jobs-and-the-economy

I, like you, remain skeptical of politically motivated sources.

Now, this is your statement, in summation, Union workmanship is great, but union members are horrible people who have problems and unions force companies to pay more than they can afford and unions stop economic growth.

Unions sure made America great when they were formed. Republicans hate unions and you just proved my point. Thanks.

Another Republican talking point down. That makes 3..... what's the next propaganda line you'd like to address?

Nope, from my experience, unions promote shoddy work, they protect people who should be given one 'shape up or ship out' before they're fired and they don't really improve the economy when the place shuts down. I will say one thing, a few years after I left that place; a lot of folks didn't need to reincarnate when karma came calling. At least everyone had someone they could talk to in the unemployment office.

I will give craft unions some respect, from my experience more than half of the union halls and members act like the old European guilds and craftsmen. Someone doing shoddy work or loafing often had another union member in his face.

 

Stanky posted:

Nope, from my experience, unions promote shoddy work, they protect people who should be given one 'shape up or ship out' before they're fired and they don't really improve the economy when the place shuts down. I will say one thing, a few years after I left that place; a lot of folks didn't need to reincarnate when karma came calling. At least everyone had someone they could talk to in the unemployment office.

I will give craft unions some respect, from my experience more than half of the union halls and members act like the old European guilds and craftsmen. Someone doing shoddy work or loafing often had another union member in his face.

Stanky posted:

"Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality."

Yep, totally agree! That's why many union jobs were replaced by robots which seems to be why the quality of US products has increased. I never have heard of a robot coming to work drunk or strung out on drugs.

 

Ok...You're double talking yourself. You can't believe a decrease in union workmanship equals a decrease in quality and unions promote shoddy work. Those two things are mutually exclusive.

To put it simply... you said.. Unions put out good work but promote shoddy work.

 

 

L. Cranston posted:

 

Stanky posted:

Nope, from my experience, unions promote shoddy work, they protect people who should be given one 'shape up or ship out' before they're fired and they don't really improve the economy when the place shuts down. I will say one thing, a few years after I left that place; a lot of folks didn't need to reincarnate when karma came calling. At least everyone had someone they could talk to in the unemployment office.

I will give craft unions some respect, from my experience more than half of the union halls and members act like the old European guilds and craftsmen. Someone doing shoddy work or loafing often had another union member in his face.

Stanky posted:

"Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality."

Yep, totally agree! That's why many union jobs were replaced by robots which seems to be why the quality of US products has increased. I never have heard of a robot coming to work drunk or strung out on drugs.

 

Ok...You're double talking yourself. You can't believe a decrease in union workmanship equals a decrease in quality and unions promote shoddy work. Those two things are mutually exclusive.

To put it simply... you said.. Unions put out good work but promote shoddy work.

 

 

Put down the reefer and read real slowly...If a union's workmanship increases, then quality increases. If a union's workmanship decreases, then quality decreases. Therefore a decrease in union workmanship equals a decrease in quality, unless I'm in the bizzarro universe.

If you wanted to say that a decrease in the number of unions equals a decrease in quality, you should have said so and I would greatly disagree.

Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

 

Stanky posted:

Nope, from my experience, unions promote shoddy work, they protect people who should be given one 'shape up or ship out' before they're fired and they don't really improve the economy when the place shuts down. I will say one thing, a few years after I left that place; a lot of folks didn't need to reincarnate when karma came calling. At least everyone had someone they could talk to in the unemployment office.

I will give craft unions some respect, from my experience more than half of the union halls and members act like the old European guilds and craftsmen. Someone doing shoddy work or loafing often had another union member in his face.

Stanky posted:

"Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality."

Yep, totally agree! That's why many union jobs were replaced by robots which seems to be why the quality of US products has increased. I never have heard of a robot coming to work drunk or strung out on drugs.

 

Ok...You're double talking yourself. You can't believe a decrease in union workmanship equals a decrease in quality and unions promote shoddy work. Those two things are mutually exclusive.

To put it simply... you said.. Unions put out good work but promote shoddy work.

 

 

Put down the reefer and read real slowly...If a union's workmanship increases, then quality increases. If a union's workmanship decreases, then quality decreases. Therefore a decrease in union workmanship equals a decrease in quality, unless I'm in the bizzarro universe.

If you wanted to say that a decrease in the number of unions equals a decrease in quality, you should have said so and I would greatly disagree.

I don't have a clue what kinda crack you smoke, but I said 'a decrease in union workmanship'.. the quality of work preformed by union workers... You must be in bizzarro world. In no world did I remotely reference the number of unions... I was specifically talking about the quality of work preformed by union workers. Are you confusing union participation and union workmanship?

work·man·ship
/ˈwərkmənˌSHip/
noun
noun: workmanship
  1. the degree of skill with which a product is made or a job done.
    "cracks on the bridge girders were caused by poor workmanship"
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

 

Stanky posted:

Nope, from my experience, unions promote shoddy work, they protect people who should be given one 'shape up or ship out' before they're fired and they don't really improve the economy when the place shuts down. I will say one thing, a few years after I left that place; a lot of folks didn't need to reincarnate when karma came calling. At least everyone had someone they could talk to in the unemployment office.

