To Bill Gray...

Let me answer that.

46:1 said he had "kicked" gay people, which is physical assault.

He said he verbally abused them "every time he sees em".

He finished his remarks with " I like to thump em every once in a while". Again - physical assault - although thinly veiled.

When I said he could be arrested for such behavior he stated " not if I don't get caught".

The moderators removed his posts for that reason and gave him a warning. Fact.

So sad that you are dodging this question Bill. It affirms what I suspected all along.

Those are some pretty crude remarks against gay people. They are people like anyone else. They don't deserve to be mistreated because of their preferences.

quote:

Those are some pretty crude remarks against gay people. They are people like anyone else. They don't deserve to be mistreated because of their preferences.

Are child molesters "people" like anyone else?


Besides what maas posted is lies and twisted truths.

quote:

Originally posted by 46:1:
What4 wrote...

quote:

Jesus loves the sinner, and He died to save the homosexual just as much as He died to save the backbiter, the adulterer, the fornicator, and all sinners no matter what their sins.

Of course that is if they REPENT...right What4???

Did Jesus die to save these that are continueing to be homosexuals?

It seems you want to take a stand against something, but you want to sugarcoat it where it doesn't sound so bad.

I agree completely that they must repent. I'm sugar coating nothing. Anybody that believes they can continue in their sins, and justifies their unrepentance does not understand God’s grace. Such a person is not a child of God. You can't claim to know and follow Christ while continuing in an unrepentant sinful lifestyle. We have to decide if we are going to follow Christ or not. We don't decide to halfway follow Him. We accept all of Him or nothing.

I strongly stand against any person that says we can be saved and continue in our sinful ways. Our attitude as a Christian will change, and we will have a new desire to follow Christ and please Him in all that we do, say, and think. We can’t serve Christ and live like those in the world.

When I say that we should love the homosexual, I do not intend to mean that a person who continues in homosexuality without repentance or without a change of lifestyle can be saved. The murderer must have it in his heart to change and murder no more. The gossip, the liar, the thief, should all repent and turn from their sin, and no longer gossip, lie, or steal. The person who committed fornication or adultery should turn away from their sin and no longer continue to live in the gutter that Christ saved them from. No person should call themselves a Christian while living in a lifestyle of sin. If a homosexual is not willing to repent and put that sin behind them, then they should understand that they will face the wrath of God to come, just as any other who lives in rebellious and unrepentant sin. There is no sin that God will not forgive us for if we repent. On the other hand, no sin will be forgiven us if we refuse to repent. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and we know that no witch or sorcerer will inherit the Kingdom of God.

However, you cannot justify your hatred for the homosexual person by God's word. We should hate sin, but we should not hate the sinner. The Christian should guard himself and not allow bitterness or hatred to enter in his heart. Those who are God's children will not justify themselves in a life of hatred any more than they will justify themselves in any other sin. We should treat others as we would desire to be treated. We can't win the lost to Christ by showing them hatred. Neither can we win them to Christ by telling them they do not have to repent.

quote:

Are child molesters "people" like anyone else?

.
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If you are so backwards that you think someone is a child molester just because they are gay, then i can see where such limited thought processes would lend themselves to justifying an attack on anyone just because they are gay. in fact, you probably would attack anyone who is different than you.
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.

quote:

Originally posted by lynnblount:

quote:

Are child molesters "people" like anyone else?

If you are so backwards that you think someone is a child molester just because they are gay, then i can see where such limited thought processes would lend themselves to justifying an attack on anyone just because they are gay. in fact, you probably would attack anyone who is different than you.
.

Hi Lynn,

While I agree with you that a person being gay does not make him/her a child molester. Most homosexuals/lesbians love children just as much as anyone else.

On the other hand; since the homosexual/lesbian community cannot propagate or grow itself by normal means of child bearing -- how do they grow?

The only way is to recruit. Where is most recruiting done? On school campuses.

And, with the schools not able, by law, to teach positive moral values -- the children are sitting ducks for anyone who wishes to woo them.

No, we cannot equate homosexuality with child molesting. However, we do have to be aware of this recruiting campaign.

