Understanding Evidence For The Biblical Timescale

I think Levite in the parable of the
Good Samaritan is closer, myself, for B.G. than scribe. Pharisee, no, while they did love to get noticed, they were obsessed with following the Law. B.G. makes the law up as he goes along. But scribe is good as he gives his fingers more exercise than anyone but the Ayn Rand and Alex Jones fetishists on the political forums.
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Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
I think Levite in the parable of the
Good Samaritan is closer, myself, for B.G. than scribe. Pharisee, no, while they did love to get noticed, they were obsessed with following the Law. B.G. makes the law up as he goes along. But scribe is good as he gives his fingers more exercise than anyone but the Ayn Rand and Alex Jones fetishists on the political forums.

IT IS SO EXHILARATING TO BE APPRECIATED!

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Where, in the Bible, do you find that -- that salvation is based upon faith AND good deeds?


Matt 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matt. 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”
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Originally posted by vplee123:
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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Where, in the Bible, do you find that -- that salvation is based upon faith AND good deeds?

Matt 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matt. 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 11:22 “See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

Hi VP,

Good try -- but, no cigar!

What Jesus is describing in Matthew 25:41 is the FRUIT of your salvation. If one is saved, is a Christ Follower -- THEN you will do these good deeds. If one is not saved, he may or may not do the good deeds -- but, it gains him nothing either way -- for he does not yet have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

In Matthew 7:21, Jesus is talking about the false teachers -- those Prosperity Preachers who will tell you to keep sending them money and then you will prosper. This is strictly a reference to false teachers.

Romans 11:22, God loved us so much that even though Adam fell into disobedience, sin, and brought the sin curse upon all of us -- He still sent His Son to be our atonement, our propriatation. That is love. However, no matter how much God loves us -- if we do not remain in that love, if we do not, by grace through faith in Jesus Christ -- believe and receive His "free gift" of salvation -- we will be cut off. This is another way of saying that Jesus Christ is the only Way to salvation.

Still, FIRST comes salvation -- by grace, through faith -- THEN comes works.

Remember, our works, our righteousness, no matter how hard we try -- are still like filthy rags when compared to the righteousness of God. You CANNOT work enough to enter heaven on your own merits. WORKS before salvation only gets you a sore back. WORKS after salvation gains you rewards in heaven. I will take the latter any day.

Isaiah 64:6, "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Good try -- but, no cigar!


With all due respect, I'll take my lessons from the Lord. He feeds me and teaches me. Comforts and affirms me.
He is the only one whose opinion I take to heart. He gave us all the same Word. What we choose to do with it, is up to each person individually. God knows my heart. He knows yours, also. He calls each of us by name.
Mr. Gray, it is simply just not up to you to decide what is right, or "correct" interpretation. Anyway, I'll prefer to err on the side of caution. I sleep better at night knowing that I have done what I can to help my fellow brothers, especially those who are in need. The fruits of salvation are indeed works: this brings us closer to Jesus, and you know He smiles on us when we do good in His Name.
When Jesus tells us we need to "do" something, to avoid falling from his Graces, I take it literally. I take my guidance from the Lord. I pray that I can stop hurting Him with my sinfulness. Or at least, a little less often. This is my prayer.
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Originally posted by vplee123:
With all due respect, I'll take my lessons from the Lord. He feeds me and teaches me. Comforts and affirms me. He is the only one whose opinion I take to heart. He gave us all the same Word. What we choose to do with it, is up to each person individually. God knows my heart. He knows yours, also. He calls each of us by name.

Mr. Gray, it is simply just not up to you to decide what is right, or "correct" interpretation. Anyway, I'll prefer to err on the side of caution. I sleep better at night knowing that I have done what I can to help my fellow brothers, especially those who are in need. The fruits of salvation are indeed works: this brings us closer to Jesus, and you know He smiles on us when we do good in His Name.

When Jesus tells us we need to "do" something, to avoid falling from his Graces, I take it literally. I take my guidance from the Lord. I pray that I can stop hurting Him with my sinfulness. Or at least, a little less often. This is my prayer.

Hi VP,

I agree with all you wrote. Amen! Amen! Amen!

The only clarification I will make is that, yes we may fall from grace at times -- but, we do not lose our salvation. The gift of salvation to all who will believe and receive it -- is His promise. And, our Lord NEVER breaks a promise.

As we are told in 1 Corinthians 3, our work in this life, the fruit of our salvation, will be examined when we stand before our Lord in judgment. If our works are built on worldly standards -- they will burn up -- but, if by grace through faith, we have believed and received His gift of salvation -- we will be saved; but, a wee bit scorched from the fire of testing.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15, "According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

God bless, VP, have a wonderful, blessed Easter,

Bill

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The only clarification I will make is that, yes we may fall from grace at times -- but, we do not lose our salvation. The gift of salvation to all who will believe and receive it -- is His promise. And, our Lord NEVER breaks a promise


No question the Lord holds His end of the bargain. But we enter into the Covenant,and God Forbid, we can also break the Covenant....
We enter into a Covenant with Him, and profess to hold our end up. But if we fail, God help us!
Maybe that's what purgatory is for. A bit of cleansing and contrition before we may enter the Kingdom.Smiler

Happy Easter!
Hi VP,

In an earlier post, I wrote, "The only clarification I will make is that, yes we may fall from grace at times -- but, we do not lose our salvation. The gift of salvation to all who will believe and receive it -- is His promise. And, our Lord NEVER breaks a promise."

And, you respond, "No question the Lord holds His end of the bargain. But we enter into the Covenant, and God Forbid, we can also break the Covenant.... We enter into a Covenant with Him, and profess to hold our end up. But if we fail, God help us! Maybe that's what purgatory is for. A bit of cleansing and contrition before we may enter the Kingdom. Happy Easter!"

VP, my dialogues with you remind me of an incident which happened some years ago. For ten years, my wife, Dory, and I have been praying that God will make it possible for us to relocate to North San Diego County and start a Bible Study/Music Ministry. That is still our prayer and our dream. A few years ago, we were in that area looking at property and, as we were leaving we stopped by a Ross Department Store. As I went to the restroom, my wife was talking with an older Filipina who worked there. As we were driving away, I asked, "Did you tell her that we are going to be starting a Bible Study/Music Ministry in this area?" And, Dory told me, "Her son is a Roman Catholic priest."

I told Dory, "That is not a problem. In our ministry we can invite everyone -- non-believers, Protestants, Catholics, etc. It really will not matter; for anytime there is a question -- the only response should be: 'What does the Bible say about this?'"

And, in my writings, that is still the only valid response: "What does the Bible say about this?"

Yes, unfortunately, every day we sin -- but, we have not broken the Covenant; for the Covenant is from God and we do not have the power to break His Covenant. We will go through the testing of our words, deeds, and actions in this life. Our works, which are the fruit of our salvation, will be tested -- but, as we are told in 1 Corinthians 3:15, and, I am paraphrasing, "Our works may burn up; we may suffer loss (of rewards); but, we SHALL be saved -- maybe scorched, but saved."

Purgatory is not Biblical. We are told in the Bible that, to be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord.

In 2 Corinthians 5:6-8, the apostle Paul tells the believers of Corinth, and us, "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord — for we walk by faith, not by sight — we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

And, in Philippians 1:21-23, Paul tells us, "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better."

You tell me, "Maybe that's what purgatory is for. A bit of cleansing and contrition before we may enter the Kingdom."

No, my Friend, that "cleansing" is done as described in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 -- and does not hinder our immediate entry into heaven, into the presence of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

VP, I, too, sincerely wish you a glorious Easter.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Purgatory is not Biblical.


Why am I not surprised that this is your response? *sigh*.
I beg to differ, but today, will continue to focus my energy on celebrating the Risen Lord.Too good a day to waste in disagreement!
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Where, in the Bible, do you find that -- that salvation is based upon faith AND good deeds?


Matthew 7:21 though 27 is a good start, Bill. Essentially, it says that faith wit out deeds are a house built upon sand that can wither and blow away in a storm. Faith WITH good deeds is a house built upon rock. You, sir, with your hatred of anyone who does not believe exactly as you do, are walking in quick sand. This passage and other clearly show that salvation is a WORK in progress. Jesus Himself said that those who do not do good deeds will not be known to Him.

True, Bill, Jesus never says that compassionate deeds "earn" salvation, or that any of us could ever "merit" the very gift of our existence. He merely sets that as the standard for compliance. Just as a child may offer its parents or grandparents an awkwardly-drawn piece of art, which likely holds little real artistic merit (perhaps in terms of art critics it might be as "filthy rags"), still the parents sincerely and genuinely cherish such efforts. It may not "merit" winning an art contest and may be able to "earn" very little, but loving parents find it good enough to represent the qualities THEY deem of real and lasting value.

The point is that Paul sets the standard for salvation as faith or belief in accepting Jesus while Jesus explicitly rejects this standard and sets the standard at universal compassionate love expressed in actions.

For example, when asked by a lawyer what the most important commandment in the LAW was, Jesus answered (Matt 22:36-40 and Luke 10:25-37) with references from the Old Testament, that the GREATEST law was to love god and the second was to love your neighbor as yourself .

Love your neighbor, Bill. Christians do that through ACTION and DEED. That means not to belittle them, be sarcastic with them, or threaten them with your own interpretation of judgment. You are a man filed with hate for those who do not meet your standard. You WILL be judged for this one day. I pray you come to your senses before that time.
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The point is that Paul sets the standard for salvation as faith or belief in accepting Jesus while Jesus explicitly rejects this standard and sets the standard at universal compassionate love expressed in actions.


Great post, SK. Happy Easter!
Hi Sofa,

Previously, you had written, "It is faith AND good deeds that get your ticket to heaven punched."

And, I asked you, "Where, in the Bible, do you find that -- that salvation is based upon faith AND good deeds?"

