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Tithing.

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gbrkgbrkOld Faithful
Sadly many Churches require their pastors to teach the tithe as stewardship, as a requirement of new testament Christians and as an obligation. The Tenth originated in the Old Testament as a Law to the Jews and was a way that they kept the temple and the Government (which was run by the priest) in business and working. It was like a tax. There was never such a command given to new testament saints to honor or pay the tithe (the tenth) but you wouldn't know it by listening to many pastors and preachers.

Is Giving, of your money, time, deeds, scriptural? Yes it is but Christ, nor the new testament put any kind of limit or percent upon what is given. I have a real problem as many pastors obligate their congregations into giving at least 10% as if it was a law. It's akin to some pastors who obligate their congregation to observe the Sabbath Laws on Sunday. Actually it's non-scriptural and offensive to me when they do. The best verse, I believe, in the New Testament regarding giving isn't always taught in it's context by many preachers as they use the pulpit as a bully pulpit at times due to the financial conditions of the Church however the Scriptures teach another story to many that teach on tithing.

2 Corinthians 9:7-8 (CEV) 7 Each of you must make up your own mind about how much to give. But don't feel sorry that you must give and don't feel that you are forced to give. God loves people who love to give. 8 God can bless you with everything you need, and you will always have more than enough to do all kinds of good things for others.

Note that New Testament Christians were not given some numerical limit by which they must give to or come up to. They also were specifically told that they were not to be "forced" to give. Giving would be a blessing and given as they saw need and as needs were revealed. It was scriptural that the disciples, of Christ, were provided for by the Churches they visited and the Churches were kept up by the members however many of the early Churches were no more than meeting in Christian's Homes.

I'll post an excerpt from one of my study books

The first Mosaic law on this subject is recorded in Lev 27:30-32. Subsequent legislation regulated the destination of the tithes (Num 18:21-24, 26-28; Deut 12:5, 6, 11, 17; Deut 14:22, 23). The paying of the tithes was an important part of the Jewish religious worship. In the days of Hezekiah one of the first results of the reformation of religion was the eagerness with which the people brought in their tithes (2Ch 31:5, 6). The neglect of this duty was sternly rebuked by the prophets (Amos 4:4; Mal 3:8-10). It cannot be affirmed that the Old Testament law of tithes is binding on the Christian Church, nevertheless the principle of this law remains, and is incorporated in the gospel (1Co 9:13, 14); and if, as is the case, the motive that ought to prompt to liberality in the cause of religion and of the service of God be greater now than in Old Testament times, then Christians outght to go beyond the ancient Hebrew in consecrating both themselves and their substance to God. Illustrated Bible Dictionary: And Treasury of Biblical History, Biography, Geography, Doctrine, and Literature.

New Testament Giving, to support the ministry, was not an obligatory thing and certainly didn't have the 10% limitation put upon in.

2 Corinthians 8:10-15 (CEV) 10 A year ago you were the first ones to give, and you gave because you wanted to. So listen to my advice. 11 I think you should finish what you started. If you give according to what you have, you will prove that you are as eager to give as you were to think about giving. 12 It doesn't matter how much you have. What matters is how much you are willing to give from what you have. 13 I am not trying to make life easier for others by making life harder for you. But it is only fair 14 for you to share with them when you have so much, and they have so little. Later, when they have more than enough, and you are in need, they can share with you. Then everyone will have a fair share, 15 just as the Scriptures say, "Those who gathered too much had nothing left. Those who gathered only a little had all they needed."
In comment on that the Life Applications Bible says the following on the verses in this context:

8:10-15 The Christians in the Corinthian church had money, and apparently they had planned to collect money for the Jerusalem church a year previously (see also 9:2). Paul challenges them to act on their plans. Four principles of giving emerge here: (1) Your willingness to give enthusiastically is more important than the amount you give; (2) you should strive to fulfill your financial commitments; (3) if you give to others in need, they will, in turn, help you when you are in need; (4) you should give as a response to Christ, not for anything you can get out of it. How you give reflects your devotion to Christ.
8:12 How do you decide how much to give? What about differences in the financial resources Christians have? Paul gives the Corinthian church several principles to follow: (1) Each person should follow through on previous promises (8:10, 11; 9:3); (2) each person should give as much as he or she is able (8:12; 9:6); (3) each person must make up his or her own mind how much to give (9:7); and (4) each person should give in proportion to what God has given him or her (9:10). God gives to us so that we can give to others.
8:12 Paul says that we should give of what we have, not what we don't have. Sacrificial giving must be responsible. Paul wants believers to give generously, but not to the extent that those who depend on the givers (their families, for example) must go without having their basic needs met. Give until it hurts, but don't give so that it hurts your family and/or relatives who need your financial support.Life Application Study Bible.

If you give, that's a wonderful thing as you are helping support the ministries of the Church but we are not under the same Old Testament laws as Israel was under concerning the tithe which also included their fields and crops that they produced as well as spoils of war when they would battle, and win, against a foe.

Consider the following:
GIVING
RULES FOR
Mat 6:1-4
1Co 16:2
2Co 8:11
2Co 8:12
2Co 8:14
2Co 9:6
2Co 9:7
from: Nave's Topical Bible: A Digest of The Holy Sciptures.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi VP,

You ask, "I have a general question - I know what the Bible says about Tithing, but I am curious as to if "people in general" do tithe the prescribed 10% of each paycheck. Also, is it true that some churches actually make you show them a W-9 before joining?"

Actually, tithing is an Old Testament teaching. The only place it is mentioned in the New Testament is in Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 -- when Jesus Christ is chastising the Pharisees.

In 2 Corinthians 9:7, we are told, "Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

Should we give generously to support the work of the Lord in our church and in our communities? Yes. We should give both financially and in many other ways. Should we take food from the mouths of our children to allow us to tithe to the church? No. I believe God wants us to take care of our family first; and then take care of church and community needs.

For about a year, because of a problem with a pastor, my wife and I did not have a home church. So, we found missionaries and pastors in the Philippines and sent the money we would have given to a home church, to these ministries. And, we know it went to good use.

Once, we sent $150 to a pastor in Mindanao. I later received an e-mail from him telling me that his wife had needed an operation and he had been praying where to get the money for it. Then, the money Dory and I sent arrived -- just as they needed it. And, it was just the additional amount they needed for the operation. That, my Friend, is God using the small amount we could give -- much more effectively than if we had given it to a local church.

God uses us to answer prayers of others in need. And, Dory and I have been on both ends of that prayer action. About fifteen years ago, I had been out of work for a while and we were hurting financially. I had a $98 electric bill due -- and I had received the final notice: pay this by Thursday or we turn off your electric power. Thursday afternoon, I went to the electric company, wrote them a check for the $98 -- and prayed to God to provide a way to cover that check.

The next evening, Friday, a dear friend came to our door. When I answered the door, Rose gave me an envelope and told me, "God put on my heart to bring this to you." I asked her to come in but she did not have time; she had another place she needed to be -- but, she was faithful to do as God had put on her heart.

When she left, I closed the door and opened the envelope. It contained a one hundred dollar bill -- enough to cover that $98 check I had written. Our friend, Rose, did not know we had this need -- and, she did not have $100 to spare. She was hurting almost as bad as we were then. But, she was faithful to God. That, my Friend, is the power of prayer -- and it is an example of being a faithful servant when God calls upon us to help another.

So, should a church demand that members tithe 10% of their income? No. And the only churches which do this are those bound in legalism. The only time I have ever been asked to sign a pledge or contract of giving was when I was in a large church in the late 1950s/early 1960s -- and I did not sign their pledge. I attended the church for many years; but, I would not sign a contract.

As a matter fact, I will not sign any kind of contract, pledge, or whatever with any church. My commitment is to Jesus Christ; not to a human organization. I am a part of the body of Christ, I enjoy fellowship with other Christian believers, I enjoy worshiping my Lord with like minded believers. But, if any church came to me and told me that I had to sign a contract to be part of their congregation -- I would bid them "adios, vaya con dios" and find another Christian church.

I know that most of the larger Southern Baptist churches want church members to have on file in their office a letter of membership. And, if you move from that community and seek another church in your new community -- before you leave the old church, you pick up your membership letter and take it with you to the next church. I have been involved in several Southern Baptist churches -- and I have never signed or had a letter of membership. As I said, my contract is with my Lord -- it is not written on paper -- but, in my heart. Membership and tithing are between me and my Lord.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Shoals ResidentShoals ResidentHall of Famer
I am a member of what is considered a "megachurch" in the Shoals and have been for 20 years. There is a false rumor that the church requires you show a W-9. We all get a good laugh when we hear this rumor because it is so rediculous. I have never been asked to show a W-9 nor do I know of anyone who has.

I was having a phone conversation with a man once (he did not know I was a member) who stated that he had been a member of my church and had left because they had asked for a W-9. When I told him I was a long standing member and had never been asked for one he started back peddling and said, "Well they didn't actually but I knew they were going to."

Personally I do believe in tithing because of Matthew 23:23: Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. These were the words spoken by Jesus. I believe that if He had intended to do away with tithing He would not have stated "without neglecting the others." He would have stated "You no longer have to tithe."

Does my church check up on me to see that I tithe? Definitely NOT. Do I make it my business to see that others tithe? Definitely Not.

I believe it is a form of worship. For me when I tithe it is a reaffirmation that I am depending on God to meet my needs, not on my employer, the government or any man. He has never failed me and has proven many times that He is in control, loves me and will take care of me to the end.
SardonicPoetSardonicPoetHall of Famer
Today's tithing, just like the professional church (large buildings, multiple departments and programs, paid staff) that it creates are both products of the modern church, not the teaching of Jesus Christ.

New Testament believers conducted house churches and large pot-lucks for their gatherings.

The industry that the Christian faith has become in the past century, while it has had it's impact on individual communities, simply creates a system ripe for corruption, materialism, elitism, and distraction from personal faith.
AS Aude SapereHall of Famer
Tithing meant different things to different groups of people. For example, after the Divorce from Rome through the 19th Century, the tithe was imposed on all in Great Britain. Even the Scottish Church (through the Kirk) and the Church of England, on the Channel Isles and Mann. Much of it was "in kind' that is to say, the crops were collected in the tithe barn at each parish. That which was not given the pastor (the glebe) was then used for the poor and the disabled and the schooling.


The New England Puritans and Separatists once they had a unified Congregational Church also forced the tax on non-Congregational people under law -- one of the reasons the First Amendment was passed.

I have in the past when upper middle class, tithed at 10%. I do not now, as my pension barely covers my food and especially medicines.

10% sounds great, until one realizes it was the pay for the Levites and Priests of the Old Testament and not enjoined on Christians.

A wealthy clergy is a powerful clergy and something I wish to avoid. There are simply too many lay and lay/religious groups out there I support through prayer and a sometimes offering as well as my oblation of cash at the offertory during the Eucharist to obligate myself to gyms for Jesus, anyone asking my income while the Franciscans are doing great work in the RC and Episcopal Church to ignore.
AS Aude SapereHall of Famer
I did not mention that the old French colonial tithe was also still imposed in Quebec after its conquest by Britain!

The Irish had the Church of England and then Church of Ireland imposed upon them as well.

So does anyone else see why Madison and Jefferson wanted state sponsored religion completely out of American government and v.v. for absolutely no religious test for say Baptists or Catholics who under the Articles of Confederation had such in New England and had to pay tithes?

This "perfect now as it always was" admiration of the earlier settlers needs to end and end now. The Glenn Beck Vaporub tears may be shed, but it does not pass the stink test.
Chuck NorrisChuck NorrisHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
I'm all for tithing. As a matter of fact, tithing is for sissies.

I'm for halving. Come on, True Christians! Give half! Before taxes, dadgummit! We're talking about God here.


Christians like Mother Theresa, Nate Saint, and countless others have given and continue to give far more that 50%.
Road PuppyRoad PuppyOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Ronnie P.:
Not a lot of Atheists feeding people or giving their life to helping people is there.


