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A man heckling First Lady Laura Bush and daughter Jenna outside the 92nd Street Y was arrested after he punched a wheelchair-bound girl whose parents had told him to shut up, authorities said Wednesday.

German Talis, 22, was shouting obscenities at the Bushes, who were leaving the building Tuesday, when he crossed paths with Wendy and John Lovetro and their daughter Maureen, 18, who has cerebral palsy.

They had been in the audience to hear the Bushes talk about their children's book, "Read All About It."

"He began yelling about Iraq and Iran at Jenna Bush. She was waving at the crowd. I told the guy, 'What are you doing? Shut up. This is about a child and books,' " said John Lovetro. "He was unperturbed. I said, 'Get out of here! You're being a moron!' "

The next thing he knew, Talis was allegedly punching Maureen, a fan of the first lady since meeting her in 2004.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352498,00.html
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Well.........here is MEANASASNAKE Bush hater posting again. Goodness gracious...you really hate GW don't you? This proves you are a typical left winger. Pity.
HATE HATE HATE

quote:
Originally posted by meanasasnake:
Bush is awful. I would not walk out my front door to "meet" him. I absolutely despise him and feel he has been the Republican version of Jimmy Carter. That does not mean I condone such behavior. Pretty disgusting individual.
I just get really tired of hearing all the old gripers on here fussing about Bush protecting their lazy butts. Protecting their freedoms to sit here and fuss about not having terrorists on their doorstep. I don't get it. He has been great from all I have seen. I would vote for him again, a 3rd time. Better than the choices we have running now!
quote:
Originally posted by DEENALYNNE:
I just get really tired of hearing all the old gripers on here fussing about Bush protecting their lazy butts. Protecting their freedoms to sit here and fuss about not having terrorists on their doorstep. I don't get it. He has been great from all I have seen. I would vote for him again, a 3rd time. Better than the choices we have running now!

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

Thank you for making this statement!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
quote:
Originally posted by DEENALYNNE:
I just get really tired of hearing all the old gripers on here fussing about Bush protecting their lazy butts. Protecting their freedoms to sit here and fuss about not having terrorists on their doorstep. I don't get it. He has been great from all I have seen. I would vote for him again, a 3rd time. Better than the choices we have running now!


This has nothing to do with the story.

IF the man assualted a person, especially handicaped person, he needs to be locked up. I dont care who was there.

Furthermore, Bush came to my worksite and I wouldnt walk across the street to see him. He is responsible for terrible lies and death.

Yes, I know you would vote for him again, thats why I hold voters with your viewpoints partialy responsible for the state of affairs in the US.
quote:
Originally posted by DEENALYNNE:
I just get really tired of hearing all the old gripers on here fussing about Bush protecting their lazy butts. Protecting their freedoms to sit here and fuss about not having terrorists on their doorstep. I don't get it. He has been great from all I have seen. I would vote for him again, a 3rd time. Better than the choices we have running now!


so would I Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken:
In 20 years people will regard Bush as one of the better Presidents. And I would vote for him a 3rd time also.


LMAO. I love it. Denial at its best. I mean what else can we ask for?

Just which part of this Presidency are you most thankful for? The recession? War? Dead soldiers? High Prices of the most basic of needs like FOOD and GAS???? In twenty years I'll be around 50 and I hope to God that we have a President digging us out of this hole that we are in. Whats so pitiful is our childrens children are going to have a hard time getting out of this debt that Bush has gottn us into. I am so happy that you are tickled to death with your choice. When your children are going to be paying the price for it.
Hey Ignorance....maybe you need to change you letter to a CRIMSON A to get the picture!
Remember........what you said about GW is exactly what they said about FDR when he was president. Does TVA ring a bell?

quote:
Originally posted by SO TIRED OF IGNORANCE:
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken:
In 20 years people will regard Bush as one of the better Presidents. And I would vote for him a 3rd time also.


LMAO. I love it. Denial at its best. I mean what else can we ask for?

