Two Cheers for Rod Blagojevich

quote:

Originally posted by Howard Roark:
Extra,

Good, you can cut'n paste a prosecutor's opinion from Wiki. You still have not shown how Libby's disclosure would have helped Rove or Cheney, as the informaton was already disclosed by Armitage. Logic trail is missing.

That is not so. Libbly's effort to cloud the investigation hindered the investigation itself.
When Bob Woodward testified under oath that he had been given Plam's identity by a white house official, it was a revelation that this leak existed before the one involving Libby. There were so many leaks on this, and much cover up. To this day, we still don't know who all was involved.

quote:

Originally posted by Extra260:

Ha Ha Ha. You just can't stand the truth.

I like that! Reminds me of my 11 year old nephew.

You presented your facts Extra, they just can't bring themselves to admit they were wrong. Worse yet some don't even care. Funny to see Right Winger's criticizing Prosecutors and championing the defendents.

Libby ran interference and so did Armitage and the Corporate Media. I would have to go back and check exactly but as I recall when Scott McClellan quit he made some sort of statement about secret goings on at the White House. regarding Libby. The War was a lie and they were trying to protect that. The whole adminstration was lie.

Libby was just part of the whole scheme who took the fall. Tenet also. Funny too how they blame the CIA for "Bad intelligence" the BUsh gives Tenet the "Medal of Freedom."

They were like the CEO's of Enron. Took over, sold our assetes, emptied the tresury and ran up a debt.

Suddenly now the Corporate Media wakes up to the debt.

Bob Woodward of the Watergate fame, testified that he got Plame's name from non other than Carl Rove himself. Carl Rove said he got from Novak and Novak said he got it from Armitage. The problem with this as you can see is that it is a circle with an open link, who was that link? Libby. And that ties the office of the Vice president with the President's most senior advisor.

The planned cover up involved the premise that the White House did not believe she qualified at "Deep Cover" since she was not working covertly at the time. It is a technicality, but is the eventual reason Armitage was not prosecuted. There was ambiguity as to whether or not the outing of Plame was a crime. The result was never in doubt, it ended her career. Retaliation for her husbands quest for truth.

Libby was prosecuted because his obstruction dragged out the whole process. If you remember Judith Miller was the reporter he divulged the info to, she went to jail for several months for refusing to co-operate with the prosecutor. During which time Libby gave his testimony. Miller finally co-operated and her testimony became the basis for his prosecution.

Howard,

Why you bother with this child troll, is beyond me. As you're more a libertarian, that a conservative like myself, I guess you have more patience with such.

He's made statement after statement that is false. The Brits at MI6 still state that Saddam sent representatives to Niger.

Obviously, Plame was not a covert agent. She was on the public directory. I've seen the thing, so please don't insult my intelligence by stating otherwise.

I see Extra is indulging in circular logic, complete with a false premise. "Bob Woodward of the Watergate fame, testified that he got Plame's name from non other than Carl Rove himself. Carl Rove said he got from Novak and Novak said he got it from Armitage."

Obviously, from the statement, Armitage was the original source. Where was Libby in the circle? Karl Rove only learned of Plame after Novak. Libby was a sideshow who got entangled in Fitzgrald's investigation. After years of work and millions spent, old Scooter was the only person prosecuted -- rather pathetic.

I wouldn't wish to live in Illinois, Fitzgerald now has a real case with large fish to fry. Democrat politicos must be sweating bullets.

Interventor,

Agreed, I've indulged the trolls. However, baiting those suffering from terminal BDS can be fun, in a slightly perverted way.

What they will do after 20 January, is beyond me.

Fitzgerald spent years and millions to end up convicting only a minnow like Scooter. He had to justify his investigation somehow, I guess.

Now, he's got his teeth in a governor and his chief of staff in Illinois. Illinois is rather like chum for a shark like Fitzgerald. If Obama doesn't dismiss the guy, Fitzgerald will have a trophy room filled with Deomcrat heads.

If I were a Democrat politico with even a whiff of scandal, I'd be turning state's evidence, looking into a nation with stiff extradition requirements or building up a fake ID to disappear.

