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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion I began titled "An Open Letter From The Son Of Madalyn Murray O'Hair" -- our new Forum Friend, A. Robustus, has responded. Before I respond to his post, let me take a moment and say, "Welcome back, Crusty. I did not even know you were gone." We are pleased to have your civil comments back on the Religion Forum.

That said, let's look at what our Friend has posted. "First off, unless you can actually PROVE that ~1800 biblical prophecies have been fulfilled, it is just an empty grandiose statement. Similar to: Over 1800 unicorns -- virtually all of them pink -- power my lawnmower."

Being gone, for however long that was -- has not improved your ability of expression.

Then, he tells me, "Second, even if I were to agree with the claim (I don't and have proof) that there are 1800+ biblical prophesies, of which virtually all of them have been fulfilled... "virtually" just doesn't cut it when considering the source is the all-knowing creator of everything."

I would sincerely like to see this "proof" you have that there are NOT over 1800 Bible prophecies, most which have been fulfilled. Anyone can spout empty claims -- as our old Friend, Crusty, was was very adept at proving. So, my Friend, show us the meat!

Next, you declare, "A claim of high accuracy is not proof of anything. Even a 100% accuracy of biblical prophesy is not PROOF of the actual existence of yours or any gods or the validity of the rest of the text in the Bible. It would just be proof of the impressive predictive statements in a book."

My Friend, do you have ANY idea how ludicrous that statement is -- or is this just another "Let's throw it against the wall and see if it sticks" comment? Can you show us ANY book of prophecy in which ALL (more that one), 100% of the prophecies, have been fulfilled and you can prove this? Where can we find such a book? Of course, the only answer is: The Bible!

There are over 300 prophecies about Jesus Christ in the Bible. All except His return have been fulfilled -- and proven by both Biblical and secular sources.

To give you an idea of how amazing this is, let's look at an actual exercise done in a college Statistics class:

Professor emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has calculated the probability of any "one man" fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different classes, representing some 600 college students.

These classes took only 8 of the 300+ prophecies concerning Jesus Christ -- only eight. After examining the eight different prophecies, the classes conservatively estimated that the chance of any "one man" fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 10^17. That is the number 1 in 10 to the 17th power -- 1 followed by 17 zeroes: 100,000,000,000,000,000

I believe we can all agree that this is a very large number, Yet, that is the probability of any "one man" fulfilling only these eight prophecies.

To bring this more into focus with our thinking -- suppose we take 10^17 silver dollars and lay them all over the state of Texas. That would cover the complete state of Texas two feet deep in silver dollars -- ALL of Texas. Now, before distributing these silver dollars across the state of Texas, we mark one, just one, of these silver dollars and bury it somewhere in the state of Texas in this two foot deep layer of silver dollars.

Now, we blindfold a person and tell him/her to travel as far as he/she wishes, in any direction, for as long as he/she wants. BUT, he/she must pick up ONLY ONE silver dollar -- anywhere in the state of Texas -- and have this be the ONE marked silver dollar. What are the chances he/she could find and pick up that ONE marked silver dollar?

Those are the same chances, the same probability, that the prophets had of writing those "eight prophecies" and having them ALL come true, be fulfilled, in any "one man" -- from their day to the present time. Unless those prophecies were from God.

This probability exercise only included eight prophecies about Jesus Christ – 10^17 (1 followed by 17 zeroes)

48 prophecies being fulfilled in one person is the incredible number 10^157. (1 followed by 157 zeroes)

300 prophecies: A number too large to even imagine.

Yet, that is what HAS happened! Jesus Christ HAS fulfilled those 300 prophecies with the exception of His imminent return.

Now, consider the over 1800 prophecies found in the Bible; the large number of them fulfilled already -- proven by Biblical and secular sources -- and tell me this does not prove the validity of the Bible and the presence of the only source which could make this happen: GOD!

Finally, my Friend, you outdo even yourself, when you declare, "BTW, here's one simple to understand and incorrect Bible foretelling and it's not from some two-bit disciple or prophet, but from the LORD God himself. You don't even have to look deep to find it either.

It's right inside the front cover, in Genesis: God tells Adam that he will die on the day that he eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, yet Adam eats from the tree and lives for another 930 years. (Genesis 2:17 & 5:5)

Based on this alone, your god is either a liar; doesn't know the future; doesn't control life or death; doesn't know what He's talking about; is bluffing; made a mistake and changed His mind (a perfect being should have no reason to repent); is not perfect; or all of the above."


