The stations of the cross-response to mr. gray

Jeez, Bill, read the Gospel accounts of the Passion of Our Lord. Most churches have them on the walls. Your ilk do not in your chapels. "O Lord, by Thy Stripes and Thy Cross Thou has redeemed us."

You ought to try doing all 14 in a garden or around the church yard some time or another, very moving.

On Good Friday the elements left from Maundy Thursday service will be consumed, the Seven Final Words from the Cross proclaimed and the people leave services in silence one by one. Then women will come up, the presence lamp will be lowered and extinguished, the altar stripped and the tabernacle veil opened and unlocked and opened, and the church will be dark until sunset Saturday, when the ancient rite of lighting New Fire will be performed outside, the new Paschal Candle consecrated and it used to bless the water in the baptismal font and lit and the first Great Vigil of Easter service done in joy and the church will no longer be dark and crosses veiled, the New Year will have begun.

We proclaim alellulia once again after Lenten discipline without ceasing until next Lent.

Dude, Anglicans, Lutherans, Roman Catholics and some Methodists all do stations of the Cross and make the Phos Hilarion.

yes, indeed.
I don't think one can fully enter into the celebration of the Risen Christ until you suffer with Him.
The empty tabernacle, the profound sadness, the darkness: all of these things make that first Easter "Alleluia" SO much more meaningful.

Hi VP,

Not to be disrespectful; but the Stations of The Cross are only delineated in Roman Catholic Traditons and Catechisms. They are exclusively Roman Catholic tradition.

This is not denigrating your method of worship. But, we prefer to stick to what is told us in the Bible and avoid any confusion with books of Traditions, Rituals, or Catechisms. These types of documents we view as "commentaries" and they are used only to share the thoughts of Christian theologians and teachers on Biblical issues. They hold NO authority. Only the Bible has any Scriptural authority -- Sola Scriptura.

I respect your right to believe and worship as you desire. But, please respect the Protestant's right to do the same.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

We used to do the Stations of the Cross at the Baptist church I attended as a child.

With all due respect, you are just wrong about this.
And further, I have never onced "denied your right to believe and worship as you desire"
It's a dialogue.
If anything, you have challenged my faith at every change you got, and tried very hard to disprove the Catholic Faith.
You speak with an authority that you have all the answers- sorry, but thats not exactly respectful of other beliefs.

quote:

But, we prefer to stick to what is told us in the Bible and avoid any confusion with books of Traditions, Rituals, or Catechisms

Just curious, who is "we" ?
What is your denomination? Are you trained in theology?

quote:

Just curious, who is "we" ?
What is your denomination? Are you trained in theology

Bill is a "fundamentalist." Synonymous with "unable to reason." He is right 100% of the time and you know almost nothing compared to Him. There is only one path to salvation. He is on it. You and I are not.

Sorry, Veep, you and I both have a spot in hell awaiting us according to the Lord's personal body guard, Bill Grey.

Remember, Bill Gray is the "Saltpeter of the world." He is the ultimate authority on everything from evolution to physics to politics, why he will even enlighten you on proper aesthetics if you dare cross him! His word is the last word. Do not dare question the rapture ready!

p.s. Stations are NOT Roman Catholic, they are little c catholic, meaning universal.

Bill is so dumb he probably thinks the New Fire is a heathen ritual before a blood sacrifice of a virgin babe. Jack Chick's tracts have made him a bit soft in the head it seems.

quote:

Sorry, Veep, you and I both have a spot in hell awaiting us according to the Lord's personal body guard, Bill Grey

Alright. well at least we'll be in good company. I'm easy to get along with. You?

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:

quote:

Sorry, Veep, you and I both have a spot in hell awaiting us according to the Lord's personal body guard, Bill Grey

Alright. well at least we'll be in good company. I'm easy to get along with. You?

Pfft! I'll bring the beer and chips.

quote:

Jack Chick's tracts have made him a bit soft in the head it seems.

Har!

quote:

Not to be disrespectful; but the Stations of The Cross are only delineated in Roman Catholic Traditons and Catechisms. They are exclusively Roman Catholic tradition.

Mr Gray? Could you please clarify so that the nice people at home can be clear on this? You do now see that you were mistaken, right? Stations is not exclusive to the Catholic Church, and is taken directly from the Gospels. Do you agree with that statement?

Hi VP,

In an earlier post, I wrote, "Not to be disrespectful; but the Stations of The Cross are only delineated in Roman Catholic Traditions and Catechisms. They are exclusively Roman Catholic tradition."

