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There Are No True Christians


Let's be honest and face reality. There is no such thing as a "true" Christian.

It's common to observe Christians advertising the virtues of their faith and how they live their lives to honor and praise their God. Many Christians are fond of saying that "true" Christians are role models for the rest of the world which is hopelessly lost and wallowing in sin.
According to these shallow and superficial preachers, "true" Christians want to glorify God by their words and deeds.

Here are some actual and typical statements made by a zealous believer.

[Christian claims:
To be a Christian you must turn over your life to God and live according to his will.
In American society today, among criminals, you will not find any true, Biblical Christians.
]

Beneath the shiny veneer of all this pious sermonizing lies a hypocritical theology that does not live up to it's own advertising.
Since most Christians claim they believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God, testing the claims of zealous believers is relatively easy to do.
After all, when a zealous believer is preaching the word of God to you, it's always a good idea to make sure the preacher is the genuine article, a real Christian.
Nobody wants a cheap imitation of the real thing. We skeptics want real Christians.
We skeptics want to be sure that the real thing is telling us how the universe has been set up and what it's rules are.

How can skeptics recognize a "true Biblical Christian"?

To begin, Jesus stated that God's laws were to be followed until heaven and earth passed away.

Matt 5:18-19
For verily I say unto you,
Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one ****le shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


The "Law" is the statutes and regulations God gave his people in the Old Testament.
The Bible God declares all his laws are perfect(Psa 19:7), last forever(Psa 119:152), and are eternal(Psa 119:160).
Do Christians follow these laws? No, they do not. If Christians like a law they will quote it as God's word. However, if they don't care to observe a law, they will claim that they are not under the law because Jesus did away with the cumbersome and inconvenient laws of the Old Testament.
Where do they get this idea from? Jesus said in Matt 5:18-19 that all the laws were to be followed until heaven and earth passed away. Why do Christians ignore what Jesus said?
The answer to this question is that Christians follow the teaching of Paul, not Jesus.
It was Paul who canceled God's laws with his pen.
Paul declared that God's Law was canceled by a human sacrifice called Jesus.

Col 2:13-14
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he(God) quickened together with him(Jesus), having forgiven you all trespasses;
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances(God's Law)that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Paul's declaration is based on his need to win converts from non-Jewish populations.
Greeks for example, had little use for the Hebrew God's complicated laws. The Law was Paul's competition as it hindered his efforts to gain converts to his new religion. Of course, a rational person can see that Paul directly contradicted what Jesus stated in Matt 5:18-19 but that matters little to zealous Christians. One also has to wonder how laws which are declared perfect and eternal in the Old Testament become "opposed to the people" and "canceled" in the New Testament. Does this sound like an infallible God who inspired this type of confusion?
Paul also put an end to God's laws with this statement:

Rom 10:4
For Christ is the
end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The problem with this statement is that it once again contradicts both Jesus and the Old Testament.
Perfect and eternal laws don't end because a writer who is trying to sell a new religion to people says they have ended.
HOWEVER:
There is
nothing in the Old Testament which states that the coming of a Messiah would be the end of the Law.
On the contrary, when the messianic age comes, the Law will still be fully observed:

Ezek 37:24(God speaking)
And David my servant(the Christ/Messiah) shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and
observe my statutes, and do them.

Paul's new invented theology contradicts God's earlier holy word and Christians who follow Paul's teaching(apostasy) and ignore Jesus and God's instructions do not serve the Lord their God. They are raising Paul's word above the word of Jesus and God.
Just a few of the examples which show the hypocrisy of Christians:
If Christians really wanted to do God's will as they so often claim, they would worship on Saturday which is the Sabbath(Exo 31:15) they would observe all God's dietary laws(Lev 11), they would not celebrate Christmas, they would not wear mixed fabrics(Lev 19:19), they would not eat meat with any blood in it(Lev 17:10), and they would not follow a man as a God(Num 23:19).

So we see that Christians ignore many of God's Old Testament laws because a writer named Paul said observing the Law was no longer necessary. Such is the shallow nature of the faith Christians have in the Old Testament and the words of Jesus regarding the status of the Law.

But the problem gets even worse for these pious self proclaimed mouth pieces of God.
The New Testament also gives some instructions on how Christians should behave:
1 Tim 2:11-12
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


According to Paul, who Christians follow, women are to be silent regarding religious issues.
This means that ordaining women as pastors or teachers is not permitted. How many Christians observe this regulation?
How many women teach Bible classes against the instructions of the "holy inspired" Paul?

Jesus stated that those who wanted to follow him should sell their goods and give the money to the poor.
Luke 12:33
Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

Of course, Christians today will claim that Jesus only meant that to apply to his followers who lived at that time. The actual instruction from Jesus has no such qualifiers attached to it but since so few Christians want to obey this instruction, it's little wonder they'll try to wiggle out of it's implications.