Now, I know that many will be screaming, "Bill, the homosexuals do not recruit on school campuses!"

You are speaking of the majority of that minority. However, the Gay/Lesbian Activist groups, while a minority in their community, are very successful in pushing this agenda. And, of course they have the help and full blessing of the ACLU and the NEA in these efforts.

Lynn, this is a multi-faceted problem -- and we must be aware of and looking at all aspects.

However, the answer to this problem is never hate, violence, abuse, or ostracism.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

The photo below is from the Gay Pride Parade in San Francisco:

quote:

Originally posted by lynnblount:

quote:

Are child molesters "people" like anyone else?

.
.
If you are so backwards that you think someone is a child molester just because they are gay, then i can see where such limited thought processes would lend themselves to justifying an attack on anyone just because they are gay. in fact, you probably would attack anyone who is different than you.
.
.

Goes back thru history. In order to motivate people to fight "in the name of God" one has to conjure up a demon which to fight. The Nazis did a supurbe job of doing so by demonizing the Jews, Gipsy's, and homosexuals back during the late 30's and early 40's. Blame everything on those demonized, which will allow you to ultimately take away their rights, imprison them and even possibly gas and burn them.
Be very very careful of people looking for some group to demonize , you know where that type of thought processes comes from.

quote:

On the other hand; since the homosexual/lesbian community cannot propagate or grow itself by normal means of child bearing -- how do they grow?

The only way is to recruit. Where is most recruiting done? On school campuses.

Homosexuals recruit? Even my 85 year old Baptist grandmother would find this statement ridiculous. Must be stange for Bill when he is made aware of homosexuals who have never even spoken with another homosexual.

Homosexuals have a chance of winning a flat screen T.V. for every new homosexual they recruit. I however think cash is a better motivator. Then they can get what they want or place it back into their conditioning business in hopes of a bigger return with more converts!

In the words of Harper Lee, "Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of another."

quote:

Originally posted by daniel16215:

quote:

On the other hand; since the homosexual/lesbian community cannot propagate or grow itself by normal means of child bearing -- how do they grow?

The only way is to recruit. Where is most recruiting done? On school campuses.

Homosexuals recruit? Even my 85 year old Baptist grandmother would find this statement ridiculous. Must be stange for Bill when he is made aware of homosexuals who have never even spoken with another homosexual.

Homosexuals have a chance of winning a flat screen T.V. for every new homosexual they recruit. I however think cash is a better motivator. Then they can get what they want or place it back into their conditioning business in hopes of a bigger return with more converts!

I know lots of gay people who never knew another gay person growing up. Being gay is not something you wake up one day and decide to be any more than one wakes up and decides to be straight. According to most legitimate research it is genetic and consistantly naturally occuring at the same rate since studies began. In other words homosexuality occurs at the same percentage rate as population growth. There are no more homosexuals by percentage now than 50 years ago. In fact the Kinsey reports done in the mid 20th century reported MORE homosexuals by percentage than later studies. The truth probably lies somewhere in between the 2-10% range.

This is a very interesting information.

http://60minutes.yahoo.com/segment/68/gay_or_straight

Most of you know I am a social worker with 28 years under my belt. I have worked with many individuals both gay and straight. I have also read literally hundreds of studies about sexuality. There is no reliable evidence that sexuality is "learned". It is innate and established early in life.

I will not pretend to know the causes of all homosexuality. There may be more than one, with exacerbating factors.

One theory applying to only a small percentage of homosexuals I learned in Psych Nursing Class. The theory states that those who are small or develop later are prone to teasing (think gym class). They are told so often that they are different they become different.

No theory is proven, but there is certainly more than one out there. Obviously the above theory would not relate to the 250# Alabama fullback.

quote:

Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
I will not pretend to know the causes of all homosexuality. There may be more than one, with exacerbating factors.

One theory applying to only a small percentage of homosexuals I learned in Psych Nursing Class. The theory states that those who are small or develop later are prone to teasing (think gym class). They are told so often that they are different they become different.

No theory is proven, but there is certainly more than one out there. Obviously the above theory would not relate to the 250# Alabama fullback.

