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In an August 23 post under the topic, "A Forum Friend Accuses Pastor Chuck Smith of Heresy," Bill Gray writes the following:

[QUOTE] Yes, Pastor Chuck has been on TBN -- as has Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, Pat Boone, and many other strongly evangelical believers. Using their physical facilities to share a message is not blessing their aberrant theology. My good Friend, Leon Patillo, even had a show on TBN at one time called "Leon and Friends." He was able share the Gospel with millions through their facilities.

If we are going to use your logic -- because you and I are on the same Religion Forum as Deep -- that means we, too, are atheists.[QUOTE]

What utter illogical BILGE that is, Bill. You should hang your head in shame for posting such an insult to reason and logic!

I and you and others on here feel free to dispute and rebut Deep Fat and other atheists who share this forum, and we do so often and with vigor. Debating with atheists no more makes one an atheist than Paul's debating with the Athenians (See Acts Chapter 17) made him a polytheist! When I disagree with and debate with atheists on this or any other forum I am establishing without question that I fundamentally disavow their false doctrine.

By contrast, those slaves of expediency such as Pastor Chuck and Pat Boone and others who go on TBN never say or do anything to dispute the zany, unscriptural prosperity gospel heresy that is at the heart of TBN's perverted theology! I strongly suspect that if any of these guests on TBN were to utter a challenge to the false teachings of the money-grubbing false prophets that run that corrupt network, you would never see it telecast.

If you can't see the difference, you are blind indeed, Bill!
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quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
those slaves of expediency such as Pastor Chuck and Pat Boone and others who go on TBN

Ever notice their $1500.00 suits/dresses & $5000.00 pieces of jewelery?

Hi Chick,

Pat Boone, starting long ago, earned any expensive suit and jewelry he may choose to wear -- making music and movies for our entertainment pleasure. If you are going to begrudge him that -- I guess we have to tell all the thousands of other musicians and entertainers to turn in their fancy clothes, fancy cars, fancy jewelry, and all that filthy money we paid them for entertaining us.

But, I will have to say that, in the 23 years I have known and learned from Pastor Chuck Smith -- it he wore anything other than JCPenney suits -- I haven't seen them.

Chick, calling someone based upon fact -- credible. Calling someone based upon what others do -- or what YOU THINK they have done; well, that is not too cool.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
The utter illogic of Bill Gray. I second that.

Hi B,

Now, let's be honest. You would second ANYTHING that is ant-Bill Gray.

If Satan himself appeared and declared, "I don't like Bill Gray!" -- you would immediately jump up and shout, "I second that!" Duh!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by b50m:
The utter illogic of Bill Gray. I second that.

Hi B,

Now, let's be honest. You would second ANYTHING that is ant-Bill Gray.

If Satan himself appeared and declared, "I don't like Bill Gray!" -- you would immediately jump up and shout, "I second that!" Duh!


bg-

Do you think you might bring that on yourself?
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
The utter illogic of Bill Gray. I second that.

Hi B,

Now, let's be honest. You would second ANYTHING that is ant-Bill Gray.

If Satan himself appeared and declared, "I don't like Bill Gray!" -- you would immediately jump up and shout, "I second that!" Duh!

bg- Do you think you might bring that on yourself?

Hi Child,

Only among Roman Catholics and their pet New Age/Wiccan attack canine.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by b50m:
The utter illogic of Bill Gray. I second that.

Hi B,

Now, let's be honest. You would second ANYTHING that is ant-Bill Gray.

If Satan himself appeared and declared, "I don't like Bill Gray!" -- you would immediately jump up and shout, "I second that!" Duh!

bg- Do you think you might bring that on yourself?

Hi Child,

Only among Roman Catholics and their pet New Age/Wiccan attack canine.


What did you say?
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by b50m:
The utter illogic of Bill Gray. I second that.

Hi B,

Now, let's be honest. You would second ANYTHING that is ant-Bill Gray.

If Satan himself appeared and declared, "I don't like Bill Gray!" -- you would immediately jump up and shout, "I second that!" Duh!

bg- Do you think you might bring that on yourself?

Hi Child,

Only among Roman Catholics and their pet New Age/Wiccan attack canine.


What did you say?


I think he just called himself a dog. He's not that cute. edit: Oh now I get it. He lost his comma, so much for being a brilliant writing talent.

His half Calvin/half Arminian lunacy has devolved into total incoherence. Must be the LSD flashbacks, or maybe it is just his nap time.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Bet,

What is an atheistic doctrine?

Hi Deep,

And, I, too, have to wonder what has happened to our Hall Monitor Grammarian -- when he writes on his post:

"I and you and others on here feel free. . ."

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill


Hey, Bill---there is nothing wrong with the construction, "I and you." It is more common to use "You and I," but the order of the pronouns is acceptablle either way. That usage that is most common is not necessarily the only correct usage. If you can find a creditable source for your critique, I will yield on the point, but I truly doubt that you can.

Meanwhile, why don't you respond to my assertion about your obvious failure to be logical?

Now HERE are some common rules of grammar that are routinely violated on these forums. They are listed under the heading "10 Flagrant Grammar Mistakes That Make You Look Stupid."

http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/it...ook-stupid-39273376/
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
I don't teach that there is no god. I can't prove that premise.

I'm convinced of it, but I don't "believe" it.

Simply put, the null condition is that there is no god. It's up to you to prove him.

You have not.

We atheists remain unconvinced in your god. We have no agenda, no premises, no dogma, no doctrine.

Get it?


No. I don;t get it. You lost me when you said you were "convinced of it" but "don't believe it." That seems to be something like cognitive dissonance.

As to agendas, you are free to speak for yourself, but don't expect me to believe that in yo' face atheists of the stripe of Hitchens or Dawkins have no agenda.
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Bet,

What is an atheistic doctrine?

Hi Deep,

And, I, too, have to wonder what has happened to our Hall Monitor Grammarian -- when he writes on his post:

"I and you and others on here feel free. . ."

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

Hey, Bill---there is nothing wrong with the construction, "I and you." It is more common to use "You and I," but the order of the pronouns is acceptablle either way. That usage that is most common is not necessarily the only correct usage. If you can find a creditable source for your critique, I will yield on the point, but I truly doubt that you can.

Hi Beter,

Show me ONE English Grammar book which approves the usage of "I and you." That is so wrong it smells up the whole house.

I wrote a paper on that a few years ago. Maybe I will post it for your edification.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Bet,

What is an atheistic doctrine?

Hi Deep,

And, I, too, have to wonder what has happened to our Hall Monitor Grammarian -- when he writes on his post:

"I and you and others on here feel free. . ."

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

Hey, Bill---there is nothing wrong with the construction, "I and you." It is more common to use "You and I," but the order of the pronouns is acceptablle either way. That usage that is most common is not necessarily the only correct usage. If you can find a creditable source for your critique, I will yield on the point, but I truly doubt that you can.

Hi Beter,

Show me ONE English Grammar book which approves the usage of "I and you." That is so wrong it smells up the whole house.

I wrote a paper on that a few years ago. Maybe I will post it for your edification.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


No, Bill. YOU are the one who claimed my usage was wrong. It is not up to me to defend it; it is up to you to prove your assertion. That is the way it works, Bill. Now how about serving up that learned paper you claim to have written on the subject? I will be happy to acknowledge error if you will show me where the error lies and show me from a qualified source. Unlike certain others on this forum, I am willing to acknowledge that I am wrong when I am shown to be wrong. Really, I am.
quote:
Originally posted by themax:
You know BeternU, it seems that that's what Billy does on several posts. He will twist and turn and then ask YOU to prove or disprove a point. Even more I can't recall just what the topic was about, but when asked his belief he came back with something like, "you show me yours and I'll show you mine"

Hi Max,

Well, I have been declaring myself for over three years on the Religion Forums. Where have you been hiding?

I am a Conservative Christian who believes, no, make that KNOWS, the Bible is the inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word of God.

Other names you might call me include Fundamentalist and Baptist. But, the most descriptive name you can call me is Christian believer -- a man who, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- PLUS NOTHING ELSE -- believed and received His "free gift" of salvation, i.e., eternal security -- directly from the nail scarred hands of Jesus Christ.

That is me! Now, how about you? What can we call you? Are you a Christian believer? You implied in another post that you believe in the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. Does this mean that you are a follower of Liberal Theology or a member of one of the Liberal Theology churches? I am truly interested in your spiritual convictions; especially since you post so often denigrating my beliefs.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by themax:
quote:
Hi Max, Well, I have been declaring myself for over three years on the Religion Forums. Where have you been hiding?

Bill I took a break from this forum for a few years. But i was here before there was a religion section.

Hi Max,

That is good -- but, you skipped over the most important part of my post:

"That is me! Now, how about you? What can we call you? Are you a Christian believer? You implied in another post that you believe in the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. Does this mean that you are a follower of Liberal Theology or a member of one of the Liberal Theology churches? I am truly interested in your spiritual convictions; especially since you post so often denigrating my beliefs."

Would you care to answer this for us?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
That's a joke and you know it. You have time and again interpreted it just to suit you and your leader Chuck's ideas.


EXAMPLE, PLEASE!


Posts: 8033 | Location: Southern California (Born Tuscumbia/Grew up in Sheffield) | Registered: 28 January 2007



Bill, how many times have you explained a passage the way to suit your belief.
to many to count.
However, one that comes to mind is you the word water, when Christ was speaking to Nicodemus telling him he must be born of the water and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
You told us the water was the word of
God.
If I looked there are many more.
quote:
Originally posted by themax:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by themax:
That's a joke and you know it. You have time and again interpreted it just to suit you and your leader Chuck's ideas.

EXAMPLE, PLEASE!

Bill, how many times have you explained a passage the way to suit your belief. to (sic) many to count. However, one that comes to mind is you the word water, when Christ was speaking to Nicodemus telling him he must be born of the water and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. You told us the water was the word of God. If I looked there are many more.

Hi Max,

Okay, you do not believe that Jesus was referring to the Word of God when He told Nicodemus "You must be born again of the water and Spirit."

I have given my understanding of that Scripture passage -- and why I believe it to be true, from Scripture.

You tell us your understanding of that passage -- and, from Scripture, why you believe as you do.

Then we will have something to discuss. But, if you are going to just stand on the school yard screaming, "You are wrong! You are wrong!" -- there is nothing to discuss.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by themax:
Bill when Jesus said water I believed him. It just that simple

Hi Max,

I am happy to hear that you agree with me that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word of God. However, as I have said before -- when interpreting the Bible -- we first read it using the literal meaning. If that does not make sense, then we look for a symbolic or metaphorical meaning.

You read John 3:5, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" -- and say that this means literal "water" because this is what Jesus said. I still believe, because of His conversation with the woman of Samaria, that He means the Word of God, i.e., the Living Water.

Okay, for now, I will buy your explanation. So, what is your take on what Jesus said in Matthew 18:8-9? "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell."

How many hands and eyes do you have left?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill, your half and half slip is showing. How can you say the Bible is literal, and then post this from Matthew which you are going to say is allegorical?

You have once again fallen into the fundy self-delusional belief that "it is, until it isn't". Worse yet, you believe it is until YOU say it isn't.

Have a blissed day.
quote:
Okay, for now, I will buy your explanation. So, what is your take on what Jesus said in Matthew 18:8-9? "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell."


Well Bill, since you asked I'll give you my thoughts.
If there is a sin that concerns using your hand and you can not control yourself, then as a last resort cut it off.
With the eye the same applies If there is a sin, such as lust, that for whatever reason you just can not control, pluck it out.
I think the Lord here is telling us just how important it is to avoid hell, and be able to enjoy heaven.
I understand theses are just examples of extreme conditions. I would hope that a normal person could control his own body without having to use such an option.
JMO
quote:
Originally posted by themax:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
You read John 3:5, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" -- and say that this means literal "water" because this is what Jesus said. I still believe, because of His conversation with the woman of Samaria, that He means the Word of God, i.e., the Living Water.

Okay, for now, I will buy that. So, what is your take on what Jesus said in Matthew 18:8-9? "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell."

How many hands and eyes do you have left?

Well Bill, since you asked I'll give you my thoughts. If there is a sin that concerns using your hand and you can not control yourself, then as a last resort cut it off. With the eye the same applies If there is a sin, such as lust, that for whatever reason you just can not control, pluck it out.

I think the Lord here is telling us just how important it is to avoid hell, and be able to enjoy heaven. I understand theses are just examples of extreme conditions. I would hope that a normal person could control his own body without having to use such an option. JMO

So, Max,

How many hands and eyes do you have left? Or, are you sinless? Max, you must belong to a very legalistic church -- or do you belong to any church? Are these opinions from you -- or from a perfect, sinless preacher?

Personally, I am far from being sinless. But, I AM a "forgiven sinner" who knows, beyond all doubt, that I have His promise of eternal life in the presence of God, i.e., eternal security in Christ Jesus. And, unless I am involved in an accident -- I will still have both hands and both eyes when I leave this world and take that ride on the Glory Train.

But, Max, I am not trying to tell you that you must believe that Jesus meant the Word of God when He told us we have to be born again of the water and the Spirit to see the kingdom of God. If you are more comfortable believing He meant ordinary water -- that is not a problem. Our salvation does not depend upon how we interpret this Scripture passage. It is interesting to discuss; but, not an issue which will cause anyone to not be saved.

However, I am curious. Are you arguing so adamantly against everything I write because you sincerely, from the Bible, disagree -- or just because you want to disagree with Bill Gray? Either way, no problem. But, I do wonder about your motivation.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
However, I am curious. Are you arguing so adamantly against everything I write because you sincerely, from the Bible, disagree -- or just because you want to disagree with Bill Gray? Either way, no problem. But, I do wonder about your motivation.


Bill, you asked what I thought and I told you.
And yes, I have been able to control my body thus far. Do I sin? yes of course,and when I do I ask forgiveness from our Father thru His Son Jesus the Christ who makes intercession for us.
quote:
Originally posted by themax:
quote:
However, I am curious. Are you arguing so adamantly against everything I write because you sincerely, from the Bible, disagree -- or just because you want to disagree with Bill Gray? Either way, no problem. But, I do wonder about your motivation.

Bill, you asked what I thought and I told you. And yes, I have been able to control my body thus far. Do I sin? yes of course,and when I do I ask forgiveness from our Father thru His Son Jesus the Christ who makes intercession for us.

Hi Max,

But, do you cut off your hand or pluck out your eye? Surely some of your sins have involved your hands, eyes, maybe your tongue. Do you still have a tongue?

Max, I realize this is all silly talk. But, it flows with your statement to justify the "water" in Jesus' statement as only water.

I still believe He meant the Word of God. The Word of God can save us. Tap water will only make us wet. That is my point. We are saved by grace, through faith -- which comes from the Written Word of God; not my water faucet.

But, as I said -- regardless of what we believe on this issue -- it does not affect our salvation.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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