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Hi to my Forum Friends,

While we will never convince our Friends who love to sit on the Far Left that there can be a correlation between a Biblical time scale and a natural time scale; I will still present this article as a stepping stone. As the article implies, those who hold on to Darwinian Evolution as fact -- must have billions of years for it to have occurred as they envision. Darwinian Evolution could not, and, of course, did not happen in thousands of years. So, these Friends will remain Hard Shell Darwinianist. For the rest of us, I present this article from the current issue of "Arts & Facts," the magazine published by The Institute for Creation Research.

To read the magazine online, or to explore more information available from The Institute for Creation Research, visit the web site: http://www.icr.org/

Even though I visit their web site often to read; I prefer to receive this amazing magazine via the mail so that I can peruse and read it when and where I have time. To get a "free" subscription, visit the web site and click on Subscription at the bottom of the page.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
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Understanding Evidence For The Biblical Timescale
By Frank Sherwin, M.A., & Brian Thomas, M.S. *
Acts & Facts, The Institute for Creation Research
http://www.icr.org/article/5298/

Time and history clearly differentiate between the biblical and evolutionary worldviews. Vast time is required for broad-scale evolution, and this has been widely used as a filter to interpret data from all disciplines that have historical implications. Vast time is so fully branded into our thinking that it has gained an unquestioned status, even when solid evidence is presented to the contrary.

As a result, one who doubts deep time faces the tough challenge of remaining unaffected by its prevalence in our culture. Scientifically, this situation is odd, because there are so many natural processes that indicate a young world.(1) Perhaps the most spectacular include soft tissues in fossils, such as the elastic blood vessels from an "80 million year old" hadrosaur described in Science in early 2009. The rate at which soft tissue decays would not allow a hundred thousand years, let alone eighty million years.(2)

The late Harvard paleontologist Stephen Gould was accurate when he said, "The stereotype of a fully rational and objective 'scientific method,' with individual scientists as logical (and interchangeable) robots, is self-serving mythology."(3) Scientists, being human, are worldview-driven, and have various motivations that go beyond science. This helps explain how deeply held notions of deep time predominate despite contradictory evidence.

Further, many recognize that there not only exists no hint of deep time in Scripture, but that evolution's trinity of time, death, and chance undermine Scripture's straightforward young biblical history, as well as the Christianity which rests upon that history. Why would God have sanctioned "millions of years" of death as "very good" in Genesis 1:31? Why would the book of Romans confirm the Genesis history that death came as a result of Adam's sin if in fact there were vast ages of death prior to Adam? Also, why would the Lord Jesus Himself have verified the recent history of Adam in Mark 10:6? In the ongoing war of the worldviews, biblical history and evolution's history cannot both be true.

Clearly, there are solid scientific and theological reasons supporting a young age for our world. But maintaining confidence in a straightforward biblical history can still be difficult and unpopular, because scientific or historical discoveries are constantly blended with the leaven of deep time, and repetition can brainwash.

The chart below could therefore be used as a rough calibration to convert evolutionary teaching to real biblical history(4,5) if the reader can first associate evolutionary teaching with a characteristic earth layer. It is merely intended as a gross approximation, as exceptions will be found in many specific cases. Some argue that since there is no validity at all to evolutionary ages, their entire system ought to be thrown out. However, there are real rock layers to investigate.

It may seem straightforward to translate numbered evolutionary dates into numbered creation dates, but there are too many variables to be able to do this cursorily. Instead, a closer look at each case is required. Nevertheless, this chart may provide a beginning. Interpretations of strata are constantly changing, as well as numeric estimates for both evolutionary dates and biblical dates. The chart below correlates some of the main earth deposits with certain events recorded in the Bible.(6}

References

1. Batten, D. 101 Evidences For A Young Age Of The Earth And Universe. Creation Ministries International. Posted on creation.com June 4, 2009, accessed February 9, 2010.
2. Thomas, B. Hadrosaur Soft Tissues Another Blow to Long-Ages Myth. ICR News. Posted on icr.org May 12, 2009, accessed February 11, 2010.
3. Gould, Stephen Jay. In the Mind of the Beholder. Natural History. 103. February 1994: 14.
4. An Estimate Of The Age Of The Earth Can Be Calculated Using Biblical Data. See Beechick, R. 2001. Chronology for Everybody. Creation Technical Journal. 15 (3): 67-73.
5. An estimate of the date of Noah's Flood that includes both biblical and archaeological data can be found in Livingston, D. A Universal Flood: 3000BC. Associates for Biblical Research. Posted on biblearchaeology.org December 12, 2005, accessed February 11, 2010.
6. For a much closer look at geologic and biblical evidence related to the creation-Flood model, see Snelling, A.A. 2009. Earth's Catastrophic Past. Dallas, TX: Institute for Creation Research.