Now, you tell me, "Matthew 7:21 though 27 is a good start, Bill. Essentially, it says that faith without deeds are a house built upon sand that can wither and blow away in a storm. Faith WITH good deeds is a house built upon rock. You, sir, with your hatred of anyone who does not believe exactly as you do, are walking in quick sand. This passage and other clearly show that salvation is a WORK in progress. Jesus Himself said that those who do not do good deeds will not be known to Him."

Matthew 7:24-27, "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall."

This tells us that a Christian life without works is like a house built upon the sand. It says nothing about our salvation. Sofa, we know that the Bible interprets the Bible -- that no verse or passage stands alone. So, lets lay Matthew 7:24-27 beside 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 and see what we find.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15, "According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

The passage in 1 Corinthians 3 tells us that a man's work will be tested. In Matthew 7 we are told that if a man's house, i.e., his earthly work, what he has done for the kingdom of God and for his fellow man -- is built on a bad foundation -- it will not withstand the testing, the strong winds, rain, and flood of God's judgment.

Yet, we are told, "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss -- but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

So, Sofa, you started down the right path -- but, you stopped far short of the full answer.

Then, Sofa, you tell me, "True, Bill, Jesus never says that compassionate deeds "earn" salvation, or that any of us could ever "merit" the very gift of our existence. He merely sets that as the standard for compliance. Just as a child may offer its parents or grandparents an awkwardly drawn piece of art, which likely holds little real artistic merit (perhaps in terms of art critics it might be as "filthy rags"), still the parents sincerely and genuinely cherish such efforts. It may not "merit" winning an art contest and may be able to "earn" very little, but loving parents find it good enough to represent the qualities THEY deem of real and lasting value."

That is true. And, when Christian believers stand before Jesus Christ at the Bema Seat Judgment; we will have to answer for all that we did in this life -- every deed, good and bad; every word, good and bad; every thought, good and bad. We all will have revelations which will make us very uncomfortable when openly displayed before the Lord. We are told in 2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

Yet, this Bema Seat Judgment for believers is a Rewards Judgment; not a judgment of salvation. Our salvation will be determined in this life -- based upon Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." This judgment will take place in heaven during the seven year Tribulation which will be brought upon the world.

The judgment of punishment for non-believers will be the Great White Throne Judgment and this will happen at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, Christ's 1000 year reign on earth.

Next, you tell me, "The point is that Paul sets the standard for salvation as faith or belief in accepting Jesus while Jesus explicitly rejects this standard and sets the standard at universal compassionate love expressed in actions."

Paul, like all Biblical writers, wrote as he was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Thus, the books written by Paul, as well as all the book of the Bible -- were authored by God Himself. So, you are telling us that when God authored through Paul -- He said one thing. But, when He authored through John, He said something totally different, totally the opposite of what He had originally authored.

Sofa, God does not make mistakes. And, God does not change His mind -- God does not change (Malachi 3:6). What He has authored will stand for eternity.

You tell me, "For example, when asked by a lawyer what the most important commandment in the LAW was, Jesus answered (Matt 22:36-40 and Luke 10:25-37) with references from the Old Testament, that the GREATEST law was to love god and the second was to love your neighbor as yourself ."

Yes, if you will examine the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) you will find that the first four, our personal relationship with God, are encompassed in Jesus first commandment, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind" (Matthew 22:37)

And, you will find that the last six, our relationship with our fellow man, are a summation of, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39).

What Jesus Christ was doing was giving us His "short form" version of the Ten Commandments. Sofa, do you keep all the Ten Commandments?

Finally, Sofa, you tell me, "Love your neighbor, Bill. Christians do that through ACTION and DEED. That means not to belittle them, be sarcastic with them, or threaten them with your own interpretation of judgment. You are a man filed with hate for those who do not meet your standard. You WILL be judged for this one day. I pray you come to your senses before that time."

Let's break down what you are saying: "Love your neighbor, Bill. Christians do that through ACTION and DEED."

Most certainly that is the way ALL Christians should live their Christian lives. However, this is NOT what determines our salvation. This should be the FRUIT of our salvation -- it is NOT the cause of our salvation.

Next, "That means not to belittle them, be sarcastic with them, or threaten them with your own interpretation of judgment."

You have repeatedly made that accusation of me. Yet, when I have asked you to give me one example of where I have "threatened" anyone with any judgment -- the silence is deafening!

Then, "You are a man filed with hate for those who do not meet your standard."

Once again, show me an example of my hate. The silence is even more deafening.

Sofa, it may come as a shock to you -- but, disagreeing with you is not considered hate -- it is considered good apologetics.

And, "You WILL be judged for this one day."

At last! Something we can agree upon! Amen! Amen! Amen!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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So, Bill, did you read the Washington Post article with quotes from the people who discovered this dinosaur, clearly stating that the flesh, (AKA soft tissue) was petrified (AKA stone) and not "soft" at all? Did you google Stephen Jay Gould? If you did you would have found it quite amusing that your source would take the words of a scientist and athiest out of context to try to promote their cause.
Once again, Bill shows that even though he has his moments of lucidness, he is still bat spit crazy.

Yep, billions of years, Bill. And your 6000 years derives only from a misapplication of literalness by St. Augustine that only just exceeds your own misguidedness.

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