In the debate over “fairness,” my statist friends mistakenly see the economy as a fixed pie. This leads them to claim that rich people are rich because poor people are poor.

But there’s no data to support this position (other than in kleptocracies such as Venezuela where a ruling socialist elite steals wealth).

So some folks on the left will back down from that extreme claim and instead assert that the rich are the only ones enjoying more prosperity as time goes by.

For evidence, they cite data showing that incomes have been mostly flat over the past 30-40 years for poor people and middle-class people, particularly when compared to the rich.

But there’s a big problem with their data. They look at income levels in some past year and then they compare that data with income levels in a recent year.

But, as I wrote back in 2015, this means they are comparing apples and oranges.

There is considerable income mobility in the United States, which means today’s rich and today’s poor won’t necessarily be tomorrow’s rich and tomorrow’s poor.

I don’t necessarily expect people to automatically believe me. So if you’re one of the skeptics, watch this video from Russ Roberts. It is almost eight minutes and it is filled with rigor and data, but it’s worth watching since it masterfully demonstrates that lower-income and middle-class households actually enjoy larger gains than rich households.

As Russ says, you have to follow the same people over time if you want legitimate analysis.

And he shares lots of data showing that the rich actually have smaller-than-average gains in income over time.

It’s also worthwhile to investigate what happens with families over time. What we find is that children from poor households are more likely to exceed their parents’ income than children from rich households.

In other words, Russ’ conclusion was right. The American dream still exists. And if we can convince politicians to focus on growth, we can achieve better outcomes for people of all income levels.

https://www.cnsnews.com/commen...ecause-poor-are-poor

America is Still Free to a Fault

Original Post

CEO's salary has gone up 300%+, over the last 25 years. Worker's pay has gone up just about 2%. The rich many not be rich because the poor are poor, but the rich are taking all the profit and the workers are making zero gains. The exact opposite of what Republicans claim, when talking about the Trump Tax Breaks.

"In other words, Russ’ conclusion was right. The American dream still exists. And if we can convince politicians to focus on growth, we can achieve better outcomes for people of all income levels".

And if we can keep the democrats from taking it from productive people and giving it to the professional gimmethats...illegals...and other foreigners they allow to come in and take over the country and it's businesses...while those foreigners in turn bring in more foreigners and give them American's jobs and put them in our political offices.

Jutu posted:

"In other words, Russ’ conclusion was right. The American dream still exists. And if we can convince politicians to focus on growth, we can achieve better outcomes for people of all income levels".

And if we can keep the democrats from taking it from productive people and giving it to the professional gimmethats...illegals...and other foreigners they allow to come in and take over the country and it's businesses...while those foreigners in turn bring in more foreigners and give them American's jobs and put them in our political offices.

You do understand the above article, that you're referencing, states the exact opposite of what you stated, right?

L. Cranston posted:

CEO's salary has gone up 300%+, over the last 25 years. Worker's pay has gone up just about 2%. The rich many not be rich because the poor are poor, but the rich are taking all the profit and the workers are making zero gains. The exact opposite of what Republicans claim, when talking about the Trump Tax Breaks.

You do know that it was those dammed evil republicans like President Bill Clinton, Speaker of the House Tom Foley, and Majority Leader of the Senate George Mitchell who championed the change of executive pay in 1993, right!

Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

CEO's salary has gone up 300%+, over the last 25 years. Worker's pay has gone up just about 2%. The rich many not be rich because the poor are poor, but the rich are taking all the profit and the workers are making zero gains. The exact opposite of what Republicans claim, when talking about the Trump Tax Breaks.

You do know that it was those dammed evil republicans like President Bill Clinton, Speaker of the House Tom Foley, and Majority Leader of the Senate George Mitchell who championed the change of executive pay in 1993, right!

You do know that is was those dammed evil Republicans like Ronald Reagan that began busting up Unions and taking away the rights to 'collective bargain', back in the 80's, right?

L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

CEO's salary has gone up 300%+, over the last 25 years. Worker's pay has gone up just about 2%. The rich many not be rich because the poor are poor, but the rich are taking all the profit and the workers are making zero gains. The exact opposite of what Republicans claim, when talking about the Trump Tax Breaks.

You do know that it was those dammed evil republicans like President Bill Clinton, Speaker of the House Tom Foley, and Majority Leader of the Senate George Mitchell who championed the change of executive pay in 1993, right!

You do know that is was those dammed evil Republicans like Ronald Reagan that began busting up Unions and taking away the rights to 'collective bargain', back in the 80's, right?

Using the lefty daily cossack, I suspect that union busting predates Reagan, but I think he would gladly take the blame:

Graph showing the union membership rate and middle class share of the national income declining together.

https://www.dailykos.com/stori...hould-support-unions

L. Cranston posted:

Republicans are known for their hate for Unions and have written many laws limiting collective bargaining. Union membership and middle class Americans have a lot in common. Getting rid of one will eliminate the other. Republicans will never see the correlation.