Jesus stated, as most cult leaders do, that those who left their families to serve him would receive a great reward.
Matt 19:21,29
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.


How many Christians who claim that they want to "serve the Lord" have given their hearts to Jesus and left their families to devote their full energy to the Lord Jesus? Don't these pious mouthpieces for God really want to "turn their lives over to God" as they say they must to be a real Christian?
How many self righteous Christians live in nice homes, have wives and children, and possessions while all the time preaching that they live to serve Jesus? The depth of Christian hypocrisy speaks for itself as these people will ignore any teachings which are too inconvenient to follow.

Jesus stated that anyone who divorces and marries another women commits adultery.
Luke 16:18
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.


Also note the penalty for adultery according to God's word.
Deut 22:22
If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.


How many Christians have violated the clear instructions from Jesus regarding divorce? Yet, churches are virtually mute about this common practice.

The New Testament itself shows how a "true" Christian can be recognized.
1 John 2:3-6
And hereby we(Christians) do know that we know him(Jesus), if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


There is no absolutely no wiggle room in 1 John 2:3-6 for hypocritical, self proclaimed Christians who don't want to follow the clear instructions of Jesus regarding the selling of worldly possessions, divorce, keeping all the law, or putting one's family ahead of serving Jesus and following him. If a person claims to be "in Christ" but does not obey the word of Jesus, they are liars.

How many Christians have ignored these Biblical commands and the direct commands of their Savior Jesus? Remember that God's law is perfect(Psa 19:7) and eternal(Psa 119:152,160). If Christians really want to do God's will, as they constantly advertise, why do so many of them divorce and fail to punish wrongdoers as God instructed.
Are God's laws outdated now?
Does this God's moral standard change with the times? Why should skeptics be impressed with a God whose moral code changes and follows the evolving customs of human society? Why should skeptics be impressed with believers who ignore the very word of God they claim to believe?
Jesus made the following promise:

Mark 16:15-18
And he(Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Does this ring true about Christians? Do Christians really do all these things as Jesus promised they would?
Faced with the obvious dilemma that this failed promise entails, Christians will once again claim that this promise of Jesus only applied to first century believers.
Of course, there is no such qualifier in the actual text which says this promise would only apply to first century believers.
This particular Christian apologetic tap dance is done out of sheer desperation.

Jesus also promised:
John 14:12-14
Verily, verily, I(Jesus) say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If ye shall
ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Obviously, either this promise made by Jesus is false or there are no true Christians. And once again, modern Christians will claim that this promise by Jesus only applied to first century believers.
Isn't it amazing how much of the New Testament is outdated and only applied to the people of that time?

Paul gets into the act again when he strongly advises that Christians not marry but stay single and celibate for Jesus.
1 Cor 7:8-9
I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.
But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.


While Paul also states that it is not a sin to marry, he makes it quite clear that it is a lack of spiritual strength which underlies the need to marry.
1 Cor 7:29
But this I say, brethren,
the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;

Christians who have wives do not practice celibacy as Paul recommended.
Paul expected Jesus to return in his lifetime and so he also urges Christians to stay unmarried.
Jesus has never returned, so Paul's prophecy here was false. Time was not "short" at all.

Paul also made it clear that the unmarried are fully concerned about serving the Lord and not distracted and preoccupied by the "affairs of this world" and childish lusts.

1 Cor 7:32-35
But I would have you without carefulness.
He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.


As Paul points out, the unmarried live in a right way, which is in undivided devotion to the Lord.
It is these unmarried and celibate believers who demonstrate that they want to please the Lord and do his will fully.
How many "true" Christians have followed the recommendation of Paul in this matter?
How many Christians give in to their lusts, marry, and divert their devotion and attention away from fully serving God's will and affairs?
How many Christians have decided to ignore these strong recommendations of Paul despite having the extra moral strength that being "filled with Jesus" is supposed to give them?

And let's not forget about Christmas, the pagan celebration of the winter solstice which was adopted by Christians and used to celebrate the birthday of Jesus.
They are celebrating the birthday of their LORD and SAVIOR on a pagan holiday. Jesus never instructed that his birthday be celebrated, nor is there any birth date given in the New Testament.
Bringing customs of pagan gods into God's congregation is a violation of huge proportions.
The Bible God gives clear instructions not to adopt customs of other nations.

Lev 20:23,26
And
ye shall not walk in the manners of the nations, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.


Apparently Christians want an excuse to celebrate without authority do to so. They set up trees, decorate them with silver tinsel, gold balls and religious ornaments, gather around it, put up lights, put on pageants, and engage in exactly the things God told them not to do.

Jer 10:2-5
Thus saith the LORD,
Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.


