Do you think UAW workers should take a pay cut or not?
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Let me ask you this, do you think they would be better off taking a pay cut or drawing an unemployment check? giving up everything they have worked for and taking a government sponsored pension which will be about what they would draw from Social Security or continue to work and prosper in an attempt to bring their profession out of the mess it is in?
To me, but of course I am looking at it with common sense, it is a no-brainer, either you can compromise and attempt to keep the companies open, or you can whine and cry and eventually lose everything.
To me, but of course I am looking at it with common sense, it is a no-brainer, either you can compromise and attempt to keep the companies open, or you can whine and cry and eventually lose everything.
Yes, and management should too.
I've seen union workers go out on strike, and remain out on strike for months, for a pay raise. They would need years to make up for the money they lost while not working, but they "won".
While it would be laudable, I seriously doubt they will do it.
While it would be laudable, I seriously doubt they will do it.
quote:Originally posted by teyates:
Let me ask you this, do you think they would be better off taking a pay cut or drawing an unemployment check? giving up everything they have worked for and taking a government sponsored pension which will be about what they would draw from Social Security or continue to work and prosper in an attempt to bring their profession out of the mess it is in?
To me, but of course I am looking at it with common sense, it is a no-brainer, either you can compromise and attempt to keep the companies open, or you can whine and cry and eventually lose everything.
So you are say all federal employees should take a pay cut since the federal government has been mismanaged and has had to be bailed out by foreign governments,that is your opinion but i strongly disagree as i am certain do all the mail men and women,TVA employees,soldiers in Iraq but you are right to have that opinion
For twenty years I've asked the question "how do you produce cars at $20 an hour and sell them to the general public that makes $6 an hour. I think is has finally caught up with them!
If I had a choice to have a little LESS pay or NO pay I'd have to go with LESS. I know of someone who had that choice recently.
Lots of people don't have the choice. They've already lost their jobs and more are coming.
Lots of people don't have the choice. They've already lost their jobs and more are coming.
UAW and the U. S. auto makers need to agree to work for four years on the same pay scale as U. S. Honda and Toyota, approximately one-third their current pay. During the time of this arrangement, they should improve their product from the economy/performance stand point that they are competitively on par with Honda, Toyate and others. Once they were on sound footing, UAW could resume thier collective bargaining.
There are many examples in history where a union was necessary to guarantee a fair wage with decent working conditions. Some of the textile working conditions were horrific. But there are also many examples where unions have battled for excess. In the case of the UAW I'm afraid they battled for excess.
I had a General Motors UAW employee brag to me about how he went to work most days and slept in the rooftop HVAC unit when he worked at the Altanta Lakewood facility. He said he overslept once and he made sure they corrected his time card so it didn't show overtime. He was a shop steward. Later that plant closed and now Doraville is closed as well.
While he may not represent the majority I had questions. Where was his manager who should have been worried about a missing employee's safety? Where was this guy's morals? It sure didn't give me a good feeling about General Motors. At the time the guy worked for a non-union plant but continued paying his dues to the UAW in hopes of getting into Doraville, but that chance is gone now.
In my opinion both management and the UAW share responsibility for the problem. But I think the UAW will find taking a pay cut hard to swallow. The problem is not only pay, it is job security as well. If the UAW is not careful they will find their members in the same condition as the employees of Pillowtex when it shut down overnight.
Pillowtex employees not only lost their last paycheck, which is normally illegal; they also instantly lost any insurance payments. In other words the employees who had medical bills due were out of luck. It all happened overnight and represents the largest single day of layoffs in North Carolina history. And Pillowtex was not asking or getting a bail out from the government.
So many of us are blessed to have good jobs that we may not understand those of us who have lost jobs. The market out there can be tough, especially if you had planned on forty years at a single company. Those days are gone. If you think you are entitled to your job then I suggest you wake up from your dream. Reality can be tough if you aren't alert.
Edit: It is ironic that the Lakewood facility was the first facility to be "struck" by the newly formed United Auto Workers Union in 1936. Several plants were struck, but Atlanta was first. The plant was built in 1927 and closed in 1990. The news story at the 1990 closing emphasized the anger of the UAW for GM's decision to close the facility.
I had a General Motors UAW employee brag to me about how he went to work most days and slept in the rooftop HVAC unit when he worked at the Altanta Lakewood facility. He said he overslept once and he made sure they corrected his time card so it didn't show overtime. He was a shop steward. Later that plant closed and now Doraville is closed as well.
While he may not represent the majority I had questions. Where was his manager who should have been worried about a missing employee's safety? Where was this guy's morals? It sure didn't give me a good feeling about General Motors. At the time the guy worked for a non-union plant but continued paying his dues to the UAW in hopes of getting into Doraville, but that chance is gone now.
In my opinion both management and the UAW share responsibility for the problem. But I think the UAW will find taking a pay cut hard to swallow. The problem is not only pay, it is job security as well. If the UAW is not careful they will find their members in the same condition as the employees of Pillowtex when it shut down overnight.
Pillowtex employees not only lost their last paycheck, which is normally illegal; they also instantly lost any insurance payments. In other words the employees who had medical bills due were out of luck. It all happened overnight and represents the largest single day of layoffs in North Carolina history. And Pillowtex was not asking or getting a bail out from the government.
So many of us are blessed to have good jobs that we may not understand those of us who have lost jobs. The market out there can be tough, especially if you had planned on forty years at a single company. Those days are gone. If you think you are entitled to your job then I suggest you wake up from your dream. Reality can be tough if you aren't alert.
Edit: It is ironic that the Lakewood facility was the first facility to be "struck" by the newly formed United Auto Workers Union in 1936. Several plants were struck, but Atlanta was first. The plant was built in 1927 and closed in 1990. The news story at the 1990 closing emphasized the anger of the UAW for GM's decision to close the facility.
I just took a 10% "haircut" at my job. I figure 90% is better than 0%.
We do what we must, and if the UAW is stubborn ( and there's much reason to think they might be) they might have their bluff called.
DF
We do what we must, and if the UAW is stubborn ( and there's much reason to think they might be) they might have their bluff called.
DF
quote:Originally posted by AlabamaSon...
Excellent post AS.
DF, I don't think there is a "bluff" at this table. It seems to me the stakes are high and the players terminally serious. The UAW could wind up with no workers to "protect" or represent if the Big 3 is forced to fold camp.
I'd take the pay cut and know what you are being cut rather than have them go bankrupt and all bets are off on a new contract or even a company at all.
Some big wigs are playing russian roullette with the livelihoods of millions of folks.
Some big wigs are playing russian roullette with the livelihoods of millions of folks.
quote:So you are say all federal employees should take a pay cut since the federal government has been mismanaged and has had to be bailed out by foreign governments,that is your opinion but i strongly disagree as i am certain do all the mail men and women,TVA employees,soldiers in Iraq but you are right to have that opinion
TVA has cut pay in the past and cut benefits. You do what you have to.
Unions don't have the power to shut a plant down anymore when people off the street will take thier job at half or less of what the UAW worker was making.
Beggars can't be choosers.
quote:when people off the street will take thier job at half or less of what the UAW worker was making.
You said it exactly right "off the street",big business always has a tendency to treat TRADES like they are nothing and fill jobs with UNQUALIFIED people,it is not only condescending but extremely ignorant.
It is the exact same as replacing a state certified teacher with a substitute to teach the remainder of the year and it is just idiotic
Yes, but happens all the time. Money speaks.
quote:Originally posted by Zeb:quote:when people off the street will take thier job at half or less of what the UAW worker was making.
You said it exactly right "off the street",big business always has a tendency to treat TRADES like they are nothing and fill jobs with UNQUALIFIED people,it is not only condescending but extremely ignorant.
It is the exact same as replacing a state certified teacher with a substitute to teach the remainder of the year and it is just idiotic
Zeb, you are exactly right. Except today big business is willing to move the jobs overseas. That is why any settlement should somehow involve bringing jobs back home. We have to stop the bleeding now.
I've been an engineer 30 years and I've watched a lot of change in industry. Most of that change has been moving most of the trades type jobs overseas. Most of these jobs are now in China or South America. I watch new companies come in to replace old ones. The new companies pay half of what was there before.
Look at the companies that replaced what we have had in the Shoals. Does any of the new companies pay on the scale of Reynolds, Ford, Occidental, Union Carbide, and other former Shoals employers?
One thing is certain, it is more difficult to come out of high school and expect to find a job to keep for forty years. It doesn't happen. Today our children must attend some sort of secondary education for any type of job security.
I am not sure how it will happen, but I am sure the auto industry will get something. But where does the madness stop? When Pillowtex went bankrupt nobody helped the workers. Are we saying those 5,000 in North Carolina alone were not as important as anybody else? I think that is why people worry about bailing out everybody.
My Dad once said something very interesting. "We should all go to work for the government." He was referring to the pay and benefits the politicians get. But alas, some of us are destined to work to pay their wages.
At the end of the day we are headed to a two class system in the United States. We are seeing the death of the middle class. It is my belief that our efforts to bring up the rest of the world (NAFTA) has done tremendous damage. Remember Ross Perot? He was right.
Nobody wants to see anyone take a pay cut or lose a job. But I am afraid that the last eight years saw us dig ourselves deep into a hole. It doesn't look good.
quote:Originally posted by AlabamaSon:quote:Originally posted by Zeb:quote:when people off the street will take thier job at half or less of what the UAW worker was making.
You said it exactly right "off the street",big business always has a tendency to treat TRADES like they are nothing and fill jobs with UNQUALIFIED people,it is not only condescending but extremely ignorant.
It is the exact same as replacing a state certified teacher with a substitute to teach the remainder of the year and it is just idiotic
Zeb, you are exactly right. Except today big business is willing to move the jobs overseas. That is why any settlement should somehow involve bringing jobs back home. We have to stop the bleeding now.
I've been an engineer 30 years and I've watched a lot of change in industry. Most of that change has been moving most of the trades type jobs overseas. Most of these jobs are now in China or South America. I watch new companies come in to replace old ones. The new companies pay half of what was there before.
Look at the companies that replaced what we have had in the Shoals. Does any of the new companies pay on the scale of Reynolds, Ford, Occidental, Union Carbide, and other former Shoals employers?
One thing is certain, it is more difficult to come out of high school and expect to find a job to keep for forty years. It doesn't happen. Today our children must attend some sort of secondary education for any type of job security.
I am not sure how it will happen, but I am sure the auto industry will get something. But where does the madness stop? When Pillowtex went bankrupt nobody helped the workers. Are we saying those 5,000 in North Carolina alone were not as important as anybody else? I think that is why people worry about bailing out everybody.
My Dad once said something very interesting. "We should all go to work for the government." He was referring to the pay and benefits the politicians get. But alas, some of us are destined to work to pay their wages.
At the end of the day we are headed to a two class system in the United States. We are seeing the death of the middle class. It is my belief that our efforts to bring up the rest of the world (NAFTA) has done tremendous damage. Remember Ross Perot? He was right.
Nobody wants to see anyone take a pay cut or lose a job. But I am afraid that the last eight years saw us dig ourselves deep into a hole. It doesn't look good.
I agree completely,Reagan,Clinton,and both Bush insane trade policies have cause this madness
If countries dont pay fairly and respect the environment we shouldnt deal with them and really is having trade with communistic countries morally right?
So, we should stop trading with about 140 of the nations in the world? That is the consequences of your proposed actions.
I didn't say we could quit,i said is it right....Free trade needs to be reigned in it is out of control
If we stop trading with China, there goes all our cheap merchandise. Walmart would have to close down as well as Dollar stores and hardware stores.
don't forget auto parts stores, sporting goods, K-Marts, Target, Gap, etc.
Why is it that we still have viable, competitive, food manufacturers that still operate in this country, but most everything else had to move to be profitable? Maybe someone should study their business plan. I don't hear them asking for handouts! (yet)
Why is it that we still have viable, competitive, food manufacturers that still operate in this country, but most everything else had to move to be profitable? Maybe someone should study their business plan. I don't hear them asking for handouts! (yet)
Also, oil, chromium for jet engines,! Hope one like traveling by coal fuel trains. Protectionism via Smoot-Hawley, plus a raise in taxes, caused a recession to metastasize into a depression.
quote:Originally posted by LMM:
If we stop trading with China, there goes all our cheap merchandise. Walmart would have to close down as well as Dollar stores and hardware stores.
They would not close down but yes the prices would go up a good bit
Now we can stop and look at what we have written. It can make us understand a little more because all of us have a little truth in what we say.
Food is not asking for handouts. Food is mostly processed and packaged in the United States, primarily because of costs. Today's FDA and Homeland Security requirements require tight tracking which is difficult after processing multiple ingredients. Yet the raw ingredients are increasingly coming from other countries. A lot of our beef and a majority of our fruits and vegetables come from overseas. We are dominate in raising grains. While our farmers may argue with us, raw ingredients can be easier to trade until China starts injecting trash in those.
If the food industry asks for a bailout we are in deep trouble because the last item people give up is food. On the other hand, the food industry is typically the most conservative, not wasting one drop of money. In a recession you will find food and most beverage companies to be stable.
We still have some very conscientious manufacturers who attempt to maintain manufacturing in the United States. But we have some who have greedy executives or greedy employees. In those cases a lot of the manufacturing moves because the owners have control. It is their freedom to move that manufacturing and it is their decision. BUT if they make that decision they should not ask the taxpayer for a bailout. That is why I still maintain that the United States auto industry must have strings attached to any money they get. They can still sell their cars overseas and we are not running Toyota or Honda away.
I don't think we want to close the borders and isolate ourselves. I think we want to encourage (1) common sense and (2) balanced trade. Yes Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target, etc. buy from China. They do because we demand cheaper prices and don't care what they do to get it (out of sight, out of mind). But it seems we also want better pay and a better life while reducing the amount of work we all perform. We need to balance the equation or we will find ourselves with no job, less money, and a house full of poorly manufactured stuff.
In the last 30 years I have actually seen our work ethic drop. We can blame a number of things including morale. We are still the same great people we have always been. And we can work to overcome, but somebody has to be less greedy. People will demand it, such as the public upset when the car executives flew to Washington. Common sense has to kick in and we have to restore our path to the American dream, which included hard work and common sense.
If you are still with me then you understand why I blame both the UAW and the executives. I also blame NAFTA because, while it opened some trade it also closed many doors. Finally, NAFTA is one step towards one world government and, while the world is getting smaller cultures just aren't ready. Other countries don't have the same morals as we do. I'm not ready to give them an open ticket.
Food is not asking for handouts. Food is mostly processed and packaged in the United States, primarily because of costs. Today's FDA and Homeland Security requirements require tight tracking which is difficult after processing multiple ingredients. Yet the raw ingredients are increasingly coming from other countries. A lot of our beef and a majority of our fruits and vegetables come from overseas. We are dominate in raising grains. While our farmers may argue with us, raw ingredients can be easier to trade until China starts injecting trash in those.
If the food industry asks for a bailout we are in deep trouble because the last item people give up is food. On the other hand, the food industry is typically the most conservative, not wasting one drop of money. In a recession you will find food and most beverage companies to be stable.
We still have some very conscientious manufacturers who attempt to maintain manufacturing in the United States. But we have some who have greedy executives or greedy employees. In those cases a lot of the manufacturing moves because the owners have control. It is their freedom to move that manufacturing and it is their decision. BUT if they make that decision they should not ask the taxpayer for a bailout. That is why I still maintain that the United States auto industry must have strings attached to any money they get. They can still sell their cars overseas and we are not running Toyota or Honda away.
I don't think we want to close the borders and isolate ourselves. I think we want to encourage (1) common sense and (2) balanced trade. Yes Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target, etc. buy from China. They do because we demand cheaper prices and don't care what they do to get it (out of sight, out of mind). But it seems we also want better pay and a better life while reducing the amount of work we all perform. We need to balance the equation or we will find ourselves with no job, less money, and a house full of poorly manufactured stuff.