Obama swam in that school of bottom feeders. Even, if he is clean, he will be tainted by their mere presence. Republicans must maintain a more correct skepticism and not fall for a Obama Dysfunctional Disease. No use in copying the far left of the Democrat party. Enjoy the circus and plan for the future.

quote:

He's made statement after statement that is false. The Brits at MI6 still state that Saddam sent representatives to Niger.

Based on documents that now have been proven to be forgeries.

Here is a nice link so you can further your education.
Link

Extra,

You're referring to the forged documents supposed supplied by Italian intelligence. Sorry, but that is old news. MI6 discounted the documents in their final assessment.

Again, MI6 still stands by the reported visit by Iraqi personnel concerning trade with Niger. Niger only produces goats, yellowcake and onions for export. From personal observation, I know Iraq had plenty of goats. Therefore, unless you believe the trade mission concerned the export of onions, one must draw a conclusion antithetical to yours.

I suppose the 550 tons of yellowcake sent from Iraq to Canada was-- what?--baked goods?

The 550 tons of yellowcake was left over from Saddam's original nuclear program, so rudely interrupted by the Israelis!

As to more info on the referenced trade mission:

"Wissam al Zahawie, the Iraqi official whom the United Nations' International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) says went on a "trade mission" to uranium-exporting Niger in 1999, had a record of promoting resentment against America and Israel and of making Iraq's case for building a nuclear bomb.

Zahawie's record raises questions about the thoroughness of the IAEA investigation of his trip to Niger and its candor in reporting the findings of that investigation.

At a 1995 UN conference on extending the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), Zahawie (sometimes spelled "Zahawi") argued that unless Israel was stripped of nuclear weapons, other states would need to engage in "a secret or public" arms race to "restore a certain balance."

More at Link


Again, Extra, do you really believe this man was interested in importing onions? And, if so, I suggest treatment for BDS in the terminal stage.

quote:

Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
I suppose the 550 tons of yellowcake sent from Iraq to Canada was-- what?--baked goods?

Zippee,
That uranium was bought back in the early 80's by Saddam. It was under seal by the International Atomic Energy Association until the invasion by Bush. Sometime after the invasion until the time U S troops appeared on the spot those seals were broken and some of the contents of the building pilfered.

Saddam has had that material almost 20 years and never developed the technology to enrich it or create a bomb. So if he had over 500 tons and didn't know what to do with it, what was the purpose of buying more?

quote:

You're referring to the forged documents supposed supplied by Italian intelligence. Sorry, but that is old news. MI6 discounted the documents in their final assessment.

Howard,
the British assessment of those documents and the conclusion they drew from them is that they contend the accuracy of the documents to this day.
The I.A.E.A. said it only took them a few hours to conclude the documents were fraud.

First of all, nuclear weapons are not the only weapons of mass destruction. Second, it would not be necessary to build a nuclear weapon when one can be purchased (or could be, until late in the 1990s) from the former Soviet Union. Finally, even yellowcake in the form shipped to Canada, can be used in a dirty bomb.

We didn't know what Saddam thought. We only knew what he said. Had he been telling the truth, and he popped off a nuke in Washington DC, the libtards would be foaming at the mouths for the US to apologize for whatever we did to precipitate his action. If he'd really screwed up and popped one off in Israel, we'd be decontaminating vast stretches of irradiated desert and bulldozing bleached bones, while the libtards screamed about Israel's unreasonable response to a simple expression of frustration. The important point is that, had he been telling the truth, millions of lives would have been at risk. The price was simply too high to do a "wink-wink-nod-nod" and "He's just screwing with us!"

If your next-door neighbor says he has The Bomb, you can probably discount what he says. If it's an aggressive, wealthy country, then you should probably pay attention.

quote:

Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
First of all, nuclear weapons are not the only weapons of mass destruction. Second, it would not be necessary to build a nuclear weapon when one can be purchased (or could be, until late in the 1990s) from the former Soviet Union. Finally, even yellowcake in the form shipped to Canada, can be used in a dirty bomb.