"One theory applying to only a small percentage of homosexuals I learned in Psych Nursing Class. The theory states that those who are small or develop later are prone to teasing (think gym class). They are told so often that they are different they become different."

The other side of that theory would be that they ARE indeed "different" and the perception of others is actually fact.



What one must look at is consensus of theories. When the overwhelming number of studies agree then the likelihood of fact is strongly increased. In none of the studies is "choice" a factor in sexuality.

I really don't know enough about medical studies regarding homosexuality to comment on those, but I did have a friend in high school that turned to homosexuality after high school because of her circumstances. She was not born that way. It was a choice, which is exactly what she would tell you. There may very well be a physical reason for people to be homosexual but that is definitely not always true. JMHO

Bisexuals are attracted to both sexes and their sexuality is fluid. In other words they can comfortably move from one sex to the other. They do, however, usually have a slight preference for one over the other. In some cases individuals are more comfortable stating that they are "bisexual" rather than homosexual even thought their general preference would be same sex. Many well known individuals were/are bisexual. Among them are James Dean, Michael Huffington, Jack Kerouac, Nick Adams,Elizabeth Arden, Joan Baez, Leonard Bernstein, Marlon Brando, Will Geer (grandpa Walton), and many more.

I do know about many studies, and have talked with many individuals on the subject as a part of my job for many years. While everyone's "condition" is different, the one common theme is that no one just wakes up and decides to be one or the other. The vast majority of individuals were cognizant of their sexuality early on.

Joy, you spoke of your friend "becoming" gay because of her "conditions". It could be that her conditions made it more comfortable for her to act on her innate feelings. She chose to act on those feelings. In such a case she would be considered bisexual only because she had experienced sex with both men and women. If the feelings were not there to begin with, she would never have acted on them.

quote:

Originally posted by meanasasnake:

quote:

Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
I will not pretend to know the causes of all homosexuality. There may be more than one, with exacerbating factors.

One theory applying to only a small percentage of homosexuals I learned in Psych Nursing Class. The theory states that those who are small or develop later are prone to teasing (think gym class). They are told so often that they are different they become different.

No theory is proven, but there is certainly more than one out there. Obviously the above theory would not relate to the 250# Alabama fullback.

"One theory applying to only a small percentage of homosexuals I learned in Psych Nursing Class. The theory states that those who are small or develop later are prone to teasing (think gym class). They are told so often that they are different they become different."

The other side of that theory would be that they ARE indeed "different" and the perception of others is actually fact.



What one must look at is consensus of theories. When the overwhelming number of studies agree then the likelihood of fact is strongly increased. In none of the studies is "choice" a factor in sexuality.

In the case of these young men being late with Tanner staging and diminutive in size, there would have to be a genetic link with their sexual orientation (as with blue eyes and blond hair), and I have never seen this explored.

Breaking news: Scientists discover...

mean, I guess I should have just told the whole story. What happened to her is the reason I despise gossip, too.

My friend and her sister lived by themselves because their mom passed away & their dad, who was not very involved in their lives in high school, allowed this. So she already had some tough circumstances in her life when the following happened.

A boy asked her out & she declined. She did this as kindly as a person can, but he was ticked off about it. She dated other guys. She simply did not want to go out with him because he was not a good person. He gets mad, starts a false rumor that he looked in her bedroom window & saw her and another girl together. The rumor gets blown completely out of proportion, but the worst thing is that the other girl's parents become so concerned, despite their child's denial of the rumor, that they take it to the principal of our high school. He then tells the girls that they can no longer play sports together & makes them choose. One played basketball & the other softball, so forth and so on. It was unbelievable.

Because these adults (using that term very loosely here) took this action, my friend was labeled and shunned by most of the school. This was our Senior year & it continued throughout our Senior year. She decided that since everyone believed it anyway and were unwilling to accept her as the straight person she was that she'd try homosexuality. She also entered the Air Force after graduation & found several young women who accepted her choice to be homosexual rather than straight. She found comfort among homosexuals that she was not getting from others.