In the last 30 years I have actually seen our work ethic drop. We can blame a number of things including morale. We are still the same great people we have always been. And we can work to overcome, but somebody has to be less greedy. People will demand it, such as the public upset when the car executives flew to Washington. Common sense has to kick in and we have to restore our path to the American dream, which included hard work and common sense.
If you are still with me then you understand why I blame both the UAW and the executives. I also blame NAFTA because, while it opened some trade it also closed many doors. Finally, NAFTA is one step towards one world government and, while the world is getting smaller cultures just aren't ready. Other countries don't have the same morals as we do. I'm not ready to give them an open ticket.
quote:Originally posted by AlabamaSon:
There are many examples in history where a union was necessary to guarantee a fair wage with decent working conditions. Some of the textile working conditions were horrific. But there are also many examples where unions have battled for excess. In the case of the UAW I'm afraid they battled for excess.
I had a General Motors UAW employee brag to me about how he went to work most days and slept in the rooftop HVAC unit when he worked at the Altanta Lakewood facility. He said he overslept once and he made sure they corrected his time card so it didn't show overtime. He was a shop steward. Later that plant closed and now Doraville is closed as well.
While he may not represent the majority I had questions. Where was his manager who should have been worried about a missing employee's safety? Where was this guy's morals? It sure didn't give me a good feeling about General Motors. At the time the guy worked for a non-union plant but continued paying his dues to the UAW in hopes of getting into Doraville, but that chance is gone now.
In my opinion both management and the UAW share responsibility for the problem. But I think the UAW will find taking a pay cut hard to swallow. The problem is not only pay, it is job security as well. If the UAW is not careful they will find their members in the same condition as the employees of Pillowtex when it shut down overnight.
Pillowtex employees not only lost their last paycheck, which is normally illegal; they also instantly lost any insurance payments. In other words the employees who had medical bills due were out of luck. It all happened overnight and represents the largest single day of layoffs in North Carolina history. And Pillowtex was not asking or getting a bail out from the government.
So many of us are blessed to have good jobs that we may not understand those of us who have lost jobs. The market out there can be tough, especially if you had planned on forty years at a single company. Those days are gone. If you think you are entitled to your job then I suggest you wake up from your dream. Reality can be tough if you aren't alert.
Edit: It is ironic that the Lakewood facility was the first facility to be "struck" by the newly formed United Auto Workers Union in 1936. Several plants were struck, but Atlanta was first. The plant was built in 1927 and closed in 1990. The news story at the 1990 closing emphasized the anger of the UAW for GM's decision to close the facility.
I can say in my union job people do not sleep on roof tops. If unions are the death of all companies how does UPS with most of its workforce represented by unions do so well? Say what you want but bad management plays a much bigger role in this than most will admit.
quote:Originally posted by HIFLYER:
I can say in my union job people do not sleep on roof tops. If unions are the death of all companies how does UPS with most of its workforce represented by unions do so well? Say what you want but bad management plays a much bigger role in this than most will admit.
I don't think you get the point. It doesn't matter. Give whoever you wish 100% of the blame. If somebody doesn't give up something then everyone will be out of a job. Of course the CEO and a select few will float out on a golden parachute. If you look closely at what I am saying in several of my posts you will see that:
(1) The company has to bring back jobs to the United States.
(2) The union has to be willing to help make it affordable.
(3) Both have to work on making not just a quality product, but a better product to overcome perception.
I am not "anti-union." In fact, the union has a function. But I do not see how the public citizens can settle giving tax dollars away and get the same results. If so, we will be right back here in a couple of years. By then every company in America will have entered the "soup line."
I know many unions feel like they have given and given, and they have. That is why management must share in the solution. But regardless of how you look at the money, few people make the wages of an auto worker today. And the executives are still living off fat that isn't there. It has to change.