We didn't know what Saddam thought. We only knew what he said. Had he been telling the truth, and he popped off a nuke in Washington DC, the libtards would be foaming at the mouths for the US to apologize for whatever we did to precipitate his action. If he'd really screwed up and popped one off in Israel, we'd be decontaminating vast stretches of irradiated desert and bulldozing bleached bones, while the libtards screamed about Israel's unreasonable response to a simple expression of frustration. The important point is that, had he been telling the truth, millions of lives would have been at risk. The price was simply too high to do a "wink-wink-nod-nod" and "He's just screwing with us!"

If your next-door neighbor says he has The Bomb, you can probably discount what he says. If it's an aggressive, wealthy country, then you should probably pay attention.

Total blathering conjecture in the face of factual evidence. the argument you are making was made before the war and was part of Bush's excuse to go to war, all based on faulty, fraudulent info and just down right lies.

To use your argument, we must invade Iran NOW! we must invade North Korea NOW! and any other country, like Pakistan and India who was WMDs.

I see Extra conveniently left out any comment on al Zahawie's trade mission visit to Niger in 1999, as reported by the UN.

That would interfere with his BDS mindset.

Again, does anyone think al Zahawie was seeking to import onion!

quote:

Originally posted by Howard Roark:
I see Extra conveniently left out any comment on al Zahawie's trade mission visit to Niger in 1999, as reported by the UN.

That would interfere with his BDS mindset.

Again, does anyone think al Zahawie was seeking to import onion!

I personally believe he was there to import goats...you know, mail-order brides.

Iraq has plenty or goats. Plenty of goat lovers too, I suspect!

In the article Frank Rich points out that the Libby scandal and it's ties to the lies about Iraq are much more serious then the Blogojevich scandal that the Corporate Media is Focusing on. And to keep the many scandals of the Republican administration in mind. It was one of the most corrupt.

Plame's identify was covert and revealing it is a crime, except of course if you are a Conservative Government official. Even if Armitage "slipped" in revealing it, which is nonsense, he would point out revealing it is a crime and the information is "off the cuff," which reporters do honor. If there were real justice there would have been a real investigation. Libby lied, "lapses in memory" are the usual excuse of the scoundrel. It ended the trial back to the White House.

MI6 may continue on believing the Niger letter but keep in mind they were key players in support of the Iraq War and the Drowning Street Memo stated they believed Saddam had no WMD but the plan was to "Fix the facts." Britain had their own scandal with lies in the media.

Joseph Wilson found the French controlled the uranium and had very good records and accountability. The letter was an obvious forgery yet Bush continued to use it even after Tenet told him to remove it from his speech.

Our own government has officially stated that they found no WMD program and no evidence he had one. Not only did they inspect Iraq they interviewed Iraqi scientists. Bush even joked about, so much for respect for the soldiers and people who lost their lives. Had this disgusting coldness and disrespect for the dead and maimed been done by a Democrat he would have been drummed out of office by the Right Wing and Corporate Media and the incident hung around the Democrats neck for years.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard Roark:
I see Extra conveniently left out any comment on al Zahawie's trade mission visit to Niger in 1999, as reported by the UN.

That would interfere with his BDS mindset.

Again, does anyone think al Zahawie was seeking to import onion!

Howard, You are a drowning man sinking in your misinformation and grasping for what you can just before you go under.

1. There was no discussion between Iraqi officials and Niger about the purchase of uranium.

2. The uranium was nis not Nigers to sell, it belongs to France.

3. The Niger government was not willing to trade with iraq because of U.N. sanctions.

4. The idea of the purchace of uranium was an afterthought in the mind of the leader of Niger and only after significant time had passed.

5. this whole train of though you are trying to force is all based on FORGED DOCUMENTS.

Extra,

Simply put, MI6 did not base its asessment on the forged documents. You're still barking up a dead tree stump.

Again, why did a nuclear expert like al Zahawie vist Niger, if not to inquire about yellowcake. Why, in Hades would one go to such a misbegotten part of the world? I do because its part of my profession, not for my health or as a tourist.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard Roark:
Extra,

Simply put, MI6 did not base its asessment on the forged documents. You're still barking up a dead tree stump.

