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quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
This is my opinion, which is subject to change with new information. Wink

Jesus existed in Heaven before he was given to Mary. He gave up his deity to be a man and be the sacrifice for man's sins. He wasn't Joseph's son. He was God's son.

The sacrifice has to do with life blood, life over death, the blood of life victorious over death. The blood offered in the Old Testament was not sufficient because it was not a perfect sacrifice. Jesus, being sinless, was. His life blood, his life period, being pure and without blemish, covered all sin for all time.


Well said, I totally agree.
quote:
I've had to answer some tough questions and research some very good points made. In the end, I find that there is evidence for the Biblical claims.


"Evidence" yes. "Proof" absolutely not. There is "evidence" for the Flying Spaghetti monster, ghosts and space aliens.

No matter how much you study the bible, a 21st century, scientifically educated human simply cannot rationally accept that someone can rise from the dead to stand beside himself as ruler/creator of a universe. No matter how much you study the bible, you will find no "proof" of a woman raped by god and forced to give birth to his son.

This is not rational, Nash. It is FAITH.

Your FAITH will not allow you to see the proof that there have been other claims of virgin and miraculous births throughout recorded history. Your faith will not allow you to see that evolution as detailed in the science books is the best explanation for how we came to be. Your faith will not allow you to entertain the thought that perhaps Jesus was a good man or even a fictional character that is still immensely worthy of study from a sociological, historic or even religion standpoint.

Your faith has blinded you to the real world where magic does not really exist and where science and reason, not primitive superstition, is illuminating the secrets of the universe.
quote:
This is not rational, Nash. It is FAITH.

Your FAITH will not allow you to see the proof that there have been other claims of virgin and miraculous births throughout recorded history. Your faith will not allow you to see that evolution as detailed in the science books is the best explanation for how we came to be. Your faith will not allow you to entertain the thought that perhaps Jesus was a good man or even a fictional character that is still immensely worthy of study from a sociological, historic or even religion standpoint.

Your faith has blinded you to the real world where magic does not really exist and where science and reason, not primitive superstition, is illuminating the secrets of the universe.


You've read my posts, so we both know that none of what you wrote about me is true. I'm not sure why you mistakenly think that about me, I can't explain my views any better than I already have.

Please see my signature about the definition of faith.
An interesting excerpt from "gospel-mysteries.net Link :

"The virgin birth isn't mentioned in the earliest Christian writings, such as the letters of Paul and the gospel of Mark. This has led some scholars to argue that the idea wasn't part of the original beliefs about Jesus, but was introduced later. One possible explanation is that Mary didn't tell anyone about it until she was near the end of her life, so the earliest followers of Jesus never heard about it.

"Some ancient non-Christian writings give a completely different account of the birth of Jesus. These writings say that Mary was either seduced or raped, but that this was covered up. Some accounts even say that the real father of Jesus was a Roman soldier variously identified as Pantera, Pandera or Panthera. These non-Christian accounts are examined in detail by Dr. Jane Schaberg in her book The Illegitimacy of Jesus. Some of the evidence discussed in the book seems to support the idea that Mary was raped, but much more would be needed to provide a definite proof."

There's those pesky words again, Nash; "Proof" versus "evidence."
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptik:
An interesting excerpt from "gospel-mysteries.net Link :

"The virgin birth isn't mentioned in the earliest Christian writings, such as the letters of Paul and the gospel of Mark. This has led some scholars to argue that the idea wasn't part of the original beliefs about Jesus, but was introduced later. One possible explanation is that Mary didn't tell anyone about it until she was near the end of her life, so the earliest followers of Jesus never heard about it.

"Some ancient non-Christian writings give a completely different account of the birth of Jesus. These writings say that Mary was either seduced or raped, but that this was covered up. Some accounts even say that the real father of Jesus was a Roman soldier variously identified as Pantera, Pandera or Panthera. These non-Christian accounts are examined in detail by Dr. Jane Schaberg in her book The Illegitimacy of Jesus. Some of the evidence discussed in the book seems to support the idea that Mary was raped, but much more would be needed to provide a definite proof."

There's those pesky words again, Nash; "Proof" versus "evidence."


What you posted is neither proof nor evidence. No citations other than a singular book. The non-Christian writings are not provided and the rest is speculation.

Just because it's on the internet, doesn't mean it's true. With no citations or sources to show where the information came from, why believe it?
quote:
What you posted is neither proof nor evidence. No citations other than a singular book. The non-Christian writings are not provided and the rest is speculation.


Ok. So you beleive all other virgin birth stories ever mentioned in the history books are utterly false. What do you base that refutation upon?

What would you consider as "proof" (or at least strong evidence) that Alexander the Great or perhaps Buddha or maybe Caesar was born to a virgin?
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
No, I don't believe in zombies.