These actions by Christians laugh in the face of the instructions God gave in the Old Testament.
God instructs his people not to learn or practice the ways of the nations around them. It's astounding how Christians will ignore what the Bible tells them when it conflicts with what they want to do.

These same religious chameleons then proclaim and advertise to the world that they want to "serve God."

Remember what the zealous, pious sounding Christian stated:
"To be a Christian you must turn over your life to God and live according to his will."

Perhaps these pious, hypocritical Christians think skeptics are too stupid to be able to see past all their candy coated rhetoric. Perhaps they think that the whole world lives in the same myopic eggshell universe that they reside in.
These Christians want all of the benefits and rewards of being God's "chosen" people and his "elect".
However, when it comes to actually obeying the instructions their God gives, they'll offer up nothing but hundreds of mealy mouthed excuses as to why they are excused from following the mandates of their Savior.
In reality, Christians engage in just as much self gratification and self exaltation as they say unbelievers practice. Christians(and other religionists) create two objects, themselves and the object of their worship.
But this is both vanity and idolatry.
When a Christian praises the object of his worship, his "God", he is really praising his ideas and views about the object of his worship.
The Christian exalts himself using a surrogate ego which he calls "God".
Whenever a pious Christian preaches to a skeptic about how Christians serve God, expose them for the charlatans they are. There is no such thing today as a "true" Christian.

 

 

http://agnosticreview.com/notruexians.htm

Original Post

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Originally Posted by Bestworking:

There Are No True Christians


Let's be honest and face reality. There is no such thing as a "true" Christian.

It's common to observe Christians advertising the virtues of their faith and how they live their lives to honor and praise their God. Many Christians are fond of saying that "true" Christians are role models for the rest of the world which is hopelessly lost and wallowing in sin.
According to these shallow and superficial preachers, "true" Christians want to glorify God by their words and deeds.

Here are some actual and typical statements made by a zealous believer.

[Christian claims:
To be a Christian you must turn over your life to God and live according to his will.
In American society today, among criminals, you will not find any true, Biblical Christians.
]

Beneath the shiny veneer of all this pious sermonizing lies a hypocritical theology that does not live up to it's own advertising.
Since most Christians claim they believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God, testing the claims of zealous believers is relatively easy to do.
After all, when a zealous believer is preaching the word of God to you, it's always a good idea to make sure the preacher is the genuine article, a real Christian.
Nobody wants a cheap imitation of the real thing. We skeptics want real Christians.
We skeptics want to be sure that the real thing is telling us how the universe has been set up and what it's rules are.

How can skeptics recognize a "true Biblical Christian"?

To begin, Jesus stated that God's laws were to be followed until heaven and earth passed away.

Matt 5:18-19
For verily I say unto you,
Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one ****le shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


The "Law" is the statutes and regulations God gave his people in the Old Testament.
The Bible God declares all his laws are perfect(Psa 19:7), last forever(Psa 119:152), and are eternal(Psa 119:160).
Do Christians follow these laws? No, they do not. If Christians like a law they will quote it as God's word. However, if they don't care to observe a law, they will claim that they are not under the law because Jesus did away with the cumbersome and inconvenient laws of the Old Testament.
Where do they get this idea from? Jesus said in Matt 5:18-19 that all the laws were to be followed until heaven and earth passed away. Why do Christians ignore what Jesus said?
The answer to this question is that Christians follow the teaching of Paul, not Jesus.
It was Paul who canceled God's laws with his pen.
Paul declared that God's Law was canceled by a human sacrifice called Jesus.

Col 2:13-14
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he(God) quickened together with him(Jesus), having forgiven you all trespasses;
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances(God's Law)that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Paul's declaration is based on his need to win converts from non-Jewish populations.
Greeks for example, had little use for the Hebrew God's complicated laws. The Law was Paul's competition as it hindered his efforts to gain converts to his new religion. Of course, a rational person can see that Paul directly contradicted what Jesus stated in Matt 5:18-19 but that matters little to zealous Christians. One also has to wonder how laws which are declared perfect and eternal in the Old Testament become "opposed to the people" and "canceled" in the New Testament. Does this sound like an infallible God who inspired this type of confusion?
Paul also put an end to God's laws with this statement:

Rom 10:4
For Christ is the
end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The problem with this statement is that it once again contradicts both Jesus and the Old Testament.
Perfect and eternal laws don't end because a writer who is trying to sell a new religion to people says they have ended.
HOWEVER:
There is
nothing in the Old Testament which states that the coming of a Messiah would be the end of the Law.
On the contrary, when the messianic age comes, the Law will still be fully observed:

Ezek 37:24(God speaking)
And David my servant(the Christ/Messiah) shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and
observe my statutes, and do them.