It was a choice based on circumstances that she should never have been placed in. She was/is so intelligent, such a great athlete and a good person. They destroyed her emotionally in one year's time.

I'm not saying that there are no physical reasons for homosexuality. That's a science question. I'm saying that it is not always the case.

Sorry so long, but without all of it, it doesn't hold water.

Wow, I missed a lot by not getting on the forums yesterday

From what I can remember on the now deleted thread, I do remember you (46:1) talking about using a gun to defend yourself. I can't remember the exact wording, but I know you said it, and I know I saw it, and I remember letting out a sigh of disgust.

Are you allowed your opinion? Of course. Are you allowed to use that opinion to threaten others? Of course not. Thankfully, the times daily forums belongs to none of the members- but the newspaper. They can choose to edit, delete or lock whatever they see fit- and in this case, after reading everything today- I think it was justified.

I can't remember a single thing that you have said, 46:1, that I have ever agreed with.

My opinion on this? Is you are the equivalent of a shock jock. You do this to get a rise out of people, and it works. I normally ignore what you reply, because of that, but when it goes to threatening people- it's hard to ignore.

I rarely agree with Bill, but in the fact that no violence is required or necessary when it comes to homosexuals- I do agree.

Now, you are changing your tune, saying that you meant things in other ways. Simple solution there- make your points more clearly.

I have read several people, good standing people, say here and other posts, what you replied on the now deleted thread. Adding perception to that, and then your weak arguement- most would see that they aren't liars or skewing your words. You did that yourself, from what I can tell.

~Amanda

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
mean, I guess I should have just told the whole story. What happened to her is the reason I despise gossip, too.

My friend and her sister lived by themselves because their mom passed away & their dad, who was not very involved in their lives in high school, allowed this. So she already had some tough circumstances in her life when the following happened.

A boy asked her out & she declined. She did this as kindly as a person can, but he was ticked off about it. She dated other guys. She simply did not want to go out with him because he was not a good person. He gets mad, starts a false rumor that he looked in her bedroom window & saw her and another girl together. The rumor gets blown completely out of proportion, but the worst thing is that the other girl's parents become so concerned, despite their child's denial of the rumor, that they take it to the principal of our high school. He then tells the girls that they can no longer play sports together & makes them choose. One played basketball & the other softball, so forth and so on. It was unbelievable.

Because these adults (using that term very loosely here) took this action, my friend was labeled and shunned by most of the school. This was our Senior year & it continued throughout our Senior year. She decided that since everyone believed it anyway and were unwilling to accept her as the straight person she was that she'd try homosexuality. She also entered the Air Force after graduation & found several young women who accepted her choice to be homosexual rather than straight. She found comfort among homosexuals that she was not getting from others.

It was a choice based on circumstances that she should never have been placed in. She was/is so intelligent, such a great athlete and a good person. They destroyed her emotionally in one year's time.

I'm not saying that there are no physical reasons for homosexuality. That's a science question. I'm saying that it is not always the case.

Sorry so long, but without all of it, it doesn't hold water.

Aww, my heart goes out to that lady. That had to be tough, indeed.

What a sad story. I do hope life has taught the other parents more since this situation. I really don't know what else to say, except that you are an awesome friend for being there for her Joy.

~Amanda

I think 46:1 got the boot. I couldn't find him on the member list yesterday.

That was obvious to me too Manda

Thanks, Manda & Justasking. Being the incredible person that she is, she excelled in the Air Force and gets paid well at a great job that she enjoys. I saw her at our class reunion and she's still the same sweet person she always was.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
I think 46:1 got the boot. I couldn't find him on the member list yesterday.

Ahh... Well he can still read it any way, I'm sure, since I sometimes read here without even logging in

~Amanda

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Thanks, Manda. Being the incredible person that she is, she excelled in the Air Force and gets paid well at a great job that she enjoys. I saw her at our class reunion and she's still the same sweet person she always was.

You're welcome, Joy

~Amanda

quote:

Originally posted by Justasking:
That was obvious to me too Manda

I was just hoping I was making sense. LOL

Good to know hun

~Amanda

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
mean, I guess I should have just told the whole story. What happened to her is the reason I despise gossip, too.