Exactly. Of course you don't. No one in their right mind could believe that a man could wake up unharmed from a tortured death and hang out a while before literally flying off into space to be with a omnipotent space alien.

That's the stuff of craziness, isn't it?
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptik:
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
No, I don't believe in zombies.


Exactly. Of course you don't. No one in their right mind could believe that a man could wake up unharmed from a tortured death and hang out a while before literally flying off into space to be with a omnipotent space alien.

That's the stuff of craziness, isn't it?


No, I don't believe in zombies. I do believe that a major event happened on a scale that completely changed history and still changes the lives of people 2000 years later. I believe the historical evidence as well as my own personal experiences.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
I do believe that a major event happened on a scale that completely changed history and still changes the lives of people 2000 years later. I believe the historical evidence as well as my own personal experiences.


My "belief" isn't much different, by the way. I happen to believe that a character was created between 1700 and 2000 years ago that was pretty profound. That belief is supported by the evidence and is subject to change.

We simply disagree on the usefulness and morality of the character in this modern 21st century.
quote:
Originally posted by hoss gal:
but that makes it originally about bloodthirstiness and retribution. you get down to it, someone still has to 'pay' for god to love you!

even lowly human parents don't require that.

there are just too many things that don't make sense and that are not even moral for me to understand why people adhere to this belief system. don't get me wrong, i think there is good in christianity, but the same can be said for all religions, i think.

if god requires you to overlook and forgive him for his mean past and the bad things he did, i don't see why he would expect better from you.

i'm out. we all know we aren't going to convince each other, anyway.


I'm not going to give you the feel good version because I think it's not based in truth. Here's my opinion on that.

God is a loving God, but that's not all He is. He is perfect. He cannot be perfect without also being just.

We humans have an understanding of consequences for wrongdoing. With or without scripture, we get this...that if you do something wrong, there will and should be consequences. The consequence of sin is physical and spiritual death. If mankind had not sinned, there would be no death. We sin - there are consequences for that sin.

God also cannot be perfect & be connected to sin. Therefore sin separates us from God. So because He and we needed to be reconciled to one another, he provided a just way to pay for wrongdoing or sin. He did this through the perfect sacrifice of Jesus to atone for sin once and for all & the way was paved for that through the symbolic action of the old covenant.

Please know that is just my take on the matter & I am fully aware of my limited ability as a human to completely describe the creator of the universe. That's only a drop in the bucket to all that He is, which is why I said that a virgin birth is almost anticlimactic.

Not trying to convert you, BTW (well, unless you really wanna...haha), just giving my thoughts on the subject. Smiler

==============================================================
Last edited by _Joy_
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
quote:
Originally posted by hoss gal:
but that makes it originally about bloodthirstiness and retribution. you get down to it, someone still has to 'pay' for god to love you!

even lowly human parents don't require that.

there are just too many things that don't make sense and that are not even moral for me to understand why people adhere to this belief system. don't get me wrong, i think there is good in christianity, but the same can be said for all religions, i think.

if god requires you to overlook and forgive him for his mean past and the bad things he did, i don't see why he would expect better from you.

i'm out. we all know we aren't going to convince each other, anyway.

I'm not going to give you the feel good version because I think it's not based in truth. Here's my opinion on that.

God is a loving God, but that's not all He is. He is perfect. He cannot be perfect without also being just.

We humans have an understanding of consequences for wrongdoing. With or without scripture, we get this...that if you do something wrong, there will and should be consequences. The consequence of sin is physical and spiritual death. If mankind had not sinned, there would be no death. We sin - there are consequences for that sin.

God also cannot be perfect & be connected to sin. Therefore sin separates us from God. So because He and we needed to be reconciled to one another, he provided a just way to pay for wrongdoing or sin. He did this through the perfect sacrifice of Jesus to atone for sin once and for all & the way was paved for that through the symbolic action of the old covenant.

JMHO

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quote:
I'm not going to give you the feel good version because I think it's not based in truth. Here's my opinion on that.

God is a loving God, but that's not all He is. He is perfect. He cannot be perfect without also being just.

We humans have an understanding of consequences for wrongdoing. With or without scripture, we get this...that if you do something wrong, there will and should be consequences. The consequence of sin is physical and spiritual death. If mankind had not sinned, there would be no death. We sin - there are consequences for that sin.

God also cannot be perfect & be connected to sin. Therefore sin separates us from God. So because He and we needed to be reconciled to one another, he provided a just way to pay for wrongdoing or sin. He did this through the perfect sacrifice of Jesus to atone for sin once and for all & the way was paved for that through the symbolic action of the old covenant.

Please know that is just my take on the matter & I am fully aware of my limited ability as a human to completely describe the creator of the universe. That's only a drop in the bucket to all that He is, which is why I said that a virgin birth is almost anticlimactic.

