Visions of Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven

Hi Vic,

 

Please show us where you find Purgatory in the Bible.   I have searched and searched -- and I cannot find it in any of the 66 books of the Bible.

 

Where do YOU find it in Scripture?

 

2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

 

Notice that this says ""All Scripture is inspired by God" -- not all writings, thoughts, and ideas of men are inspired by God.  All 66 books, canonized and included in the Bible, were inspired by God.  Commentaries, encyclicals, catechisms, ideas, thoughts, sermons, dreams, hallucinations, etc., come from man -- based upon what he believes God teaches in those 66 books of Scripture.

 

Men (and women), all are fallible.  God's Written Word is not fallible.  So, if you are going to speak of doctrines such as purgatory -- you should be able to show this in Scripture. 

 

So, my Friend, where do YOU find purgatory in Scripture?  And, please, do not even think about going to 1 Corinthians 3:15 -- for that has absolutely NOTHING to do with purgatory.  That passage is speaking of the Believers' Judgment (Bema Seat Judgment) which will take place in heaven during the seven year Tribulation.  This is when the Bride of Christ, the worldwide body of believers, will prepare herself, receiving her own righteousness, for the Wedding Feast of the Lamb (Rev 19:6-9).

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hi Vic,

 

In other words -- NO, YOU CANNOT show us purgatory in Scripture.

 

Not a problem, no one else can show it either -- for it is not there!   But, I see your solid Roman Catholic apologetics style is still intact. 

 

Bless your heart!

 

Bill

 

The Divive Mercy Chaplet is one of my favorites. 

 

Then do it!   But, I must correct one false statement you made, "I've shown you more than a few times."

 

Not true!   You have NEVER shown us purgatory in Scripture!   And, neither has anyone else.

 

Why?  Because it is not there.   Sure, you can posture and pose, rant and rave, and call me derogatory names.   But, in the end -- it all comes down to -- YOU CANNOT SHOW PURGATORY IN SCRIPTURE! 

 

You erroneously try to claim 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 as your proof text.  But, that shows how little you and your folks know about the Bible.  That Scripture passage is speaking of the Believers' Judgment (Bema Seat) and has absolutely NOTHING to do with the false doctrine of purgatory.

 

So, let me save you the effort of copy/pasting your "Stutter Step" rambling again.  I will do it for you:

 

Yes I can, but I've shown you more than a few times and I'll not waste my time on your stupidity.  You don't have a complete Bible, all you have is an abridge convenience for your Calvinist dream world.

 

And, once again -- and no matter how many times you continue to copy/paste your "Stutter Step" -- it will ALWAYS be wrong.

 

But, hey, at times when a "Biblically challenged" person wants to argue -- all that is left to him is to "Stutter Step."  So, since that is the limit of your Biblical knowledge -- have at it!  Copy/paste to your little heart's content!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Mr. Gray I cant find "Bema Seat Judgment" anywhere in Scripture either? Where do YOU find it in Scriptures? Or is this a case of it's only in the bible if YOU say it is? 

Hi GD,

 

If you will visit 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (in case you are not sure, that is in the Christian Bible) -- you will find a perfect description of the Believers' Judgment (Bema Seat Judgment) which will take place in heaven, after the Rapture and during the seven year Tribulation.  The seven year Tribulation being the time God has chosen to bring His Refiner's Fire upon the nation of Israel -- to cleanse and sort out His remnant of Israel.

 

Then, this article will give you a better understanding of the Believers' Judgment:

 

Question:  "What is the Judgment Seat of Christ / Bema Seat of Christ?" http://www.gotquestions.org/judgment-seat-Christ.html

Answer:   Romans 14:10-12 says, “For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat…so then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.”  Second Corinthians 5:10 tells us, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

 

In the context, it is clear that both scriptures are referring to Christians, not unbelievers.  The judgment seat of Christ, therefore, involves believers giving an account of their lives to Christ.

 

The judgment seat of Christ does not determine salvation; that was determined by Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf (1 John 2:2) and our faith in Him (John 3:16).  All of our sins are forgiven, and we will never be condemned for them (Romans 8:1).

 

We should not look at the judgment seat of Christ as God judging our sins, but rather as God rewarding us for our lives.  Yes, as the Bible says, we will have to give an account of ourselves. Part of this is surely answering for the sins we committed.  However, that is not going to be the primary focus of the judgment seat of Christ.

At the judgment seat of Christ, believers are rewarded based on how faithfully they served Christ (1 Corinthians 9:4-27; 2 Timothy 2:5).  Some of the things we might be judged on are how well we obeyed the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20), how victorious we were over sin (Romans 6:1-4), and how well we controlled our tongues (James 3:1-9).

 

The Bible speaks of believers receiving crowns for different things based on how faithfully they served Christ (1 Corinthians 9:4-27; 2 Timothy 2:5).  The various crowns are described in 2 Timothy 2:5, 2 Timothy 4:8, James 1:12, 1 Peter 5:4, and Revelation 2:10.