Paul's new invented theology contradicts God's earlier holy word and Christians who follow Paul's teaching(apostasy) and ignore Jesus and God's instructions do not serve the Lord their God. They are raising Paul's word above the word of Jesus and God.
Just a few of the examples which show the hypocrisy of Christians:
If Christians really wanted to do God's will as they so often claim, they would worship on Saturday which is the Sabbath(Exo 31:15) they would observe all God's dietary laws(Lev 11), they would not celebrate Christmas, they would not wear mixed fabrics(Lev 19:19), they would not eat meat with any blood in it(Lev 17:10), and they would not follow a man as a God(Num 23:19).

So we see that Christians ignore many of God's Old Testament laws because a writer named Paul said observing the Law was no longer necessary. Such is the shallow nature of the faith Christians have in the Old Testament and the words of Jesus regarding the status of the Law.

But the problem gets even worse for these pious self proclaimed mouth pieces of God.
The New Testament also gives some instructions on how Christians should behave:
1 Tim 2:11-12
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


According to Paul, who Christians follow, women are to be silent regarding religious issues.
This means that ordaining women as pastors or teachers is not permitted. How many Christians observe this regulation?
How many women teach Bible classes against the instructions of the "holy inspired" Paul?

Jesus stated that those who wanted to follow him should sell their goods and give the money to the poor.
Luke 12:33
Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

Of course, Christians today will claim that Jesus only meant that to apply to his followers who lived at that time. The actual instruction from Jesus has no such qualifiers attached to it but since so few Christians want to obey this instruction, it's little wonder they'll try to wiggle out of it's implications.

Jesus stated, as most cult leaders do, that those who left their families to serve him would receive a great reward.
Matt 19:21,29
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.


How many Christians who claim that they want to "serve the Lord" have given their hearts to Jesus and left their families to devote their full energy to the Lord Jesus? Don't these pious mouthpieces for God really want to "turn their lives over to God" as they say they must to be a real Christian?
How many self righteous Christians live in nice homes, have wives and children, and possessions while all the time preaching that they live to serve Jesus? The depth of Christian hypocrisy speaks for itself as these people will ignore any teachings which are too inconvenient to follow.

Jesus stated that anyone who divorces and marries another women commits adultery.
Luke 16:18
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.


Also note the penalty for adultery according to God's word.
Deut 22:22
If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.


How many Christians have violated the clear instructions from Jesus regarding divorce? Yet, churches are virtually mute about this common practice.

The New Testament itself shows how a "true" Christian can be recognized.
1 John 2:3-6
And hereby we(Christians) do know that we know him(Jesus), if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


There is no absolutely no wiggle room in 1 John 2:3-6 for hypocritical, self proclaimed Christians who don't want to follow the clear instructions of Jesus regarding the selling of worldly possessions, divorce, keeping all the law, or putting one's family ahead of serving Jesus and following him. If a person claims to be "in Christ" but does not obey the word of Jesus, they are liars.

How many Christians have ignored these Biblical commands and the direct commands of their Savior Jesus? Remember that God's law is perfect(Psa 19:7) and eternal(Psa 119:152,160). If Christians really want to do God's will, as they constantly advertise, why do so many of them divorce and fail to punish wrongdoers as God instructed.
Are God's laws outdated now?
Does this God's moral standard change with the times? Why should skeptics be impressed with a God whose moral code changes and follows the evolving customs of human society? Why should skeptics be impressed with believers who ignore the very word of God they claim to believe?
Jesus made the following promise:

Mark 16:15-18
And he(Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Does this ring true about Christians? Do Christians really do all these things as Jesus promised they would?
Faced with the obvious dilemma that this failed promise entails, Christians will once again claim that this promise of Jesus only applied to first century believers.
Of course, there is no such qualifier in the actual text which says this promise would only apply to first century believers.
This particular Christian apologetic tap dance is done out of sheer desperation.

Jesus also promised:
John 14:12-14
Verily, verily, I(Jesus) say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If ye shall
ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Obviously, either this promise made by Jesus is false or there are no true Christians. And once again, modern Christians will claim that this promise by Jesus only applied to first century believers.
Isn't it amazing how much of the New Testament is outdated and only applied to the people of that time?

Paul gets into the act again when he strongly advises that Christians not marry but stay single and celibate for Jesus.
1 Cor 7:8-9
I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.
But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.


While Paul also states that it is not a sin to marry, he makes it quite clear that it is a lack of spiritual strength which underlies the need to marry.
1 Cor 7:29
But this I say, brethren,
the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;

Christians who have wives do not practice celibacy as Paul recommended.
Paul expected Jesus to return in his lifetime and so he also urges Christians to stay unmarried.
Jesus has never returned, so Paul's prophecy here was false. Time was not "short" at all.

Paul also made it clear that the unmarried are fully concerned about serving the Lord and not distracted and preoccupied by the "affairs of this world" and childish lusts.