Oh. You tore your @$$ on THAT one...

Of all the.......!?!


...And just how would ya be knowing that, Baka?

Some of us atheists, like myself stood guard, right alongside Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and every other flavor of believers ready to do violence on your behalf so you wouldn't have to learn to speak Russian or just outright die in a thermonuclear holocaust while you slept soundly in your bed at night worrying about somebody dropping the "F-Bomb." All gave some-Some Gave all. But you didn't see us...
We then sent our children off to war to liberate people we didn't even have a vested interest in so they might eventually live better and so that you'd continue to be safe so you could pass judgement upon us without first having a clue..
But you didn't see them either....

If that ain't giving, I dunno what is..

Some of us atheists, like myself and my "unsavory" biker buddies donated thousands of dollars contributing to causes such as The Walter Reed VA hospital, Wounded Warriors, Katrina relief funds, Surviving families of military personnel killed in action to help cover funeral and living expenses, and contributing to other causes such as breast cancer research (Us two-wheeled cowboys just LOOOOVE us some breasteses! Big Grin) through memorial rides, rallies and bike shows.
But you didn't see us....

We collected toys with the Marine Corps League for "Toys For Tots" and then distributed them.
But you didn't see us...

We collected food and clothing for the less fortunate and then made sure it got to those who needed our help.
But you didn't see us.....
Many of my brethren cut off their flowing locks and donated it to Locks Of Love for cancer patients so they wouldn't have to wear hats while they were enduring chemotherapy.
But you didn't see us....


Personally Ronnie, I think you've got some COLOSSAL gall to suggest that atheists don't help people and that they are incapable of compassion and caring. Kiss my @$$.

So you just keep telling yourself that you're a right and good proper Christian and that you're better than everybody else because you chuck a buck or three into the preacher's plate every sunday.... Lemme know how that works out for ya.

Would YOU have done any of what we do?

I'm guessing not without a whole lotta complaining and whining for the easy stuff and not ever for the hard stuff.


HOOAH!


Man, I hate 'armchair experts."
Last edited by Road Puppy
seeweedseeweedOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi VP,

You ask, "I have a general question - I know what the Bible says about Tithing, but I am curious as to if "people in general" do tithe the prescribed 10% of each paycheck. Also, is it true that some churches actually make you show them a W-9 before joining?"

Actually, tithing is an Old Testament teaching. The only place it is mentioned in the New Testament is in Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 -- when Jesus Christ is chastising the Pharisees.

In 2 Corinthians 9:7, we are told, "Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

Should we give generously to support the work of the Lord in our church and in our communities? Yes. We should give both financially and in many other ways. Should we take food from the mouths of our children to allow us to tithe to the church? No. I believe God wants us to take care of our family first; and then take care of church and community needs.

For about a year, because of a problem with a pastor, my wife and I did not have a home church. So, we found missionaries and pastors in the Philippines and sent the money we would have given to a home church, to these ministries. And, we know it went to good use.

Once, we sent $150 to a pastor in Mindanao. I later received an e-mail from him telling me that his wife had needed an operation and he had been praying where to get the money for it. Then, the money Dory and I sent arrived -- just as they needed it. And, it was just the additional amount they needed for the operation. That, my Friend, is God using the small amount we could give -- much more effectively than if we had given it to a local church.

God uses us to answer prayers of others in need. And, Dory and I have been on both ends of that prayer action. About fifteen years ago, I had been out of work for a while and we were hurting financially. I had a $98 electric bill due -- and I had received the final notice: pay this by Thursday or we turn off your electric power. Thursday afternoon, I went to the electric company, wrote them a check for the $98 -- and prayed to God to provide a way to cover that check.

The next evening, Friday, a dear friend came to our door. When I answered the door, Rose gave me an envelope and told me, "God put on my heart to bring this to you." I asked her to come in but she did not have time; she had another place she needed to be -- but, she was faithful to do as God had put on her heart.

When she left, I closed the door and opened the envelope. It contained a one hundred dollar bill -- enough to cover that $98 check I had written. Our friend, Rose, did not know we had this need -- and, she did not have $100 to spare. She was hurting almost as bad as we were then. But, she was faithful to God. That, my Friend, is the power of prayer -- and it is an example of being a faithful servant when God calls upon us to help another.