And, you respond, "Mr. Gray? Could you please clarify so that the nice people at home can be clear on this? You do now see that you were mistaken, right? Stations is not exclusive to the Catholic Church, and is taken directly from the Gospels. Do you agree with that statement?"

My answer to your question has to be an unequivocal NO -- I do not agree with your statement. Why? Since you seem to want to push the issue, I will explain. But, first, let me state as clearly as I can. If praying the Stations Of The Cross makes you feel closer to God, closer to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ -- then, by all means -- do it. Just as I do not speak in tongues, but do not denigrates those who feel closer to God through this exercise -- I will not denigrate those who feel a need to pray the Stations Of The Cross.

Although I am not anti-Catholic and do not want to be seen as Roman Catholic bashing -- I will say that the Stations Of The Cross are a Roman Catholic "Tradition" and, although they are written around portions of the Gospel -- are not truly Biblical. I will explain this later in my post.

So, yes, I will be happy to respond. First, let's look at what three Roman Catholic web sites, plus the Wikipedia web site, have to say about the Stations Of The Cross:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Stations of the Cross
http://www.archdioceseofanchor...worship/Stations.htm

From the earliest of days, followers of Jesus told the story of his passion, death and resurrection. When pilgrims came to see Jerusalem, they were anxious to see the sites where Jesus was. These sites become important holy connections with Jesus. Eventually, following in the footsteps of the Lord, along the way of the cross, became a part of the pilgrimage visit. The stations, as we know them today, came about when it was no longer easy or even possible to visit the holy sites. In the 1500's, villages all over Europe started creating "replicas" of the way of the cross, with small shrines commemorating the places along the route in Jerusalem. Eventually, these shrines became the set of 14 stations we now know and were placed in almost every Catholic Church in the world.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

History of the Stations of the Cross
http://communityofhopeinc.com/...thecross/History.htm

The Stations of the Cross are a Catholic devotion which commemorates the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ. Each of the fourteen stations represents an event which occurred during Jesus' Passion and death at Calvary on Good Friday.

The Stations were originally performed many centuries ago by Christian pilgrims who visited the Holy Land and the sites of Jesus' Passion. Promotion of the devotion to the Stations began in earnest with the Franciscans, who were given custody of the Holy Places in the Holy Land in the 1300s. Countless Catholics have all enriched their spiritual lives with this powerful devotion.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

About The Stations Of The Cross
http://www.ixeh.net/faith/Stations/via-info.html

For Roman Catholics throughout the world, the Stations of the Cross are synonymous with Lent, Holy Week and, especially, Good Friday. This devotion is also known as the "Way of the Cross", the "Via Crucis", and the "Via Dolorosa." It commemorates 14 key events on day of Christ's crucifixion. The majority concern His final walk through the streets of Jerusalem, carrying the Cross.

The Stations originated in medieval Europe when wars prevented Christian pilgrims from visiting the Holy Land. European artists created works depicting scenes of Christ's journey to Calvary. The faithful installed these sculptures or paintings at intervals along a procession route, inside the parish church or outdoors. Performing the devotion meant walking the entire route, stopping to pray at each "station."

Today, images of the Stations (or simple crosses representing them) are on display in almost all Catholic churches. They serve mainly as a focus for Lenten worship services. But the Stations can also be performed privately, at any time of the year, even at home. Many organizations offer free or inexpensive, illustrated pamphlets for this purpose.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Stations of the Cross
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stations_of_the_Cross

Stations of the Cross (or Way of the Cross; in Latin, Via Crucis; also called the Via Dolorosa or Way of Sorrows, or simply, The Way) refers to the depiction of the final hours (or Passion) of Jesus, and the devotion commemorating the Passion. The tradition as chapel devotion began with St. Francis of Assisi and extended throughout the Roman Catholic Church in the medieval period. It is less often observed in the Anglican and Lutheran churches. It may be done at any time, but is most commonly done during the Season of Lent, especially on Good Friday and on Friday evenings during Lent.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, why do I say that the Stations Of The Cross are not Biblical? First, let's look at the TWO versions of the Ten Commandments -- the Ten Commandments written in the Bible -- and the Ten Commandments written in Roman Catholic Tradition:

The Bible Ten Commandments Found in Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)
http://www.the-ten-commandment...en-commandments.html

1. “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

3. “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

4. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

5. “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

6. “You shall not murder.

7. “You shall not commit adultery.