1 Cor 7:32-35
But I would have you without carefulness.
He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.


As Paul points out, the unmarried live in a right way, which is in undivided devotion to the Lord.
It is these unmarried and celibate believers who demonstrate that they want to please the Lord and do his will fully.
How many "true" Christians have followed the recommendation of Paul in this matter?
How many Christians give in to their lusts, marry, and divert their devotion and attention away from fully serving God's will and affairs?
How many Christians have decided to ignore these strong recommendations of Paul despite having the extra moral strength that being "filled with Jesus" is supposed to give them?

And let's not forget about Christmas, the pagan celebration of the winter solstice which was adopted by Christians and used to celebrate the birthday of Jesus.
They are celebrating the birthday of their LORD and SAVIOR on a pagan holiday. Jesus never instructed that his birthday be celebrated, nor is there any birth date given in the New Testament.
Bringing customs of pagan gods into God's congregation is a violation of huge proportions.
The Bible God gives clear instructions not to adopt customs of other nations.

Lev 20:23,26
And
ye shall not walk in the manners of the nations, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.


Apparently Christians want an excuse to celebrate without authority do to so. They set up trees, decorate them with silver tinsel, gold balls and religious ornaments, gather around it, put up lights, put on pageants, and engage in exactly the things God told them not to do.

Jer 10:2-5
Thus saith the LORD,
Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.


These actions by Christians laugh in the face of the instructions God gave in the Old Testament.
God instructs his people not to learn or practice the ways of the nations around them. It's astounding how Christians will ignore what the Bible tells them when it conflicts with what they want to do.

These same religious chameleons then proclaim and advertise to the world that they want to "serve God."

Remember what the zealous, pious sounding Christian stated:
"To be a Christian you must turn over your life to God and live according to his will."

Perhaps these pious, hypocritical Christians think skeptics are too stupid to be able to see past all their candy coated rhetoric. Perhaps they think that the whole world lives in the same myopic eggshell universe that they reside in.
These Christians want all of the benefits and rewards of being God's "chosen" people and his "elect".
However, when it comes to actually obeying the instructions their God gives, they'll offer up nothing but hundreds of mealy mouthed excuses as to why they are excused from following the mandates of their Savior.
In reality, Christians engage in just as much self gratification and self exaltation as they say unbelievers practice. Christians(and other religionists) create two objects, themselves and the object of their worship.
But this is both vanity and idolatry.
When a Christian praises the object of his worship, his "God", he is really praising his ideas and views about the object of his worship.
The Christian exalts himself using a surrogate ego which he calls "God".
Whenever a pious Christian preaches to a skeptic about how Christians serve God, expose them for the charlatans they are. There is no such thing today as a "true" Christian.

 

 

http://agnosticreview.com/notruexians.htm

----------------------------------------------

-----------Fine with me------------------

 

.

Vic,

It was long enough without you copying it again.

 

 

Best,

Lots of hate in that for Christians.  OK, so there are no Christians  who follows the Bible as it was written. There wouldn't be any one left if they did between the celibacy and the death penalty for fornication.

 

Since you atheists don't believe there are any gods or christians to start with, why worry about what they do?

 

Is it some kind of game to throw out verses and say "gotcha!...I am an intelligent atheist and I know more about your myth than you do. I am smarter than you and can prove that you don't follow your myth correctly."

 

Really, does that even make sense?

 

Man is imperfect. Some are more imperfect than others. Some are just plain rotten. Most just try to survive from day to day. Most are nice caring people. It's just the rotten ones who make the news.

 

Hate the myth?  Stop reading about it.

The way the christians stop reading and writing about the things they "hate"? You have to say hate, there is no way a christian can say disagreement or debate, it has to be hatred. That tells us more about christians than most anything else could. You can't oppose a black candidate or person unless you're a racist, you can't remark, disagree, debate, point out contradictions about religion unless you hate.

What a bunch of garbage. Of course this is just your opinion. You can no more JUDGE what a Christian has in his/her heart than a Christian can see what's in your heart. We can only speculate that you unbelievers are very hateful people by your actions. Take your post above. Full of hate for ALL believers. You should ask Jesus into your heart and he will fix your hate of us believers. He did it for Saul (Paul) he will do it for you too.

Well, it is hate. What else is it?  Atheists hate religion.  By association, I would guess most hate the people as well.

 

I don't care if you think that word is too strong. When someone tries to debate or discuss any religious topic, the same old answers appear from your side. Myth, delusion, ignorance, fear, weakminded, looney, hypocrite,.....

 

The highlights:

pious sermonizing lies a hypocritical theology that does not live up to it's own advertising.

But the problem gets even worse for these pious self proclaimed mouth pieces of God.