So, should a church demand that members tithe 10% of their income? No. And the only churches which do this are those bound in legalism. The only time I have ever been asked to sign a pledge or contract of giving was when I was in a large church in the late 1950s/early 1960s -- and I did not sign their pledge. I attended the church for many years; but, I would not sign a contract.

As a matter fact, I will not sign any kind of contract, pledge, or whatever with any church. My commitment is to Jesus Christ; not to a human organization. I am a part of the body of Christ, I enjoy fellowship with other Christian believers, I enjoy worshiping my Lord with like minded believers. But, if any church came to me and told me that I had to sign a contract to be part of their congregation -- I would bid them "adios, vaya con dios" and find another Christian church.

I know that most of the larger Southern Baptist churches want church members to have on file in their office a letter of membership. And, if you move from that community and seek another church in your new community -- before you leave the old church, you pick up your membership letter and take it with you to the next church. I have been involved in several Southern Baptist churches -- and I have never signed or had a letter of membership. As I said, my contract is with my Lord -- it is not written on paper -- but, in my heart. Membership and tithing are between me and my Lord.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


GASP !!!!!

Good post Bill.
b50mb50mOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Road Puppy:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronnie P.:
Not a lot of Atheists feeding people or giving their life to helping people is there.


Oh. You tore your @$$ on THAT one...

Of all the.......!?!


...And just how would ya be knowing that, Baka?

Some of us atheists, like myself stood guard, right alongside Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and every other flavor of believers ready to do violence on your behalf so you wouldn't have to learn to speak Russian or just outright die in a thermonuclear holocaust while you slept soundly in your bed at night worrying about somebody dropping the "F-Bomb." All gave some-Some Gave all. But you didn't see us...
We then sent our children off to war to liberate people we didn't even have a vested interest in so they might eventually live better and so that you'd continue to be safe so you could pass judgement upon us without first having a clue..
But you didn't see them either....

If that ain't giving, I dunno what is..

Some of us atheists, like myself and my "unsavory" biker buddies donated thousands of dollars contributing to causes such as The Walter Reed VA hospital, Wounded Warriors, Katrina relief funds, Surviving families of military personnel killed in action to help cover funeral and living expenses, and contributing to other causes such as breast cancer research (Us two-wheeled cowboys just LOOOOVE us some breasteses! Big Grin) through memorial rides, rallies and bike shows.
But you didn't see us....

We collected toys with the Marine Corps League for "Toys For Tots" and then distributed them.
But you didn't see us...

We collected food and clothing for the less fortunate and then made sure it got to those who needed our help.
But you didn't see us.....
Many of my brethren cut off their flowing locks and donated it to Locks Of Love for cancer patients so they wouldn't have to wear hats while they were enduring chemotherapy.
But you didn't see us....


Personally Ronnie, I think you've got some COLOSSAL gall to suggest that atheists don't help people and that they are incapable of compassion and caring. Kiss my @$$.

So you just keep telling yourself that you're a right and good proper Christian and that you're better than everybody else because you chuck a buck or three into the preacher's plate every sunday.... Lemme know how that works out for ya.

Would YOU have done any of what we do?

I'm guessing not without a whole lotta complaining and whining for the easy stuff and not ever for the hard stuff.


HOOAH!


Man, I hate 'armchair experts."


Nice reply puppy. I don't know why 'atheist' has become synonymous with uncaring or selfish. That's just wrong. Just like 'all' Christians are fundamentalists. Live and let live, and give a little help to someone when you can.
FM Former Member
quote:
Personally Ronnie, I think you've got some COLOSSAL gall to suggest that atheists don't help people and that they are incapable of compassion and caring. Kiss my @$$.



Yep. You don't have to be Christian to be compassionate and generous. In fact, there are many Christians who are neither.
Personally I think the "unseen" acts of kindness and generosity are the most significant, because they are done for TRUE CHARITY! not a show, a contest, or to prove anything to anyone....

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