8. “You shall not steal.

9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

10. “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

AND The Roman Catholic Version:

The Ten Commandments -- Roman Catholic Tradition ersion
http://www.10commandments.biz/...en-commandments.html

1. I am the Lord your God; you shall not have strange gods before me.

2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's day

4. Honor your father and your mother.

5. You shall not kill.

6. You shall not commit adultery.

7. You shall not steal.

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

10. You shall not covet you neighbor's goods.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You will notice that, the Bible list found in Exodus 20 shows the 2nd Commandment to be: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them."

Yet, to accommodate the Roman Catholic icons such as the images found in the Stations Of The Cross -- the original 2nd Commandment was eliminated.

And, to complete the list of ten -- Roman Catholics split the 10th Commandment found in Exodus into two separate commandments, i.e, “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's” -- in Roman Catholic Tradition became: 9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife -- and, 10. You shall not covet you neighbor's goods.

Thus Roman Catholic Tradition eliminated the 2nd Commandment written by God in Exodus -- to accommodate their Tradition. And then, to make the list of Ten Commandments complete again -- divided the 10th Commandment.

This is why I say that, although we do celebrate what Jesus Christ did through His virgin birth, His very cruel crucifixion, His resurrection, and His ascension to be our Sole Mediator in heaven -- we Protestants do not celebrate the Stations Of The Cross because they are not Biblical.

And we recognize the teaching of Sola Scriptura (By Scripture Alone). Scripture, the Bible, is our sole source of teaching from God. The Bible is the only infallible and inerrant authority for Christian faith, and it contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. In other words, since God has given us His Written Word, the Bible, we need no other traditions nor rituals to lead us to eternal salvation in Him.

VP, I pray that I have sufficiently answered your question regarding the Protestant view of the Stations Of The Cross. And, I pray that you do recognize that I am not doing any Roman Catholic bashing when I explain our Protestant view of this issue.

As I have many times stated -- ANYONE -- EVERYONE (Roman Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.) who is born again (John 3:3) and by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) believes, and receives His "free gift" of salvation -- is a Christian believer and does indeed HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, eternal security in Jesus Christ. Salvation is not only for Protestants -- but, for ALL who will believe and receive (John 1:12) His FREE GIFT of salvation.

If you have done this, we are Christian brothers. If not, I sincerely pray that you will consider doing it today, right now -- while there is still time.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Spin.
Kettle.
Black.

But Bill, you forgot the blood orgy that we do after the 14th. Francis initiated that one, it is in the secret double super-secret info you get when the bishop confirms you. You also have sex with him before and after.

Come on dude, that "Roman Catholic" as idol worshiper schtick is getting very tired very rapidly. We type in the Roman alphabet which was used in the manuscripts and printing of Roman Catholic books, therefore we are all committing a grave sin and should switch over to Aramaic or Hebrew, is that where this is going next?

Billy, there was only one church in Europe for over 1400 years. Francis predates the Reformation by a longshot. He is celebrated in nearly every Christian denomination, you Francis basher, you! Shame on you. He lived a holy and devout life dedicated to bringing the good news and aid to the poor and sick and lonely. He suffered from the blessed stigmata and even when in terrible pain was embarrassed by it lest anyone think he was holy around him.

Tell us why he is in hell old man. I dare you.

No, Mr. Gray, sorry, I don't accept that answer as coming from all "Protestants".
But I really applaud the effort.
As for being saved right here and right now?
Hmm....guess I have to ask for the Lord's mercy on that and hope for the best. And I guess I would do it over and over, every day of my life. Not just once....
I would NEVER presume to be "saved" or worthy to be in the company of the Father.
PS- Stations is almost ver batim in each of the Gospels.

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
No, Mr. Gray, sorry, I don't accept that answer as coming from all "Protestants".
But I really applaud the effort.
As for being saved right here and right now?
Hmm....guess I have to ask for the Lord's mercy on that and hope for the best. And I guess I would do it over and over, every day of my life. Not just once....
I would NEVER presume to be "saved" or worthy to be in the company of the Father.
PS- Stations is almost ver batim in each of the Gospels.

Hi VP,

I am truly sorry that you cannot believe what Jesus Christ promises to all believers: eternal life.

It is too bad that you think He is lying when He promises us eternal life and eternal security.

But, regarding the Stations of the Cross in every Gospel; you keep saying this -- but, you have yet to actually show us.

As the old saying goes, "Put your Scripture where your mouth is!"

