Skip to main content

Hi to my Forum Friends,

In an earlier discussion "The Stations Of The Cross -- Response To Mr. Gray" -- I had told my Forum Friend, VP, that salvation is a "free gift" from God -- but, we have to accept that free gift if we want eternal salvation.

And, I remind VP that Jesus told us from the cross of Calvary, "It is finished!" which meant that He had "paid in full" our sin debt, a debt we would never be able to pay -- and now He offers this "paid in full" pardon to everyone who will believe and receive His "free gift" of salvation.

VP responded, "I think that where we indeed split is in your conviction of a 'free gift.' I do not believe for one minute that this gift is free."

Tomme told him, "VP, When Jesus said this (It is finished!), the word He used for finished literally meant "it is PAID." The debt was settled. The Price was high, but the Gift IS FREE."

And, VP responds, "I happen to think there is more to it than a free gift of salvation - and that's my right. As it it Tomme's to believe otherwise. Neither of us can unequivocally say the other is wrong."

You are right that we cannot unequivocally say that what Tomme, Bill Gray, or you say is Biblically correct. That is why we are encouraged in Acts 17:11 to test ALL teaching against Scripture. While you, Tomme, and I can be wrong -- the Bible is never wrong.

So, what does the Bible tell us about salvation?

Romans 3:21-24, "But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus."

Romans 5:15-17, "But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

2 Corinthians 9:15, "Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!"

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

What is the difference between wages and a gift?

According to Webster's New World Dictionary Of The American Language:

Wage: Money paid to an employee for work done and usually figured on an hourly, daily, or piecework basis.

Gift: Something given to show friendship, affection, support, etc. -- a present.

According to Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary:

Wage: Compensation for performing work or service.

Gift: The act of bestowing a favor or an item on another person without expecting anything in return. The purpose of a gift may be to honor, celebrate, or simply to bestow favor or help.

Over and over, in the Bible, we find that we have a "gift from God" -- but, nowhere in the Bible does it tell us that we have earned "wages" from God. Why do you suppose this is?

As an exercise, go to the Blue Letter Bible web site http://www.blueletterbible.org and in Search, type in "wages." You will find 39 times this appears in the Bible -- and every single time it is always what one man gives to another; never a mention of God giving wages.

Now, go back and search for "gift" -- and, you will find many references to God giving "gifts" to man -- gift of the Holy Spirit, gift of eternal life, gift of His grace, gift of righteousness, etc.. He gave us the "gift" of His Son to be our atonement, our propitiation -- our "paid in full" pardon.

VP, ask yourself these questions: Do you want the "wages" you have earned from God, through your works, to determine your eternal salvation?

Or,

Do you want your eternal security, your eternal salvation -- based upon the "gift" of God, the "free gift" (Romans 6:23, Romans 5:15) of God?

My Friend, if you want to keep working your way into heaven, that is your right. But, can you tell us that you, or anyone you know, or anyone you know of -- has worked "enough" to earn the right to enter heaven? If so, who is it? Surely not the Pope, nor any Cardinal, Bishop, or Priest -- for, if asked if they are going to heaven when they die -- they will all tell you that they do not know.

Let's put this in a frame of reference to which all we Alabamians can relate: Football!

If you had been on the committee to hire a head coach for Alabama when they were interviewing Nick Saban -- and you asked him, "Can you make Alabama a winning football team? If he responded, "Well, I am not sure. But, I will really try" -- would you have voted to hire Nick Saban to be the head coach of Alabama? No!

No! Yet, I can promise you that -- when asked if he can make Alabama a winning football team -- Nick Saban said, without hesitation, an unequivocal, "YES!" And, for that "YES!" -- Nick Saban now is he highest paid college football coach in America -- and Alabama won the National Championship this year. You might say that Saban is in "football heaven" -- because he KNEW that he could do the job. Just as I and many other Christian believers KNOW that we have eternal life in Jesus Christ.

So, VP, please tell my why you insist upon following religious leaders who, when asked, "Are you going to heaven?" -- will answer, "Well, I am not sure. But, I will really try."

If your coach, your leaders, are not sure -- why are you following them? And, to what: victory -- defeat; winning season -- losing season? My Friend, in spiritual matters -- a winning season is eternal life with God; a losing season is eternal life with Satan.

My sincerest desire is that YOU can KNOW that you have a winning season; based upon the "free gift" which Jesus Christ purchased for you and me.

My Friend, you need a Coach who can assure you that YOU CAN WIN! And, that Coach is Jesus Christ! He never has and never will -- lose a game! If you are on His Team; you will never lose either.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 1_-_John_11-25-1
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

You can't lose what you never had in the first place. Salvation is a lifelong process - not a slam-dunk, one-time occurrence. The Scriptures are very clear on this.
It is not a guarantte for all who believe but a wonderful promise for those who remain faithful and endure to the end:


Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Matt. 24:13
He who endures to the end will be saved.

Matt. 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven.


Jesus' finished work on the cross redeems us - but we aren't saved yet because we haven't finished the race.
And how do verses that you use for the "Once saved always saved reconcile with the equally important verses: Matt 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I am not saying that you are wrong- I'm just asking you to try to reconcile the differences, and perhaps you will have a better understanding of where I (and many, many others) are coming from in this "discrepancy".

There are many, many many scriptural passages that indicate that we CAN fall from God's graces. You believe what you want, but I'm happy with my "coach" Jesus Himself. As told to his Apostles, and kept alive in succession of lineage of the Papacy.
I'm not saved- yet.Because I'm not dead yet. The gift is not free. We have to work our whole lives at it.
I hope to complete my work on earth and die in Christ's friendship. I do my best, and adore Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, recieve Eucharist, atone for my sins, and seek reconcilation as often as possible.
Thank you for your concern, but you will not convince me of this concept. But please, don't worry about me- I'm good! And I am doing my best to do God's will, and to stay in His favor.
Last edited by Former Member
Hi VP,

With all that said -- do you KNOW you are going to heaven or not?

Are YOU going to spend eternity in the presence of God?

Or, are you going to spend eternity NOT in the presence of God?

And, if you are NOT eternally in the presence of God; where are you?

What does the Bible tell you about this?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 0_-_CROSS-BIBLE_SAID-IT-1c
Bill,
Apparently, if someone wants to be wrong bad enough, no amount of scripture will change his mind. I feel that the time for conversation has ended. Now, all we can do is pray for divine intervention. By that I mean we pray to God, directly to God, in Jesus' name. No other name but the name of Jesus is worthy of glory, honor and power.
Bill, it is Maundy Thursday. Give yourself a wee break so we can prepare ourselves for Friday solemnities and then Saturday evening New Fire and Vigil Mass.

This is a time for meditation not you harping on and on and on without cease the same old song you have been. Come on, the horse is dead, please stop beating it. I think you ought be beating your chest in contrition, instead.
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Bill, it is Maundy Thursday. Give yourself a wee break so we can prepare ourselves for Friday solemnities and then Saturday evening New Fire and Vigil Mass.

This is a time for meditation not you harping on and on and on without cease the same old song you have been. Come on, the horse is dead, please stop beating it. I think you ought be beating your chest in contrition, instead.


Hello, Mr. Kettle. Have you met Mr. Pot? Talk about harping. If my intro alludes you, it seems you are guilty of the same thing you accuse Bill of doing. Why don't YOU give YOURSELF a break?

No representation is made that the quality of sarcasm in this post is greater than the quality of sarcasm by any other contributor to the Times Daily Forum.
Well, I wasn't going to reply- I am trying very hard to stay focused and prepare for the solemnities of Good Friday. However, while I am away, please consider this- I returned scripture that supports my stance, and neither of you have commented on it. You just reverted back to the same old stuff- even when presented with scripture to firmly back it up. You just ignore it? There is no conflict in the scriptures: each word, each verse compliments the next. However, how can you refute that we CAN fall out of friendship? We can sin, and turn our back on the Lord.
It's just not as black and white as the "one time salvation, good to go", in my opinion. our behavior on this earth, our relationship with God, our treatment of our lesser breathern: GOD SEES AND JUDGES ALL THESE THINGS.
God will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. We know this.
It doesn't say to "swing by and pick up those who say they have been saved".
As for your prayers, thanks. But no amount of prayer from anyone will change my heart away from my church. I will be praying with earnst to keep strong my faith in the Eucharist, the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints and life everlasting, AMEN! I would suggest that your prayers for divine intervention be focused and directed to those who do not yet KNOW of Jesus, and are not Christians. Not on Christians who worship/believe differently from you.
. And that Jesus calls each of us by name, and will ask for an account of our lives here on earth.
This debate, these 2 philosophies are older than dirt. We are not likely to solve it here. So, let's move on. There are volumes of books on the topic. No man can say with certainty which one has it "right". Just do your best, with the knowledge and insight that you are given by the Grace of God. Leave the rest up to the Divine Mercy that is Jesus Christ.
Last edited by Former Member
quote:
With all that said -- do you KNOW you are going to heaven or not?



I know my ultimate destination as much as I CAN know anything, Bill. The question is, WHO ARE YOU TO ATTEMPT TO INSTILL DOUBT IN A FELLOW BELIEVER??

I do "know" as much as I can know that I do not want to spend eternity with hateful people like you. Who the hell are you to question a fellow believer's faith? What gives you the audacity to even think you have a answers that are not available to all believers?

I hope there is not a spot in hell with your name on it. VP does not deserve your vehemence.
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Bill, it is Maundy Thursday. Give yourself a wee break so we can prepare ourselves for Friday solemnities and then Saturday evening New Fire and Vigil Mass.

This is a time for meditation not you harping on and on and on without cease the same old song you have been. Come on, the horse is dead, please stop beating it. I think you ought be beating your chest in contrition, instead.

Hi Neal,

I sincerely pray that you have a wonderful Easter -- and that you sing for joy because HE IS ALIVE! -- that He rose from the grave -- and that He is sitting at the right hand of the Father, right now, telling Him that Neal and Bill are covered by His blood.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed Easter,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Alive_Forevermore
quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
With all that said -- do you KNOW you are going to heaven or not?

I know my ultimate destination as much as I CAN know anything, Bill. The question is, WHO ARE YOU TO ATTEMPT TO INSTILL DOUBT IN A FELLOW BELIEVER?? I do "know" as much as I can know that I do not want to spend eternity with hateful people like you. Who the hell are you to question a fellow believer's faith? What gives you the audacity to even think you have a answers that are not available to all believers? I hope there is not a spot in hell with your name on it. VP does not deserve your vehemence.

Hi Sofa,

You do not seem to be able to directly answer the question: "Do you KNOW that you are going to heaven?"

You give a wishy-washy reply, "I know my ultimate destination as much as I CAN know anything, Bill."

In John 6:47, Jesus tells us, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life. "

Is this statement true or not?

Jesus tells us, in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world (Bill, Sofa, VP, Tomme, everyone), that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him SHALL NOT perish, but HAVE eternal life."

Is this statement true or not?

If these two promises given to us directly from Jesus Christ are not true -- then, He has lied to us.

In these Scripture verses, Jesus tells us that, if YOU are a true believer, if YOU are born again, if YOU are truly a Christ Follower, a Christian believer -- YOU can KNOW, beyond all doubt -- that YOU are saved and will spend eternity with God.

Sofa, do you KNOW you are saved and WILL spend eternity with God?

By the way, I extend this same question to my Friend, VP.

And, yes! I can say, without any doubt, my Lord and Savior has told me that I HAVE eternal life -- and, I believe Him!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 0_-_CROSS-BIBLE_SAID-IT-1c
quote:
By the way, I extend this same question to my Friend, VP.


Do you read responses? I think I have answered this question a few times. You ignore the scripture that I included which clearly and completely answer your question.
You are free to believe whatever the heck you want- but what you cannot do is speak with any authority against other Christians who believe differently from you. THAT IS DIVISIVE IN THE FAMILY OF GOD.
Since you obviously didn't read my response/answer, here it is again.


You can't lose what you never had in the first place. Salvation is a lifelong process - not a slam-dunk, one-time occurrence. The Scriptures are very clear on this.
It is not a guarantte for all who believe but a wonderful promise for those who remain faithful and endure to the end:


Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Matt. 24:13
He who endures to the end will be saved.

Matt. 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven.


Jesus' finished work on the cross redeems us - but we aren't saved yet because we haven't finished the race.
And how do verses that you use for the "Once saved always saved reconcile with the equally important verses: Matt 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I am not saying that you are wrong- I'm just asking you to try to reconcile the differences, and perhaps you will have a better understanding of where I (and many, many others) are coming from in this "discrepancy".

There are many, many many scriptural passages that indicate that we CAN fall from God's graces. You believe what you want, but I'm happy with my "coach" Jesus Himself. As told to his Apostles, and kept alive in succession of lineage of the Papacy.
I'm not saved- yet.Because I'm not dead yet. The gift is not free. We have to work our whole lives at it.
I hope to complete my work on earth and die in Christ's friendship. I do my best, and adore Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, recieve Eucharist, atone for my sins, and seek reconcilation as often as possible.
Thank you for your concern, but you will not convince me of this concept. But please, don't worry about me- I'm good! And I am doing my best to do God's will, and to stay in His favor
Hi VP,

With ALL that said -- what you are really saying is that you DO NOT believe Jesus Christ when He tells us, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life."

If someone were to walk up to you and hand you a "free gift" of $1,000,000 and told you that you can HAVE this money -- is he saying that, someday, if you are really nice -- you MAY have this $1,000,000 -- or that you can HAVE it right now, today?

Boy, if you were homeless, I would have to feel really sorry for you. For, no matter how often someone wants to help you by giving you a "free gift" -- you would refuse it and say that you have to wait until you can earn what this person wants to GIVE you right now.

VP, what does HAS and HAVE mean to you? Does this mean MAYBE, or SOME DAY? No, when Jesus Christ tells me that I HAVE eternal life -- I believe Him. Why can't you?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 0_-_CROSS-BIBLE_SAID-IT-1c

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×