Just which part of this Presidency are you most thankful for? The recession? War? Dead soldiers? High Prices of the most basic of needs like FOOD and GAS???? In twenty years I'll be around 50 and I hope to God that we have a President digging us out of this hole that we are in. Whats so pitiful is our childrens children are going to have a hard time getting out of this debt that Bush has gottn us into. I am so happy that you are tickled to death with your choice. When your children are going to be paying the price for it.
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
Hey Ignorance....maybe you need to change you letter to a CRIMSON A to get the picture!
Remember........what you said about GW is exactly what they said about FDR when he was president. Does TVA ring a bell?

quote:
Originally posted by SO TIRED OF IGNORANCE:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chicken:
In 20 years people will regard Bush as one of the better Presidents. And I would vote for him a 3rd time also.


LMAO. I love it. Denial at its best. I mean what else can we ask for?

Just which part of this Presidency are you most thankful for? The recession? War? Dead soldiers? High Prices of the most basic of needs like FOOD and GAS???? In twenty years I'll be around 50 and I hope to God that we have a President digging us out of this hole that we are in. Whats so pitiful is our childrens children are going to have a hard time getting out of this debt that Bush has gottn us into. I am so happy that you are tickled to death with your choice. When your children are going to be paying the price for it.

Hi,

When I was your age, we were still in a war started by Kennedy (Dem), escalated by Johnson (Dem) and finally ended by Nixon (Rep).

58,000 killed, over 300,000 wounded -- and that's not counting those psychologically wounded but not diagnosed. We called it Vietnam.

In 1970 we had a recession and unemployment with lines wrapping around the block to collect unemployment -- a result of the Dem war in Vietnam.

Somehow, we survived and today you, at age 30, are telling us that Bush is doing this same thing to us. However, you overlook one key fact: the Senate and Congress are Dem controlled. Why has the price of gas gone up over another dollar since the Dems took control of both houses?

I will tell you why. That is the price they are willing to pay in order to paint the Reps black -- in their attempt to win the presidency for the Dems.

They would sell you, their own mother, and all America down the drain, without a second thought, in their attempt to win the White House.

And, today, we are seeing the results of the Dems lust for power -- at every gas pump, in every food store, every time you pay your utility bills -- and it will get worse during the rest of 2008 and into 2009. For, regardless of who wins in November -- it will take a big part of 2009 just to recover; if they even make the effort. If the Dems win, they will so busy creating new social programs that they will not even bother. If they win, expect to see gas at over $4.00 all over America, even in Alabama.

Welcome to the life of politics -- regardless of which side of the aisle you sit on.

This is just another reason I want to see more Christian influence in Washington DC. Will that cure the complete problem? No. For Christians also come in all sizes, shapes, and commitment. There are strong Christians -- and there are weak Christians. However, I would rather see Christians, regardless, setting the moral tone for America.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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EXCELLENT POINT BILL!!! COULD NOT HAVE BEEN SAID ANY CLEARER!!

That is a really good point. Gas prices and food prices have went out the roof under the DEMS!

Now lefties........don't use the argument that everything was going down hill before the DEMS took office? If you use that argument..........same here for GW and Brother Clinton. The country was going to heck in a hand basket under Brother Bill and Bush just inherited the mess.

Sorry I beat you all to the punch.
Is this what your refering to MLentz:

Remember the election in 2006?
A little over one year ago:

1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;
2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
3) The unemployment rate was 4.5%.

Since voting in a Democratically controlled Congress
in 2006 we have seen:

1) Consumer confidence plummet;
2) The cost of regular gasoline soar to over $3.50 a
gallon;
3) Unemployment is up to 5% (a 10% increase);
4) American households have seen $2.3 trillion in
equity value evaporate (stock and mutual fund losses);

5) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $1.2
trillion dollars;
6) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.

America voted for "change" in 2006, and we got it!

Remember it's Congress that makes the law, not the
President. He has to work with what's handed to him.

Taxes...Whether Democrat or a Republican you will find
these statistics enlightening and amazing.

www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html<
/A>
quote:
Originally posted by DEENALYNNE:
I have found that when the Republicans are actually in control our finances are much better. When the dems or "dims" get in control everything goes downhill. I hope everybody thinks about this come November!