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
As for being saved right here and right now?
Hmm....guess I have to ask for the Lord's mercy on that and hope for the best. And I guess I would do it over and over, every day of my life. Not just once....
I would NEVER presume to be "saved" or worthy to be in the company of the Father.

VP the Bible promises us that once we ask forgiveness for our sins and receive Him as our Lord and Savior then we are saved and given eternal life. It isn't something you have to ask for over and over. And you don't have to just hope you will get there. He promises you will. I am trying to say this carefully because I really, really care how someone would read this or how they might take my words. I am saying this with all humility. I believe and I care deeply how my posts are worded. With that said I will have to say that it grieves me that someone might not believe that they have the assurance of salvation. I would not want someone to wonder if they are going to end up in heaven or hell. That is a frightening feeling about God. And even though God is powerful and mighty He truly loves us and wants us to worry about nothing. If you wonder about any of this it is all there in the Bible and I fully believe every word of it is true. I could give you several verses about salvation but to save time I will give you a link instead.

http://www.cwof.com/saved.html

As for entering into His holy presence I can assure you that God welcomes us into His presence. I speak to Him several times a day and I do not doubt for a minute that He is not listening. Am I worthy to be there? No I am not. I sin on a daily basis and I do it more than once a day. But the death of Christ on the cross and His resurrection gives me the blessing to be there. The blood that was shed was to cover my sins so I can have that personal relationship with Him. It has given me the priviledge that I don't deserve but am honored with because His blood has atoned for my sins. It covers my bad and when He looks at me all He can see is Jesus' good. Now that might seem presumptions to you but it is an honor that I am deeply grateful to have. Here is what the Billly Graham Evangelical Association says and it is referenced with scripture.

http://www.billygraham.org/SH_...becomeaChristian.asp
"Christ Is at Your Heart's Door
"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." —Revelation 3:20 (NIV)

Jesus Christ wants to have a personal relationship with you. Picture, if you will, Jesus Christ standing at the door of your heart (the door of your emotions, intellect and will). Invite Him in; He is waiting for you to receive Him into your heart and life.

Next I would like for you to listen to this old hymn sung by my favorite Christian Rock Band Third Day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kPIgJVBWlw

My next link is the lyrics of the song.

http://www.music-lyrics-gospel..._the_blood_19276.asp

Now here is an excerpt from Charles Stanley's comentary on salvation and eternal life.

http://www.gotquestions.org/on...ed-always-saved.html
"John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error. (f) For the most conclusive argument, I think Scripture says it best itself, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39). Remember the same God who saved you is the same God who will keep you. Once we are saved we are always saved. Our salvation is most definitely eternally secure!"

That statement and scripture is better than anything I could ever write about eternal life.

VP I am not trying to change your mind or "save" you. I am only offering you what I believe to be true. I cannot save anyone and give them eternal life. But I do believe that Jesus' death on the cross gives eternal life to those who choose to accept it. And you do not have to wonder from day to day if you are going to heaven. You just make a heartfelt repentant decision and then live like Jesus and share His promises with others.

God bless you all and I hope I gave justice to His promises. But I am truly only a human. As I said in another post don't take my word for it. Please read His Word and discover it for yourself

Hi Queen,

Your post is right on. The only verse I might add, and it may have been there and I missed it, is John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life."

However, when VP told me in his post, "I would NEVER presume to be "saved" or worthy to be in the company of the Father" -- he was reflecting the teaching of the Roman Catholic church -- that for anyone to say that he KNOWS he is saved and is going to heaven is a sin. The church calls this doctrine the Sin of Presumption.

Several years ago, a Roman Catholic Cardinal was quoted as saying that not even the Pope knows if he is going to heaven. Now, how can a world church leader teach folks about God's love and salvation -- if he, himself, is not sure if he is saved?

But, as you said, we must be careful not to denigrate the beliefs of others. Yet, like you, it does break my heart to see so many sincere people who worship God -- and, yet, do not know if God has truly accepted them into His family.

How can we KNOW we are in the Family of God?

John 1:12, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name."

Romans 8:16-17, "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs -- heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

1 John 3:1, "Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him."

1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

How can we KNOW that we are children of God and have eternal security in Him?

2 Corinthians 1:21-22, "Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge."

Ephesians 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

Ephesians 4:30, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by Whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

Over and over, in the Bible, we have so many promises of eternal security in Jesus Christ -- many in His own words. Yet, even though Jesus tells us -- and we can hand folks the Bible and let them read John 6:47 for themselves, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life" -- many still will not believe Him. When they read this, if you ask them, "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?" -- many will affirm that they have.

