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Interesting info on the significance of virgin births throughout history. Stolen from the internet so it must be true:

Virginity, perhaps on account of its rarity in those days among women of a marriageable age, had always a halo of sanctity cast over it by barbaric and semi-civilized tribes; and even in civilized Rome itself the Vestal Virgins were looked upon as peculiarly sacred.

This reverence for virginity seems to have sometimes been contemporaneous with the institution of religious prostitution on a large scale. There is, indeed, no reason why this should not have been the case, incongruous though it seems to us, as such religious prostitution was looked upon very differently from the way in which it would now be regarded.

In origin virginity was an institution designed to bring fertility to the fields (by sympathetic magic). The sacrifice of chastity in the service of the goddess was an act of devotion, and not an act of licentiousness.

When studying these customs we must remember that we are dealing with men and women brought up in an entirely different psychological climate from our own. A veneration for chastity was not incompatible with periodic orgies, nor with places set aside for sacred prostitution, asceticism and such prostitution being regarded as alternative ways of making a sacrifice for the public good.

It is not possible here to enter at length into the origin and history of the curious veneration for virginity in ancient times but it is of interest to note that the belief that some occult power was attached to this state of unblemished purity survived even up to the Middle Ages of our era.

For example, it was thought that virgins were peculiarly efficient as bait for Unicorns. The Unicorn, or rather his congener, the Monoceros-for it is of him that our present authority writes-was evidently a fastidious beast; only a virgin could attract him. On finding one tied up in the forest as a lure he was wont to kiss her, and then to fall asleep on her breast. Whereupon the brave hunter came up and slew him in his sleep. If the young woman was not really a virgin, the Monoceros immediately killed her, and disappeared before the hunter arrived.

This method of hunting the Monoceros is described in the "Bestiary" of Philip de Thaun, written in the twelfth century, and is but one of the many strange facts alleged by authors of that period in support of the theory that virginity had special virtues when dealings were had with animals, with demons, and with human beings.

To the Vestal Virgins in Rome were attributed the faculty of prophesying and many sacred virtues. All virgins were immune from death at the hand of the executioner, and the Vestals enjoyed many other privileges so long as they preserved their chastity.

The same idea is found in the histories of miraculous virgins that are so numerous in the mythologies of Asia. Such, for example, was the Chinese legend that tells how, when there was but one man with one woman upon earth, the woman refused to sacrifice her virginity even in order to people the globe; and the gods, honouring her purity, granted that she should conceive beneath the gaze of her lover's eyes, and a virgin-mother became the parent of humanity.

The Winter Solstice (around December 25) throughout history has been popular for Virgin Births probably due with its tie-in to the return of the sun and increasing fertility of the earth.

Other gods, kings and conquerors born to a virgin mother include:

Assyrian and Babylonian religions: Tammuz, Zoroaster, Tukulti-Ninurta II, Ashurbanipal

Egyptian Religions: Pharaoh Amenkept III by Mut-emm-ua. Ra god of the sun

Hinduism: Krishna, Karna

Greco-Roman religions: Alexander the Great, Zethus and Amphion by Antiope, Auge, Gionysus Melanippe, Mithras by a rock, Romulus by Rea Sivia

Chinese tradition: Lao Tzu, Genghis Khan

Buddhism: Gautama Buddha by Maya

Christianity: Jesus by Mary
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It is true that much ado has been made of virgins having miracle babies throughout the history of the world.

To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a miracle birth as subscribed to innumerable individuals, Jesus included.

It's just this kind of superstition, that effectively eclipses the truths of religion.

Sad, isn't it?

Al
quote:
Originally posted by rramlimnn:
Boring boring boring Skep.


Great argument!
I really enjoyed how you discredited his information by providing links to historical facts that would persuade the reader to disbelieve the information.

I was almost convinced that today's "god" was a mere copy of yesterday's Gilgamesh Epoch.

It's a good thing you came along with your insight "boring boring boring" and cleared the air on the lies that skeptic attempts to spread.

Thanks rramlimnn
quote:
Originally posted by alwilliams767: It is true that much ado has been made of virgins having miracle babies throughout the history of the world. To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a miracle birth as subscribed to innumerable individuals, Jesus included. It's just this kind of superstition, that effectively eclipses the truths of religion. Sad, isn't it? Al
Hi Al,

You came on the Forum wearing your Christian hat; but, I have to admit, I wondered which pawn shop you found it in. Then, you began to add your New Age flowers to your Christian hat -- and, I have to admit that I truly began to doubt if you could spell Christian.

However, now -- you have removed all doubt. You may be New Age, you may be a number of other things -- but, a Christian believer you are not. Am I judging you, as many of our atheist, liberal, and non-believing Friends will begin to shout? No, just calling a duck a duck. So, save your breath -- and put down your rocks. I am just calling it as I see it.

You know the old saying, "If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck -- then, odds are very strong -- that it is a duck."

So, my ducky Friend, keep on quacking!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
However, now -- you have removed all doubt. You may be New Age, you may be a number of other things -- but, a Christian believer you are not. Am I judging you, as many of our atheist, liberal, and non-believing Friends will begin to shout? No, just calling a duck a duck. So, save your breath -- and put down your rocks. I am just calling it as I see it.