Now, Deenalynne, THAT's the crux of your problem. You actually believe the Dems THINK for themselves. After all the posts on this forum, you should know better than that! Wink
Republicans notoriously cut taxes. But this administration has cut taxes AND racked up an ENORMOUS amount of debt. How? From a war that GWB started. Not the Democratic Congress. It was Republican when he was first elected until 2003.

Things WERE going downhill from 2000! Gas has been rising since 2000/2001. I began driving in 2001 and was shocked at the pumps as a senior with a measely part time job. All my money went into my tank. When I was driving with a learner's permit, my parents let me fill up and it was definitely not as high as post-9/11.

Election results:
http://zfacts.com/p/447.html


"We still haven't secured our ports against nuclear terrorism. The $1 trillion we've spent on the war could have funded the annual budget of the Department of Homeland Security 28 times over."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...AR2007111600865.html

How do Republicans propose we pay back our debt to other countries anyway?
quote:
Things WERE going downhill from 2000! Gas has been rising since 2000/2001. I began driving in 2001 and was shocked at the pumps as a senior with a measely part time job. All my money went into my tank. When I was driving with a learner's permit, my parents let me fill up and it was definitely not as high as post-9/11.


You are too young to remember long gas lines and high prices (adjusted for inflation) during President Carter. There were times when you could not buy gas. He tried to regulate it and made more of a mess. The President DOES NOT CONTROL gas prices.
Everyome sitting around and blaming the other side is why things will not improve. The reason gas and food have gotten so expensive is because of speculators who are investing in them and driving up the prices. We saw it with real estate also.

As far as I am concerned, it is IMMORAL to Speculate on survival necessities and should be illegal as well.

http://www.williampfaff.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=306
Mlentz-
If you are really expecting JJ to actually answer a question. JJ usually just throws out off topic jabs and irrelevant arguments. Then when you take the time to counter them one after another, the whole thread gets off subject. Go thru and read threads that JJ has posted on and you'll see examples if it without fail. It is easier to throw out "red herrings" than have to deal with difficult questions. He's not the only one though.
Although I disagree w/ GW on border sec. and illegal immigrants, I too would vote for him a 3rd time.
If you want to blame someone for high gas prices, Moby is correct, but our congress has more to do with it than anybody. We have so much oil, our great grandkids grandchildren will still be using it. But we can't drill for it. The DIMS give in to the environmentalists so we can't drill in Alaska, or so far off-shore you can't see the rigs, and in the last month, 3 of the largest discoveries of crude have been found, but we won't be able to get to it because of dims and enviro-wackos. Then congress adds about 40 cents a gal. onto the price, which by the way is more than the oil co's make on a gallon, and they force oil co's to use blends in certain parts of the country, which hinders the already bogged down refining process, because we haven't built a refinery in this country in decades. And the DEMS have the audacity to blame BUSH when they have been making energy policy for all those decades. Now to the REPS in congress, they are gutless and haven't make their case to the thinking American people. There are a few good ones, but for the most part, they want to get along with the DEMS and the media.
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
JJPAUL,
Please give me the definition of FACISM. Please.....no please..........tell me what you think the definition of this word means.

quote:
Originally posted by JJPAUL:
Bill, Your picture of the flag and cross speaks words. Fascism will be Wrapped In The Flag And Carrying A Cross.


A perfect example of leftard bumper sticker philosophy.
quote:
Posted 28 April 2008 06:47 PM Hide Post
Everyome sitting around and blaming the other side is why things will not improve. The reason gas and food have gotten so expensive is because of speculators who are investing in them and driving up the prices. We saw it with real estate also.

As far as I am concerned, it is IMMORAL to Speculate on survival necessities and should be illegal as well.



Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cool
Skymaster, Gas was at 2.48 a gal in 2005 and it would go back and forth and went up and stay up.The cost of regular gasoline soar to over $3.50 a gallon and soon to be $4.00 a gal. Bush if he wanted to he could put a freeze on gas like Carter and Clinton did. Bush won't do it.


America voted for "change" in 2006, and we got it! No we didn't!! We got Bush's veto.


America voted for "change'' in 2006 to stop Bush, and filibuster by the republicans.

Since voting in a Democratically controlled Congress
in 2006 we have seen:



Bush veto every bill they have passed.

The democrats get filibuster by the republicans. The republicans will not go against Bush and oil companies.
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
JJPAUL,
Please give me the definition of FACISM. Please.....no please..........tell me what you think the definition of this word means.

quote:
Originally posted by JJPAUL:
Bill, Your picture of the flag and cross speaks words. Fascism will be Wrapped In The Flag And Carrying A Cross.


When I refer to FASCISM, I am talking about CORPORATE FASCISM.



There isn’t a CEO in America that is worth 2.5 million dollars compensation a year. Yet many are receiving compensation well above this amount. Who can ignore the lucrative retirement package given to the retired chairman of Exxon, Lee Raymond; who can ignore the sizable profits posted by oil companies while consumers hawk their valuables to pay for the gas just to get to and from their jobs? Who can ignore the millions of gallons of oil sitting in barges off the coastline of the United States while oil companies claim a shortage and jack up the prices?

Then, of course, there was the Enron debacle in which Enron employees were caught on tape laughing about how they were bleeding the consumers, and especially old ladies, dry. When Enron went bankrupt, the employees were left without a job, without retirement, with nothing, while Kenneth Lay and his minions are certainly not left wanting for money. And while Lay and his minions may be convicted, they most likely will spend their time behind bars in a cushy federal facility built especially for rich white collar criminals.

The evening news last night, on the national level, showed pieces and parts of hearings on Capitol Hill concerning the bilking of the United States taxpayers by companies contracted by the feds to clean up the mess left behind when Hurricane Katrina blew threw. The estimate of $300,000,000 of wasted taxpayer dollars was probably on the conservative side. When corporations rule government you have CORPORATE FASCISM.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Stuter/stuter89.htm
Gracieadeline,
Thanks for the comments. You know? You are exactly right about JJ. No substance........just hot air. He (or she) will not debate the facts and when you back (he or she) in a corner.....they throw out that "red herring" you mentioned.
In regards to Bill Grays picture of the USA in Red White and Blue with an image of a cross...........terrible........horrible......unspeakable..........detrimental to our society......flagrant........demeaning........evil........ghastly........

Oh please save us JJ! Please! Bill Gray has combined our country with Christ.......those evil Christians.

JJ? Maybe you do or don't read the bible. I might recommend the BEATITUDES for pleasant reading. Again.....just a suggestion. Now remember JJ..........I am not FORCING you to read the bible nor am I FORCING YOU to become open minded......I know that may be hard for you.

quote:
Originally posted by gracieadeline:
Mlentz-
If you are really expecting JJ to actually answer a question. JJ usually just throws out off topic jabs and irrelevant arguments. Then when you take the time to counter them one after another, the whole thread gets off subject. Go thru and read threads that JJ has posted on and you'll see examples if it without fail. It is easier to throw out "red herrings" than have to deal with difficult questions. He's not the only one though.
Although I disagree w/ GW on border sec. and illegal immigrants, I too would vote for him a 3rd time.
If you want to blame someone for high gas prices, Moby is correct, but our congress has more to do with it than anybody. We have so much oil, our great grandkids grandchildren will still be using it. But we can't drill for it. The DIMS give in to the environmentalists so we can't drill in Alaska, or so far off-shore you can't see the rigs, and in the last month, 3 of the largest discoveries of crude have been found, but we won't be able to get to it because of dims and enviro-wackos. Then congress adds about 40 cents a gal. onto the price, which by the way is more than the oil co's make on a gallon, and they force oil co's to use blends in certain parts of the country, which hinders the already bogged down refining process, because we haven't built a refinery in this country in decades. And the DEMS have the audacity to blame BUSH when they have been making energy policy for all those decades. Now to the REPS in congress, they are gutless and haven't make their case to the thinking American people. There are a few good ones, but for the most part, they want to get along with the DEMS and the media.
You are so so so wrong JJ!
THOSE EVIL OIL COMPANIES? Did you take basic economics in high school or even college?
Let me break it down for you in really plain terms that even a liberal left wing like yourself can understand.

If I have a piece of chewing gum that everyone in the world uses on a daily basis......I am going to make a butt load of money because this is my product and world loved (chews) it. Ok.....JJ......stay with me here........the more people buy of my product.......the more money I make.

Now.......on the flip side......if I have a tamborene that no one likes because it sounds flat AND NO ONE BUYS IT.........gues what.......I don't make as much money as the guy selling the chewing gum.

DON'T BLAME THE OIL EXECS FOR MAKING A PROFIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They have a product that THE WHOLE STINKING WORLD USES!! Would you not concur that they would make enorumous profits? What's wrong with that? They are successfull because they made many sacrifices in their lives to get where they are today.

Just like you liberal left wing nut jobs. THE ENTRAPRNUERS ARE THE BAD GUYS. You think we should spread out our wealth evenly.

Go vote for O'Bama.

quote:
Originally posted by JJPAUL:
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
JJPAUL,
Please give me the definition of FACISM. Please.....no please..........tell me what you think the definition of this word means.

quote:
Originally posted by JJPAUL:
Bill, Your picture of the flag and cross speaks words. Fascism will be Wrapped In The Flag And Carrying A Cross.


When I refer to FASCISM, I am talking about CORPORATE FASCISM.



There isn’t a CEO in America that is worth 2.5 million dollars compensation a year. Yet many are receiving compensation well above this amount. Who can ignore the lucrative retirement package given to the retired chairman of Exxon, Lee Raymond; who can ignore the sizable profits posted by oil companies while consumers hawk their valuables to pay for the gas just to get to and from their jobs? Who can ignore the millions of gallons of oil sitting in barges off the coastline of the United States while oil companies claim a shortage and jack up the prices?

Then, of course, there was the Enron debacle in which Enron employees were caught on tape laughing about how they were bleeding the consumers, and especially old ladies, dry. When Enron went bankrupt, the employees were left without a job, without retirement, with nothing, while Kenneth Lay and his minions are certainly not left wanting for money. And while Lay and his minions may be convicted, they most likely will spend their time behind bars in a cushy federal facility built especially for rich white collar criminals.

The evening news last night, on the national level, showed pieces and parts of hearings on Capitol Hill concerning the bilking of the United States taxpayers by companies contracted by the feds to clean up the mess left behind when Hurricane Katrina blew threw. The estimate of $300,000,000 of wasted taxpayer dollars was probably on the conservative side. When corporations rule government you have CORPORATE FASCISM.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Stuter/stuter89.htm
Mlentz-
If you are really expecting JJ to actually answer a question. JJ usually just throws out off topic jabs and irrelevant arguments. Then when you take the time to counter them one after another, the whole thread gets off subject. Go thru and read threads that JJ has posted on and you'll see examples if it without fail. It is easier to throw out "red herrings" than have to deal with difficult questions. He's not the only one though.



gracieadeline, You're one to be talking, You can't seem to answer questions that I have asked you. Why are you preaching on one post to be the so called christian you claim to be, only to see you come off as attack dog on another post? hmmmmmm It seems you have been caught with your big foot in your mouth. Sometimes it may take me a while to see a post and can't get to it right away, what is your excuse? Wink
JJ......forgive me.......I just had to knock you in the dirt on the following comment you made.....and I quote....

"There isn’t a CEO in America that is worth 2.5 million dollars compensation a year."

Well Well Well JJ! Rip that size 13 out of your mouth!! WHO IN THE HECK DEVELOPED THE COMPUTER SOFTWARE THAT YOU AND I ARE USING RIGHT NOW? GUESS WHO LAID THE GROUND WORK FOR THIS TYPE TECHNOLOGY?
THAT'S RIGHT!!!!!! BILL GATES!!!

You know how much he is worth right now?
$100,000,000,000. It is estimate he makes $300 per second.

WHY?? Everyone in the world uses MICROSOFT!!

Now......JJ.....put 2 and 2 together...

Lot's of folks use computers.....makes Bill Gates Rich.

Lot's of folks use oil......makes Exxon rich.

How can you be so dumb with these facts?/

quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
You are so so so wrong JJ!
THOSE EVIL OIL COMPANIES? Did you take basic economics in high school or even college?
Let me break it down for you in really plain terms that even a liberal left wing like yourself can understand.

If I have a piece of chewing gum that everyone in the world uses on a daily basis......I am going to make a butt load of money because this is my product and world loved (chews) it. Ok.....JJ......stay with me here........the more people buy of my product.......the more money I make.

Now.......on the flip side......if I have a tamborene that no one likes because it sounds flat AND NO ONE BUYS IT.........gues what.......I don't make as much money as the guy selling the chewing gum.

DON'T BLAME THE OIL EXECS FOR MAKING A PROFIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They have a product that THE WHOLE STINKING WORLD USES!! Would you not concur that they would make enorumous profits? What's wrong with that? They are successfull because they made many sacrifices in their lives to get where they are today.

Just like you liberal left wing nut jobs. THE ENTRAPRNUERS ARE THE BAD GUYS. You think we should spread out our wealth evenly.

Go vote for O'Bama.

quote:
Originally posted by JJPAUL:
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
JJPAUL,
Please give me the definition of FACISM. Please.....no please..........tell me what you think the definition of this word means.

quote:
Originally posted by JJPAUL:
Bill, Your picture of the flag and cross speaks words. Fascism will be Wrapped In The Flag And Carrying A Cross.


When I refer to FASCISM, I am talking about CORPORATE FASCISM.



There isn’t a CEO in America that is worth 2.5 million dollars compensation a year. Yet many are receiving compensation well above this amount. Who can ignore the lucrative retirement package given to the retired chairman of Exxon, Lee Raymond; who can ignore the sizable profits posted by oil companies while consumers hawk their valuables to pay for the gas just to get to and from their jobs? Who can ignore the millions of gallons of oil sitting in barges off the coastline of the United States while oil companies claim a shortage and jack up the prices?

Then, of course, there was the Enron debacle in which Enron employees were caught on tape laughing about how they were bleeding the consumers, and especially old ladies, dry. When Enron went bankrupt, the employees were left without a job, without retirement, with nothing, while Kenneth Lay and his minions are certainly not left wanting for money. And while Lay and his minions may be convicted, they most likely will spend their time behind bars in a cushy federal facility built especially for rich white collar criminals.

The evening news last night, on the national level, showed pieces and parts of hearings on Capitol Hill concerning the bilking of the United States taxpayers by companies contracted by the feds to clean up the mess left behind when Hurricane Katrina blew threw. The estimate of $300,000,000 of wasted taxpayer dollars was probably on the conservative side. When corporations rule government you have CORPORATE FASCISM.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Stuter/stuter89.htm
Fascism was a 1930s progressive movement demonstrably anti-capitalist. I suggest you find a more relevant term.

Yes, Exxon's $41 billion is quite large, but represents a 4.4 percent after taxes profit on sales, hardly a gouging of the consumer.

Millions of gallons of oil sitting off shore in barges. Barges are for transport in shallow waters. Where were these barges filled? Certainly not fron trans-oceanic sources. If one meant super tankers, OK. Super tankers are easily traced by mandatory transponders. Can anyone show aerial maps festooned with such transponders?

I'm sorry, but the idea of hundreds of shallow draft vessels pushed by seagoing tugboats (are there that many?) wallowing across the Atlantic (not the calmest of seas) or across the Caribbean from Venezuela is laughable enough. Then, to sit as hurricane season approaches. Who dreams up these scenarios -- a child or senile old red diaper babies.

JJP,

Do you ever post an original thought? Other than personal attack?
Last edited by Howard Roark
jj-
give me some concrete examples of my not answering questions.
Pointing out your fallacies is not Unchristian. If you think as a Christian, I will be a doormat and be walked all over, You are WRONG! But, JJ, you're doing it again. Just respond to the accusations, (not attacks)for once. typical liberal tactic again, claim you are receiving attacks when what you're getting is simply pointing out your flaws in your lame arguments. Because you can't stand it and can't defend it, you scream that you're being attacked and throw out another red herring. I will go back, if necessary and show the numerous examples of your not responding or answering questions posed to you. Now, I can also go back and show where I have attempted to answer questions or insults thrown my way, even if it took lengthy posts to do so.
Last edited by gracies old man

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