My Friend, if you had spent a wee more time studying God's Word -- instead of trying to disprove and defame it; you would know the simple answer to your question. Let's examine those Scripture passages:

Genesis 2:16-17, "The LORD God commanded the man, saying, 'From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.'"

Genesis 5:5, "So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died."

Adam and Eve were created to live eternally. At the Creation, death, neither physical nor spiritual, existed. Man and animal, both originally herbivores, were not created to die physically.

Yet, Adam was told that if he disobeyed God; he would die. What did this mean? When Adam disobeyed God; this brought both physical and spiritual death into all the world. Until then, neither had existed in the world.

His disobedience brought immediate spiritual death. Before his disobedience, we are told that Adam walked with God in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:8); but once Adam had disobeyed God, Adam tried to hide from God. And, to this day, many people still try to hide from God.

Many do this by trying to allegorize all Scripture, making the Word of God only a good guidebook for living; but, not the inspired, inerrant, literal Word of God.

Many other do this by trying to change the meaning of His Scripture to a meaning which will justify their worldly desires and lifestyles. Others try to hide from God by denying that He even exists.

However, just as Adam could not hide from God; neither can we (Jeremiah 23:24).

So, when Adam sinned by disobeying God; the spiritual connection, that intimate link between man and God was broken. Man was separated from God. Sin had separated man from his God. This spiritual death was immediate.

The physical death, which was not supposed to happen, also began at that moment -- but, was allowed to happen through the newly Adam birthed curse upon man -- the slow deterioration of his body. From the moment we are born; we begin the process of dying. That is the curse of physical death brought upon all living creatures, man and animal, by Adam's sin of disobedience.

I pray that I have answered your questions sufficiently. If not, let's continue to dialogue; for through you and your comments/questions, together we can share the Word of God with all our Forum Friends.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to my Forum Friends,


Why do you keep assuming you have friends here? all i've seen are sycophantic sheeple or adversaries.

quote:

In the discussion I began titled "An Open Letter From The Son Of Madalyn Murray O'Hair" -- our new Forum Friend, A. Robustus, has responded. Before I respond to his post, let me take a moment and say, "Welcome back, Crusty. I did not even know you were gone." We are pleased to have your civil comments back on the Religion Forum.

That said, let's look at what our Friend has posted. "First off, unless you can actually PROVE that ~1800 biblical prophecies have been fulfilled, it is just an empty grandiose statement. Similar to: Over 1800 unicorns -- virtually all of them pink -- power my lawnmower."


I still wish to know where i can buy a pink unicorn powered lawnmower.

quote:

Being gone, for however long that was -- has not improved your ability of expression.

Then, he tells me, "Second, even if I were to agree with the claim (I don't and have proof) that there are 1800+ biblical prophesies, of which virtually all of them have been fulfilled... "virtually" just doesn't cut it when considering the source is the all-knowing creator of everything."

I would sincerely like to see this "proof" you have that there are NOT over 1800 Bible prophecies, most which have been fulfilled. Anyone can spout empty claims -- as our old Friend, Crusty, was was very adept at proving. So, my Friend, show us the meat!

Next, you declare, "A claim of high accuracy is not proof of anything. Even a 100% accuracy of biblical prophesy is not PROOF of the actual existence of yours or any gods or the validity of the rest of the text in the Bible. It would just be proof of the impressive predictive statements in a book."

My Friend, do you have ANY idea how ludicrous that statement is -- or is this just another "Let's throw it against the wall and see if it sticks" comment? Can you show us ANY book of prophecy in which ALL (more that one), 100% of the prophecies, have been fulfilled and you can prove this? Where can we find such a book? Of course, the only answer is: The Bible!


Ahh.. again, you use the bible to prove the bible.
Invalid source of proof. argument regected.

quote:



There are over 300 prophecies about Jesus Christ in the Bible. All except His return have been fulfilled -- and proven by both Biblical and secular sources.

To give you an idea of how amazing this is, let's look at an actual exercise done in a college Statistics class:

Professor emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has calculated the probability of any "one man" fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different classes, representing some 600 college students.