* Mr. Sherwin is Senior Science Lecturer and Mr. Thomas is Science Writer at the Institute for Creation Research.

Cite this article: Sherwin, F. and B. Thomas. 2010. Understanding Evidence for the Biblical Timescale. Acts & Facts. 39 (4): 16-17.

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Bill, you have just revealed (again) that you are politically motivated. "Far Left"? Actually, there are quite a few on the far right, and all kinds of people in between who also believe in evolution. Your "source" is once again unreliable, taking, for instance, Stephen Jay Gould's quote out of context. Just to let you know, he was an almost militant athiest.

When you stick to encouraging people to accept Jesus into their hearts, you are doing God's work. But as I have told you before, politics is OF THE WORLD, not of God. Every time you post this political claptrap, you are turning away thinking people who MAY have come to know God if you had just kept your warped, biased, misleading, and just plain false ideas to yourself.
I tend to agree.
This is Holy Week.
Can we not try to focus on the Paschal Mysteries: The life, death and Resurrection of our Lord. That's where my heart is this weekend, and I would encourage everyone to lay it all down and forget about politics, lefties and righties, (whatever) , how old the earth is, evolution, labelling other fellow believers, and all the JUNK that gets in the way, and detracts from what we are supposed to be mindful of.
just be thankful for Christ's sacrifice. I mean, good grief- it's Good Friday tomorrow. We just shouldn't be hashing this out right here, rightnow.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
quote:
Every time you post this political claptrap, you are turning away thinking people who MAY have come to know God if you had just kept your warped, biased, misleading, and just plain false ideas to yourself.


Truer words have not been spoken.

I am a believer. I am a Christian. I accept some of the INTERPRETATIONS of the bible to be true. I accept others as allegories, parables and ruminations of the wisest men of the time as just that: parables and allegories inspired by God Himself.

The Bible was written thousands of years before the invention of science. Men made sense of nature as best they could using inspiration of God and divined that information as best as they could understand. I cannot fault them for their mistakes in interpreting His word. After all, how do you explain quantum theory to a caveman? You don't. You tell him, "Let there be light!" knowing the details would come later.

For imbeciles like Bill Gray to constantly insist that every single word is literal truth is such a tremendous assault on reason that I can't believe it still exists in this day and time!

Bill, you DO NOT win points for the Lord or for people who are searching when you support these blatant lies in support of your fundamental, snake-handling cult. Evolution has been proven just as soundly gravitational theory or germ theory.

It is so darn sad that I find myself defending my own religion from within rather than from outside!
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Bill, you have just revealed (again) that you are politically motivated. "Far Left"?

Hi O,

I was not speaking of the Liberal Left Politics -- but, the Liberal Left Theology. No, no political motivations involved -- only that the Liberal Theology proponents can relate to and follow Darwinian Evolution -- for, to them, the Bible is NOT the inspired, inerrant, literal Word of God.

Yet, we on the Conserative Right DO view the Bible as the Written Word of God -- and, since God said it, I believe it!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by Sofa King: It is so darn sad that I find myself defending my own religion from within rather than from outside!

Hi Sofa,

I am happy you bring up the subject of your "religion." Everyone who has read the Religion Forum knows my beliefs and that I do not have a "religion" -- but, instead, I have a personal relationship with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

And, this week, I celebrate the fact that HE IS ALIVE! -- and sitting at the right hand of God the Father. And, would you believe it -- He is actually telling the Father that, in spite of Bill Gray's many failings -- Bill is still covered and eternally insured by His blood, covered with His righteousness? Isn't that fantastic?

Yes, I am a Baptist flavored Christian.

Sofa, we know that you have said that you are an Episcopalian. However, you have never told us if are an Episcopalian -- by birth -- or by confession. Is you faith based upon where mom and dad went to church -- or have YOU, personally, invited Jesus Christ to come into your heart, into your life, and be your PERSONAL Lord and Savior (Revelation 3:20)?

Sofa, sprirtual-wise -- what do you believe, what do you share with those who do not yet believe -- and what do you follow?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill, you're posting falsehoods and trying to spin your way out of it. Why don't you just STOP this foolishness? You never address the points I or anyone else post to refute your falsehoods. Why is that? Could it be because you CAN'T, or is it because you refuse to ever admit you are wrong? I believe it is both.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Bill, you're posting falsehoods and trying to spin your way out of it. Why don't you just STOP this foolishness? You never address the points I or anyone else post to refute your falsehoods. Why is that? Could it be because you CAN'T, or is it because you refuse to ever admit you are wrong? I believe it is both.

Hi O,

A simple solution. You tell me that I am posting things which are not true. Please give us an example.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Sofa, sprirtual-wise -- what do you believe, what do you share with those who do not yet believe -- and what do you follow?


I'd rather take a hot poker in my rectum than to have my spiritual beliefs questioned by you. I am a Christian. That is good enough for me and will obviously never be good enough for you.

The lord has impressed upon my heart that there are many paths leading to Him. Explaining why that is true to you would a complete waste of time.

Now go read your comics about thousand year old earths and leave this religion stuff to us smart folks, willya?
quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Sofa, sprirtual-wise -- what do you believe, what do you share with those who do not yet believe -- and what do you follow?

I'd rather take a hot poker in my rectum than to have my spiritual beliefs questioned by you. I am a Christian. That is good enough for me and will obviously never be good enough for you.

The lord has impressed upon my heart that there are many paths leading to Him. Explaining why that is true to you would a complete waste of time.

Hi Sofa,

So, in the Bible Jesus tells us, "Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; NO ONE comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6).

Yet, you say that God has told you that this is wrong, that Jesus is not the ONLY WAY to come to Him. That is interesting. I wonder why Jesus Christ would tell all of us that He is the ONLY WAY -- and God would tell you something different?

We do read, in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."

Sofa, you tell me, "The lord has impressed upon my heart that there are many paths leading to Him."

Do you think that since this is a small letter "lord" -- that maybe it was not the Lord, Jesus Christ, speaking to you -- but, maybe some other entity, some "lord" -- of who knows what -- putting these thoughts into your head?

But, Sofa, if you CANNOT tell us what you believe and why; not a problem. Just say, "I don't know!" It's as simple as that.

I recall that I used to have a rather Crusty nemesis on the Religion Forum. I wonder what ever happened to him? Your writings and ravings somewhat remind me of my old Friend.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Do you think that since this is a small letter "lord" -- that maybe it was not the Lord, Jesus Christ, speaking to you -- but, maybe some other entity, some "lord" -- of who knows what -- putting these thoughts into your head?


Your rudeness is beyond reproach, Mr. Gray.
quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
A simple solution. You tell me that I am posting things which are not true. Please give us an example.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

6000 year old earths. Evolution. What in the heck do you think he was talking about? You started this thread of stupidity.

Hi Sofa,

That comment and question was to O No because she wrote that I have been writing false statements. I am still waiting to hear from her on this.

Yet, it strikes me funny that, although I have asked YOU several questions -- you cannot answer them.

But, when I ask a question of another person -- you are quick to jump in and answer for that person.

Now, isn't that a wee bit odd -- that you can always answer for other people -- but, you CANNOT answer for yourself? I wonder why?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Do you think that since this is a small letter "lord" -- that maybe it was not the Lord, Jesus Christ, speaking to you -- but, maybe some other entity, some "lord" -- of who knows what -- putting these thoughts into your head?

Your rudeness is beyond reproach, Mr. Gray.

Hi VP,

Would you care to explain? Or, do you just enjoy tossing out such comments with no reason behind what you say?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:


The Bible was written thousands of years before the invention of science.


How did they learn to write? What did they write the bible with? How did they realize what they were writing with would stay on the material they wrote on long enough for someone to read it. Who developed language that allowed them to write something that would be understood by other people.

I'm quite sure the answers to all the above were experimented with and tested many times before implementation. This in itself is science my friend. The ability to just ask "Why, How, What, When, or Where?" is a fundamental start of all science.
quote:
Originally posted by Loki:
quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:
The Bible was written thousands of years before the invention of science.

How did they learn to write? What did they write the bible with? How did they realize what they were writing with would stay on the material they wrote on long enough for someone to read it. Who developed language that allowed them to write something that would be understood by other people.

I'm quite sure the answers to all the above were experimented with and tested many times before implementation. This in itself is science my friend. The ability to just ask "Why, How, What, When, or Where?" is a fundamental start of all science.

Hi Loki,

That is true. And, we all know that before the Creation -- there was no science -- since nothing existed before the Creation except God Himself.

Therefore, science and all the laws governing the different fields of science -- are merely a subset of the Creation.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill, on THIS thread, I have already pointed out that your "source" took a quote from Stephen Jay Gould out of context, and that he actually was an athiest who fought against the idea of creationism. Your "source" also got it wrong about the so-called soft tissue. That soft tissue they discovered was petrified. The acid in the soil turned it to iron carbonate. What they were talking about when they found soft tissue is simply that they found PETRIFIED FLESH, rather than just the BONES that are usually found in fossils. It wasn't "soft", it was ROCK.

In the thread about the Girl Scouts your "source" said that Planned Parenthood was trying to teach ten year old Gilr Scouts how to be "hot". When I and several others pointed out that that was FAR from the truth, you just decided to ignore us. You have the internet at your disposal. Why in the world do you not research things before you post them so you can post true things instead of the unbelievable whacked out ideas you get from such "sources"?

Now, WILL you retract the Girl Scout foolishness? WILL you retract this lastest gibberish? I'll be waiting.
Oh yeah, one of the other things you stated was that no Baptist Church did the Stations of the Cross. I told you that as a child going to a Baptist Church, we did the Stations of the Cross on Easter. That is the truth, and unless you have been to every Baptist Church in the nation, you have no way of knowing that "No Baptist Church does the Stations of the Cross". I think you owe us all an appology on that one too.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Bill, on THIS thread, I have already pointed out that your "source" took a quote from Stephen Jay Gould out of context, and that he actually was an athiest who fought against the idea of creationism. Your "source" also got it wrong about the so-called soft tissue. That soft tissue they discovered was petrified. The acid in the soil turned it to iron carbonate. What they were talking about when they found soft tissue is simply that they found PETRIFIED FLESH, rather than just the BONES that are usually found in fossils. It wasn't "soft", it was ROCK.

Hi O,

Can you give us the source of this information? Maybe a URL link, etc.

Appreciate it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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It is so darn sad that I find myself defending my own religion from within rather than from outside!

Sofa, all I can say to this is AMEN!



Do you think that since this is a small letter "lord" -- that maybe it was not the Lord, Jesus Christ, speaking to you -- but, maybe some other entity, some "lord" -- of who knows what -- putting these thoughts into your head?

Your rudeness is beyond reproach, Mr. Gray.

Hi VP,

Would you care to explain? Or, do you just enjoy tossing out such comments with no reason behind what you say?

Yeah, I'll explain- he made a typo. a TYPO. little l. and you insinuate that he means another lord or god. It's incredibly rude, and any decent person knows it. Would it be prudent for me to start calling you on typos and grammatical errors in your postings? I don't think so...it is clearly an attempt to ridicule and belittle a fellow Christian- and THAT is a darn shame.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Oh yeah, one of the other things you stated was that no Baptist Church did the Stations of the Cross. I told you that as a child going to a Baptist Church, we did the Stations of the Cross on Easter. That is the truth, and unless you have been to every Baptist Church in the nation, you have no way of knowing that "No Baptist Church does the Stations of the Cross." I think you owe us all an apology on that one too.

Hi O,

What you probably experienced as a child is what is called a Tenebrae Service, which has some similarities to the Stations of the Cross.

TENEBRAE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenebrae

Tenebrae (Latin for 'shadows' or 'darkness') is a Christian religious service celebrated by the Western Church on the evening before or early morning of Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday, which are the last three days of Holy Week. The distinctive ceremony of Tenebrae is the gradual extinguishing of candles while a series of readings and psalms are chanted or recited. In the Roman Rite of the Roman Catholic Church the Tenebrae readings and psalms are those of Matins and Lauds. The Polish National Catholic Church and some churches within the Anglican Communion also observe Tenebrae. The name may also be used for various Holy Week services among Protestant churches.


This is quite a coincidence. You bring this up -- and today, I received my online issue of The Berean Call Newsletter and a person asks a similar question. So, I will let Dave Hunt give you an answer. Below is a question which was sent to The Berean Call and answered in this monthly issue of The Berean Call:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

QUESTIONS & ANSWERS:
Dave Hunt, The Berean Call
http://www.thebereancall.org/node/8463

QUESTION: Our church has recently introduced an Easter service called Tenebrae. It began as a solemn service that included worship songs and scripture that led into a contemplation of the sufferings of Christ during his crucifixion. This year they are having "stations that show the 'Way of the Cross'" (quoted from service outline).

A table as you walk in represents the Passover Supper; at the doors, the essence of wintergreen will be offered to mask the smell of death; the four stations:

Humility -- foot washing (reenactment of disciples feet being washed by Jesus);

Fellowship with the Father -- prayer station;

Apathy -- Pilate washing his hands/allow people to do the same;

Suffering -- table with crown of thorns and bloody shroud, bowl of nails for everyone to pickup.

There will be a recreated tomb [with] soldiers rolling a stone over [the entrance].

There will be 30-40 minutes given for everyone to go through the stations and then the service begins.

As an ex-Catholic, I would really like your input on this. We are told to remember the Lord in communion; is there any value in this kind of service? This is confusing!

RESPONSE: What your church is doing, while sincere, is rife with potential problems, in our opinion. Although your fellowship is putting together all kinds of things that it hopes will increase a person's interest (some may even believe that these will increase one's spirituality and knowledge) in the Lord and in what He has done for them, the program may have the opposite effect.

Here are a few things to consider.

The New Testament gives no such examples of remembrance productions or ceremonies for the edification of believers. Although baptism and communion have become "efficacious" rituals and ceremonies in much of the church today, that's not what we find in the Scriptures. Baptism and communion are simply personal ordinances to be followed. Baptism is a public declaration of one's commitment to Christ. Communion is an act of remembering Christ's sacrifice for humanity.

Most of what you described from the service outline has been taken originally from Catholic and Orthodox traditions and rituals. Since they were created to support their works-oriented way of salvation, they have little if any value in leading a person to the biblical Gospel or biblical truth.

Nearly all church productions are of poor quality, even embarrassing. Yet even if they were magnificent, they would still be greatly inferior to the preaching and teaching of the Word. Jesus said, "Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." It is God's Word that sets a person free, not man's ceremonies and productions.

The Scriptures give us the most direct way of knowing and believing what Christ has accomplished for humanity on the Cross. They are God's words given to the writers of the Old and New Testaments. As a person reads or hears God's words, the Holy Spirit brings conviction and enables one to understand the words of God.

The subjective nature of presentations such as you describe cannot teach objective truth -- only the Word can do this. People respond to the imagery presented in the productions experientially. It would be like you and me describing a painting that we had both seen. Our evaluations would be different because they would be based upon our impressions, feelings, and other subjective criteria. If, however, we saw a sign next to the painting that said, "For sale," we would both know exactly what the sign was communicating because of the objective meaning of words.

When Moses went up to Mount Sinai, he was given objective instructions in words that he was told to write down. On the other hand, the Israelites, with Aaron's help, were involved in a production. They opted for the subjective way of paganism and idolatry. Sadly, at the very least, the church is unwittingly moving in that direction.

Another problem with so-called sacred ceremonies is that most people "feel" they are being spiritually edified or that they have had a legitimate spiritual experience; thus, they have pleased (or have drawn closer to) God in some way. No. These are experiential acts of the flesh, which the Word says, "profits nothing" ("It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" - John 6:63).

Anything that attempts to supplement the Word through productions, ceremonies, processions, rituals, etc., in order to encourage people to believe in what it says, is at best adding a secondhand, fleshly representation of what the Bible teaches.

At worst, such productions mislead people into thinking that the activity itself has some efficacious spiritual value, thus preventing them from worshiping the Lord "in spirit and in truth," which believers are commanded to do (John 4:23).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

O No, while to a child this may appear to be the Stations of the Cross, and in reality, it does somewhat emulate this practice -- you will not find the doctrine of the Stations of the Cross in Conservative Christian churches.

I pray this helps.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Yeah, I'll explain - he made a typo. a TYPO. little l. and you insinuate that he means another lord or god. It's incredibly rude, and any decent person knows it. Would it be prudent for me to start calling you on typos and grammatical errors in your postings? I don't think so...it is clearly an attempt to ridicule and belittle a fellow Christian - and THAT is a darn shame.

Hi VP,

Quite honestly, I will truly appreciate it if you will point out typos, spelling, and grammar errors I make -- for the fewer of these I have in my writings -- the better I can transparently communicate ideas. And, the only purpose for writing is to communicate ideas.

About ten years ago, when my Friends Ministry eNewsletter was relatively new; a lady began to communicate with me. At first, we were only butting heads. But, over time we became very close Friends. Marna was a retired school teacher in Missouri -- and lived up to the Show Me motto of Missouri. But, she was very helpful in pointing out when I made a typo, spelling, or grammatical error. In other words, she helped make my writings more effective -- which I sincerely appreciated.

Marna had been a Southern Baptist and her husband was still a deacon in the Southern Baptist church. But, through her son and daughter-in-law, she had been introduced to the Pentecostal church and switched. She used to tease me and tell me I was a Baptist Fundamentalist like her husband. At first, I was silently insulted -- what did she mean that I am a Fundamentalist?

You see, for a long time, I had bought into the Liberal spin that being a Fundamentalist was something bad. However, when I got a set of the books "The Fundamentals," from which the name derives -- I found, much to my pleasure -- that I truly am a Fundamentalist. And, I found that this is a badge of honor. You really should get the set of the books "The Fundamentals." It is published by Biola University and is very worthwhile reading.

So, please, VP -- be a Friend. If you find a typo, spelling error, or grammar error -- please do bring it to my attention. For my goal is to be the most effective writer and communicator possible.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day.

Bill

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quote:
A table as you walk in represents the Passover Supper; at the doors, the essence of wintergreen will be offered to mask the smell of death; the four stations:

Humility -- foot washing (reenactment of disciples feet being washed by Jesus);

Fellowship with the Father -- prayer station;

Apathy -- Pilate washing his hands/allow people to do the same;

Suffering -- table with crown of thorns and bloody shroud, bowl of nails for everyone to pickup.

There will be a recreated tomb [with] soldiers rolling a stone over [the entrance].

There will be 30-40 minutes given for everyone to go through the stations and then the service begins.


This is in no way, shape or form the Stations of the Cross, nor any likeness to it.
Please refrain from posting about prayers/services that you clearly know nothing about. If you would like to know what stations of the cross IS, here it is
The most important reason for reviving the practice of making the Stations of the Cross is that it is a powerful way to contemplate, and enter into, the mystery of Jesus' gift of himself to us. It takes the reflection on the passion out of my head, and makes it an imaginative exercise. It involves my senses, my experience and my emotions. To the extent I come to experience the love of Jesus for me, to that extent the gratitude I feel will be deep. Deep gratitude leads to real generosity and a desire to love as I have been loved. First, just a note about the history of the stations:
The History:

From the earliest of days, followers of Jesus told the story of his passion, death and resurrection. When pilgrims came to see Jerusalem, they were anxious to see the sites where Jesus was. These sites become important holy connections with Jesus. Eventually, following in the footsteps of the Lord, along the way of the cross, became a part of the pilgrimage visit. The stations, as we know them today, came about when it was no longer easy or even possible to visit the holy sites. In the 1500's, villages all over Europe started creating "replicas" of the way of the cross, with small shrines commemorating the places along the route in Jerusalem. Eventually, these shrines became the set of 14 stations we now know and were placed in almost every Catholic Church in the world.

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The 12th Station of the Cross - Jesus dies on the Cross. This particular station is found in St. Raphael's Cathedral, Dubuque, Iowa.Stations of the Cross (or Way of the Cross; in Latin, Via Crucis; also called the Via Dolorosa or Way of Sorrows, or simply, The Way) refers to the depiction of the final hours (or Passion) of Jesus, and the devotion commemorating the Passion. The tradition as chapel devotion began with St. Francis of Assisi and extended throughout the Roman Catholic Church in the medieval period. It is less often observed in the Anglican and Lutheran churches. It may be done at any time, but is most commonly done during the Season of Lent, especially on Good Friday and on Friday evenings during Lent.

In order to provide a version of this devotion more closely aligned with the biblical accounts, Pope John Paul II introduced a new form of devotion, called the Scriptural Way of the Cross on Good Friday 1991. He celebrated that form many times but not exclusively at the Colosseum in Rome.[7][8] In 2007, Pope Benedict XVI approved this set of stations for meditation and public celebration: They follow this sequence:

1.Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane,
2.Jesus is betrayed by Judas and arrested,
3.Jesus is condemned by the Sanhedrin,
4.Jesus is denied by Peter,
5.Jesus is judged by Pilate,
6.Jesus is scourged and crowned with thorns,
7.Jesus takes up His cross,
8.Jesus is helped by Simon to carry His cross,
9.Jesus meets the women of Jerusalem,
10.Jesus is crucified,
11.Jesus promises His kingdom to the repentant thief,
12.Jesus entrusts Mary and John to each other,
13.Jesus dies on the cross,
14.Jesus is laid in the tomb

If O says he/she said they did stations of the cross in a Baptist church, why do you say she/he is mistaken??? That's mighty presumptuous, I belive.
Hi VP,

I am quite familiar with the Stations of the Cross. I was merely suggesting that this is what O No, as a child, mistook for the Stations of the Cross.

As you will notice in the Q & A of the Berean Call newsletter, this ex-Roman Catholic also was confused between the two.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
So, in the Bible Jesus tells us, "Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; NO ONE comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6). Yet, you say that God has told you that this is wrong,


I know it is hard but try not to be a moron. Yes, this passage speaks to my heart and I know it to be true. What you will never understand is that there are many paths to Him. Works, deeds, and thoughts. A spiritual journey to Him involves an earnest, humble, LOVING approach. Your spit and venom and intolerance of anything resembling reason is NOT one of those paths, Bill Gray. Remember the passage "Love thine enemy"?

You cannot win souls for the Lord by preaching intolerance and stupidity.

quote:
Yet, you say that God has told you that this is wrong, that Jesus is not the ONLY WAY to come to Him. That is interesting.


More hate. My God you bring out anger that I have not experience since my youth. I honestly do not know how you can sleep at night after attacking so many of your Christian brothers and sisters all day.

THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID! You are applying your limited power to reason while wearing stupid-colored glasses. I have no need to expose my own personal beliefs to the likes of you. You have no ability to understand is. To do so requires something called "spiritual discernment." A non-literal interpretation of biblical truths.
I have never in my life heard of such a thing as what is alleged to be tenebrae. Now I have been to tenebrae services and there is no evergreens, no hand washing or the other things. It is a service in the dark.

People walk around each station or if there is too many people, turn their heads to each station during Stations of the Cross, just like the people turn to the deacon when he reads the Gospel in the midst of the church.
quote:
I'm quite sure the answers to all the above were experimented with and tested many times before implementation. This in itself is science my friend. The ability to just ask "Why, How, What, When, or Where?" is a fundamental start of all science.


As I stated, it was the most advanced science of the time. But it was thousands of years before the invention of the modern "scientific method" (look that up sometime).

The writers of the bible were likely the most brilliant people of the time but they did not possess the knowledge that we have because it was not invented yet. I'm sure they had the ABILITY to understand something like germ theory or evolution but only after years of education. God had to pass along some incredibly complicated concepts to people who, essentially, had just invented fire.

As a scientifically-literate Christian, I can crystal clearly see how these wise but uneducated people write the interpretations they did. It strikes me not how much they got wrong, but how much they got right. I can only conclude that this wisdom came from the Lord Himself but was polluted by the interpretations of His children.
Bill, Aude was kind enough to post a link on the dinosaurs. Did you bother to read it? And Just because I said the church I grew up in did the Stations of the Cross, does not mean I was such a small child that I didn't understand it. I attended that church well into my 20's. It was the STATIONS OF THE CROSS! Are you calling me a liar?

And I am STILL waiting for you to acknowledge that you were wrong about the Planned Parenthood/Girl Scout thing. WHY will you not EVER admit you were wrong? We are all human, and therefore fallible - EVEN YOU, BILL.

The only important thing any of us need to do is excercise the free will God gave us, using that free will to accept Jesus. THEN we need to put aside all wordly things and follow Him. GIVING UP that free will to the Lord after we have used it to choose His path will bring us all into better understanding of the roll He has for us in His plan.

I wish all of you a very thoughtful Good Friday, and a very joyous Easter. Thank Him with all your hearts, love Him, and follow Him. May He bless you all.
quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
So, in the Bible Jesus tells us, "Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; NO ONE comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6). Yet, you say that God has told you that this is wrong,

I know it is hard, but try not to be a moron. Yes, this passage speaks to my heart and I know it to be true. What you will never understand is that there are many paths to Him. Works, deeds, and thoughts. A spiritual journey to Him involves an earnest, humble, LOVING approach. Your spit and venom and intolerance of anything resembling reason is NOT one of those paths, Bill Gray. Remember the passage "Love thine enemy"? You cannot win souls for the Lord by preaching intolerance and stupidity.

Hi Sofa,

You neglected to include the second Scripture passage -- Ephesians 2:8-9.

So, if we take John 14:6, "Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

And, we add Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- NOT as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Then, add Revelation 3:20, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if ANYONE hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me."

So, putting these Scripture passages together -- we find that Jesus Christ is standing at the door of every person's heart, waiting to be invited to come in and live within that person. But, Jesus Christ cannot come in unless YOU open the door -- He cannot.

But, by the grace of God -- if YOU have enough faith to open that door and invite Him in -- you will be saved; you will have eternal life in Jesus Christ. Does this occur because of your good works, the many good deeds you have done? NO! It is the "free gift" of God to all who will believe and receive (John 1:12), to all who will open the door and invite Him in. It is NOT the result of ANY good works.