But, then, if you ask them, "Do you know you are saved and going to heaven?" -- many, many will still respond, "I am not sure."

The well known pastor and Bible teacher, Hal Ironside, in one of his commentaries tells of a lady who listened to his sermon on salvation; but, when she greeted him at the door when leaving the church, she told Ironside, "I wish I could be sure I have salvation."

Ironside gave his Bible to the lady and asked her to read 1 John 5:13, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you HAVE eternal life."

Then, Ironside asked her, "Do you have eternal life?" And she replied, "I hope so."

Ironside told her, "I see the problem. When you went to school, they taught you that H A V E -- spells 'maybe'."

Our hearts have to break for those folks who have invited Jesus Christ into their hearts and lives -- yet, still live under the dark cloud of insecurity, being unsure that He truly came in and is their Lord and Savior. Jesus tells us all, in Revelation 3:20, that if ANYONE hears His voice and opens the door of his heart -- Jesus WILL come in. We have to believe His promises; for our Lord is not a liar.

Yet, when someone, such as our Friend, VP, has his mind made up that he cannot KNOW that he HAS eternal life in Christ -- there is no way we can teach him to read H A V E as HAVE -- it is always "maybe" or "I'm not sure."

Queen, thank you for taking a stance on the Religion Forum for Christ. We need more Christians brothers and sisters like you who are not shy about declaring for the Lord.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

I am truly sorry that you cannot believe what Jesus Christ promises to all believers: eternal life.

It is too bad that you think He is lying when He promises us eternal life and eternal security.

VP didn't say anything like that you deranged old fool! (S)he claims that one needs to constantly work on salvation and for that he/she is villified and accused calling Jesus a liar!

How dare you! My God you bring out the worst in people with your hateful words!

You are truly the person my preacher speaks of when he discusses people that are "hard to love."

That's Ok. I went to Church this morning, and once again, we prayed as a group for forgiveness.We, as always, asked the Lord for pardon and strength.
I felt so relieved to be in the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. Yep, so the accusations and implications just rolled right off my back, as I thought of how VERY BLESSED I am to be able to sit quietly in the presence of our Lord this morning. And a bit sad that not everyone can know that kind of comfort and joy.
But, today is a new day, and I am renewed in spirit, full of hope and faith, and thank God for establishing this beautiful Church in which to Bless His Holy Name, Hear the Word, and participate in the Eucharist.
Have a great day, everyone!

"There in the ground His body lay
Light of the world by darkness slain:
Then bursting forth in glorious Day
Up from the grave he rose again!
And as He stands in victory
Sin's curse has lost its grip on me,
For I am His and He is mine -
Bought with the precious blood of Christ.

No guilt in life, no fear in death,
This is the power of Christ in me;
From life's first cry to final breath.
Jesus commands my destiny.
No power of hell, no scheme of man,
Can ever pluck me from His hand;
Till He returns or calls me home,
Here in the power of Christ I'll stand."

~Natalie Grant In Christ Alone

LOVE this song. It is everything Christ is and the reason why he came to earth! I LOVE that I will never be "plucked" from His hand!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEblODLcliA

I hope this speaks to you!

Bill sounds like a Jehovah's Witness to me. They don't celebrate Christmas because the Bible doesn't specifically say we should. I myself think that Jesus smiles on us whenever we honor Him in any way. Christmas, Stations of the Cross, you name it. I think He DOESN'T smile on us when we bait people, try to mislead people in His name, or stand on a pulpit and outright lie. I don't think He likes it one bit when we refuse to acknowledge our mistakes. We need to ask forgiveness from Him, AND from those whom we have harmed, whether it be deliberate harm or accidental. The way Bill is posting taunts, insults and misinformation is bad. But his not asking forgiveness for it is so much worse. The only message Bill has posted that is right and good is, we all need to open our hearts to Jesus. Once we belong to Him, we need to KEEP on His path. If we try every day to do God's will and not our OWN, we will be fine. Bill, you need to stop putting YOUR will ahead of God's. Keep on posting that when Jesus knocks, we should open the door and let him in. But you really should stop posting this weird stuff you find on questionable websites. And you need to stop bashing good Christians just because it makes you feel important. Yes, if you belong to Jesus you are saved. But "in His house are many mansions", and it is MY belief that some are a lot nicer than others. You may get to heaven, but if you keep trying to mislead people in His name, you may find yourself in a "shack" instead of a "mansion".