I will give craft unions some respect, from my experience more than half of the union halls and members act like the old European guilds and craftsmen. Someone doing shoddy work or loafing often had another union member in his face.

Stanky posted:

"Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality."

Yep, totally agree! That's why many union jobs were replaced by robots which seems to be why the quality of US products has increased. I never have heard of a robot coming to work drunk or strung out on drugs.

 

Ok...You're double talking yourself. You can't believe a decrease in union workmanship equals a decrease in quality and unions promote shoddy work. Those two things are mutually exclusive.

To put it simply... you said.. Unions put out good work but promote shoddy work.

 

 

Put down the reefer and read real slowly...If a union's workmanship increases, then quality increases. If a union's workmanship decreases, then quality decreases. Therefore a decrease in union workmanship equals a decrease in quality, unless I'm in the bizzarro universe.

If you wanted to say that a decrease in the number of unions equals a decrease in quality, you should have said so and I would greatly disagree.

I don't have a clue what kinda crack you smoke, but I said 'a decrease in union workmanship'.. the quality of work preformed by union workers... You must be in bizzarro world. In no world did I remotely reference the number of unions... I was specifically talking about the quality of work preformed by union workers. Are you confusing union participation and union workmanship?

work·man·ship
/ˈwərkmənˌSHip/
noun
noun: workmanship
  1. the degree of skill with which a product is made or a job done.
    "cracks on the bridge girders were caused by poor workmanship"

You mean that there's no bottom as to how bad union products can be? Chinese stuff is looking a whole lot better now!

Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

 

Stanky posted:

Nope, from my experience, unions promote shoddy work, they protect people who should be given one 'shape up or ship out' before they're fired and they don't really improve the economy when the place shuts down. I will say one thing, a few years after I left that place; a lot of folks didn't need to reincarnate when karma came calling. At least everyone had someone they could talk to in the unemployment office.

I will give craft unions some respect, from my experience more than half of the union halls and members act like the old European guilds and craftsmen. Someone doing shoddy work or loafing often had another union member in his face.

Stanky posted:

"Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality."

Yep, totally agree! That's why many union jobs were replaced by robots which seems to be why the quality of US products has increased. I never have heard of a robot coming to work drunk or strung out on drugs.

 

Ok...You're double talking yourself. You can't believe a decrease in union workmanship equals a decrease in quality and unions promote shoddy work. Those two things are mutually exclusive.

To put it simply... you said.. Unions put out good work but promote shoddy work.

 

 

Put down the reefer and read real slowly...If a union's workmanship increases, then quality increases. If a union's workmanship decreases, then quality decreases. Therefore a decrease in union workmanship equals a decrease in quality, unless I'm in the bizzarro universe.

If you wanted to say that a decrease in the number of unions equals a decrease in quality, you should have said so and I would greatly disagree.

I don't have a clue what kinda crack you smoke, but I said 'a decrease in union workmanship'.. the quality of work preformed by union workers... You must be in bizzarro world. In no world did I remotely reference the number of unions... I was specifically talking about the quality of work preformed by union workers. Are you confusing union participation and union workmanship?

work·man·ship
/ˈwərkmənˌSHip/
noun
noun: workmanship
  1. the degree of skill with which a product is made or a job done.
    "cracks on the bridge girders were caused by poor workmanship"

You mean that there's no bottom as to how bad union products can be? Chinese stuff is looking a whole lot better now!

After that idiotic comment, you deserve a meme.

unions protect the mediocracy,  they are a parasite that has been killing their host for years.    Unions are a major factor in challenges in government.   There are many good people however the bad employees that unions protect over shadow those good.    

L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

 

Stanky posted:

Nope, from my experience, unions promote shoddy work, they protect people who should be given one 'shape up or ship out' before they're fired and they don't really improve the economy when the place shuts down. I will say one thing, a few years after I left that place; a lot of folks didn't need to reincarnate when karma came calling. At least everyone had someone they could talk to in the unemployment office.

I will give craft unions some respect, from my experience more than half of the union halls and members act like the old European guilds and craftsmen. Someone doing shoddy work or loafing often had another union member in his face.

Stanky posted:

"Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality."

Yep, totally agree! That's why many union jobs were replaced by robots which seems to be why the quality of US products has increased. I never have heard of a robot coming to work drunk or strung out on drugs.

 

Ok...You're double talking yourself. You can't believe a decrease in union workmanship equals a decrease in quality and unions promote shoddy work. Those two things are mutually exclusive.

To put it simply... you said.. Unions put out good work but promote shoddy work.

 

 

Put down the reefer and read real slowly...If a union's workmanship increases, then quality increases. If a union's workmanship decreases, then quality decreases. Therefore a decrease in union workmanship equals a decrease in quality, unless I'm in the bizzarro universe.

If you wanted to say that a decrease in the number of unions equals a decrease in quality, you should have said so and I would greatly disagree.

I don't have a clue what kinda crack you smoke, but I said 'a decrease in union workmanship'.. the quality of work preformed by union workers... You must be in bizzarro world. In no world did I remotely reference the number of unions... I was specifically talking about the quality of work preformed by union workers. Are you confusing union participation and union workmanship?

work·man·ship
/ˈwərkmənˌSHip/
noun
noun: workmanship
  1. the degree of skill with which a product is made or a job done.
    "cracks on the bridge girders were caused by poor workmanship"

You mean that there's no bottom as to how bad union products can be? Chinese stuff is looking a whole lot better now!

After that idiotic comment, you deserve a meme.

Hey, you're the idiot who thinks decreasing workmanship is a good thing. I usually like German products because they are made with a high degree of  workmanship most of the time, but if they decrease workmanship I would not buy those products for the price they ask. I would rather unions increase workmanship than decrease workmanship. A decrease in union workmanship in this country means a decrease in product quality and seems to be the reason people want foreign products.

Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

 

Stanky posted:

Nope, from my experience, unions promote shoddy work, they protect people who should be given one 'shape up or ship out' before they're fired and they don't really improve the economy when the place shuts down. I will say one thing, a few years after I left that place; a lot of folks didn't need to reincarnate when karma came calling. At least everyone had someone they could talk to in the unemployment office.

I will give craft unions some respect, from my experience more than half of the union halls and members act like the old European guilds and craftsmen. Someone doing shoddy work or loafing often had another union member in his face.

Stanky posted:

"Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality."

Yep, totally agree! That's why many union jobs were replaced by robots which seems to be why the quality of US products has increased. I never have heard of a robot coming to work drunk or strung out on drugs.

 

Ok...You're double talking yourself. You can't believe a decrease in union workmanship equals a decrease in quality and unions promote shoddy work. Those two things are mutually exclusive.

To put it simply... you said.. Unions put out good work but promote shoddy work.

 

 

Put down the reefer and read real slowly...If a union's workmanship increases, then quality increases. If a union's workmanship decreases, then quality decreases. Therefore a decrease in union workmanship equals a decrease in quality, unless I'm in the bizzarro universe.

If you wanted to say that a decrease in the number of unions equals a decrease in quality, you should have said so and I would greatly disagree.

I don't have a clue what kinda crack you smoke, but I said 'a decrease in union workmanship'.. the quality of work preformed by union workers... You must be in bizzarro world. In no world did I remotely reference the number of unions... I was specifically talking about the quality of work preformed by union workers. Are you confusing union participation and union workmanship?

work·man·ship
/ˈwərkmənˌSHip/
noun
noun: workmanship
  1. the degree of skill with which a product is made or a job done.
    "cracks on the bridge girders were caused by poor workmanship"

You mean that there's no bottom as to how bad union products can be? Chinese stuff is looking a whole lot better now!

After that idiotic comment, you deserve a meme.

Hey, you're the idiot who thinks decreasing workmanship is a good thing. I usually like German products because they are made with a high degree of  workmanship most of the time, but if they decrease workmanship I would not buy those products for the price they ask. I would rather unions increase workmanship than decrease workmanship. A decrease in union workmanship in this country means a decrease in product quality and seems to be the reason people want foreign products.

Did you wake up and start the crack pipe again? You've just argued the exact opposite last night. I'm the one that said ' a decrease in Union workmanship equals a decrease in quality'. It's plainly in black and white, in this topic. You quoted it at least a half a dozen times and argued the opposite. You can't be this stupid.

I quit.. you win..

I refuse to participate in your circular argument.

L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

 

Stanky posted:

Nope, from my experience, unions promote shoddy work, they protect people who should be given one 'shape up or ship out' before they're fired and they don't really improve the economy when the place shuts down. I will say one thing, a few years after I left that place; a lot of folks didn't need to reincarnate when karma came calling. At least everyone had someone they could talk to in the unemployment office.

I will give craft unions some respect, from my experience more than half of the union halls and members act like the old European guilds and craftsmen. Someone doing shoddy work or loafing often had another union member in his face.

Stanky posted:

"Decrease in Union workmanship equals decrease in quality."

Yep, totally agree! That's why many union jobs were replaced by robots which seems to be why the quality of US products has increased. I never have heard of a robot coming to work drunk or strung out on drugs.

 

Ok...You're double talking yourself. You can't believe a decrease in union workmanship equals a decrease in quality and unions promote shoddy work. Those two things are mutually exclusive.

To put it simply... you said.. Unions put out good work but promote shoddy work.

 

 

Put down the reefer and read real slowly...If a union's workmanship increases, then quality increases. If a union's workmanship decreases, then quality decreases. Therefore a decrease in union workmanship equals a decrease in quality, unless I'm in the bizzarro universe.

If you wanted to say that a decrease in the number of unions equals a decrease in quality, you should have said so and I would greatly disagree.

I don't have a clue what kinda crack you smoke, but I said 'a decrease in union workmanship'.. the quality of work preformed by union workers... You must be in bizzarro world. In no world did I remotely reference the number of unions... I was specifically talking about the quality of work preformed by union workers. Are you confusing union participation and union workmanship?

work·man·ship
/ˈwərkmənˌSHip/
noun
noun: workmanship
  1. the degree of skill with which a product is made or a job done.
    "cracks on the bridge girders were caused by poor workmanship"

You mean that there's no bottom as to how bad union products can be? Chinese stuff is looking a whole lot better now!

After that idiotic comment, you deserve a meme.

Hey, you're the idiot who thinks decreasing workmanship is a good thing. I usually like German products because they are made with a high degree of  workmanship most of the time, but if they decrease workmanship I would not buy those products for the price they ask. I would rather unions increase workmanship than decrease workmanship. A decrease in union workmanship in this country means a decrease in product quality and seems to be the reason people want foreign products.

Did you wake up and start the crack pipe again? You've just argued the exact opposite last night. I'm the one that said ' a decrease in Union workmanship equals a decrease in quality'. It's plainly in black and white, in this topic. You quoted it at least a half a dozen times and argued the opposite. You can't be this stupid.

I quit.. you win..

I refuse to participate in your circular argument.

Yep, a decrease in union workmanship equals an even more shoddy product just like a decrease in nonunion workmanship leads to a decrease in quality. At least the employees in the nonunion factory that are doing crappy work can be replaced before they put everyone else in the unemployment line.

Well quite a run on the union topic.  As a current union member and conservative I can say both sides are partially right.

A union worker can be easily fired for just cause it happens all the time.  

A union worker cannot have new rules, pay or retirement forced on them.  Thus is why I still have a traditional A fund retirement and my fellow company non union employees do not.

PATCO was a illegal strike period, they got what they deserved for breaking the law.

Unions would not exist without bad management. Per Dr Demming the father of quailty and productivity.  

Off shoring labor has little to do with unions and all to do with cheap 3 rd world labor.  Asia is already becoming too expensive for bean counters the big companies are eying the last great population of truly cheap labor in Africa.

Yes, sometimes unions go too far, but usually compromise is reached as it is in both parties intrest to be profitable. The exception to this are public service unions where votes count and the cost is simply passed on to the taxpayers.

Modern companies have no respect for employee loyalty as in the past and this is sad.

Yes my union does somethings I do not agree with but so do friends and family.  I would not have the pay or retirement I have without the union.

Finally I would add that much of this Chinese made stuff is inferior trash, it is simply the companies have gotten us used to this level of quality.

HIFLYER2 posted:

Well quite a run on the union topic.  As a current union member and conservative I can say both sides are partially right.

A union worker can be easily fired for just cause it happens all the time.  

A union worker cannot have new rules, pay or retirement forced on them.  Thus is why I still have a traditional A fund retirement and my fellow company non union employees do not.

PATCO was a illegal strike period, they got what they deserved for breaking the law.

Unions would not exist without bad management. Per Dr Demming the father of quailty and productivity.  

Off shoring labor has little to do with unions and all to do with cheap 3 rd world labor.  Asia is already becoming too expensive for bean counters the big companies are eying the last great population of truly cheap labor in Africa.

Yes, sometimes unions go too far, but usually compromise is reached as it is in both parties intrest to be profitable. The exception to this are public service unions where votes count and the cost is simply passed on to the taxpayers.

Modern companies have no respect for employee loyalty as in the past and this is sad.

Yes my union does somethings I do not agree with but so do friends and family.  I would not have the pay or retirement I have without the union.

Finally I would add that much of this Chinese made stuff is inferior trash, it is simply the companies have gotten us used to this level of quality.

My bad experience with unions happened in the 70s. I believe that from the early or mid 80s to about 2000 that management and labor, both union and nonunion, buried the hatchet and managers became less imperious and workers more conscientious. At least one could remove a bad apple after jumping fewer hoops and hurdles. I remember rolling the Deming Wheel around meetings and pay often involved a decent paycheck with a performance bonus or profit sharing checks for both managers and regular employees. Much of that changed after some trade deals:

The High Cost of the China-WTO Deal

Administration’s own analysis suggests spiraling deficits, job losses

https://www.epi.org/publication/issuebriefs_ib137/

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