Again, why did a nuclear expert like al Zahawie vist Niger, if not to inquire about yellowcake. Why, in Hades would one go to such a misbegotten part of the world? I do because its part of my profession, not for my health or as a tourist.

Howard,
Give facts for your misguided and delusional rants, not the imagry from a rough night of eating chili dogs.

I have over and over repeatedly posted the facts. That has been enough for the international comunity, and enough for the Prez, Condi Rice and others for apologizing for using flawed intelligence ( the forged documents in question) as the reason for going to war.

quote:

Originally posted by Extra260:
I have over and over repeatedly posted the facts. That has been enough for the international comunity, and enough for the Prez, Condi Rice and others for apologizing for using flawed intelligence ( the forged documents in question) as the reason for going to war.

You have reported things purported to be facts. I'm pretty sure you could tell Auburn what they should have done in their game against Alabama, now that it's over. I'm impressed with those who can cast criticism over people who have to make life-or-death decisions in real time, based on questionable information. The fact that you can blithely point out mistakes after the fact is a stunning commentary to your intellectual abilities. I'm certain if Obama or Clinton made the same decision, the BDS from which you suffer would cause you to simply write them off as "Tiger Errors" made in the heat of battle, and excusable. When it's from someone with whom you cannot agree, you criminalize it and fill it with evil intention.

Intelligence is a business that consists totally of shades of grey, but the consequences of guessing wrong are starkly black and white. As you cannot see past the bumper-sticker mentality of the left, I expect this will go well beyond your ability to comprehend.

Zippee,
If you have read my posts you know i have been a staunch supporter of Bush and voted for him twice. I have never voted for a democrat for president,(since 1984). When the whole Libby affair came to light we were assured by Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and all the other right wing defenders that this was much to do about nothing. When Libby was convicted and the truth came out it became starkly clear. This president and his White House attempted to punish and silence their critics, mainly one Joseph Wilson, U N Weapons investigator and expert on Iraq's WMD programs.

You say that the president had to make a decision with grey areas. The war on terror took us to Afganistan, the war on Saddam took us to Iraq. Bush deliberately pushed us, and insisted that he was an imminent threat, and demanded imminenet action. The rush to war in Iraq was not from making a grey area decision. It was a calculated decision based on a quick victory and a speedy and easy occupation because "The Iraqi people want Democracy".

The truth be known, Iraq was a divisive country who as a whole does not want Democracy. We have seen over 4000 Americans killed and numerous others maimed, and most came after the cessation of hostilities. The big blunder of Bush was the underestimation of the insurgency. This has lead to the real investigation and questioning of the motives that took us to war. Rightly so, history will not be kind to Bush over this. And it is high time there was a real investigation in this country.

Howard,

Why do you bother with Extra, an obvious troll? When presented with direct evidence, he retreats into a rant. Trolls suck the life out of you and waste your time.

Federal marshals guarding Saddam stated he told them he kept up a pretense of having WMD to keep the Iranians and others from invading. He played a bad hand and suffered the consequences. While assisting the Iraqi MOD setting up their logistics system, marshals I spoke to told me similar information.

You may quote other nations' intelligence agencies thought he had WMD to no avail. Extra and his fellow trolls will not listen. They are too deep into BDS.

As to Extra's claim he voted for Bush, forget it. That's another troll ploy.

quote:

You may quote other nations' intelligence agencies thought he had WMD to no avail. Extra and his fellow trolls will not listen. They are too deep into BDS.

Interventor,

I see that reading comprehension is not your strong suit. The nations who believed Saddam was pursuing WMDs based it on a false report that now know was a forged document. The IAEA said it only took them a couple of hours to determine the document was a fraud. Of all things they were able to use Google to determine this. A sad commentary on the French, Italian, British and American intelligence who have even more complicated methods at their disposal.

Let me ask you this. In light of the fact we now know that Iran was the real nuclear threat in the area. How is it we went after Saddam in Iraq?

Extra,

I was addressing Howard! When I desire to solicit yours, I will notify you.

However, to answer your ridiculous statement. The documents, in question, arrived in US hands circa October 2002.

Foreign and US intelligence assets assessments of Saddam's capacity for WMD were developed years before those extraneous documents.

The WMDs in question were mainly chemical and biological in nature, not nuclear. British, French and German industries sold Saddam the equipment and chemicals necessary for such WMD. Therefore, they suspected he still had such a program.

Development of any nuclear WMD, was far in the future, as Iraq had no reactors, thanks to the Israeli air force.

Henceforth, I suggest you deal with real world information and not leftwing blogs saturated in BDS miasma.

Now, be a good little troll child and crawl back under your bridge. The adults are talking.

Interventor...it's refreshing to have another professional who knows the subject on this post. I appreciate you and Howard's insights. It's amazing how those with bushian dementia forget that chemical weapons are WMDs, and how Saddam used them on Kurds. On the ground in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia (and later Iraq), rest assured that we NEVER forgot it.

When I deployed to Iraq, as a civilian employee, to work at their MOD, I had the full MOPP gear.

The documents were questioned by the US also. Tenet told Bush to remove the statement from his speech but he continued. The documents are not the only evidence of Bush's lies. Interesting I read that the break in at the Italian Embassy took place in Jan of 2001, well before the 9/11 attacks. They had been writing since the late 1990's about the need to assert US interests in the region and to begin by removing Saddam. They wanted control of the oil and Saddam would not give it to them. They tried to remove him by coup but couldn't so they "Fixed the Facts."

They have been exposed.

Liddy perjured himself to stop the investigation knowing he would be pardoned by Bush. Everybody said it woukld happen during his trial while the Corporate Media Pundits did their best to try to discredit Fitzgerald and the investigation. Despite headlines nany in the Progressive Media questioned Fitzgerald's desire to even get to the "Bottom" of the crime.

You made your points Extra and most of the Nation can see through their lies. Howard and Interventor's haughtiness and condescending posts shows the true nature of the right. They believe themselves to be superior and no lie is too big to push. They use insults and lies because they believe themselves to be superior. The nation has seen through them and has rejected their lies.

The US has now stated there were no WMD and Bush has even joked about it. You see the way they will lie, and they arrogantly insult uou.

Better to let them live in their lies.

quote:

The US has now stated there were no WMD and Bush has even joked about it. You see the way they will lie, and they arrogantly insult uou.

Better to let them live in their lies

Pogo, I have utterly thrashed their arguments over and over and yet they come back and try to make the same argument again and again.

Bush has apologized for using in his words " Bad Intelligence" as the basis of going to war. The "Bad Intelligence" is the report from the British and American intelligence that was based on forged documents. Documents that the International Atomic Energy Agency said it took them a couple of hours using Google to discredit and prove to be forgeries.

These documents were the basis of those sixteen words in Bush's state of the Union Address that was the difference in getting national support for the war.

Condi Rice last week apologozed for the error of going to war on "Bad Intelligence".

Everyone except Howard, Zippee, and Interventor knows we went to war on a lie.

quote:

Originally posted by Extra260:

quote:

The US has now stated there were no WMD and Bush has even joked about it. You see the way they will lie, and they arrogantly insult uou.

Better to let them live in their lies

Pogo, I have utterly thrashed their arguments over and over and yet they come back and try to make the same argument again and again.

Bush has apologized for using in his words " Bad Intelligence" as the basis of going to war. The "Bad Intelligence" is the report from the British and American intelligence that was based on forged documents. Documents that the International Atomic Energy Agency said it took them a couple of hours using Google to discredit and prove to be forgeries.

These documents were the basis of those sixteen words in Bush's state of the Union Address that was the difference in getting national support for the war.

Condi Rice last week apologozed for the error of going to war on "Bad Intelligence".

Everyone except Howard, Zippee, and Interventor knows we went to war on a lie.

So bill clanton lied. Who would have thunk it. Typical defacrat I guess. In clanton's 1998 speech, he said Iraq was going to have to be dealt with eventually because of their wmd. I guess the 500,00 Kurds died of smoking or eating fatty foods. The only things you've thrashed are the truth.

quote:

So bill clanton lied. Who would have thunk it. Typical defacrat I guess. In clanton's 1998 speech, he said Iraq was going to have to be dealt with eventually because of their wmd. I guess the 500,00 Kurds died of smoking or eating fatty foods. The only things you've thrashed are the truth.

kperk,
I know this is hard for you but try to focus. Everyone knew that Saddam had chemical and possibly biological weapons.