You know the old saying, "If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck -- then, odds are very strong -- that it is a duck."
Bill


You may claim to be a Christian, and you may have uttered some incantation in front of a congregation; perhaps you have claimed your salvation to all who will listen. You may be a number of other things -- but, an example of how Christ can change your life you are not. So, save your breath -- and put down your rocks. I am just calling it as I see it.

You know the old saying, "If it brays like an ...

I'm sure you get the rest.
Hi Joy and Zip,

While it may make you feel all warm and fuzzy to tell a non-believer that all is well -- you are doing that person more harm than good.

Would you tell a junkie that it is okay for him to continue shooting up? Would you suggest to an alcoholic that he would feel better if he had one more drink?

No, you would not. At least, I hope you would not.

So, why do you insist upon telling non-believers that what they are saying and doing -- is okay?

As I said, this might make you feel all comfy; but, you are not doing the non-believer any favor.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
Forgive me, but I couldn't get past "virginity is an institution" without laughing.


Agreed. It had never dawned on me that virginity was treated as an institutional concept. That was the key point that motivated me to post this.

Times have changed, We don't believe that junk any more.
I've been doing a little more research on those "deities" you listed as being born to virgins since it is slow at the office.

Tukulti-Ninurta II was the son of Adad-nirari II, king of Assyria. If Tukulti's dad was a king, how could his mother be a virgin?

Before you answer that, please answer my question about Krishna first.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Joy and Zip,

While it may make you feel all warm and fuzzy to tell a non-believer that all is well -- you are doing that person more harm than good.

Would you tell a junkie that it is okay for him to continue shooting up? Would you suggest to an alcoholic that he would feel better if he had one more drink?

No, you would not. At least, I hope you would not.

So, why do you insist upon telling non-believers that what they are saying and doing -- is okay?

As I said, this might make you feel all comfy; but, you are not doing the non-believer any favor.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Mmmm, sorry, no sale. There was no love in your response to him. He will not receive anything you have to say. Glaringly obvious from your post...You were not operating from a place of love. You were operating from a place of pride. This drives people further from God, not to God.

I really do love you, whether you really are my brother in Christ or a tool being used against Christ. You never hear what other Christians tell you; so I'm wasting my time. I just wasn't going to do like I often do, say something negative to Skeptic (or whoever) when a prideful post by yourself exists in the same thread. They see that as unfair & they're right. Don't get too worried about that as I doubt I'll visit the Religion section very often. It's always the same pissing contest, no understanding or progress, just one upping each other in the name of Pride...not my idea of a good time. Wink There are a couple of exceptions to that, of course (Nash, Zip, etc.), but it gets buried in the same ole same ole. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
I looked a few of them up that I haven't heard of, including Tammuz. No mention of a virgin birth.


Google is your friend, Nash. From a source cited in Wiki: "Tammuz (Sumerian Dumuzi), was a prototype of the Classical Adonis, who was the consort as well as son by virgin birth, of the goddess-mother of many names: Inanna, Ninhursag, Ishtar, Astarte, Artemis, Demeter, Aphrodite, Venus" (in "Oriental Mythology: The Masks of God" pp 39-40).

quote:
So here is a question. You posted Krishna as an example of a deity born to a virgin. Do you believe that is really part of Krishna's story?


No, I don't personally believe any of it. Just as many Christian religions do not support the virgin birth story of Jesus*, it appears that some Krishna followers don't accept Krishna's either.

From Link "Paul and the author(s) of the Gospel of John appear to directly reject the concept of virgin birth. The author of the Gospel of Mark appears to have been unaware of it. The authors of Matthew and Luke accepted the belief. Christians today are divided."

The same source states "The virginal state of Devaki is also a matter of debate. One tradition states that Krishna was her eighth child. Another states that it was a virgin birth: "In the context of myth and religion, the virgin birth is applied to any miraculous conception and birth. In this sense, whether the mother is technically a virgin is of secondary importance to the fact that she conceives and gives birth by some means other than the ordinary....the divine Vishnu himself descended into the womb of Devaki and was born as her son Krishna."

There are some other interesting comparisons between Krishna and Jesus for you to deny: Link
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
Tukulti-Ninurta II was the son of Adad-nirari II, king of Assyria. If Tukulti's dad was a king, how could his mother be a virgin?


I have no freaking idea. The Google has very little to offer on Tukuli II (I did discover the Tukuli the 1st was also known as "Nimrod" in the Old Testament).

What I found interesting in the article was that many other kings and conquerors were reputed to have been born by miraculous means including Alexander the Great.