Why does BeeGee hate Francis? That's just mean! I be the will use the Catholic kalendar to determine when Easter is. Then celebrate it! Then he will run with the Roman 25 December v. 6 January Orthodox date for Christmas as well!

You know Our Special Friend Billy has got an Al Jolson fetish, "Hold on folks, you ain't seen nothing yet!"

Geez..........even the little bitty animals love St. Francis. You can't be normal.

quote:

You may get to heaven, but if you keep trying to mislead people in His name, you may find yourself in a "shack" instead of a "mansion".

AMEN!

quote:

Originally posted by Sofa King:

quote:

Originally posted by O No:
You may get to heaven, but if you keep trying to mislead people in His name, you may find yourself in a "shack" instead of a "mansion".

AMEN!

My Friends, Sofa and O,

To be in heaven with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, is all the rewards I deserve. But, I will be blissfully happy even in a shack -- if that shack is in heaven.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

See....this is where our road splits. You believe you are ENTITLED and DESERVE to be in Heaven??
I cannot get my mind to comprehend how any man can believe he deserves to be in Heaven. (and believe me, I don't want to! I am thankful that I am able to exercise humility, and let go of my pride)

When I call to mind Jesus' physical suffering, his EXTREME emotional, psychological and physical torture, I am reminded that at the mere mention of the name JESUS that every knee shall bend. We are not equal. He is God, and I am not.
I do not know how a sinful man can believe that he is worthy to be in the presence of the Christ.
I am not trying to be rude, I simply cannot fathom this- where is the humility?? Jesus was humble to the bitter end. When asked if He was the King of the Jews, he says "YOU say I am.."
He forgives the man beside him, amidst his agony. He commends His spirit into His Father's hand. He doesn't save himself. He doesn't make it easy.
In my opinion, we need to constantly remind ourselves of His incredibly suffering. A constant and ever-living sacrifice.
I am just struck by the lack of humility, and smugness of this statement.

Hi VP,

In an earlier post, O No told me, "You may get to heaven, but if you keep trying to mislead people in His name, you may find yourself in a 'shack' instead of a 'mansion.'" And, Sofa chimed in with, "AMEN!"

I responded with, "My Friends, Sofa and O, To be in heaven with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, is all the rewards I deserve. But, I will be blissfully happy even in a shack -- if that shack is in heaven."

And, you, VP, come back with, "See....this is where our road splits. You believe you are ENTITLED and DESERVE to be in Heaven?? I cannot get my mind to comprehend how any man can believe he deserves to be in Heaven. (and believe me, I don't want to! I am thankful that I am able to exercise humility, and let go of my pride)."

Okay, VP, I can see where your distress is aroused, when I wrote, "To be in heaven with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, is all the rewards I deserve."

You are right. I used an unfortunate choice of words. You are right that I do NOT deserve to be in heaven with my Lord, Jesus Christ. I should have said, "To be in heaven with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, is all the rewards that I believe I will receive. But, then, beyond all doubt -- I can still finish by saying, "But, I will be blissfully happy even in a shack -- if that shack is in heaven."

Quite honestly, if my salvation were based upon what I deserve -- I would spend eternity in hell. However, I have the "grace" and "mercy" of God -- which, because I am a believer -- assures me that I WILL be in heaven.

What is the "grace" of God?

Reading from my "Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary" I am told that grace means: "Favor or kindness shown without regard to the worth or merit of the one who receives it and in spite of what that person deserves. Grace is one of the key attributes of God."

Another dictionary defines grace: "The free unmerited love and favor of God, the spring and source of all the benefits men receive from Him."

Walter Elwell's "Concise Evangelical Dictionary of Theology" tells us of grace: "Its meaning is that of an undeserved blessing freely bestowed upon man by God -- a concept which is at the heart not only of Christian theology, but also of all genuinely Christian experience."

What is the "mercy" of God?

My "Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary" tells me: "Mercy is the aspect of God's love that causes Him to help the miserable, just as grace is the aspect of His love that moves Him to forgive the guilty."

My dear Friend, and the man who led me to the Lord in 1987, Pastor Sam Lacanienta, once illustrated "grace and mercy" in our Bible study. He had one of the young boys come up and lay his head on a table. Then, Pastor Sam pretended to be holding a large sword in his hands -- ready to bring it down upon the waiting neck of that boy. But, as Pastor Sam began to bring the sword down -- a power stopped him.