A lot hate unions and desire to weaken them and paint them as evil,i am sure there are tons of reasons for the hard times of the big 3 but people need to realize the problems are NOT labor costs
Most any failing company could survive by paying a much lower wage to employees so by this logic if ever were McDonalds,Burger King or Arbys fail should we suggest drop minimum wage and pay 1 dollar an hour so they survive? OF COURSE NOT
The republicans have always been for holding down BLUE COLLAR wages just look at how they refused to raise minimum wage and the argument was always it is pointless because it will raise prices but prices go up anyway it is inflation so in 50 years the minimum should remain the same? It is just stupid
Most any failing company could survive by paying a much lower wage to employees so by this logic if ever were McDonalds,Burger King or Arbys fail should we suggest drop minimum wage and pay 1 dollar an hour so they survive? OF COURSE NOT
The republicans have always been for holding down BLUE COLLAR wages just look at how they refused to raise minimum wage and the argument was always it is pointless because it will raise prices but prices go up anyway it is inflation so in 50 years the minimum should remain the same? It is just stupid
You are correct Zeb. There are people that paint unions evil. The unions are not solely at fault and they are not evil. In fact many unions have helped many workers through the years. There are companies that require unions to keep fair wages or even a safe working environment. We also do not want to drop the minimum wage. I think it should be increased.
But there are a few unions that have tipped the scale as well. I personally think the UAW has done so. The UAW is not evil. It has done some good things. And it will have to help the auto industry manage its way out of this problem. If management at the auto companies is totally to blame do you think they will be able to figure it out without help from the UAW?
But I am not in the auto industry, I am not in a union, I am not a manager, and I do not understand why my tax dollars need to bail out a failing company. What would prevent McDonalds, Burger King, or Arbys from going before Congress and asking for a bailout? They are not immune from bad management or other problems. Do we bail them out? I am still trying to figure out why we bailed out AIG. Obviously they needed funds for a big party.
Let's look at it another way. The UAW has a contract with a car company to build cars. Basically the UAW is the group of workers in the factory. But what happens if the car company can't pay their contract? The workers will stop working if they don't get pay. It makes sense. But where will they work if the car company closes or they stop work? At that point those workers will start over at a starting salary of probably less than $12 an hour. It might not seem fair, but it is a fact.
Now let's pretend Car Company XYZ was run by a bunch of crooks. They take most of the profits and run (aka Enron). We can prosecute the pants off the executives. We can string them up on a rope. But the workers still suffer.
I have an idea of the solution, but I will get pounded. I think there has to be more oversight. But, if we would rather not do that then we will suffer the results. You or I cannot make the choice alone. It is the will of the public that will reign. We now face the consequences.
But there are a few unions that have tipped the scale as well. I personally think the UAW has done so. The UAW is not evil. It has done some good things. And it will have to help the auto industry manage its way out of this problem. If management at the auto companies is totally to blame do you think they will be able to figure it out without help from the UAW?
But I am not in the auto industry, I am not in a union, I am not a manager, and I do not understand why my tax dollars need to bail out a failing company. What would prevent McDonalds, Burger King, or Arbys from going before Congress and asking for a bailout? They are not immune from bad management or other problems. Do we bail them out? I am still trying to figure out why we bailed out AIG. Obviously they needed funds for a big party.
Let's look at it another way. The UAW has a contract with a car company to build cars. Basically the UAW is the group of workers in the factory. But what happens if the car company can't pay their contract? The workers will stop working if they don't get pay. It makes sense. But where will they work if the car company closes or they stop work? At that point those workers will start over at a starting salary of probably less than $12 an hour. It might not seem fair, but it is a fact.
Now let's pretend Car Company XYZ was run by a bunch of crooks. They take most of the profits and run (aka Enron). We can prosecute the pants off the executives. We can string them up on a rope. But the workers still suffer.
I have an idea of the solution, but I will get pounded. I think there has to be more oversight. But, if we would rather not do that then we will suffer the results. You or I cannot make the choice alone. It is the will of the public that will reign. We now face the consequences.
quote:Originally posted by Howard Roark:
So, we should stop trading with about 140 of the nations in the world? That is the consequences of your proposed actions.
I don't advocate eliminating trade, but the global trade playing field needs to be level. We need reciprocity with our trading "partners" for it to be real trade.