And unions are noted for being as greedy and unreasonable as the people who sit on the other side of negotiation table. After LBJ sidelined millions of employable people on the goobermint plantation, unions felt they could demand anything and get it, but reality bit them in the butt. There were many more millions of foreign workers who would work harder for less and not show up for work drunk. 

Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

Republicans are known for their hate for Unions and have written many laws limiting collective bargaining. Union membership and middle class Americans have a lot in common. Getting rid of one will eliminate the other. Republicans will never see the correlation.

And unions are noted for being as greedy and unreasonable as the people who sit on the other side of negotiation table. After LBJ sidelined millions of employable people on the goobermint plantation, unions felt they could demand anything and get it, but reality bit them in the butt. There were many more millions of foreign workers who would work harder for less and not show up for work drunk. 

And thus the Republican talking point reemerges. They've mastered the art of repeating the same lie until the people believe it. Without Unions, corporations run right over the worker's rights. Republicans hate of Unions has destroyed the middle class.

L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

Republicans are known for their hate for Unions and have written many laws limiting collective bargaining. Union membership and middle class Americans have a lot in common. Getting rid of one will eliminate the other. Republicans will never see the correlation.

And unions are noted for being as greedy and unreasonable as the people who sit on the other side of negotiation table. After LBJ sidelined millions of employable people on the goobermint plantation, unions felt they could demand anything and get it, but reality bit them in the butt. There were many more millions of foreign workers who would work harder for less and not show up for work drunk. 

And thus the Republican talking point reemerges. They've mastered the art of repeating the same lie until the people believe it. Without Unions, corporations run right over the worker's rights. Republicans hate of Unions has destroyed the middle class.

And Dem's hate of reality and the truth is really evident. Right now we have millions of illegal aliens taking jobs and welfare that was intended for US citizens and Dems are trying to flood the US with millions more. That action deflates wages and ensures that if a business unionizes and the union asks for too much, then the business closes and settles elsewhere. Actually, I wouldn't mind a more open immigration policy, but only if there's no free stuff waiting for the immigrants. We're going broke fast enough as it is with the past promises we can't pay for.

I should note that most of the thriving unions are public sector unions which give campaign cash to Dems and buy over generous pay and benefits. Blue states and cities are going bankrupt.

Dems only care about political power and the bottom line of their crony capitalists. What a bunch of crocodile tears they shed when they talk about the working class.

Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

Republicans are known for their hate for Unions and have written many laws limiting collective bargaining. Union membership and middle class Americans have a lot in common. Getting rid of one will eliminate the other. Republicans will never see the correlation.

And unions are noted for being as greedy and unreasonable as the people who sit on the other side of negotiation table. After LBJ sidelined millions of employable people on the goobermint plantation, unions felt they could demand anything and get it, but reality bit them in the butt. There were many more millions of foreign workers who would work harder for less and not show up for work drunk. 

And thus the Republican talking point reemerges. They've mastered the art of repeating the same lie until the people believe it. Without Unions, corporations run right over the worker's rights. Republicans hate of Unions has destroyed the middle class.

And Dem's hate of reality and the truth is really evident. Right now we have millions of illegal aliens taking jobs and welfare that was intended for US citizens and Dems are trying to flood the US with millions more. That action deflates wages and ensures that if a business unionizes and the union asks for too much, then the business closes and settles elsewhere. Actually, I wouldn't mind a more open immigration policy, but only if there's no free stuff waiting for the immigrants. We're going broke fast enough as it is with the past promises we can't pay for.

I should note that most of the thriving unions are public sector unions which give campaign cash to Dems and buy over generous pay and benefits. Blue states and cities are going bankrupt.

Dems only care about political power and the bottom line of their crony capitalists. What a bunch of crocodile tears they shed when they talk about the working class.

You hit every Republican talking point/ propaganda line in the book, didn't you? Each and every single argument you provided has been proven wrong. Some even by other Republicans. I can write a lengthy reply that you won't read/believe or save my time for more important things like checking my eyelids for holes.

 

Illegal Immigration Hurts The Economy & Depresses Wages. Period.

 

Illegal Immigration Harms America’s Economy & US Workers

The left and the neocons screech at the same pitch when it comes to illegal immigration—they both love it.

Liberals get to “feel good” about helping poor, innocent dreamers (even if it’s our own people that are often the victims).  Meanwhile, the globalist elites (the plutocrats, politicians, and big business) are busy importing a pseudo-serf class to mow their lawns and clean their toilets.

Either way, both sides try to convince the average American that illegal immigration’s in their best interests.

How?

They appeal to the lowest common denominator: the economy.

In this article, I’m going to walk you through some of the logic, and show you that illegal immigration is actually causing an economic disaster.

More Illegals Means More People—And Lower Wages For American Workers

You’ve heard of the law of supply and demand?  It’s how the free market determines prices.

When demand goes up, prices go up (more people bid up the price).  Conversely, when supply goes up, prices go down (there’s lots to go around, so there’s no urgency); and vice versa.

Supply and demand applies to the cost of gasoline, apples, and to a person’s labor—if lots of people can do your job, you’ll get paid less, since employers have their pick of the litter.

A bigger labor supply gives bargaining power to employers: they don’t have to pay a decent wage, since so many people want the job, and they don’t have to give you a raise—if you don’t like it, they’ll hire someone else who does.

They’ll hire an illegal.  Don’t like it?  Too bad.

The fact is that America’s labor market has been flooded with 11-33 million illegal immigrants (depending on who you ask) looking for work.

This drives wages down. Period.

Illegal Aliens Work Under The Table, For Cheap

Illegals work off-the-books, making less than minimum wage, and they don’t get benefits that citizen’s would get etc.

Basically, illegals undercut the labor market’s mandated floor, pulling the rug out from American workers—there’s no way a minimum wage worker can compete against someone working for $2 a day.

This means their impact on US wages is even bigger than it would otherwise be.

Wages aside, employers like to hire illegals because they have leverage over them: if the illegal misbehaves they can fire them no problem, and they can force them to work in crappy conditions that Americans wouldn’t.

This makes it impossible for American citizens to compete with illegal immigrants for the same jobs.

It’s why the youth unemployment rate is so high—fast food places used to be operated by teenagers, now they’re stuffed with illegals.

Debunking Some Common Leftist Lies About Illegal Immigration

I know what you’re thinking: (I) “we need illegals to do the jobs Americans won’t do,” or (II) “the economic benefits outweigh the costs”.

“Illegal Immigrants Do Jobs Americans Don’t Want To Do”

This isn’t true.  Why?

1.  There are 23 million unemployed Americans right now, and at least 11 million illegal immigrants—even if you deported every illegal and gave that job to an American, the unemployment rate would still be around 7% (we’re talking real unemployment, not the garbage “official” number).

2.  Americans are willing to work the jobs illegals do, and they currently work them in states where there aren’t illegal immigrants.

If you read this document published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, you’ll see that there are literally millions of Americans, white, black, and Hispanic, who are employed as janitors, laborers, store clerks—everything.

It’s simply not true that Americans won’t do these jobs—they can’t, because they’re being undercut by illegal immigrants.

Believe it or not, but people in states without illegal immigration (Montana or Ohio) can still afford McDonald’s and Starbucks—they just hire teenagers to do the jobs.

The same goes for entire countries, like Canada.

The fact is this: if we deported illegals from California, the labor market would begin to look more like Pennsylvania or Indiana—teenagers, and black or Hispanic Americans (who tend to be on the low-skills end of the labor market) would do the jobs, rather than be unemployed.

And even if there weren’t enough people, we could just automate.

A final note: there was a time before illegal immigration.

How do you think the jobs got done before that?

We hired teenagers and invested in better processes and technology to improve our efficiency.

“The Benefits Of Illegal Immigration Outweigh The Costs”

Nope.

Illegals are a massive drain on government resources, which leads to higher taxes.

That’s not good for anyone.

Illegals cost American taxpayers well over $100 billion a year—not to mention all the indirect costs.

Just look at California: they spend almost 20% of their government budget on illegals.  What a waste.  Citizens could use that.

Citizens deserve that.

Likewise, the drain of wealth via remittances is significant ($38 billion a year), especially when you remember that most illegal immigrants are concentrated in a few states (California, Texas, New York, Florida, Arizona etc.).

We also need to look at the opportunity cost associated with our spending on illegals—what else could we spend the money on?

Infrastructure, for one.

The American Society of Civil Engineers predicts that America’s infrastructure deficit (the money we must spend to maintain our existing roads, ports etc.) will reach $3.6 trillion by 2020.

Insufficient infrastructure costs America money.

Lots of it.

For example, traffic jams cost America $124 billion a year—almost as much as illegals.  That’s obscene, but it’s true.

If we stopped government spending on illegal immigrants, we could cut our infrastructure deficit in half by 2020, and save a pretty penny on traffic jams and airport delays—not to mention the headaches.Japan vs USA GDP per capita

I’d also like to point out that the US is the only country in the West that imports millions of illegal immigrants to work in its service jobs—other rich places, like Japan or Canada, don’t.

The whole thing is a scam by the elites to better their quality of life at the average American’s expense.

As you can see, Japan’s GDP per person growth actually outpaced America’s during the period of high illegal immigration, despite the fact that Japan didn’t have any of the “advantages” of illegal immigration.

The mainstream narrative just doesn’t fit the facts.

It’s wrong.

Illegal Immigration Is Harming America, And Its Citizens

I’ll tell you what: university professors, senators, news anchors aren’t losing their jobs to illegals.

It’s guys who work construction.

Gals who work in malls.

Ordinary folk.

I can guarantee you that if all illegal immigrants were Pulitzer-winning writers and famous actors that the borders would be shut up tighter than the gated communities where Hollywood’s elites live.