And, Jesus Christ tells us that He is THE WAY and that it is only through Him, in faith, NOT a result of your works -- that you can come to God the Father THROUGH HIM.

Sofa, how do you fit WORKS into this process of salvation? Where in this do you find many paths to salvation in Jesus Christ?

Now, AFTER you are saved -- we should most certainly see the fruit of your salvation -- and this is where your works, your good deeds, come into play. They are the result of your salvation -- NOT the cause of your salvation.

But, if you want to continue to try to work your way into heaven -- be my guest.

Isaiah 64:6, "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away."

Sofa, do you think such deeds, such good works, are going to get you a ticket to heaven?

When you teach this doctrine of works to people; you are hindering their path to true salvation. Do you really want this on your conscience?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
And, Jesus Christ tells us that He is THE WAY and that it is only through Him, in faith, NOT a result of your works -- that you can come to God the Father THROUGH HIM.


No @#$t? Wow. I did not know that, Bill. Thank you for enlightening me. I was standing on the precipice of Hell until you informed me of that. I guess that is one of the hidden passages that no one ever hears about.

Bill, my snake handling brother from another mother, if one does good works with his eye on the Lord Jesus, his ultimate destination is pretty clear. It is faith AND good deeds that get your ticket to heaven punched. You have the faith, perhaps, but the good deeds aren't there. If you weren't so clouded by your pride and ignorance, you would see that we are describing the same side of the coin.

I try my very best to pair my faith and belief in Jesus sacrifice with good works and a loving, accepting grace and gentleness with those who might disagree with me.

You on the other hand are so very quick to inform nearly everyone on this forum - believer and not - that they are going to hell and YOU ALONE have the answer to how to avoid that.

You just threatened me, a fellow believer and worshiper of Christ, that my immortal soul is in danger of burning in hell. What the F gives you the audacity do do that? I believe Satan himself has hooked is claws into your mind. No Christian I have ever met would ever say the hateful things you spout here every day.
oh, man....
SK I am so sorry that you are "on the rack". But don't worry, he'll grow tired of you, as he did with me. I am, however, 4 inches taller now. so it's not all bad. Smiler
This debate is as old as the "born again"/salvation theology has been alive. As I have said before, we're not going to solve it here.
YOU are not hindering anyone in finding their way to Jesus.This much is abundantly clear.
Bill does not even acknowledge scripture that lends itself to the fact that we CAN fall from Christ's friendship. I've posted it several times. He ignores it because it doesnt fit into his arguments. Let's pretend that "works" and lending a hand to a lesser brother are not necessary- what have we lost? nothing. We have more friends than Bill, and are overall much nicer people. But Bill, if you are wrong, you better start praying for mercy! No bitterness/ugliness intended. Just look at it from a logical perspective- better safe than sorry,right?? Wink
Now. It's good Friday- pray for those who cannot find the words to pray, don't know how to pray, or don't know the sacrifice that Jesus made for each and every one of us. He calls each of us by name.
Hi Sofa,

In my post, I wrote, "And, Jesus Christ tells us that He is THE WAY and that it is only through Him, in faith, NOT a result of your works -- that you can come to God the Father THROUGH HIM."

And, you respond, "No @#$t? Wow. I did not know that, Bill. Thank you for enlightening me. I was standing on the precipice of Hell until you informed me of that. I guess that is one of the hidden passages that no one ever hears about."

My Friend, I am sincerely happy that I could help you.

Then, you add, "Bill, my snake handling brother from another mother, if one does good works with his eye on the Lord Jesus, his ultimate destination is pretty clear. It is faith AND good deeds that get your ticket to heaven punched."

Where, in the Bible, do you find that -- that salvation is based upon faith AND good deeds?

Finally, you rant, "You just threatened me, a fellow believer and worshiper of Christ, that my immortal soul is in danger of burning in hell. What the F gives you the audacity do do that? I believe Satan himself has hooked is claws into your mind. No Christian I have ever met would ever say the hateful things you spout here every day."

As I recall, I wrote, "But, if you want to continue to try to work your way into heaven -- be my guest."

Please tell me how that is a threat. And, if, in the middle of your ranting, you can find it -- please show me where I said YOU are going to hell. Perhaps, just maybe, could it be that you have a guilty conscience and THINK this is what I wrote; but, please do try to find it and show it to us.

Sofa, my Friend, it is always so refreshing chatting with you. I do so love intelligent dialogues.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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