Vain Repetition

"Vain repetition"? Not sure, is it like someone we know that posts the same things over and over again on thread after thread? 

I bet old Bill repeats the Lord's Prayer every week. 

Ole Bill continues to repeat lie after lie in the name of the Lord to further his misshaped political agenda

 

Hi Vic, This was just posted on another discussion -- but, it fits well in this discussion:

 

Most likely the passage you are referring to is found in Matthew 6:

 

Matthew 6:5-8, "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men.  Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.   But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.  And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.  So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him."

 

In this passage, when Jesus says, "when you pray, go into your inner room" -- I do not believe He is saying to go hide in a secret room to pray.  But, instead, I believe He means that we should be looking into ourselves, seeking to go into our heart and share that with our Lord.  He knows what we need even before we ask; but, it is good for us to go into our "inner spiritual room" of our heart -- when we want to be in intimate, personal conversation with our Lord.

 

And, meaningless repetition is self explanatory.  We are not to just repeat by rote pre-written prayers.  Those do not come from our "inner spiritual self" -- but, from words written on paper by someone else.

 

So, whether it is the repetitive prayers of the Rosary, or repetitive prayers written in a Prayer Book -- it is not coming from our heart -- but, is being recited by rote -- from memory.  And, this is what Jesus has condemned.

 

And, then Jesus goes on to give His apostles an prayer guideline in verses 9 through 13.  

 

I believe there are three key prayer passages in Scripture;

 

Psalm 23 which is an affirmation that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior, our Shepherd.

 

Matthew 6:9-13 which we call the Our Father and is a guideline of how to pray to God.

 

And John 17 which, in my thinking, is the real Lord's Prayer -- for it is when He, Jesus Christ, is praying intercessory prayers -- first glorifying the Father; then praying for His immediate family, His apostles; then praying for His church down through the ages.  In other words, in the last part of John 17, over 2000 years ago -- Jesus was praying an intercessory prayer for YOU and for me.  Isn't that great?

 

O No suggests that Jesus is validating repetitive prayers when, in Matthew 26:36-46, He prayed three times.  

 

"My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will"  (Matthew 26:39)

"My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done"  (Matthew 26:42)

"And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more"  (Matthew 26:44).

 

Yes, He did pray three times, from His "inner spiritual self" -- not by rote or repetition.  And He did not need beads to keep track of His prayers.  He sincerely was asking God the Father to remove this cup, the cross, from His human being.  But, as always, His final words were, "Not my will, but Thy will be done." 

 

And, then O No suggests that Revelation 4 is an example of repetitive prayers.  Not so.   This is not prayer; but, instead, this is heavenly worship.  The twenty-four elders and the living creatures were singing the praises of God:

 

"Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!"  (verse 8) 

"You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created."  (verse 11)

 

Prayer should be a one-on-one conversation with our God -- close up and personal; not repetitive or pre-written prayers from memory or read from a book -- and recited by rote.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Thanks Bill! When I was younger my family attended catholic church services, and observing these parishioners repeat themselves as they recited the rosary simply made no sense to me. Why would God want you to repeat anything? He knows all of our needs and wants. Needless to say, I no longer attend catholic services.

Hi Renecillo,

 

There is nothing wrong with repeating a prayer.  The only problem being when one is repeating a pre-written prayer over and over, by rote -- and even needing beads or a Prayer Book to keep track of them.

 

I repeat a prayer every day, often a number of times a day.  What is that prayer?  I pray for God to watch over and protect my family -- to keep them in good health and to protect them from any accidents and other misfortunes which can occur in our live-too-fast society today.

 

And, each time I pray this prayer -- I ask God to protect them for another day.  Why just another day and not stretch it to a year, or ten years, or even a lifetime?  I do this for several reasons.  One, by doing it on a day by day basis -- I can see, daily, how He is answering my prayers.  And, this way, it encourages me to go to Him daily in prayer -- which is always a good practice.

 

My Friend, you say that you are no longer worshiping in the Roman Catholic church.  Are you worshiping in another church?  I pray that you are.  For God does not know, nor recognize, denominations -- not the Roman Catholic, nor the Baptist, nor any other.  

 

He recognizes only Christian believers gathering in His name and worshiping His Son.  He does not care if you sit quietly -- or if you sing, dance, and jump around.   He only cares about what is in your heart -- and He cares that what is in your heart is Jesus Christ.   So, my Friend, if you are not currently worshiping in a local church -- I encourage you to find a Christ-centered, Bible-teaching local church fellowship and join them in worship.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Renecillo,

 

I see that you live in Florence.  You might want to check out this church fellowship:

 

Forest Hills Baptists Church
110 Stovall Drive
Florence, AL
256-766-0721

 

God bless, Bill

 WTHAYDTTOINKDEAA.

Oh, YSKBTTDTAGHATU!

Hi Vic,

 

David began a new discussion in which she took the same approach as you -- taking Scripture which had nothing to do with repetition -- and trying to use those to validate the Rosary.  This is what I posted in that discussion since if fits very well here also:

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Hi David,

 

None of those Scripture references you show have anything to do with repetitive prayer.  They are about praying faithfully and consistently -- but, not repetitive prayers on beads or from pre-written Prayer Books -- prayed by rote.  That is what Jesus Christ condemned, the Rosary type of repetitive, by rote, kind of praying.  That is why the Rosary is not Biblical.

 

Also, on a typical Rosary -- one prays a handful of prayers such as the Our Father, the Nicene Creed, and the Glory Be.  But, in the typical Rosary there are 150 repetitive prayers to Mary -- against that small handful of other prayers.  So, the Rosary is definitely a prayer ritual to Mary.  Yet, nowhere in the Bible are we told to pray to Mary, period.

 

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

 

As Dr. Anthony Pezzotta has written in his book "Truth Encounter, Catholicism And The Holy Scripture," page 145:

 

Parts of the "Hail Mary" can be found in Scripture.  It begins with a statement which Gabriel used in greeting Mary.   "Hail (Mary), full of grace; the Lord is with you." (Luke 1:28).  And, then you have Elizabeth's greeting:  "Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb" (Luke 1:42).  These are found in the Bible, but they are greetings, not prayers.

 

The second part of the "Hail Mary" is not from the Bible.  It has been composed by the church and contains the unBiblical expressions:  "Holy Mary" and "Mother of God."

 

The Rosary  is unacceptable as a prayer because it is addressed to Mary who is a human being like you and me.  It is also unacceptable as a prayer because of the constant repetition of words.  Jesus had this to say about repetitive prayers:   "When you pray, do not use a lot of meaningless words, as the pagans do, who think that their gods will hear them because their prayers are long" (Matthew 6:7, TEV).

 

If anyone should know about Mary and praying the Rosary -- It is Dr. Anthony Pezzotta.  He was born in Italy, into a devout Roman Catholic family.  He studied for 15 years in Roman Catholic seminaries in Italy, England, Spain, and Germany -- and was ordained a Roman Catholic priest in 1961.  Having a number of advanced degrees, he was appointed Director of Schools and Seminaries, as well as a Rector of Local Salesian Communities in the Philippines -- where he served for ten years -- teaching other priests.

 

After leaving the Roman Catholic church, he earned another Master's degree from Denver Seminary and was awarded a Doctor of Divinity by Western Seminary in Oregon.

 

So, as you can see -- we are not talking about a man who only dabbled in Roman Catholicism for a while -- and then changed his mind.  Tony Pezzotta was very much a devout Roman Catholic -- until what he was teaching began to ring untrue to him.  That is when he knew he had to walk away from Catholicism and serve the Lord in a Baptist ministry.

 

Therefore, when this man tells me that it is not Biblical to pray to Mary, to worship Mary, and all the rest of the Marian dogma found in the Roman Catholic church -- I believe him.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Rev. 4:8 - the angels pray day and night without cessation the same words "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty." This is repetitious prayer that is pleasing to God.

believers reading this forum, please repeat the above prayer everyday with love.....

Jesus is coming soon!!!!!

Saw the thread title.  Do you think Dracula died in Vein?

Dracula didn't die, he's a dotting dad living in Romania.  

 

 

 

Now tell us about public prayer. 

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. (1 Tim 2:1-6) Paul clearly did not think that Christ’s role as “the one mediator” excludes the notion that we can pray for one another. Rather, “it is “good” and “acceptable in the sight of God our Savior”! In fact, it is precisely his role as the one mediator that makes it possible for those united in him to pray effectively for others. In sum, it seems to me that praying for another and asking for prayer from one another is a characteristic of believers. It is hardly a minor theme in the New Testament. Are those who in heaven simply relieved of this obligation? Do they no longer desire to pray for those who need it?

Hi David,

 

Let's take a look at the Scripture passage begun in Revlation 4:8:

 

Revelation 4:8-11,  "The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: 'Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!'  (9) Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, (10) the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying: (11) 'You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created.' "

 

I see a lot of singing praise to the Lord:  "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty"  and "You are worthy, O Lord."  But, I see no prayer -- and especially no repetitious prayer. 

 

Maybe that is the problem.   You get confused over what is prayer and what is praise. 

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

________________

#6.  You are on a roll with this one. Why don't you start another thread just to copy and paste this again?

Good evening Bill,

Hope all is well with you.  As usual, I'd like to clear up a few inaccuracies you have concerning the Rosary. 

Tonight I'd like to focus on this statement you made:

"The Rosary  is unacceptable as a prayer because it is addressed to Mary who is a human being like you and me.  It is also unacceptable as a prayer because of the constant repetition of words.  Jesus had this to say about repetitive prayers:   "When you pray, do not use a lot of meaningless words, as the pagans do, who think that their gods will hear them because their prayers are long" (Matthew 6:7, TEV)."

 

What makes prayer addressed to Mary unacceptable?   As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.  

 

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them! 

 

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding. 

 

The Rosary is not mindless repetition.  When Catholics recite the twelve prayers that form a decade of the rosary, they meditate on the mystery associated with that decade. If they merely recite the prayers, whether vocally or silently, they’re missing the essence of the rosary. It isn’t just a recitation of prayers, but a meditation on the grace of God. Critics, not knowing about the meditation part, imagine the rosary must be boring, uselessly repetitious, meaningless, and their criticism carries weight if you reduce the rosary to a formula. Christ forbade meaningless repetition (Matt. 6:7), but the Bible itself prescribes some prayers that involve repetition. Look at Psalms 136, which is a litany (a prayer with a recurring refrain) meant to be sung in the Jewish Temple. In the psalm the refrain is "His mercy endures forever." Sometimes in Psalms 136 the refrain starts before a sentence is finished, meaning it is more repetitious than the rosary, though this prayer was written directly under the inspiration of God. 

 

One ex-priest who lost the faith is probably not a good source for correct answers on Catholicism. 

 

Bonus piece of info on Catholics:  We do NOT worship Mary.  That is forbidden.

 

God bless!!!!

would someone please remind me what the Catholic definition of 'mystery' is? i know i read it here, but don't remember who or where it was.

thx, hg<><

A mystery is not something about which can’t know anything, but something about which we can’t know everything. 
God bless

hg> thanks<><

====================================

What about "The Lord's Prayer? Never recited it? 

 

Hypocrite

Hi Ubu,

 

Which is the Lord's Prayer -- Psalm 23, Matthew 6:9-13, or John 18?  I say that John 18 is the true Lord's Prayer -- for that is when He is praying for His apostles and for us.

 

Do I use Psalm 23 or Matthew 6 as part of my prayer life?   No.  I read them as Scripture; but, not as a part of my prayer life.  

 

My prayer life can be explained using the acronym ACTS.

A:  Adoration for my God, thanking Him for being my Lord and Savior, praising His holy name.

C:  Confession -- confessing the sins I know I have committed, being only a "forgiven sinner" -- and seeking His forgiveness and His strength to overcome this sin desire in the future.  And, it is acknowledging and owning my sins; even those I may not have known I committed.

T:  Thanksgiving -- thanking God for all the many blessings He has given to me and my family, including my extended Christian family.

S:  Supplication -- seeking His spiritual and material provisions for me, my family, my church family, and others in need -- seeking His help, His spiritual strength to overcome my sin nature to the best of my human abilities.

 

That said, how is YOUR prayer life?   Or, do you just repeat the Rosary by rote, then get on with your life?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hi Nathan

 

You tell me, "The Rosary is not mindless repetition.  When Catholics recite the twelve prayers that form a decade of the rosary, they meditate on the mystery associated with that decade."

 

Those twelve prayers consist of the Our Father, a Glory Be -- and TWELVE REPETITIVE HAIL MARYS.   How can that be described as anything except repetitive?  How can that be described as anything but worship of Mary -- for you are praying to Mary -- TEN repetitive times in each of the five decades.  Fifty prayers to Mary, five to Our Father, and five Glory Be.  That, my Friend, is worship.

 

Show me one instance in the Bible where we are told to pray to Mary -- or to anyone except God the Father and Jesus Christ, our ONLY mediator between God and man.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Good morning Bill,

I have showed you repeatedly where the Bible discussed prayer, and how the Rosary is meditative.  you refuse to accept it.  on the other hand, I'm glad to see that you use the CATHOLIC way for your prayer life.  ACTS is Catholic, and taught by the Catholic Church.  We teach it in our classes for those converting to Catholicism.  You can find it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church!!  Well done!!!

 

God bless

Nathan, everytime you turn your back billie will repost the same lie.

He will do this with every thread in which he disagrees. He doesn't care

how obvoius the lie he tells. He calls this refuting.

 

He refutes history set in concrete, he refutes common sense.

The tip off of his hate based theology of an extreme liar, is he's refuting 

common non religious knowledge. A hate vandette from a misguided 

ignorant old man with a phantom ticket to Heaven.

 

So there you go

 

 

---

Hi Renecillo,

 

Thank you for your response.  Not to worry about the folks who disagree or those who just throw rocks just to have something to say.  My belief has always been:  If everyone agrees with me, I must be doing something wrong!   

 

Those who disagree because they sincerely believe differently are welcome -- for they give us all a chance to look at the issue from several views.  In this way, and by always returning to the Bible for instruction and validation -- we all draw closer to God's truth.  In my thinking, that is why Bible studies and Sunday Schools are better places to learn -- for we can discuss.   In a sermon we most often learn, but cannot ask questions or raise comments.   So, in my mind, the sermon is where the pastors can lift the issues out of the Bible -- and then we gather in Bible study or Sunday School to chew on the issue in more detail.

 

And, even those who want to throw rocks just to be seen or heard -- well, even they sometimes inadvertently do stumble upon a good thought to be discussed.   So, you see, we all serve a purpose in God's plan.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

You have shown us Scripture about prayer -- but, never that we should pray to Mary or any other human, dead or alive.  We pray to God the Father and to Jesus Christ -- NO ONE ELSE.

 

You say the Rosary is only meditative.  Yet, the Hail Mary IS a prayer:

 

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,  (error number 1)
pray for us sinners,  (error number 2)
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

That contains at least two errors:  First, it asks her to pray for us -- yet, she is dead and cannot intercede for us.  Only Jesus Christ can intercede for us from heaven.  True, those believers on earth can pray intercessory prayers for us.  But, then, they are still alive.

 

You mention the prayer example:  ACTS -- and claim it to be Roman Catholic because someone in the Vatican was astute enough to add it to your catechism.  Okay.  Not a problem as long as you use that prayer technique and not the Rosary.  A valid method of prayer guidance is neither Roman Catholic or Protestant -- just good practice.

 

And, the difference between that and the Rosary is that the ACTS method only suggests a method or guideline of prayer -- and you add you own feelings, words, thoughts as you would in any conversation with a Best Friend.

 

The Rosary and Prayer Books are all pre-written praying by rote.   A world of difference -- and what Christ has condemned, repetitive prayer.

 

My Friend, lay aside your Rosary and pre-written Prayer Books and continue to pray using the very personal ACTS method.  You will find it much more productive.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

_____________

#7 ending in a #9. 

___________________

#7, #3, #8.  Embrace the system.

Good evening Bill,

Hope all is well.  You stated:  You have shown us Scripture about prayer -- but, never that we should pray to Mary or any other human, dead or alive.  We pray to God the Father and to Jesus Christ -- NO ONE ELSE.

 

That is ABSOLUTELY FALSE.  As I have repeatedly noted: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us. 

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44). 

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus.

 

There are NO ERRORS in the Hail Mary.  There are only errors in your interpretation.  As noted previously, when you deny that Mary is the Mother of God, you deny that Jesus is God.  You exclude yourself from the Christian commnuity at that point.   The denial that Mary had God in her womb is a heresy known as Nestorianism (which claims that Jesus was two persons, one divine and one human), which has been condemned since the early 400s and which the Reformers and Protestant Bible scholars have always rejected. 

 

And as noted previously, Mary and the saints in heaven are alive, for all are alive to God. this was clearly demonstated in the story of the burning bush. 

 

And  the Bible itself prescribes some prayers that involve repetition. Look at Psalms 136, which is a litany (a prayer with a recurring refrain) meant to be sung in the Jewish Temple. In the psalm the refrain is "His mercy endures forever." Sometimes in Psalms 136 the refrain starts before a sentence is finished, meaning it is more repetitious than the rosary, though this prayer was written directly under the inspiration of God. 

 

God bless!!

Luke 1:39-56

[39] At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, [40] where she entered Zachariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. [41] When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. [42] In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! [43] But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? [44] As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. [45] Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"

 

 

mother of God   another way of saying the "mother of my Lord"

because Jesus in both man and God fully. 

 

It does NOT mean that Mary preceded God,

 

If it were an error, Elizabeth would not have said it.

 

:-)

 

Hugs, and meows to everyone........

 

 

Hi David,

 

Please explain to us how a mother can have a child -- WITHOUT preceding that child.   Have you EVER heard of a mother who is not yet born -- having a child?  I have not, nor have you.

 

You say that Mary is the Mother of God -- then, she either would have to preexisting deity herself -- or she would have to have had a child before she was born.  Which do you believe is true?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ. 

 

 

Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God. 

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinctpersons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do. 

Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God. 

 

Council of Ephesus

 

"We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her" (Formula of Union [A.D. 431]). 

 

_____________

Easily handled with fundamentalist double talk.  Why don't you take a crack at it yourself?