 

James 1:12 is a good summary of how we should think about the judgment seat of Christ: “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

 

And the Scripture verse in James 1:12 (“Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test. . .") parallels what we find in 1 Corinthians 3:15 ("If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.")

 

And, that, GD, my Friend -- is the Bema Seat Judgment, which I prefer to call the Believers' Seat Judgment in anticipation of non-believers such as you raising such questions.

 

But, I do thank you for raising the question so that more of our Forum Friends might know about the Judgment Seats of Jesus Christ (Believers' Judgment during the Tribulation, Great White Throne Judgment for all non-believers after His Millennial Reign on earth) -- which WILL happen for ALL PEOPLE.

 

Now, I realize that you will not find these in YOUR New Age Urantia Book bible nor in your Universalist cult bible.  But, it is most certainly in the Christian Bible.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Divine mercy prayer is one of my favorites too.  I have the picture in my house also.

Hi David,

 

Please explain what you mean by "divine mercy prayers"? 

 

Question: "What is the difference between mercy and grace?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/mercy-grace.html

Answer:  Mercy and grace are often confused.  While the terms have similar meanings, grace and mercy are not the same.  To summarize the difference: mercy is God not punishing us as our sins deserve, and grace is God blessing us despite the fact that we do not deserve it. 

 

Mercy is deliverance from judgment.

 

Grace is extending kindness to the unworthy.

 

Do you agree with this explanation of mercy and grace?  And, if so, where does "divine mercy prayers" fit into this explanation?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

BG,

The prayer is:


Eternal Father, I offer you the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world.

For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

I'm having me some Quaker Oats at this moment. Love-um!

===========

Please show me in the Bible where it says the Quakers make oats?!

I'm still waiting for Bill to show me an infallible list of Scripture.  It's great to say that all Scripture is inspired by God.  I'm still waiting to see what Bill uses as his source for determining what is Scripture, and what isn't.  He has yet to prove to me or anyone else that the Gospel of Thomas is not Scripture.  Nor has he produced an infallible list of books in Scripture.  Praised be Jesus forever!!

Hi David,

 

That is a nice prayer.  But, it has one major flaw.  Man cannot offer the body and blood of Jesus Christ -- God did that, man cannot offer the body and blood of Christ.

 

If you were thanking God for the gift of Jesus Christ's body and blood to be our atonement; that would be blessed.  If you were thanking God for the mercy, grace, and love He has shown us; that would be blessed. 

 

But, man cannot offer the body and blood of Christ to God.  That would be putting man above God -- which cannot happen,

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

My Friend, it is not Bill Gray who says, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work"  (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

 

That, my Friend, came from God, through the apostle Paul.  Do YOU not believe it to be true?  If so, are you saying that God is wrong?   Are you saying that the men of the Vatican are more knowledgeable than God?

 

You ask for a list of infallible Scripture.  Do you believe that the Bible is not inerrant?  Do you believe the Holy Spirit made errors when He inspired men to write the Bible?  If so, then you must believe that the Holy Spirit, God, is not omnipotent.  Really?

 

By the way, what is YOUR proof of the validity of the Gospel of Thomas as canonized Scripture?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

YOUR REQUESTED LIST OF INFALLIBLE SCRIPTURE!

So in other words Mr. Gray, your "Bema Seat Judgment" is actually an interpretation and not really found in the Scriptures? Got it thanks  

 

Not at all true, my Friend.  It is obvious you did not read, or are pretending to not have read (like you pretended to be Malibu Girl trying to sell your New Age Urantia Book religion before) -- and that would make you either a sloppy reader, or a very devious person.  You can decide that for yourself.

 

What I told you in my earlier post was this:

 

If you will visit 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (in case you are not sure, that is in the Christian Bible) -- you will find a perfect description of the Believers' Judgment (Bema Seat Judgment) which will take place in heaven, after the Rapture and during the seven year Tribulation.  The seven year Tribulation being the time God has chosen to bring His Refiner's Fire upon the nation of Israel -- to cleanse and sort out His remnant of Israel.

 

Then, this article will give you a better understanding of the Believers' Judgment:

 

Question:  "What is the Judgment Seat of Christ / Bema Seat of Christ?" http://www.gotquestions.org/judgment-seat-Christ.html

Answer:   Romans 14:10-12 says, “For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat…so then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.”  Second Corinthians 5:10 tells us, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

 

In the context, it is clear that both scriptures are referring to Christians, not unbelievers.  The judgment seat of Christ, therefore, involves believers giving an account of their lives to Christ.

 

The judgment seat of Christ does not determine salvation; that was determined by Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf (1 John 2:2) and our faith in Him (John 3:16).  All of our sins are forgiven, and we will never be condemned for them (Romans 8:1).