These classes took only 8 of the 300+ prophecies concerning Jesus Christ -- only eight. After examining the eight different prophecies, the classes conservatively estimated that the chance of any "one man" fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 10^17. That is the number 1 in 10 to the 17th power -- 1 followed by 17 zeroes: 100,000,000,000,000,000

I believe we can all agree that this is a very large number,



it is, indeed, a large number. is there any factual basis for this number, or was someone just blowin made up math out their butts?
peter stoner calculated the pobability. has anyone else corraborated these numbers? does anyone back him up with independant research?
or, do they prove his numbers by quoteing his numbers?


quote:

Yet, that is what HAS happened! Jesus Christ HAS fulfilled those 300 prophecies with the exception of His imminent return.

Now, consider the over 1800 prophecies found in the Bible; the large number of them fulfilled already -- proven by Biblical and secular sources -- and tell me this does not prove the validity of the Bible and the presence of the only source which could make this happen: GOD!


OK. list me the 1800 that were fullfilled, without using the bible.
Again i maintain that using the book that makes the prophecy to prove that the prophecy was fullfilled is not acceptable.
you can't use nostradamus to prove that nostradamus was right. that's just absurd.
this would be like a Muslim telling you 'the Qu'Ran says there is no God but God, and Mohammed was his prophet, so that proves that Allah is God and you are wrong."
can you least understand my reasoning behind this? why i won't accept the bible as proof for your words? the logic behind it?


quote:

It's right inside the front cover, in Genesis: God tells Adam that he will die on the day that he eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, yet Adam eats from the tree and lives for another 930 years. (Genesis 2:17 & 5:5)

Based on this alone, your god is either a liar; doesn't know the future; doesn't control life or death; doesn't know what He's talking about; is bluffing; made a mistake and changed His mind (a perfect being should have no reason to repent); is not perfect; or all of the above."[/color]

[QUOTE]Let's examine those Scripture passages:


let's not. i thought you've said the bible was the literal living word of god?
the literal living word of god doesn't need interpretation. of any variety. from any one.
so, this means either god was making hollow threats, changed his mind, or that it was made up.

quote:

The physical death, which was not supposed to happen, also began at that moment -- but, was allowed to happen through the newly Adam birthed curse upon man -- the slow deterioration of his body. From the moment we are born; we begin the process of dying. That is the curse of physical death brought upon all living creatures, man and animal, by Adam's sin of disobedience.


Bull. Adam was framed.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to my Forum Friends,

Why do you keep assuming you have friends here? all i've seen are sycophantic sheeple or adversaries.

Well, my Friend,

And, yes, I call even YOU my Friend. You obviously do not share this feeling; but, that is not a problem.

You see, we Christian believers have an advantage over you, my agnostic--turned atheist--turned secular humanist--back to atheist again--and, now, just confused, Friend.

We can share Christian love with even the most despicable people and truly care about them. So, for now, you are safe in our love.

However, the most important step in to be safe in the arms of Jesus Christ. That is a step you seem to be far from for now. But, we will keep praying for you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to my Forum Friends,

Why do you keep assuming you have friends here? all i've seen are sycophantic sheeple or adversaries.

Well, my Friend,

And, yes, I call even YOU my Friend. You obviously do not share this feeling; but, that is not a problem.

You see, we Christian believers have an advantage over you, my agnostic--turned atheist--turned secular humanist--back to atheist again--and, now, just confused, Friend.

We can share Christian love with even the most despicable people and truly care about them. So, for now, you are safe in our love.

However, the most important step in to be safe in the arms of Jesus Christ. That is a step you seem to be far from for now. But, we will keep praying for you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Make that blindly led sheep believer >> athiest >> agnostic >> believer.

i don't even know what a secular humanist is, and i don't much care. While i don't have all the answers it doesn't mean i'm confused. it just means i'm not a self deluded arrogant git, and still waiting for god to make things clear to me.

Safe in your love? dude.. back off. i'm married. that's seriously creepy. i'm not interested in Manlove.

I'm not sure if you cna.. accept this, Bill. i'm not sure if you can comprehend this.
but i'll do my best.

I don't care what it seems like to you. Christ knows my heart, and He is in charge of my soul.
You don't enter into the equation. I don't have to be your friend to be saved.
You can call me 'friend' all you like. You can also call me a marmoset, but just because you say it doesn't make it true.
I don't need to be your friend to know Christ.


the part that interests me the most is: have you noticed that bill keeps saying' we' and 'our' and so on.
so how does he have the authority to speak for anyone but himself?
Is he the leader of the Collective?
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:

You can call me 'friend' all you like. You can also call me a marmoset, but just because you say it doesn't make it true.
I don't need to be your friend to know Christ.