Not trying to convert you, BTW (well, unless you really wanna...haha), just giving my thoughts on the subject.


Very well put. I hope everyone reads this, best explanation yet.
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
...He is perfect.

If mankind had not sinned, there would be no death.
...
God also cannot be perfect & be connected to sin.
==============================================================


If god is perfect and man was made in his image, either he is NOT perfect or he (god) is a sinner.

He created man, who then sinned. So did god create sin as some cruel joke? Did man defy god? How is that possible if man was made in god's image and god is perfect?

It's illogical and silly.

You know this but your brainwashed side will not allow you to acknowledge it.
He didn't make us gods, fine, just created us in his image. Also, I think(??) that since God is spirit, it is our spiritual being that is created in his image, not our physical bodies. Although, had we not sinned, we'd have never tasted death, just like God won't. I'll have to think on that.

We discussed this recently and someone had a great post on that subject. I'll try to find it.

If you knew me and my life, you'd realize how utterly ridiculous calling me brainwashed is, but whatever makes you feel better. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
It's the same stuff that has already been debunked.


Well, it is certainly stuff that you disagree with but, no, I would not say "debunked."

Here is another intereting pre-Jesus "virgin birth" story for you to deny:

From Encyclopedia Brittanica:

"The legendary founders of the city of Rome were Romulus and Remus. They were said to be the twin sons of Mars, the god of war, and Rhea Silvia, the daughter of Numitor, king of Alba Longa.

Rhea had been forced to become a vestal virgin (holy female priests of Vestaby) by her uncle, Amulius, who had deposed Numitor. When Rhea gave birth, Amulius imprisoned Rhea Silvia and ordered servants to cast the infants adrift on the Tiber River. The Tiber was in flood, and the high waters safely carried the twins' basket to the riverbank, where they were deposited under a fig tree. There a she-wolf and a woodpecker, animals sacred to Mars, found the boys. The animals nursed, fed, and cared for them until they were found by Faustulus, the king's herdsman. He and his wife reared the twins."

This is a "family friendly" story. The REST of the story is that Rhea Sylvia (mother of Romulus and Remus) was raped by a god. Romulus and Remus were the byproduct and became saviors of Rome.

The God in this case was Mars.

True story.
fine, I looked up verses on us being created in God's image:

Genesis 1:26-27..."Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.' So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

Image is the Hebrew word "~lc", which means:
1. image
...a. images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)
...b. image, likeness (of resemblance)
...c. mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)

Likeness is the Hebrew word "twmd", which means:
1. likeness, similitude adv
2. in the likeness of, like as

So, as you can see, we're not exact replicas with all the attributes of God. We're just resemble him. It's like how my kids resemble me, but they are not my exact replica. Here's another verse with same wording that proves that, to me at least. Smiler

Genesis 5:3 "When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth."
I cannot agree with that. I only know that I resemble God because His Word says so, but I can't actually imagine how I could resemble him. I can only describe a small portion of who God is. The more I get to know Him, the more I realize how huge he is & how much more there is to learn about him and from him. My complexity is simple in comparison to him.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Originally posted by TheBaldGuy:
Virgin birth, resurrection, changing water into wine, healing the sick, raising the dead, etc. pre-date Christianity by centuries.


Prove it.


nash, you know the stories! i have no wish to argue! i will say i can no more prove any of them were born of virgin birth, than you can prove Jesus.

there are stories of Alexander the Great being from virgin birth! hahahaha. Big Grin
nash, here is a quick list of "likeness" between religions. some dating back before, some during christ time. now, your turn!



Krishna, Mithra of Persia, Quetzalcoatl of Mexico, the Chinese savior Xaca, Ya, the Chinese monarch, Plato, Pythagoras, Tamerlane, Genghis Khan, Apollos of Tyana and Augustus Caesar, were all supposed to have been the product of immaculate conceptions.

Krishna, Mithra of Persia, Quetzalcoatl of Mexico, Chris of Chaldea, Quirinus of Rome, Prometheus, Osiris of Egypt, Atys of Phrygia, all rose from the dead after three days.

At the birth of Confucius, five wise men from a distance came to the house, celestial music filled the air, and angels attended the scene.

The Sacrament or Eucharist was practiced by the Brahmans of India, and was introduced into the mysteries of Mithra, as well as among the Mexicans.

The concept of the 'Trinity' is Hindu. The Sanskrit term is 'Trimurti', meaning 'three bodies in one godhead'. In the Hindu trinity, it was Siva; the other members of the trinity being Brahma and Vishnu. [sidebar: In the Mexican trinity, Y Zona was the Father, Bascal the Word, and Echvah the Holy Ghost, by the last of whom Chimalman conceived and brought forth Quetzalcoatl.]
Buddha, the 'Enlightened One' who spurred a new form of spirituality which is a tangent of Hinduism.

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