The Bush adminstration made it's case for war over the purposed attemt by Saddam to develope NUCLEAR weapons. The centerpiece of Bush's case for war was the attempt my Saddam to buy yellow cake uranium from Niger. We now know that was never true. Beside that, Saddam already had over 500 tons of yellow cake and had no means to develope it into weapons. In fact it was under seal from the IAEA and inspected on regular basis.

It was the staement that Saddam had used WMDs before and if he were allowed to get Nuclear he would use them. Saddam was declared to be an " Imminent Threat". Time has shown that Iran was the real threat.

How come we are not invading them?

Pogo and Extra are so immersed in BDS, they've missed the entire point. The WMD which most concerned the Government were chemical, with biological a secondary and nuclear a tertiary, at best.

Remember, President Chirac promised French intervention if chemical weapons were used during the invasion. That was a thinly veiled threat to Saddam, Chirac's good friend.

To state nuclear weapons were the reason is either stupid or ignorant, take your pick.

As interventor stated, without a reactor, Saddam could not make nuclear weapons. Was he planning to re-instate the program, in the future? Yes, but that was not the reason the US invaded.

Neither, Pogo or Extra have explained al Zahawie's visit to Niger, shown in the UN report.

quote:

Neither, Pogo or Extra have explained al Zahawie's visit to Niger, shown in the UN report.

Howie,
It's up to you to prove that he was there to buy nuclear material. those of reputation who investigated have proven that yellowcake was not discussed.

Have you any facts beside hairs on the back of your neck, gut instinct, looking at goat entrails, or crystal balls?

quote:

To state nuclear weapons were the reason is either stupid or ignorant, take your pick.

Sorry but that was THE stated reason.

quote:

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction: The Assessment of the British Government, also known as the September Dossier, was a document published by the United Kingdom Labour government on 24 September 2002 on the same day of a recall of Parliament to discuss the contents of the document.[1] The paper was part of a campaign by the government to bolster support for the 2003 invasion of Iraq. It contained a number of allegations according to which Iraq possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs), including chemical weapons and biological weapons. The Dossier even alleged that Iraq had reconstituted its nuclear weapons programme. Without exception, all of the allegations included within the September Dossier have since proven to be untrue, as shown by the Iraq Survey Group.

Here is the link Link

Pogo, Extra,

Interventor and I are not arrogant, mere professional who know of what we speak, not BDS sufferers.

As to the invasion being for oil, why did the US not seize control of the oil producing areas, instead of encouraging national and, now, provincial elections. If the purpose were to seize control of oil assets, the US would have recruited Kurds, Christians and Yezidi as pathans to form a force controlling oil producing regions?

If you're going to fantasize about imperial aspirations, learn the basics, first!

I have never said the war was about oil. I have said all along the war was about revenge.

quote:
Neither, Pogo or Extra have explained al Zahawie's visit to Niger, shown in the UN report.

Howie,
It's up to you to prove that he was there to buy nuclear material. those of reputation who investigated have proven that yellowcake was not discussed.

Have you any facts beside hairs on the back of your neck, gut instinct, looking at goat entrails, or crystal balls
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Why would a nuclear hawk, like a Zahawie, visit such a backwater such a Niger? Was he importing onions an chickpeas? Iraq has plenty of goats.

Extra,

To state Bush only waged the war for revenge is pathetic.

Pogo made thev statement the invasion was for control of the oil.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"They wanted control of the oil and Saddam would not give it to them. They tried to remove him by coup but couldn't so they "Fixed the Facts."

They have been exposed.

Liddy perjured himself to stop the investigation knowing he would be pardoned by Bush. "

____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Poor Pogo is so far gone, he's fantazing about Nixon. It was Libby, not Liddy!

As I've shown, Scooter Libby, added nothing to publicizing Plame as a CIA employee.

BTW, Interventor considers me a moderate. LOL

quote:

Two Cheers for Rod Blagojevich

WAS the TOPIC i thought