My friend and her sister lived by themselves because their mom passed away & their dad, who was not very involved in their lives in high school, allowed this. So she already had some tough circumstances in her life when the following happened.

A boy asked her out & she declined. She did this as kindly as a person can, but he was ticked off about it. She dated other guys. She simply did not want to go out with him because he was not a good person. He gets mad, starts a false rumor that he looked in her bedroom window & saw her and another girl together. The rumor gets blown completely out of proportion, but the worst thing is that the other girl's parents become so concerned, despite their child's denial of the rumor, that they take it to the principal of our high school. He then tells the girls that they can no longer play sports together & makes them choose. One played basketball & the other softball, so forth and so on. It was unbelievable.

Because these adults (using that term very loosely here) took this action, my friend was labeled and shunned by most of the school. This was our Senior year & it continued throughout our Senior year. She decided that since everyone believed it anyway and were unwilling to accept her as the straight person she was that she'd try homosexuality. She also entered the Air Force after graduation & found several young women who accepted her choice to be homosexual rather than straight. She found comfort among homosexuals that she was not getting from others.

It was a choice based on circumstances that she should never have been placed in. She was/is so intelligent, such a great athlete and a good person. They destroyed her emotionally in one year's time.

I'm not saying that there are no physical reasons for homosexuality. That's a science question. I'm saying that it is not always the case.

Sorry so long, but without all of it, it doesn't hold water.

Joy I would say (and I think most mental health professionals would say) your friend is not a lesbian. She is confused.

I don't mean to be crude with the following. It is like when someone has a same sex experience (for lack of a better term) as a good many high school boys (I assume girls?) do. Some folks might think they are gay because it felt good but this in and of itself does not make someone gay. I guess conversely the opposite could happen with a gay person engaging in experimentation with a person of the opposite sex. In both cases the person is confused.

This my be way oversimplified but I think this may sort of sum it up. If you are straight think about your closest friend (of the same sex). You may love them enough to be willing to give your life for them but there is no romantic attraction/bond to/with them. I think this holds true with someone who is gay they may love their friends of the opposite sex enough to die for them but the romantic bond is simply not there.
.

quote:

Originally posted by 46:1:

quote:

Those are some pretty crude remarks against gay people. They are people like anyone else. They don't deserve to be mistreated because of their preferences.

Are child molesters "people" like anyone else?


Besides what maas posted is lies and twisted truths.

46:1
you are like anyone else also spite your hateful attitude against people. Because of your views you shouldn't be beat on or made fun of either.
Child molesters are ones that hurt children, Because someone is gay doesn't mean they are bad people, in fact they can be some of the nicest people you could meet.
46:1 you need to get a new lease on life because by the way you treat people they just might end up defending theirself and turn the tables on you!

Had to delete my post after you edited your's Daniel. It no longer seemed appropriate.

I would say you are correct that she was confused but she did participate in a homosexual lifestyle and she was not born that way. So you can't just hang the "born with it" label on every person that practices homosexuality. Hmm, I wonder if that is why some are better able to leave this lifestyle than others...the ones that want to leave it of course.

I seriously doubt that a good many HS boys have had a same sex experience, but that's just my opinion. I definitely do not agree that girls do. I guess that depends on what you call a good many. But I get the point you are making & agree that one experience would not define a person.

Daniel surely that's not the case with high school boys !!! I know for sure it's not true with the girls and would bet the farm it's not true with the boys either.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Had to delete my post after you edited your's Daniel. It no longer seemed appropriate.

I would say you are correct that she was confused but she did participate in a homosexual lifestyle and she was not born that way. So you can't just hang the "born with it" label on every person that practices homosexuality. Hmm, I wonder if that is why some are better able to leave this lifestyle than others...the ones that want to leave it of course.

I seriously doubt that a good many HS boys have had a same sex experience, but that's just my opinion. I definitely do not agree that girls do. I guess that depends on what you call a good many. But I get the point you are making & agree that one experience would not define a person.