What was that power? It was the "mercy" of God -- through "grace," saving a sinner who did not deserve to be saved. This was a living example of the "mercy and grace" of God -- that He loves us so much that He is willing to forego the punishment we deserve and forgive us -- when we seek, believe and receive, His "free gift" of salvation.

In His grace and mercy, He sent His Son to "pay in full" the death penalty we all deserve. When Jesus Christ hung upon that cross, our "bill of sin" was nailed there with Him. At the moment He said, "It is finished!" -- Satan was defeated. When He rose from the grave -- death was defeated.

His resurrection assures the resurrection into immortal life for all mankind; every person who has, or who will, ever live. However, until each of us receives that "free gift" of salvation He purchased with His blood for us -- we are still on the path toward eternal life in hell. Each one of us, individually, regardless of our parents beliefs or lack of beliefs, regardless of which church we attend -- each one of us MUST individually believe and receive His "free gift" personally.

When we do this, we are given the Holy Spirit Who will live within us, sealing us for Christ -- forever. My Friend, that is eternal security. It is not something which you or I deserve -- yet, by the grace (the undeserved mercy) of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- if we believe and receive His "free gift" -- we WILL live eternally in heaven with Him -- eternal security in Jesus Christ.

VP, O No, and Sofa, I pray that this time I have better explained what it means to KNOW that I have eternal life in Jesus Christ -- and, that I can assure you, based upon God's Written Word, the Bible -- that, if you will also, by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, believe and receive His "free gift" -- you, too, can KNOW that you have eternal life in Jesus Christ. I sincerely pray that each of you have done this -- or will do this -- today; while there is still time.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Well....Mr. Gray,we're making progress.
I do sincerely appreciate, and am quite relieved to see that you acknowledge and corrected your error.
Indeed it was a poor choice of words. I sincerely hope that it does not reflect the underlying sentiment.
I think that where we indeed split is in your conviction of a "free gift". I do not believe for one minute that this gift is free. I believe that Jesus suffered way beyond our comprehension. Physically and emotionally. And I believe he continues to suffer!! Every time we sin (and we ALL do) we hurt Jesus. Physically and emotionally. All over again. Sin separates us from the love of God.
When He says "It is finished"..I believe this means his work on earth. I do not for one second to believe that the battle with Satan is over. I beleive, if anything, that it is more fierce than ever.
Jesus suffered so greatly, that I cannot even begin to put into words. He spent His life on earth SHOWING us how to be. We are supposed to strive to be like Him. Not just to "accept" him, and move on. It is not free. The cost of sin is the blood of the Lamb of God. Yours, mine, and every man on earth and under the earth. He sacrified Himself so that we may believe. So that we may continue His teachings- in Word, AND practice.
The analogy that I will present is like a marriage. Is it enough to say "I do"??
Does that complete your obligation? NO! It is an every minute of every day in and day out commitment. It is asking for forgiveness when we mess up, and being that forgiveness for the other. It is in being kind and charitable, humble and accepting. "I do" is just the opening of the chapter.
Jesus shows us how to handle ourselves in our relationships- forgiveness, patience, tolerance, and humility. I think that accepting the "not so free gift " is the "I do"...then the hard part is up to us.

quote:

Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Why does BeeGee hate Francis? That's just mean! I be the will use the Catholic kalendar to determine when Easter is. Then celebrate it! Then he will run with the Roman 25 December v. 6 January Orthodox date for Christmas as well!

You know Our Special Friend Billy has got an Al Jolson fetish, "Hold on folks, you ain't seen nothing yet!"

Haters of St. Francis?

Vplee 123 I take offence to you post .

yes, indeed.
I don't think one can fully enter into the celebration of the Risen Christ until you suffer with Him.
The empty tabernacle, the profound sadness, the darkness: all of these things make that first Easter "Alleluia" SO much more meaningful.

You have to gall to think you suffered with Christ our Lord.
Did you sweat Blood
were you beaten and spit upon
Were you Nailed to a Cross
Did GOD forsake you.

I think Not. Christ our Lord suffer the ultimate sacrifice .For everyone and for you to think you suffered with him is nothing short of blasphemy in the sight of GOD . I hope when you attend the church of your choice on the lords day you will reflect on how much Christ our Lord truly suffered and will beg forgiveness.

quote:

Originally posted by Sofa King:

quote:

I am truly sorry that you cannot believe what Jesus Christ promises to all believers: eternal life.