Jesus stated, as most cult leaders do,

Perhaps these pious, hypocritical Christians think skeptics are too stupid to be able to see past all their candy coated rhetoric. Perhaps they think that the whole world lives in the same myopic eggshell universe that they reside in.



No hate there.  So if you hate the word 'hate' then don't use hateful language. Sure there are hateful Christians. There are hateful non Christians. In fact, there is more than enough hate to go around the world even without religion.


The only problem I see, is that atheists don't see that.

Atheists hate religion? There's that word again, hate. Now we all know that christians are just so full of love for atheists and even their fellow christians. We see that here on this forum. I don't think atheists hate religion at all, but you will have it your way. The only defense you have to disagreement is to yell hate. We understand that.

I give you your little god.

 



Meet the Real Christopher Hitchens

 May of 2007. In that month the Rev. Jerry Falwell died, garnering national media attention. The atheist, with his newly released book on atheism, and coveting the attention which he normally demands, was beside himself, outraged especially at liberal media outlets. The following day, Hitchens graced CNN with his judgment on Falwell: “I think it’s a pity there isn’t a hell for him to go to.”

 Led by newsman Anderson Cooper, Hitchens referred to Falwell as an “ugly little charlatan” who was “giggling and s******ing all the time with what he was getting away with.” Hitchens snorted at the idea that Falwell actually believed what he preached, charging that the Reverend only used religion as a means of extorting money from “gullible” and “credulous” people: “He woke up every morning pinching his chubby little flanks, thinking, ‘I’ve got away with it again.’ . . . I think he was a conscious charlatan and fraud.”

When confronted for his hatefulness on Fox News’ “Hannity and Colmes,” Hitchens refused to show the slightest pity even toward the grieving family, saying, “I don’t care whether his family’s feelings are hurt or not.”

If Hitchens, along with other atheists, makes the complaint that atheists are unduly outcast by the majority of the American populace, well, perhaps he can at least understand why they are disliked. He makes it quite easy for us to do so.

 

Originally Posted by b50m:

Vic,

It was long enough without you copying it again.

 

 

Best,

Lots of hate in that for Christians.  OK, so there are no Christians  who follows the Bible as it was written. There wouldn't be any one left if they did between the celibacy and the death penalty for fornication.

 

Since you atheists don't believe there are any gods or christians to start with, why worry about what they do?

 

Is it some kind of game to throw out verses and say "gotcha!...I am an intelligent atheist and I know more about your myth than you do. I am smarter than you and can prove that you don't follow your myth correctly."

 

Really, does that even make sense?

 

Man is imperfect. Some are more imperfect than others. Some are just plain rotten. Most just try to survive from day to day. Most are nice caring people. It's just the rotten ones who make the news.

 

Hate the myth?  Stop reading about it.

b,

 

When Christians butt out of politics and education, specifically science, I'll go away.  Until then, we are in a battle for the truth. 

 

You will say that moderate Christians do not interfere, but they DO give refuge to the radicalized elements among their club.

 

In the objective pursuit of truth, Christianity often falls way short.  This is the discussion in which we find ourselves.

 

DF

Wow,

 

Jennifer has found a web site which has lots of articles which proves that Christianity, God, Jesus Christ, and the Bible -- are bad.  And, the person who writes this tripe is so HONEST, he/she will not even put his/her name on the articles or on the web site.  Why?   What does this say about the writer?  It says that he/she is so ashamed of the writings, or so unsure of what he/she has written -- that this person will not even claim to be the writer.

 

Yep, Jennifer, that web site, and anyone who copy/pastes from it, sure have a lot of credibility.   That is almost as believable as Al Williams' Urantia Book bible.  But, it seems that when the septic tank is cleaned; more refuse just flows into it again.  And, my Friend, you have found a lot of refuse.

 

But, to answer the question you THOUGHT you were asking:  "Are there any perfect Christian believers?"

 

Nope!  Just a bunch of "forgiven sinners" -- who have His promise of eternal life in Christ, who have His promise that we will spend eternity in the presence of God. 

 

And, people such as your writer -- have His promise also.  You can read about it in Revelation 20:11-15.

 

God bless, have a wonderful,  blessed day,

 

Bill

 

 

b,

 

When Christians butt out of politics and education, specifically science, I'll go away.  Until then, we are in a battle for the truth. 

 

You will say that moderate Christians do not interfere, but they DO give refuge to the radicalized elements among their club.

 

In the objective pursuit of truth, Christianity often falls way short.  This is the discussion in which we find ourselves.

 

DF

If it was an objective pursuit, you might be right. But since the word objective means:

 

objective  
— adj
1.     existing independently of perception or an individual's conceptions:
2.  undistorted by emotion or personal bias

 

 


and so far , since no atheist has ever been able to discuss religion without interjecting their condescending perception of it, I think your pursuit is invalid. I agree science and religion should not mix (except for the scientific discoveries by members of a religious group), and I even agree it should stay out of politics (as far as the quality of a candidate, but never will), but I don't agree it should stay out of education. Religion should be taught at an appropriate level as a philosophy of belief. It should include all major religions and make mention of minor ones. It should also include all the nut cases in history that have killed in the name of religion. It should also allow the student to decide what they wish to pursue. An informed choice is always the correct answer, isn't it?