From: Link

In ancient times it was often claimed that important people had miraculous births. Plato was said to have been born by the union of the god Apollo with his mother. Likewise, Alexander the Great was said to have been conceived when a thunderbolt fell from heaven and made his mother Olympias pregnant before her marriage to Philip of Macedon. In the book of Genesis we read that sons of gods had intercourse with women to produce heroes (Gen. 6:4). Even the recently discovered Dead Sea Scrolls tell of the miraculous birth of Noah and how his father Lamech was suspicious that his wife had been made pregnant by an angel. Also the writings of Philo of Alexandria, who was born about 20 B.C., contain evidence that some Jews of the period were speculating about miraculous births of religious heroes. Philo relates how Hebrew notables such as Isaac and Samuel were conceived by barren women by the intervention of the divine Spirit.
quote:
From Link "Paul and the author(s) of the Gospel of John appear to directly reject the concept of virgin birth. The author of the Gospel of Mark appears to have been unaware of it. The authors of Matthew and Luke accepted the belief. Christians today are divided."


Show me the verse where John rejects the virgin birth. By the way, your link didn't work. Also, Mark does not mention Christ's birth, that doesn't mean he was unaware of the story behind it.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
Google is your friend as well. Tammuz's "virgin birth" is a matter of opinion.

Link


Well of COURSE it's a matter of opinion, Nash. ALL virgin births are a matter of debate because a reasonable person can only conclude that NONE OF THEM HAPPENED.


quote:
Also, I did not ask if you believed Krishna was born to a virgin. I asked if you believed it was part of the story. You included him as an example of virgin births. Is it really?


It appears to be a matter of debate, Nash. It appears that, like the followers of Jesus some followers believe it to be a part of the story and some don't. I have no friggin idea how "fundamental" that point is to their religion.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
You listed Tukuli II as being born to a virgin. Are you retracting that now?


No. I'm saying I have no idea. I'm not an expert on any of this stuff. I provided a link to a book written on the subject and have shown that many other kings are associated with miraculous births. Deny all of them if you wish but the evidence is clear: Jesus was but one of many stories of virgin births.
quote:
It appears to be a matter of debate, Nash. It appears that, like the followers of Jesus some followers believe it to be a part of the story and some don't. I have no friggin idea how "fundamental" that point is to their religion.


If you don't know how fundamental it is, then why did you list it as an example of a virgin birth?

Link

"Traditional belief based on scriptural details and astrological calculations gives the date of Krishna's birth, known as Janmashtami,[29] as either 18 or 21 July 3228 BCE.[30][31][32] Krishna belonged to the royal family of Mathura, and was the eighth son born to the princess Devaki, and her husband Vasudeva.

If the traditional story of Krishna says that his mom had 7 kids before him, that is hardly a virgin birth. So why did you include him in your list?

What source did you use that said Krishna was born of a virgin? Also, what group Christians do not believe in the virgin birth?
quote:
No. I'm saying I have no idea. I'm not an expert on any of this stuff. I provided a link to a book written on the subject and have shown that many other kings are associated with miraculous births. Deny all of them if you wish but the evidence is clear: Jesus was but one of many stories of virgin births.


So you didn't check the author's facts? A little bit of Googling and the author's claims have pretty much fallen apart. It would be pretty funny if it was Ehrman.

You're supposed to be skeptical, why would you take this author at his word and not check something before you post it?
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
[QUOTE] Show me the verse where John rejects the virgin birth. By the way, your link didn't work.


That quote may or may not be accurate. The Google has no other reference to (that I feel like chasing down, anyway) so I'll retract it.

The FACT is that the gospels do not all agree on the virgin birth story.

From a Catholic study at Link The Modernists also call attention to the following remarks concerning the Saviour, recorded in the Gospel: "Is not this the carpenter's son?" (Matthew 13:55); "Is not this the son of Joseph?" (Luke 4:22); "We have found him of whom Moses did write, Jesus, the son of Joseph of Nazareth" (John 1:45); "Is not this Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know?" (John 6:42), These examples reflect the popular opinion which went by appearances and which knew nothing of the Virgin Birth.

The link works fine for me. It's on "www . religoustolerance . com"

quote:
Also, Mark does not mention Christ's birth, that doesn't mean he was unaware of the story behind it.


Well, it is certainly an important "fact" to just leave out when you are inspired by the Creator Himself to write a story about the life of His boy.
The authors were quoting other people, not making their own statements.

Matthew 1: 22-23 "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"[d]—which means, "God with us."

That's just one example, I'll let you look up the rest.

Mark wrote about Christ's teachings, death, and resurrection. He said nothing about His birth or childhood. Again, the fact that it is not mentioned does not mean Mark did not believe in the virgin birth. It simply proves that Mark didn't write about it.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
If the traditional story of Krishna says that his mom had 7 kids before him, that is hardly a virgin birth. So why did you include him in your list?


Like I said before and will continue to say again and again: All virgin births are hotly debated.

Here is a link to a Krishna forum where followers are debating the subject: Link

It is clear that at least some (most?) Krishna fundamentalists believe he was born of a virgin.
quote:
The FACT is that the gospels do not all agree on the virgin birth story.


That's not a fact at all.

Matthew 1: 22-23 "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"[d]—which means, "God with us."

Luke 1: 26-28 "In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

John picks up the story when Jesus is baptized, that Gospel does not dispute the claim of a virgin birth. The verses you listed were the author quoting others, not making his own claims. The verses from Matthew and Luke, those statements were made by people from His hometown. It is not the author disputing the claim.

You're pulling stuff off the internet, but not checking the facts. That's not very skeptical.

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