So there you have it folks.  Illegal immigration isn’t the economic panacea it’s made out to be.

Time to wake up and build the wall—both physically and metaphorically.

-------------

About Spencer P Morrison  158 Articles
J.D. B.A. in Ancient & Medieval History. Writer and independent intellectual, with a focus on applied philosophy, empirical history, and practical economics. Author of "Bobbins, Not Gold," Editor-In-Chief of the National Economics Editorial, and contributor to American Greatness. His work has appeared in publications including the Daily Caller, the American Thinker, and the Foundation for Economic Education.
 

https://nationaleconomicsedito...omy-depresses-wages/

 

L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

Republicans are known for their hate for Unions and have written many laws limiting collective bargaining. Union membership and middle class Americans have a lot in common. Getting rid of one will eliminate the other. Republicans will never see the correlation.

And unions are noted for being as greedy and unreasonable as the people who sit on the other side of negotiation table. After LBJ sidelined millions of employable people on the goobermint plantation, unions felt they could demand anything and get it, but reality bit them in the butt. There were many more millions of foreign workers who would work harder for less and not show up for work drunk. 

And thus the Republican talking point reemerges. They've mastered the art of repeating the same lie until the people believe it. Without Unions, corporations run right over the worker's rights. Republicans hate of Unions has destroyed the middle class.

And Dem's hate of reality and the truth is really evident. Right now we have millions of illegal aliens taking jobs and welfare that was intended for US citizens and Dems are trying to flood the US with millions more. That action deflates wages and ensures that if a business unionizes and the union asks for too much, then the business closes and settles elsewhere. Actually, I wouldn't mind a more open immigration policy, but only if there's no free stuff waiting for the immigrants. We're going broke fast enough as it is with the past promises we can't pay for.

I should note that most of the thriving unions are public sector unions which give campaign cash to Dems and buy over generous pay and benefits. Blue states and cities are going bankrupt.

Dems only care about political power and the bottom line of their crony capitalists. What a bunch of crocodile tears they shed when they talk about the working class.

You hit every Republican talking point/ propaganda line in the book, didn't you? Each and every single argument you provided has been proven wrong. Some even by other Republicans. I can write a lengthy reply that you won't read/believe or save my time for more important things like checking my eyelids for holes.

 

Then why don't you do so and give everyone a laugh. I'm sure you can find that propaganda under your Che poster.

Not only involved in China but hauling in illegals by the thousands to take jobs from Americans with that tired old lie "doing jobs Americans won't do". Really? Americans won't roof houses...do carpentry...lay bricks...do lawn care...do maintenance work? Foreigners buying businesses and hauling in "refugees" and giving them jobs Americans have been doing since the company began. I could go on and on.

Bush's Administration conducted a study on whether immigrants were taking American jobs. I wonder what that study said.

Republicans keep repeating the same old tired propaganda over and over and over.

Americans are tired of hearing your speech.

They're tired of Trumps tax breaks for his buddies.

They're tired of being over worked and under paid.

Republicans keep saying 'just pull yourself up by your boot straps'. The cycle repeats.

If Republicans are accusing Democrats of something, rest assured they're doing that very thing. Republicans think everyone is as sorry as a Republican.

Illegal Immigration Is Harming America, And Its Citizens

I’ll tell you what: university professors, senators, news anchors aren’t losing their jobs to illegals.

It’s guys who work construction.

Gals who work in malls.

Ordinary folk.

I can guarantee you that if all illegal immigrants were Pulitzer-winning writers and famous actors that the borders would be shut up tighter than the gated communities where Hollywood’s elites live.

So there you have it folks.  Illegal immigration isn’t the economic panacea it’s made out to be.

Time to wake up and build the wall—both physically and metaphorically.

L. Cranston posted:

Bush's Administration conducted a study on whether immigrants were taking American jobs. I wonder what that study said.

Republicans keep repeating the same old tired propaganda over and over and over.

Americans are tired of hearing your speech.

They're tired of Trumps tax breaks for his buddies.

They're tired of being over worked and under paid.

Republicans keep saying 'just pull yourself up by your boot straps'. The cycle repeats.

If Republicans are accusing Democrats of something, rest assured they're doing that very thing. Republicans think everyone is as sorry as a Republican.

You conveniently overlooked the keyword "illegal"; legal immigrants are another story. Doctors generated from the best Indian schools aren't going to be competing with low skill US citizens.

https://www.fairus.org/issue/w...liens-taking-us-jobs

Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

Bush's Administration conducted a study on whether immigrants were taking American jobs. I wonder what that study said.

Republicans keep repeating the same old tired propaganda over and over and over.

Americans are tired of hearing your speech.

They're tired of Trumps tax breaks for his buddies.

They're tired of being over worked and under paid.

Republicans keep saying 'just pull yourself up by your boot straps'. The cycle repeats.