My sentiments exactly. I don't care how many times Bill calls a wombat a waffle, it's still going to bite him if he tries to put butter and syrup on it.
quote:
Originally posted by Road Puppy:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:

You can call me 'friend' all you like. You can also call me a marmoset, but just because you say it doesn't make it true.
I don't need to be your friend to know Christ.




My sentiments exactly. I don't care how many times Bill calls a wombat a waffle, it's still going to bite him if he tries to put butter and syrup on it.


this made me LOL. i'm stealing it. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to my Forum Friends,

Why do you keep assuming you have friends here? all i've seen are sycophantic sheeple or adversaries.

Well, my Friend,

And, yes, I call even YOU my Friend. You obviously do not share this feeling; but, that is not a problem.

You see, we Christian believers have an advantage over you, my agnostic--turned atheist--turned secular humanist--back to atheist again--and, now, just confused, Friend.

We can share Christian love with even the most despicable people and truly care about them. So, for now, you are safe in our love.

However, the most important step in to be safe in the arms of Jesus Christ. That is a step you seem to be far from for now. But, we will keep praying for you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Make that blindly led sheep believer >> athiest >> agnostic >> believer. i don't even know what a secular humanist is, and i don't much care. While i don't have all the answers it doesn't mean i'm confused. it just means i'm not a self deluded arrogant git, and still waiting for god to make things clear to me.

Safe in your love? dude.. back off. i'm married. that's seriously creepy. i'm not interested in Manlove.

I'm not sure if you cna.. accept this, Bill. i'm not sure if you can comprehend this.
but i'll do my best.

I don't care what it seems like to you. Christ knows my heart, and He is in charge of my soul.
You don't enter into the equation. I don't have to be your friend to be saved. You can call me 'friend' all you like. You can also call me a marmoset, but just because you say it doesn't make it true. I don't need to be your friend to know Christ. the part that interests me the most is: have you noticed that bill keeps saying' we' and 'our' and so on. so how does he have the authority to speak for anyone but himself? Is he the leader of the Collective?

Hi Nagel,

Interesting. You say you are a Christian believer -- but, you have no concept of Christian love. Do you not have "fellowship" in the church you attend? Or, do you not attend any church?

In my church, and all that I visit -- we are big on Christian love. We hug one another; we greet on another with Christian love -- and we have fun worshiping together.

If you do attend a church -- from you attitude -- it must be a very cold, stiff, mourning type of environment. Too bad; for our God is a God of love.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Nagel,

Interesting. You say you are a Christian believer -- but, you have no concept of Christian love. Do you not have "fellowship" in the church you attend? Or, do you not attend any church?

In my church, and all that I visit -- we are big on Christian love. We hug one another; we greet on another with Christian love -- and we have fun worshiping together.

If you do attend a church -- from you attitude -- it must be a very cold, stiff, mourning type of environment. Too bad; for our God is a God of love.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


i don't currently have a regular church.
i have been to many. many many. of many denominations. over many years i've been at least once to the majority of local churches, or at least one of their type. (i admit, there are some i've avoided because i know people who go there and i find them to be horrible people.)
so far, i've found no where that offered real 'fellowship', execpt St. Joseph's many many years ago when i was married to a girl who was raised catholic. they genuinly seemed warm and friendly and happy i was there.
ther rest plastered on that fake saccherin syrup smile and started talking like a high school football coach
" Hey there buddy! how tha heck are ya! we sure are glad ya decided to come visit us today! are ya shoppin for a new home in christ ! or are ya just passin through town!"
and their poor wives behind them, sounding and acting like minnie mouse on zoloft
" ohh geee, wee sure aree glad to see you here, honey.. are ya'll enjoyin your selfs?"

fake fake fake.
maybe you enjoy it - maybe you're idea of loving christian fellowship is a combonation of leave it to beaver and the stepford wives, but mine isn't.

i never ever pretend to be something i'm not, and because of this i have very low tollerance for people trying to blow sunshine up my butt to that i'll like them.
i care about substance, not appearance. i don't care about what something LOOKS like, i'm far more interested in what it IS.
so when some guy i don't shows up like he's my best friend, he goes on my " fullash*t' list.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Nagel,

Just thinking about your situation and I am reminded of an old saying:

IF LOVE IS A PAIN IN THE BUTT - MAYBE "YOU" ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG!

I guess the same could apply to Christian fellowship.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


sooooo..
because i don't like artificial affectations, i'm wrong?

ok. so you approve of people faking it to gain approval?
did you make a mistake, or did we just learn something about your church?

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