 

And it should also mention that there are atheist leaders who want to shut down all religious beliefs if they could. You can deny that fact, but we both know, that when the lights are off and no one is listening, I can bet you that Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and a few others all laugh about getting rid of that dammed religion. After all, from your perspective of it causing death and destruction on a regular basis, that would be the logical and rational position.

 

 

 

Edited to add a few things.

Last edited by b50m

False Teachers...I Did Not Send Them!


Evangelical Christianity spends a tremendous amount of money and energy spreading its doctrines and influence throughout the world. Their goal is to convince everyone that they must believe what evangelical Christians proclaim as "truth".
People are told that they need Jesus because they are lost hopeless wretches that will face the wrath of God unless they believe what Christianity tells them.
The use of both fear and reward are commonly employed tactics used by evangelicals to manipulate people and suck them into the cult called Christianity.
When asked for proof that their claims are valid, evangelicals will point to the Bible, trumpeting that it displays perfect harmony, contains no inconsistencies, and reflects accurate history.
Unbelievers are told that they must accept the Bible as the Word of God, and that it represents the ultimate source of authority.
According to the advertising of evangelicals, Christianity represents a belief system far superior to all other forms of spirituality. Christians are God's official mouthpieces on earth.
This is true because Christians say so, and because they claim the Bible backs them up.
In other words, Christianity is reality and everyone must accept it or perish.

While assertions such as these seem to be filled with universal absolutes and appear to be backed by Biblical authority, they are in actuality a fraud.
Christianity is not at all well supported by the Bible if all of the scriptures are to be taken seriously.
Although fundamentalist Christians constantly claim that they want to serve God, they often laugh in the face of the Bible God, discarding any scripture that interferes with their version of what God should be.
They most certainly do not serve the Bible God that is found in the Hebrew scriptures, but instead worship and pray to a deity of an alternate construction.
It should also come as no surprise that the Christian version of God, particularly the "Trinity", conveniently matches up with both their fears and preferences.
However, despite all the attempts by evangelicals to scare and indoctrinate people into accepting this hybrid theology as reality, half-baked assertions and popular propaganda are not binding on anyone other than those that want it to be binding on them.
Despite all the fluffy talk about how people can find great peace and freedom by believing in fundamentalist Christianity, it represents a form of nervous slavery, where a Godly ultimatum drives the decision making process and sets the agenda.

While evangelicals present Christianity as being based on "facts", it is a belief system built largely on dreams, visions, and personal revelation.
These dreams occur as part of New Testament "history", and serve to launch Christian doctrine as well.
A dream of Joseph serves as a key part of the birth narrative for Jesus as told in the Gospel of Matthew.
A dream or angelic encounter involving Mary serves to reinforce the birth tale told in the Gospel of Luke.
A dream or vision of Peter serves to justify abandoning some of God's stipulations and requirements concerning the law in Acts 10: 9-23.
A dream of John serves to bolster a tale about Jesus coming to rule earth in the Book of Revelation.
Perhaps most importantly are the vision(Acts 9:3-6) and mystical, dreamy revelations of a Jewish apostate called "Paul", which serve as primary justification to launch a new religion.
The teachings of Paul often contradict the Word of God but are used in almost every sermon delivered from the pulpits of Christian preachers.

Christianity routinely takes the Hebrew scriptures and uses bits and pieces of them to serve as "proof" or validation for Christian beliefs, in an attempt to create a supreme, authoritative religion.
A devious Christian dreamer called Paul ripped pieces out of the Hebrew scripture and used them to promote and advertise Jesus as the authority that people should worship

 

http://agnosticreview.com/false.htm

 

Originally Posted by b50m:

 

 

b,

 

When Christians butt out of politics and education, specifically science, I'll go away.  Until then, we are in a battle for the truth. 

 

You will say that moderate Christians do not interfere, but they DO give refuge to the radicalized elements among their club.

 

In the objective pursuit of truth, Christianity often falls way short.  This is the discussion in which we find ourselves.

 

DF

If it was an objective pursuit, you might be right. But since the word objective means:

 

objective  
— adj
1.     existing independently of perception or an individual's conceptions:
2.  undistorted by emotion or personal bias

 

 


and so far , since no atheist has ever been able to discuss religion without interjecting their condescending perception of it, I think your pursuit is invalid. I agree science and religion should not mix (except for the scientific discoveries by members of a religious group), and I even agree it should stay out of politics (as far as the quality of a candidate, but never will), but I don't agree it should stay out of education. Religion should be taught at an appropriate level as a philosophy of belief. It should include all major religions and make mention of minor ones. It should also include all the nut cases in history that have killed in the name of religion. It should also allow the student to decide what they wish to pursue. An informed choice is always the correct answer, isn't it?