It is too bad that you think He is lying when He promises us eternal life and eternal security.

VP didn't say anything like that you deranged old fool! (S)he claims that one needs to constantly work on salvation and for that he/she is villified and accused calling Jesus a liar!

How dare you! My God you bring out the worst in people with your hateful words!

You are truly the person my preacher speaks of when he discusses people that are "hard to love."

Salvation is not by works, "lest any man can boast." How can Bill posting an honest response to a question be construed as lying or hateful? vplee has asked repeatedly how we, Protestants, believe regarding specific Catholic sacraments. Some of us have posted replies, quoting WHOLE verses, only to be put down again and again. Vp refuses to accept Scripture and Scripture alone, choosing, instead, to go along with the Catholic Church simply because he/she believes that the Catholic Church has the final authority because they have been teaching their own style of Christianity longer than any other denomination. Doing something longer than someone else does not mean you're right. You can't be wrong long enough to be right. Jesus gave us all eternal life. Eternity doesn't stop. It keeps going on forever. How can eternal life stop? Once you're His, you're His. You don't have to constantly suffer, or crawl on your knees down a glass-impregnated sidewalk to your place of worship to work out your salvation. Jesus paid it all. He suffered so we wouldn't have to. The Price was high, but the Gift is free.

quote:

When He says "It is finished"..I believe this means his work on earth.

Vp,
When Jesus said this, the word He used for finished literally meant "it is PAID." The debt was settled. The Price was high, but the Gift IS FREE. God loved the world SOOO much that He GAVE His ONLY SON!!! He didn't say, "Here's my Son. Now, work your butts off for your whole life and, maybe, just maybe, I MIGHT let you come live with Me." You're hung up on thinking that we believe you can accept Jesus, but keep living for the devil and be O.K. Well, we don't believe that. We take the Bible for what It says. You get saved and continue to strive to develop your relationship with Christ for as long as He allows you to live, but you'll never be perfect until He calls you home. You don't have to work for your salvation. No one can work himself into Heaven. So, get saved first. Then, do good works for a greater reward and to bring more followers into the Church.

quote:

Vplee 123 I take offence to you post .

yes, indeed.
I don't think one can fully enter into the celebration of the Risen Christ until you suffer with Him.
The empty tabernacle, the profound sadness, the darkness: all of these things make that first Easter "Alleluia" SO much more meaningful.

You have to gall to think you suffered with Christ our Lord.
Did you sweat Blood
were you beaten and spit upon
Were you Nailed to a Cross
Did GOD forsake you.

I think Not. Christ our Lord suffer the ultimate sacrifice .For everyone and for you to think you suffered with him is nothing short of blasphemy in the sight of GOD . I hope when you attend the church of your choice on the lords day you will reflect on how much Christ our Lord truly suffered and will beg forgiveness

Rattatue, I'm sorry you are/were offended by my statement. Perhaps I may clarify.
Do I think we suffered as Jesus did? Of course not. Do I think I physically suffer? Of course not.
However, I do believe that on a spiritual level, we enter into and share that suffering. We do that when we call to mind His agony, suffering and death.
If we say "In baptism, we die with Christ so that we may rise with Him".
Do I mean we stop breathing, and are physically dead? No.
Physical is physical, and spiritual is spiritual. One can most certainly enter spiritually into Christ's suffering. Meditation and prayer accomplishes that. And when we truly enter into the suffering, we can be so much more touched by the joy of the Risen Christ.
That's all I meant- certainly in no means blasphemous.....and certainly in no means did I state that we physically endure what Jesus did.
Now, we can have varying opinions on how to worship, but the focus is the same- on Jesus. And yes, I, along with all other Christians will assuredly ask for God's mercy and forgiveness. Every day of my life!

I happen to think there is more to it than a free gift of salvation- and that's my right. As it it Tomme's to believe otherwise. Neither of us can unequivocably say the other is wrong.

Trying to unite one's own sufferings to those of Christ is a common spiritual exercise. I try to imagine in Gethsemane when Our Lord sweated blood and asked if the cup could be passed. I imagine that is when He began to think about all the past, present and future sins that the world would do and how they broke His heart, especially when sin was done in His Blessed Name.

quote:

Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Trying to unite one's own sufferings to those of Christ is a common spiritual exercise. I try to imagine in Gethsemane when Our Lord sweated blood and asked if the cup could be passed. I imagine that is when He began to think about all the past, present and future sins that the world would do and how they broke His heart, especially when sin was done in His Blessed Name.