There also could be a little more than she was willing to share. She could have had feelings for other girls but was supressing them because she knew that obviously no one would accept her, which they didn't and she was correct. She could be as mean mentioned earlier and have feelings for both sexes (bisexual), and maybe her interests and feelings changed as she developed and plus the ordeal she went through.

I still think no one has the right to judge your friend. She sounds like a marvelous lady and I would wish her well and hope she finds happiness. I can't believe what some people will do to seek revenge! It's not fair at all what happened to your friend. The rejected date AND the parents of the rumored friend were WAY WAY WAY out of line. And I can't believe the administration allowed it to affect the sports team. That was a private matter and nothing happened at school, so it should never have been an issue.

I don't why I keep repeating this but here goes. First of all, someone said that it was a preference. I knew that I was attracted to guys before I really understood anything about sexuality. And no, no one came to my school and recruited me! This was back in the 1970s when information on the subject was especially hard to find. Thankfully, I read a lot and thanks to books, I learned that there were others just like me. Believe me, it is not an easy thing to discover about yourself and if I had indeed had a preference, I would not have chosen it. As for Bill's statement about the "recruiting," that is one of the oldest lies and load of hogwash ever distributed by the far right. The only reason gay and lesbian organizations are on campuses is to help young gay people deal with who they are - or help those being discriminated against. The whole idea of trying to turn a straight person into a gay person is about the dumbest thing I can think of!

As for Bill's photo, he is being really narrow-minded to think that the men is saying that he is teaching children to become gay. I mean, really, is that what you gather from the photo? I think that the man is saying that he is gay and he is a teacher, like all the other teachers out there.

quote:

Originally posted by Justasking:
Daniel surely that's not the case with high school boys !!! I know for sure it's not true with the girls and would bet the farm it's not true with the boys either.

I have read that it is quite common. Whether it is 80% or 10% I haven't a clue. The information could have been wrong but I have read this in multiple books on Psychology/Sociology. The point I was making (no hostility here just emphasizing what I was trying to convey) was that folks who are gay or straight do sometimes experiment with the other group even if the person finds it physically enjoyable that does not mean the they are necessarily gay or straight.

Thanks, Yo Russ. I don't think so, but if I had not watched her go through it, I'd probably wonder the same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by David L.:
I don't why I keep repeating this but here goes. First of all, someone said that it was a preference. I knew that I was attracted to guys before I really understood anything about sexuality. And no, no one came to my school and recruited me! This was back in the 1970s when information on the subject was especially hard to find. Thankfully, I read a lot and thanks to books, I learned that there were others just like me. Believe me, it is not an easy thing to discover about yourself and if I had indeed had a preference, I would not have chosen it. As for Bill's statement about the "recruiting," that is one of the oldest lies and load of hogwash ever distributed by the far right. The only reason gay and lesbian organizations are on campuses is to help young gay people deal with who they are - or help those being discriminated against. The whole idea of trying to turn a straight person into a gay person is about the dumbest thing I can think of!

As for Bill's photo, he is being really narrow-minded to think that the men is saying that he is teaching children to become gay. I mean, really, is that what you gather from the photo? I think that the man is saying that he is gay and he is a teacher, like all the other teachers out there.

^^^^^^^^^^^

What he said...

e

Yeah, what David said!

Bill Gray isnt gay,at least i dont believe so

My bad,Bill i now read,you are right on target,in today'society anything not pro gay is considered "close minded"...In todays world so many would call Christ "close minded"..YOU ARE 500% correct on EVERYTHING

quote:

Originally posted by Good Old William Nads:
My bad,Bill i now read,you are right on target,in today'society anything not pro gay is considered "close minded"...In todays world so many would call Christ "close minded"..YOU ARE 500% correct on EVERYTHING

Some people ARE closed minded. You can say what ever you wish. Believe what ever you wish. No one is stopping you. I think the problem is that not everyone agrees with you.Christ was a rebel in his day, even hung out with former prostitutes and bucked the Jews at every turn. I am always amused when people use the phrase "In todays world." That is the ONLY world. Everything else is passed or to come.

There is no such thing as "500% right".