 

And it should also mention that there are atheist leaders who want to shut down all religious beliefs if they could. You can deny that fact, but we both know, that when the lights are off and no one is listening, I can bet you that Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and a few others all laugh about getting rid of that dammed religion. After all, from your perspective of it causing death and destruction on a regular basis, that would be the logical and rational position.

 

 

 

Edited to add a few things.

--------------------------------------

Very good answer b.

"but I don't agree it should stay out of education. Religion should be taught at an appropriate level as a philosophy of belief."

Comparitive religion certainly should be an elective in public schools.  The trick would be to find a teacher that would treat each religion equally in order to avoid lawsuits.  So the reality is that kids kid a small taste of it in history class.

Originally Posted by b50m:
" “I don’t care whether his family’s feelings are hurt or not.”"

 

Fallwell was an evil charlatan who bilked innocent people out of millions of dollars int he name of his invisible friend.  One of my favorite quote from Hitchens was "if you give Falwell an enema, you could bury him in a matchbox."

Thousands of little old ladies are now a little wealthier since his death.


Originally Posted by Unobtanium:

"but I don't agree it should stay out of education. Religion should be taught at an appropriate level as a philosophy of belief."

Comparitive religion certainly should be an elective in public schools.  The trick would be to find a teacher that would treat each religion equally in order to avoid lawsuits.  So the reality is that kids kid a small taste of it in history class.

What ticked me off when my kids were in school was religion was discussed in their history books. All except Christianity. They had studies of Roman and Greek mythologies, Buddhism, Islam, Confucius, etc in detail. Christianity had a paragraph. It seemed the separation of church and state ONLY applied to Christians. They even had a Kwanzaa day.  ARRRGGGG. If one is discussed, they all should be discussed evenly.

 

As for Fallwell, never listened to the man.  He had some weird ideas about God's will, and I'm sure he wasn't the best example of a good person. But, if some little old granma found comfort listening to him, then that's fine. To insult him on national TV after he dies and tell his family basically: " I don't care if you are hurting, I don't care if you loved him, he was an ass and deserved to go to Hell", made Hitchens the most loathed person of the day.

 

Will you admit you were pleased he died?

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

And it should also mention that there are atheist leaders who want to shut down all religious beliefs if they could

 

 

Who are they?

 

As I said:

Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and a few others all laugh about getting rid of that dammed religion. After all, from your perspective of it causing death and destruction on a regular basis, that would be the logical and rational position.


You want them to announce it on TV?  LOL, like that would happen. Read some of the atheist forums. The ones who really let loose and tell how they actually feel about religion. It's that dark little secret you all talk about when no one is listening. But, of course, I'm only guessing based on the way religion is mocked and ridiculed at every turn. The attack on Falwell's character, Mother Teresa, the Popes, Robertson, Roberts, etc...all show how much religion is loathed by the non-religious.

Scanning through the news, you will see people doing horrible things to each other, no religion needed. The hot sauce mom, (who wanted on TV), the shooter of Gabby Giffords, the BTK killer, etc all just people who went nuts. Those are your delusional folks. Those are the ones who need mental help.


Check out your own side jenn. I know my side has wackos and admit it. How about you?

It's that dark little secret you all talk about when no one is listening. But, of course, I'm only guessing based on the way religion is mocked and ridiculed at every turn. The attack on Falwell's character, Mother Teresa, the Popes, Robertson, Roberts, etc...

 

 

Talking when no one is listening? Falwell, Robertson, Roberts-not sure who that is-Oral Roberts? They're all or were insane. Mother Teresa, the Popes, mostly talked about or run down by people of other denominations when they're not attacking Mormons or anyone else that worships differently.

Let me answer your questions first.

 

What's an atheist god? Does it have a name? Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, etc...

My side? What is my side? The atheist side, of course.

 

So all religious leaders are insane. Well, that makes it easier to insult them, I guess.

Yes, the Catholics are attacked from both sides. Explains why HOD and VP left.

 

Here is a good site for you to expound on the evils of religion with others who take a more 'vocal' approach. Obviously, they don't have a word filter.

http://ravingatheists.com/foru...t=Falwell&page=2

What's an atheist god? Does it have a name? Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, etc...

My side? What is my side? The atheist side, of course.

 

So all religious leaders are insane.

 

 

 

 

I'd guess those men would be surprised to find out they're considered gods by the christians. They're certainly not my gods, I have none. I didn't know atheism was a side. All religious leaders are insane? Your words, certainly not mine.

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