If Republicans are accusing Democrats of something, rest assured they're doing that very thing. Republicans think everyone is as sorry as a Republican.

You conveniently overlooked the keyword "illegal"; legal immigrants are another story. Doctors generated from the best Indian schools aren't going to be competing with low skill US citizens.

https://www.fairus.org/issue/w...liens-taking-us-jobs

Check your own facts. Foreign students are graduating and going home. They can't get visas to work in a timely fashion and are not going to stay here. They're calling it 'the brain drain' on the US.  Once again, the Republican narrative doesn't fit reality. Poor Republicans just can't seem to break out of the bubble. Spoon fed their alternate facts by Fox News and the GOP.

 Are there only so many jobs in the US? Why do Presidents keep claiming they made new jobs if there are only a finite number of jobs in the US?

L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

Bush's Administration conducted a study on whether immigrants were taking American jobs. I wonder what that study said.

Republicans keep repeating the same old tired propaganda over and over and over.

Americans are tired of hearing your speech.

They're tired of Trumps tax breaks for his buddies.

They're tired of being over worked and under paid.

Republicans keep saying 'just pull yourself up by your boot straps'. The cycle repeats.

If Republicans are accusing Democrats of something, rest assured they're doing that very thing. Republicans think everyone is as sorry as a Republican.

You conveniently overlooked the keyword "illegal"; legal immigrants are another story. Doctors generated from the best Indian schools aren't going to be competing with low skill US citizens.

https://www.fairus.org/issue/w...liens-taking-us-jobs

Check your own facts. Foreign students are graduating and going home. They can't get visas to work in a timely fashion and are not going to stay here. They're calling it 'the brain drain' on the US.  Once again, the Republican narrative doesn't fit reality. Poor Republicans just can't seem to break out of the bubble. Spoon fed their alternate facts by Fox News and the GOP.

 Are there only so many jobs in the US? Why do Presidents keep claiming they made new jobs if there are only a finite number of jobs in the US?

Whether they stay or not, those students are legal; they have student visas. The topic is illegal immigrants.

https://thehill.com/opinion/im...-illegal-immigration

https://spectator.org/the-cost...e-to-illegal-aliens/

https://nationalcenter.org/pro...e-and-black-america/

 

Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

Bush's Administration conducted a study on whether immigrants were taking American jobs. I wonder what that study said.

Republicans keep repeating the same old tired propaganda over and over and over.

Americans are tired of hearing your speech.

They're tired of Trumps tax breaks for his buddies.

They're tired of being over worked and under paid.

Republicans keep saying 'just pull yourself up by your boot straps'. The cycle repeats.

If Republicans are accusing Democrats of something, rest assured they're doing that very thing. Republicans think everyone is as sorry as a Republican.

You conveniently overlooked the keyword "illegal"; legal immigrants are another story. Doctors generated from the best Indian schools aren't going to be competing with low skill US citizens.

https://www.fairus.org/issue/w...liens-taking-us-jobs

Check your own facts. Foreign students are graduating and going home. They can't get visas to work in a timely fashion and are not going to stay here. They're calling it 'the brain drain' on the US.  Once again, the Republican narrative doesn't fit reality. Poor Republicans just can't seem to break out of the bubble. Spoon fed their alternate facts by Fox News and the GOP.

 Are there only so many jobs in the US? Why do Presidents keep claiming they made new jobs if there are only a finite number of jobs in the US?

Whether they stay or not, those students are legal; they have student visas. The topic is illegal immigrants.

https://thehill.com/opinion/im...-illegal-immigration

https://spectator.org/the-cost...e-to-illegal-aliens/

https://nationalcenter.org/pro...e-and-black-america/

 

They can't get work visas. Pay attention.

The topic is how the rich aren't rich because the poor are poor. In other words, there's not a finite amount of money, new money can be made.
The same argument applies to jobs, silly.

L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

Bush's Administration conducted a study on whether immigrants were taking American jobs. I wonder what that study said.

Republicans keep repeating the same old tired propaganda over and over and over.

Americans are tired of hearing your speech.

They're tired of Trumps tax breaks for his buddies.

They're tired of being over worked and under paid.

Republicans keep saying 'just pull yourself up by your boot straps'. The cycle repeats.

If Republicans are accusing Democrats of something, rest assured they're doing that very thing. Republicans think everyone is as sorry as a Republican.

You conveniently overlooked the keyword "illegal"; legal immigrants are another story. Doctors generated from the best Indian schools aren't going to be competing with low skill US citizens.

https://www.fairus.org/issue/w...liens-taking-us-jobs

Check your own facts. Foreign students are graduating and going home. They can't get visas to work in a timely fashion and are not going to stay here. They're calling it 'the brain drain' on the US.  Once again, the Republican narrative doesn't fit reality. Poor Republicans just can't seem to break out of the bubble. Spoon fed their alternate facts by Fox News and the GOP.

 Are there only so many jobs in the US? Why do Presidents keep claiming they made new jobs if there are only a finite number of jobs in the US?

Whether they stay or not, those students are legal; they have student visas. The topic is illegal immigrants.

https://thehill.com/opinion/im...-illegal-immigration

https://spectator.org/the-cost...e-to-illegal-aliens/

https://nationalcenter.org/pro...e-and-black-america/

 

They can't get work visas. Pay attention.

The topic is how the rich aren't rich because the poor are poor. In other words, there's not a finite amount of money, new money can be made.
The same argument applies to jobs, silly.

We were conversing about illegal aliens ; you are attempting to steer the conversation away from a losing point. As for foreign students not getting jobs, blame that on the stupid system we've had for years that will languish for a long time more in our stupid congress as they chase impeachment and other punishments because Trump won :

Obtaining an H-1B visa, which is allocated through a lottery system, has become increasingly hard in the past few years. The Department of Homeland Security currently caps the amount of H-1B visas granted at 65,000 per fiscal year, with an additional 20,000 reserved for applicants with advanced degrees. Last year, DHS received an overwhelming 233,000 H-1B petitions in as little as a week; only a little over one-third of petitioners received one of the sought-after visas.

https://www.thedp.com/article/...al-students-graduate

The article is from the Ol'bama idiot years and not the Trump era. Better now!

 

Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

Bush's Administration conducted a study on whether immigrants were taking American jobs. I wonder what that study said.

Republicans keep repeating the same old tired propaganda over and over and over.

Americans are tired of hearing your speech.

They're tired of Trumps tax breaks for his buddies.

They're tired of being over worked and under paid.

Republicans keep saying 'just pull yourself up by your boot straps'. The cycle repeats.

If Republicans are accusing Democrats of something, rest assured they're doing that very thing. Republicans think everyone is as sorry as a Republican.

You conveniently overlooked the keyword "illegal"; legal immigrants are another story. Doctors generated from the best Indian schools aren't going to be competing with low skill US citizens.

https://www.fairus.org/issue/w...liens-taking-us-jobs

Check your own facts. Foreign students are graduating and going home. They can't get visas to work in a timely fashion and are not going to stay here. They're calling it 'the brain drain' on the US.  Once again, the Republican narrative doesn't fit reality. Poor Republicans just can't seem to break out of the bubble. Spoon fed their alternate facts by Fox News and the GOP.

 Are there only so many jobs in the US? Why do Presidents keep claiming they made new jobs if there are only a finite number of jobs in the US?

Whether they stay or not, those students are legal; they have student visas. The topic is illegal immigrants.

https://thehill.com/opinion/im...-illegal-immigration

https://spectator.org/the-cost...e-to-illegal-aliens/

https://nationalcenter.org/pro...e-and-black-america/

 

They can't get work visas. Pay attention.

The topic is how the rich aren't rich because the poor are poor. In other words, there's not a finite amount of money, new money can be made.
The same argument applies to jobs, silly.

We were conversing about illegal aliens ; you are attempting to steer the conversation away from a losing point. As for foreign students not getting jobs, blame that on the stupid system we've had for years that will languish for a long time more in our stupid congress as they chase impeachment and other punishments because Trump won :

Obtaining an H-1B visa, which is allocated through a lottery system, has become increasingly hard in the past few years. The Department of Homeland Security currently caps the amount of H-1B visas granted at 65,000 per fiscal year, with an additional 20,000 reserved for applicants with advanced degrees. Last year, DHS received an overwhelming 233,000 H-1B petitions in as little as a week; only a little over one-third of petitioners received one of the sought-after visas.

https://www.thedp.com/article/...al-students-graduate

The article is from the Ol'bama idiot years and not the Trump era. Better now!

 

 

You can't believe there's an unending supply of money and not jobs. I asked a simple question and you're trying to deflect to immigration. This topic isn't about immigration.

Republicans: They're only sending us the bad people

also Republicans: Let the students leave if they can't get a visa. who cares.

L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

Bush's Administration conducted a study on whether immigrants were taking American jobs. I wonder what that study said.

Republicans keep repeating the same old tired propaganda over and over and over.

Americans are tired of hearing your speech.

They're tired of Trumps tax breaks for his buddies.

They're tired of being over worked and under paid.

Republicans keep saying 'just pull yourself up by your boot straps'. The cycle repeats.

If Republicans are accusing Democrats of something, rest assured they're doing that very thing. Republicans think everyone is as sorry as a Republican.

You conveniently overlooked the keyword "illegal"; legal immigrants are another story. Doctors generated from the best Indian schools aren't going to be competing with low skill US citizens.

https://www.fairus.org/issue/w...liens-taking-us-jobs

Check your own facts. Foreign students are graduating and going home. They can't get visas to work in a timely fashion and are not going to stay here. They're calling it 'the brain drain' on the US.  Once again, the Republican narrative doesn't fit reality. Poor Republicans just can't seem to break out of the bubble. Spoon fed their alternate facts by Fox News and the GOP.

 Are there only so many jobs in the US? Why do Presidents keep claiming they made new jobs if there are only a finite number of jobs in the US?

Whether they stay or not, those students are legal; they have student visas. The topic is illegal immigrants.

https://thehill.com/opinion/im...-illegal-immigration

https://spectator.org/the-cost...e-to-illegal-aliens/

https://nationalcenter.org/pro...e-and-black-america/

 

They can't get work visas. Pay attention.

The topic is how the rich aren't rich because the poor are poor. In other words, there's not a finite amount of money, new money can be made.
The same argument applies to jobs, silly.

We were conversing about illegal aliens ; you are attempting to steer the conversation away from a losing point. As for foreign students not getting jobs, blame that on the stupid system we've had for years that will languish for a long time more in our stupid congress as they chase impeachment and other punishments because Trump won :

Obtaining an H-1B visa, which is allocated through a lottery system, has become increasingly hard in the past few years. The Department of Homeland Security currently caps the amount of H-1B visas granted at 65,000 per fiscal year, with an additional 20,000 reserved for applicants with advanced degrees. Last year, DHS received an overwhelming 233,000 H-1B petitions in as little as a week; only a little over one-third of petitioners received one of the sought-after visas.

https://www.thedp.com/article/...al-students-graduate

The article is from the Ol'bama idiot years and not the Trump era. Better now!

 

 

You can't believe there's an unending supply of money and not jobs. I asked a simple question and you're trying to deflect to immigration. This topic isn't about immigration.

Republicans: They're only sending us the bad people

also Republicans: Let the students leave if they can't get a visa. who cares.

Before you divert your attention again, there have been something like 5-7 million unfilled jobs at any time for the last year or two:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/1...7point3-million.html

There are over 200 million people of employment age in this country:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LFWA64TTUSM647S

The size of the US workforce is over 162 million:

https://data.bls.gov/pdq/Surve...mp;request_action=wh

Whether or not US citizens or furrinors take those jobs, they are available, provided those people actually can do those jobs. As to those students, it's about winning the visa lotto right now. Congress could do something about the immigration laws if they so desired; I believe Trump has already said he wants those students to stay, but Dems want more cheap gardeners and maids than professional people:

https://economictimes.indiatim...cleshow/67392664.cms

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So, you agree we can make more jobs. You agree we have unfilled jobs and yet, you whine about immigrants taking jobs? What part of that makes any sense?

Immigrants pay more into the system than they get out. Republicans will never admit it, no matter how many reports show the facts. The Republican narrative can't include that fact or the whole thing falls apart. Immigrants pay more in taxes than they get back out of the system ... that's a fact.

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/e...fect-the-u-s-economy

Now, are you done trying to scream about immigrants?

Can we get back to the topic of the discussion or any of the other Republican propaganda points you tried to make.

 

L. Cranston posted:

So, you agree we can make more jobs. You agree we have unfilled jobs and yet, you whine about immigrants taking jobs? What part of that makes any sense?

Immigrants pay more into the system than they get out. Republicans will never admit it, no matter how many reports show the facts. The Republican narrative can't include that fact or the whole thing falls apart. Immigrants pay more in taxes than they get back out of the system ... that's a fact.

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/e...fect-the-u-s-economy

Now, are you done trying to scream about immigrants?

Can we get back to the topic of the discussion or any of the other Republican propaganda points you tried to make.

 

Again, let me make this simple for you; legal immigrants with skills, good; low skilled tax dollar sucking illegal immigrants, bad. Try not to divert the subject anymore on immigration.

The costs of illegal immigration are comprehensive. Even after deducting the $19 billion in taxes paid by illegal immigrants, the 12.5 million of them living in the country results in a $116 billion burden on the economy and taxpayers each year. About two-thirds of this amount is absorbed by local and state taxpayers, who are often the least unable to share the costs.

One of the major drivers of the increasing costs is the 4.2 million children of migrants, who automatically become American citizens. Taxpayers are indeed on the hook for over $45 billion in state and federal education spending annually, not to mention the added burden of increased social welfare dollars. Much of the almost $30 billion in medical and assistance funding is sparked by the fact that noncitizen families in the United States are twice as likely to receive welfare payments than native born families.

A full half of noncitizens receive Medicaid, compared to 23 percent of native born citizens, while almost half of noncitizens are on food stamps. Of particular concern is that noncitizens who stay in the long term are more likely to use these programs than those who just arrived. Half of new noncitizens receive welfare, but the figure jumps to a stunning 70 percent among those who have been in the United States for more than 10 years

https://thehill.com/opinion/im...-illegal-immigration

As to making more jobs for good citizens and good immigrants, if goobermint can stay out the way, oh hell yeah the economy can employ more people if Adam Smith is at the reins and not Karl Marx. That assumes that people want to work. That also assumes we don't give away the farm again in trade deals as during the 90s and future Congresses and presidents don't over tax industries where foreign goods become much cheaper.

Like tariffs, taxing domestic goods and services is a tax on the consumer. The difference is that a tariff advantages domestic companies where regular taxation is paid by an increase in the price of the domestic product.

L. Cranston posted:

I give you facts and you back your argument with an opinion piece and ignore the facts presented to you. You really are living in the bubble, aren't you?

If I might point out the obvious to the oblivious, your 'facts' are about immigrants. The facts I gave are for illegal immigrants.

Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

I give you facts and you back your argument with an opinion piece and ignore the facts presented to you. You really are living in the bubble, aren't you?

If I might point out the obvious to the oblivious, your 'facts' are about immigrants. The facts I gave are for illegal immigrants.

If I may address your willingness to ignore the facts. My source information covers all immigrants. If you'd read the presented article, it shows facts for both illegal and legal immigrants. You keep screaming about illegal immigrants and I addressed that about two hours ago. Please, try to keep up.
Your 'facts' are from an opinion piece. Check your own source. It's written on the page twice.

Stanky posted:

Something more to chew on:

63% of Non-Citizen Households Access Welfare Programs

Compared to 35% of native households

https://cis.org/Report/63-NonC...ess-Welfare-Programs

"Trump expands the list of programs considered 'welfare programs'"... the first sentence of the article presented. That's funny. Again, a source that is an opinion piece from a man KNOWN to favor immigration restrictions.

If you're so right, why can't you present facts instead of a stead flow of like-mined opinions?

L. Cranston posted:
Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

I give you facts and you back your argument with an opinion piece and ignore the facts presented to you. You really are living in the bubble, aren't you?

If I might point out the obvious to the oblivious, your 'facts' are about immigrants. The facts I gave are for illegal immigrants.

If I may address your willingness to ignore the facts. My source information covers all immigrants. If you'd read the presented article, it shows facts for both illegal and legal immigrants. You keep screaming about illegal immigrants and I addressed that about two hours ago. Please, try to keep up.
Your 'facts' are from an opinion piece. Check your own source. It's written on the page twice.

And NPR is a rather leftist biased organization that blended legal immigrants and illegal immigrants to get it's desired result. That opinion piece I posted from had a link to this report entirely devoted to illegal immigration costs:

https://www.fairus.org/issue/p...ted-states-taxpayers

 

L. Cranston posted:

Now, for about the third time, I didn't come into this topic to discuss immigrants. Can you please address the , at least, 4 other Republican propaganda lines you tossed out, too?

I believe you tossed out liberal Dem memes that I responded to. It was Dems who changed CEO pay, it was unions who busted themselves by over pricing their labor, and illegal aliens price out US legal labor. Also the rich aren't rich because the poor are poor, the poor have all the problems they can handle from benevolent politicians.

NPR is one of the most reliable news sources available. Any fact checking site will be glad to tell you that.

I haven't posted any memes.

Republican 'right to work laws' were designed to weaken the unions.

Reagan busted the first union, in my lifetime, as a POTUS.

A social safety net is a horrible thing, says Republicans.

Are you even reading the posts?

 

L. Cranston posted:

NPR is one of the most reliable news sources available. Any fact checking site will be glad to tell you that.

I haven't posted any memes.

Republican 'right to work laws' were designed to weaken the unions.

Reagan busted the first union, in my lifetime, as a POTUS.

A social safety net is a horrible thing, says Republicans.

Are you even reading the posts?

 

Jeffrey Dvorkin, a NPR ombudsman did admit to liberal bias at NPR.

You post liberal ideas that often are false or misleading, but often spread like wildfire on the interweb.

Union membership was already falling before Reagan and the 'right to work' laws:

File:Union membership in us 1930-2010.png

https://commons.wikimedia.org/..._in_us_1930-2010.png

I believe most republicans believe in a social safety net, but not a welfare lifestyle.

I also read your posts, but I often discount the quality of liberal sites.

 

Stanky posted:
L. Cranston posted:

NPR is one of the most reliable news sources available. Any fact checking site will be glad to tell you that.

I haven't posted any memes.

Republican 'right to work laws' were designed to weaken the unions.

Reagan busted the first union, in my lifetime, as a POTUS.

A social safety net is a horrible thing, says Republicans.

Are you even reading the posts?

 

Jeffrey Dvorkin, a NPR ombudsman did admit to liberal bias at NPR.

You post liberal ideas that often are false or misleading, but often spread like wildfire on the interweb.

Union membership was already falling before Reagan and the 'right to work' laws:

File:Union membership in us 1930-2010.png

https://commons.wikimedia.org/..._in_us_1930-2010.png

I believe most republicans believe in a social safety net, but not a welfare lifestyle.

I also read your posts, but I often discount the quality of liberal sites.

 

You do see the slope of the graph you posted make a sharp turn around 1980, right? Your own sources prove Reagan had a LOT to do with the decrease in union membership. Right to work laws were started around that same time frame, as well. Your own source material shows the facts. Why can't you get it.

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