 

In 2 Corinthians 5:10 we read, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

 

In Strong's Concordance, we are told that the phrase "the judgment seat" is the Greek word "bema" which means: "a raised place mounted by steps, a platform, tribune, the official seat of a judge, the judgment seat of Christ."

 

So, YES, my Friend, the Bema Seat Judgment of Jesus Christ, i.e., the judgment where all believers must stand before Christ (Believers's Judgment) to account every word or action done in this mortal life -- is definitely in the Bible.   This is a judgment of rewards or loss of rewards -- not a judgment of punishment.  

 

The judgment of punishment comes after the Millennial Reign of Christ and will be only for non-believers -- all non-believers will be resurrected into their immortal eternal bodies to stand before Christ in punishment, then will go into the lake of fire, hell (Revelation 20:11-15).

 

The Beleivers' Judgment (Bema Seat Judgment) WILL happen after the church, all believers, has been Raptured into heaven before the seven year Tribulation.  During the Tribulation, we will stand before Christ at the Bema Seat Judgment -- and then comes the Wedding Feast of the Lamb where the Bridegroom, Jesus Christ, will take His Bride, the Christian church, i.e., the body of believers, to be His Wife (Revelation 19:6-9).

 

After the seven year Tribulation He will return to earth, HIs Bride with Him -- to establish His 1000 year Millennial Kingdom on earth.  From the throne of David in Jerusalem, He will rule the earth, the perfect theocracy, for 1000 years -- and then He will take all we believers (New Testament believers, Old Testament believers, Tribulation believers, and Millennial Kingdom believers) into eternity with Him so that we will be in the joyful presence of God the Father for eternity.

 

That, my Friend, is Biblical.   I would suggest, strongly, to you that you throw away your New Age Urantia Book bible, throw away all connections with your cult Universalism religion -- and get right with God while there is still time.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Most everything you said there contradicts what Peter said as to when Judgment for believers is to happen. 

 

1Pe 4:17  For the time has come for the judgment to begin from the house of God. And if it first begins from us, what will be the end of those disobeying the gospel of God? 

 

And we can actually know when and how we are being judged. 

 

2Th 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, my brothers, as it is right, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of each one of you abounds toward one another;
2Th 1:4 so much so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God, for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations which you endure.
2Th 1:5 For this is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God for which you also suffer,
2Th 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you,

 

Why does the word judgment mean something here and then mean something else there? You just totally made all that gobbly**** up Mr. Gray. None of it can be found in the Scriptures. You lie. 

 

Why not simply believe what is written rather then make stuff up? Judgment is the same for believers and non believers, they just happen at different times. And it happens to EVERY MAN!

A few are judged now, the many are judged later in the Lake of Fire. Both the few and the many are judged and saved by fire. 

 

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

2nd perfect witness below.

 

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

So simple even a child can understand this. Never the less all is of God and He means for the many to be deceived at this time. 

 

It's amazing how one can twist Scriptures to try and say something that is totally unfounded in them. Yet most are unable to believe the simple truth as it is written. 

Hi GD, aka Malibu Girl, aka et al (too numerous to list),

 

So you choose to follow your cult religion of Universalism -- and I choose to follow my Christian faith; okay.  However, I will continue to refute your false teachings by showing more accurately what the Bible does tell us.

 

For example, you tell me, "Most everything you said there contradicts what Peter said as to when Judgment for believers is to happen."

 

And, then you copy/paste Scripture verse/passage from 1 Peter and 2 Thessalonians -- BUT, you do not explain how those verses/passages contradict what I wrote.  Just showing the verses means nothing if you cannot explain what they say and how they prove my interpretation wrong.

 

Then, you claim, "Why does the word judgment mean something here and then mean something else there? You just totally made all that gobbly**** up Mr. Gray.  None of it can be found in the Scriptures.  You lie."

 

And, once again, you copy/paste from 1 Corinthians 3 and Revelation 20 -- BUT, you do not explain those passages, what they mean, and how that makes my interpretation wrong.

 

GD, my Friend, tossing out Scripture verses and passages -- with no explanation of what they mean -- is merely spitting into the wind.  That tells me nothing -- except that your cult guru has told you what to believe -- and you will follow him by rote.

 

Several of our Roman Catholic Friends do the same when quoting, by rote, what the Vatican tells them.

 

The Christian faith is not a "by rote" religion -- but, is a personal relationship which we build upon through our efforts to better understand God's revelations given to us in His Written Word, the Bible.

 

All you are doing is exactly what you did with your New Age Urantia Book religion.  You copy/pasted long sections from that New Age bible -- hoping that by sheer volume you will convince some that your New Age religion is right.  Sorry, no cigar!

 

My Friend, volume of text means nothing -- if there is no explanation nor understanding of what it tells us.  I do not have a "by rote" religion -- I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

You should give it a try.  It can make an eternal difference in your life.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill