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Hi to my Forum Friends,

This week, a Friend asked me how do I possibly couple, or associate, the Old Testament teachings about homosexuality with those of the New Testament. Doesn't the Bible tell us that Jesus came to bring us a "new covenant"? So, how can a Christian look at the harsh Old Testament laws on homosexuality, or any sin, as being applicable to the New Testament church?

That is a good question. However there is no conflict between the teaching of the Old Testament and the teaching of the New Testament on homosexuality or any other sin.

Matthew 22:36-40, "'Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?' And He said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.""

In other words, Jesus is telling the scribe that His teachings do not set aside the Law and the Prophets -- but, instead includes them in all His teaching. He has just taken them one step further and encompassed them in grace.

First, let's consider the Ten Commandments and the Law given by God through Moses to the people of Israel. What kept the people honest before the Law? Romans 5:13 tells us, "For until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is not law." This makes sense. If you are stopped for driving sixty miles an hour where there is no speed limit; how can you be held accountable? Yet, once the authorities establish a speed limit for that area; you are liable for a fine if caught speeding.

So, how were the people, even the Gentiles, held accountable before God gave Moses the Law?

Romans 2:14-16, "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."

The same would apply to Jews who did not yet have the Law. This period which began when God gave the Law to the Israelites until Jesus came was called the Dispensation of Law, or era of the Law. The Law could not save anyone. We are told in Romans 3:20, "Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

So, what was the purpose of the Law? The Law was given to make the people aware of their sins; just as the speed limit laws make us aware of our speed limits and our violations of those limits.

Then, how could people be saved if not by the Law?

Romans 3:21, "But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested (in Jesus Christ), being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

If the Law did not save them; how were the people of the Old Testament get saved? By their faith in the coming Messiah. Did they go to heaven when they died? No, they went to the Bosom of Abraham (Luke 16) to await the day when their Messiah, Jesus Christ, would come and lead them into heaven (Ephesians 4:8). He did this during the three days He was in Hades.

Jesus Christ came as the Incarnate God, died on the cross, was resurrected, and ascended into heaven to bring us the Dispensation of Grace -- so that, by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, we might be saved.

"Okay, Bill, what does all of this have to do with homosexuality?" I was beginning to wonder if you would ever ask.

Well, in Leviticus 18:22, God taught us, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination" and in Leviticus 20:13, God taught us, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them."

Does this mean that to live by the Bible we should put all homosexuals and all who sin to death?

No, for Jesus came and brought the Dispensation of Grace; whereby now we are still just as liable for our sins as were the Old Testament people -- it is just that now we have moved into a new dispensation, or covenant, where death is not required. But, repentance, and punishment for refusing to repent, is still required of us.

Let's make an analogy. When your children were five or six years old; if they did something wrong and lied to you about it -- you would take the switch to them -- or you would apply the "hand of justice" to the "seat of knowledge of good and evil."

Yet, when your children become teenagers, you lay aside the switch and the application of the hand -- and you apply a different mode of repentance; you ground them or you take away their car keys. This is your new covenant with your children. Jesus Christ brought us a new covenant with our heavenly Father, God.

But, even though we are in the new covenant, or the New Testament church -- to God, the sin of homosexuality is still an abomination (Leviticus 18:22), it is still a detestable act (Leviticus 20:13) -- and in the New Testament, in the new covenant or dispensation of grace -- God again reaffirms His feelings on the homosexual lifestyle when He tells us, in Romans 1:26-27, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."

So, does God hate the homosexual? No. God loves the homosexual, just as you love your child. But, just as you would hate to see your child live a life which you know is detrimental to their physical and spiritual health -- God hates to see His creation living in a lifestyle which He knows is detrimental to their physical and spiritual health. God loves the sinner; but He hates the sinful lifestyle.

Then, how does a homosexual become a Christian believer? The same way anyone becomes a Christian believer -- by, turning from our sinful, worldly lifestyle and turning to follow Jesus Christ. We do a 180 degree turn from the way we are walking -- and we turn to walk the other way, beside Jesus Christ.

And, being followers of Jesus Christ, Christians, we, too, are not to hate the homosexual. But, we must hate the homosexual lifestyle -- for it is in opposition to the teachings of God's Word, the Bible. Any teaching, any lifestyle, any sin, which opposes God's Word should be anathema, an abomination, in our souls, in our hearts, in our thinking, in our mouths -- in the way we live.

I pray that this gives everyone a better understanding of how God and we Christians view sin -- all sin, including the sin of homosexuality.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!

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Methinks his mother was listening to a little too much Judy Garland while he was in utero, myself.
I doubt the party boys in Fort Lauderdale obsess as much about gay sex as does he!
But having a verse for everything under the sun from why Pappy McCain is a second coming of Ronald Raygun to water pollution to dinosaur and human tracks side by side, I am sure that his memory, a true thing worth of remark, to be sure, will let us know ad nauseum about why he is not obsessed with boys playing house or actually forming long term lasting loving relationships.
I think pig meat is right up there as an "abomination" as well as "mixing fibers" and "unfringed garments" and other tribal taboos. I guess his old sarge in boot camp was a pretty hot number with those rippling muscles and prancing around in his drawers at 2 a.m. reading the riot act to the lads in Billy's unit. Did he have any hot tattoos, I wonder? That ole sarge was a memory to be etched forever, evidently, upon young Billy's mind . . . we shan't even dare to think of the strapping lads in the shower alongside him. Ooh, la la, chacun a son gout, as the French say.
I posted this in the discussion in Feedback, Bill. I'll post it here, too. Maybe you can give me an answer to my question.

Homophobic fundamentalists often quote two verses that seem to justify their hate of gay people. These two verses, both of which appear in the book of Leviticus, are:

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." (Leviticus 18:22)

and . . .

"If a man lie with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."(Leviticus 20:13)

Let's back up a bit in Leviticus, shall we?

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

Imagine what would happen today if we killed every child who was disrespectful to his parents. And you are still your mama and daddy's child even after you are grown. Fundamentalists explain this verse away, saying that it is part of the Old Levitical Holiness Code and is not meant to be taken literally. Really? Not to be taken literally? Sounds pretty literal to me. The above verse is just 3 verses before Leviticus 20:13, one of the favorite anti-gay scriptures which, of course, they do choose to apply literally.

Fundamentalists change their entire methodology of scriptural interpretation when it suits their purpose, even when dealing with verses that are a just couple of sentences away from each other.

"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Leviticus 20:18)

Imagine what would happen today if we deported every man and woman who had ever had sex together while the woman was having her period. Fundamentalists decline the opportunity to take this verse literally, which is merely 5 verses after Leviticus 20:13. If I had a nickel for every time I have heard a guy say "if you can drive through mud, you can..." well - you've all heard the saying... Anyone who has uttered that should be cut off from the people. Sinners! Abominations!

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)

Did you ever wonder where racist, uneducated people got the idea that slaves were just property and not people? Directly from the above verse, which fundamentalists do not, of course, take literally. Or maybe they do. Jetboy, where do you buy your slaves?


"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)

Bible-thumping fundamentalists never preach against the evils of shaving, as they do not take this verse literally for our day. Of course, they most certainly would do so if they had a personal bias against shaving, but apparently, they do not. Or, since I haven't seen our resident fundamentalists in person, maybe they do look like this:


"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." (Leviticus 19:19)

Farmers in this country almost always grow more than one kind of crop in their fields. In fact, they often must do so for ecological reasons. Fundamentalists do not apply this verse literally. If they were to preach against farmers, there would be an uproar, and rightfully so.

Fundamentalists also ignore the Biblical command to not wear clothes that have two different kinds of material. The shirts that many fundamentalists are often seen wearing are a cotton/polyester blend, the most common in the United States of America. They may be "Bible believing" Christians, but this is yet another verse that they don't believe should be applied to today. Seriously, God has spoken about the poly-wool blend socks.

Fundamentalists also like to use Leviticus 18:22 to justify their anti-gay prejudice. That verse says, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." Perhaps you have heard some people refer to gay people as an "abomination." They get the idea directly from Leviticus 18:22. But did you know that the Bible calls other things an abomination as well?

* The Bible says that eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination:

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)

"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)

"Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:12)

Stay away from Captain D's, Newbern's, anywhere with shrimp, lobster, catfish, and oysters. They are an abomination to you! And you put them in your mouth. For the love of Pete, no one is asking you to put a gay person in your mouth (well, no one on this thread) so what is the deal? Can't you take your hate and your holier-than thou attitude to Red Lobster or Joe's Crab Shack and leave the gay folks alone for a while?
Seven deadly sins are as follows:

1.Lust
2.Gluttony
3.Greed
4.Sloth (laziness)
5.Wrath
6.Envy
7.Pride (self righteousness would be an example of pride)

*Notice that lust is only one of the seven deadly sins. It does seem to be the most fascinating to many people.

Worry about your own sins, pray for those you feel are doing wrong and remember that YOUR sin is no different than anyone elses. MYOB, or tell it to God.
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
Gluttony seems to be a sin that Christians like to ignore.
Why?
And what does the bible say about it?


*reply is in general for us all, and not personally directed at you, miamizsun*

Philippians 3:18-19 "...they are enemies of the cross of Christ whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite."

ANY sin causes us to be in conflict with God. He makes a way of escape from committing sin, but our flesh does not comply with our spirit, and daily we fail Him. the Christian has the opportunity to repent (turn away from) of his sin, and be continually cleansed by the Blood of Jesus, pure in God's sight. but any Christian that continues in his sin, ANY sin, must pay the consequences of that sin.

the physical consequences of gluttony would be various ailments caused by obesity, and a shorter life span. spiritual consequences would be eternal life in torment, for putting any 'god' above Almighty God.
and ANYthing that has power over you, becomes your 'god'.

sin is sin to God. He hates gluttony, but not the glutton, homosexuality but not the homosexual, lying but not the liar, etc. gluttony, homosexuality, lying, stealing, fornication, adultery, coveting, etc, are all the SAME to God. and ANY sin will cost you eternity with Him.

we ALL sin and come short of His Glory, every day. that's why we are to continually strive to be like Him, thus shedding our desire for sinful things. the more we know and love Him, the more we want to please Him, and the more we become like Him.

if you love Him, you will want to spend eternity with Him. if not, you would have no reason to want to be with Him in Heaven. if His 'sin' is not considered sin to you (anyone), i pray you find the Truth. if not, then carry on till He requires you to bow before Him, and confess that He is God. it will be an awesome moment to see, but too late for those who refused to follow Him before judgement.

that is why we need to continually encourage one another, and help each other up when we fall. but NEVER condone sin, or accept it, just to remain friendly with the 'world'.
quote:
Originally posted by TheNightCrow:
Wasn't it Jesus who warned against judging others?



Yes. But He also said to TEST the spirits. Now, most of the "homophobic fundamentalists" who catch so much venemous spewtem from other posters, do not hate gays. They hate their lifestyle. God Himself does not hate gays. Homosexuality is an abomination just as murder,incest, coveting, lying, cheating, stealing and all the rest. Homosexuality has the most devastating effect on the family of any of the other sins. God HATES ALL SIN, but He loves the sinner so much that He sent His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON to die for them just as He did for me.
It's that same old Fundamentalist harping on the "sin" of homosexuality. However, if peoples' sexual orientation is determined by biological factors, it's not as if they are acting totally free. As a matter of fact, each particular case of a person's sexual orientation (or lack of it) might be properly considered part of God's plan. Whatever God is like, I somehow don't see her as petty.
quote:
Originally posted by idamann:
Homosexuality has the most devastating effect on the family of any of the other sins.


Sweetie, I have many gay friends and at least three family members who are gay. Everyone is happy and functional.

I have worked in HHS for over 20 years. I can, from personal career experience, tell you without hesitation that your unqualified remark is not true. There are many more devastating "sins" which effect the family worse than the 2.3% -5% of homosexuals in the United States. Have a look at alcoholism, drug abuse, absentee parents, physical abuse, etc. This is just your personal opinion, based on bias. It is nasty pride at its very worst.

*Pride is a sin.
Hi to all,

My, my, my -- but the hen house is all aflutter tonight. There must be a fox in the area. TSC, if you would have taken just a moment to read what I originally posted -- before you posted your response -- you would have found that I have already answered your questions. There I tell you that sin is still sin to God, regardless of whether we look at Old Testament sins or New Testament sins; only now God has put us under the covenant of grace. Do you remember the verse: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians
2:8-9)?

This tells us that a person is saved ONLY by grace through faith in Jesus Christ -- PLUS no other works. If a person truly gets saved; the good works will follow. However, no one is saved by hugging a bank robber, or a burglar, or a homosexual. And, no one is saved by bashing Christians. No, you can only be saved by grace through faith -- no other way.

So, what did my original post say about this which would answer your questions if you would only have read it?

Does this mean that to live by the Bible we should put all homosexuals, and all who sin, to death?

No, for Jesus came and brought the Dispensation of Grace; whereby now we are still just as liable for our sins as were the Old Testament people -- it is just that now we have moved into a new dispensation, or covenant, where death is not required. But, repentance, and punishment for refusing to repent, is still required of us.

Let's make an analogy. When your children were five or six years old; if they did something wrong and lied to you about it -- you would take the switch to them -- or you would apply the "hand of justice" to the "seat of knowledge of good and evil."

Yet, when your children become teenagers, you lay aside the switch and the application of the hand -- and you apply a different mode of repentance; you ground them or you take away their car keys. This is your new covenant with your children. Jesus Christ brought us a new covenant with our heavenly Father, God.


Of course you can say, "Well, I did not read your post because it was too long." That might work for some others in the hen house; but not you TSC. Your post in response is even longer than mine -- and you admit that you have posted this same one twice on two different Forums.

So, my Friends, if you have an honest question or comment; I will be happy to respond. If you just want to toot your horn; have fun.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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I find it interesting that Bill and others are utterly fascinated with this "sin". This is at least the third time I have seen Bill post on the subject. It seems to me that there is inordinate fascination with the sins of the flesh (lust), and homosexuality in particular. I am going to remind this merry little band that the Bible spends a great deal of time dealing with other sins as well.

Once again the seven deadly sins are:

1.Lust
2.Gluttony
3.Greed
4.Sloth (laziness)
5.Wrath
6.Envy
7.Pride (self righteousness would be an example of pride)

Please note the next time anyone sees Bill (or anyone else) start a thread about laziness, greed, envy, PRIDE (my favorite),wrath (anger) or gluttony. I am dying to see the same fascination manifest itself with the other sins listed above, which are so prevalent, and visible to us every day.
Originally posted by Disappointed:
________________________________________________

However if people's sexual orientation is determined by biological factors, it's not as if they are acting totally free.
________________________________________________

Actually they are. I do believe that sexual orientation is biological but sexual desire, whether homosexual or heterosexual, is not sin. Actually engaging in homosexual sex is sin. Actually engaging in heterosexual sex outside of marriage is sin. It is our choice whether to commit the sin or not.
quote:
Originally posted by alpp:
Originally posted by Disappointed:
________________________________________________However if people's sexual orientation is determined by biological factors, it's not as if they are acting totally free.
________________________________________________

Actually they are. I do believe that sexual orientation is biological but sexual desire, whether homosexual or heterosexual, is not sin. Actually engaging in homosexual sex is sin. Actually engaging in heterosexual sex outside of marriage is sin. It is our choice whether to commit the sin or not.


Sort of like all sin. It is always easy to condemn sins when they are not your own.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to all,

My, my, my -- but the hen house is all aflutter tonight. There must be a fox in the area. TSC, if you would have taken just a moment to read what I originally posted -- before you posted your response -- you would have found that I have already answered your questions. There I tell you that sin is still sin to God, regardless of whether we look at Old Testament sins or New Testament sins; only now God has put us under the covenant of grace. Do you remember the verse: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians
2:8-9)?

This tells us that a person is saved ONLY by grace through faith in Jesus Christ -- PLUS no other works. If a person truly gets saved; the good works will follow. However, no one is saved by hugging a bank robber, or a burglar, or a homosexual. And, no one is saved by bashing Christians. No, you can only be saved by grace through faith -- no other way.

So, what did my original post say about this which would answer your questions if you would only have read it?

Does this mean that to live by the Bible we should put all homosexuals, and all who sin, to death?

No, for Jesus came and brought the Dispensation of Grace; whereby now we are still just as liable for our sins as were the Old Testament people -- it is just that now we have moved into a new dispensation, or covenant, where death is not required. But, repentance, and punishment for refusing to repent, is still required of us.

Let's make an analogy. When your children were five or six years old; if they did something wrong and lied to you about it -- you would take the switch to them -- or you would apply the "hand of justice" to the "seat of knowledge of good and evil."

Yet, when your children become teenagers, you lay aside the switch and the application of the hand -- and you apply a different mode of repentance; you ground them or you take away their car keys. This is your new covenant with your children. Jesus Christ brought us a new covenant with our heavenly Father, God.


Of course you can say, "Well, I did not read your post because it was too long." That might work for some others in the hen house; but not you TSC. Your post in response is even longer than mine -- and you admit that you have posted this same one twice on two different Forums.

So, my Friends, if you have an honest question or comment; I will be happy to respond. If you just want to toot your horn; have fun.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Do you eat shrimp or lobster?
Do you shave your sidburns or trim your beard?
Do you support the slave trade?
Do you wear clothing of two or more fibers?
Do you preach against men having sex with their wives during "that time of the month"?
Do you support death to any who curse their parents?
Do you buy from farms that plant two crops in the same field?
Hi Mean,

This is one time I will have to disagree with you. For the title of this web site: For The Bible Tells Me So -- is false. The Bible does NOT tell us that the homosexual lifestyle is normal; the Bible does NOT tell us that the homosexual lifestyle is an accepted alternate to traditional marriage.

Let's look at the introduction found on this web site:

Through the experiences of five very normal, very Christian, very American families -- including those of former House Majority Leader Richard Gephardt and Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson -- we discover how insightful people of faith handle the realization of having a gay child.

Richard Gephardt, yes, I will agree, by all appearances is a very normal, very Christian, very American family -- one which has had to deal with the liberal secular influence upon their child; an influence which has led this child into the homosexual lifestyle. Does God hate this child, the parents, or the family because this child became a lesbian? Absolutely not. God loves this family and wants to help this family. Should Richard Gephardt disown his daughter because of this? Absolutely not. We love our children regardless of the lifestyle they have chosen. But, we pray for them -- that they will find their way back into the arms of Jesus Christ.

On the other hand, to mix the Gephardt family with Gene Robinson is a farce. Gene Robinson did not have to deal with a homosexual child. Gene Robinson had a wife and children -- and he chose to leave them so that he could live in a homosexual relationship with another man. Yes, that is an abomination in the eyes of God. There is no other way to read the Bible.

But, the biggest abomination is that he is not only still a pastor -- but, he has been made a bishop in a Christian denomination. There is no way that anyone can twist the Bible to make this acceptable. Either a church teaches the Bible -- or the church throws out the Bible. If it throws out the Bible; then what will it teach?

And, take a look at who is behind this film:

1. 2007 Sundance Film Festival
2. Outfest Los Angeles
3. Image Out: The Rochester Gay and Lesbian Film Festival
4. Reel Pride: Fresno Gay and Lesbian Film Festival
5. Tampa international Gay and Lesbian Film Festival

Wow, this is really a surprise. A film trying to convince the world that God and the Bible accepts the homosexual lifestyle as normal -- and it is supported by Gay and Lesbian Film Festival organizations. I'll bet this would even make old Gomer Pyle say, "Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!"

Sorry, Mean, but, I cannot agree with you that this is a good movie. And, I am curious what redeeming value you find in it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by meanasasnake:
Seven deadly sins are as follows:

1.Lust
2.Gluttony
3.Greed
4.Sloth (laziness)
5.Wrath
6.Envy
7.Pride (self righteousness would be an example of pride)

*Notice that lust is only one of the seven deadly sins. It does seem to be the most fascinating to many people.


You must have heard the same sermon I did. Wow!! The seven cardinal sins and their respective fallen angels:
Satan - Anger
Leviatan - Jealousy/Envy
Belphegor - Laziness
Beelzebub - Gluttony
Lucifer - Arrogance/Pride
Mammon - Greed
Asmodeus - Lechery/Lust
According to Christian folklore from what I remember, arrogance was the first sin and Satan the greatest of the highest angels.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Mean,

This is one time I will have to disagree with you. For the title of this web site: For The Bible Tells Me So -- is false. The Bible does NOT tell us that the homosexual lifestyle is normal; the Bible does NOT tell us that the homosexual lifestyle is an accepted alternate to traditional marriage.

Let's look at the introduction found on this web site:

Through the experiences of five very normal, very Christian, very American families -- including those of former House Majority Leader Richard Gephardt and Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson -- we discover how insightful people of faith handle the realization of having a gay child.

Richard Gephardt, yes, I will agree, by all appearances is a very normal, very Christian, very American family -- one which has had to deal with the liberal secular influence upon their child; an influence which has led this child into the homosexual lifestyle. Does God hate this child, the parents, or the family because this child became a lesbian? Absolutely not. God loves this family and wants to help this family. Should Richard Gephardt disown his daughter because of this? Absolutely not. We love our children regardless of the lifestyle they have chosen. But, we pray for them -- that they will find their way back into the arms of Jesus Christ.

On the other hand, to mix the Gephardt family with Gene Robinson is a farce. Gene Robinson did not have to deal with a homosexual child. Gene Robinson had a wife and children -- and he chose to leave them so that he could live in a homosexual relationship with another man. Yes, that is an abomination in the eyes of God. There is no other way to read the Bible.

But, the biggest abomination is that he is not only still a pastor -- but, he has been made a bishop in a Christian denomination. There is no way that anyone can twist the Bible to make this acceptable. Either a church teaches the Bible -- or the church throws out the Bible. If it throws out the Bible; then what will it teach?

And, take a look at who is behind this film:

1. 2007 Sundance Film Festival
2. Outfest Los Angeles
3. Image Out: The Rochester Gay and Lesbian Film Festival
4. Reel Pride: Fresno Gay and Lesbian Film Festival
5. Tampa international Gay and Lesbian Film Festival

Wow, this is really a surprise. A film trying to convince the world that God and the Bible accepts the homosexual lifestyle as normal -- and it is supported by Gay and Lesbian Film Festival organizations. I'll bet this would even make old Gomer Pyle say, "Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!"

Sorry, Mean, but, I cannot agree with you that this is a good movie. And, I am curious what redeeming value you find in it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Did you actually watch the film? Of course not. It was on HBO, and I watched the entire film. I would find it unimaginable that you would dismiss anything without seeing it, or having full knowledge of its contents.

I also think you have missed something. There are plenty of gay children in "conservative" households. Mary Cheney, Alan Keyes daughter, Phyllis Schaflys son, and a whole host of little Baptist kids I grew up with and those I know now. Perhaps these "conservative" homes were just not strong enough to withstand the "liberal secular influence".

"Lifestyle" - just another term used to minimize and diminish the LIVES of PEOPLE.

I am curious as to why you responded to this post of mine but not the larger post after it.

These organizations also reviewed this film favorably:

TV Guide Ken Fox
Through the hard-won experiences of these families, Karslake shows that Scripture and homosexuality are not mutually exclusive, and with the help of a number of academics and theologians, shows how the Bible has been misread, particularly during the 20th century.

Portland Oregonian Marc Mohan
In this involving if slightly unfocused documentary, director Daniel Karslake takes a two-pronged approach in examining how religion has been interpreted -- some would say twisted -- into, at its worst, monomaniacal homophobia

San Francisco Chronicle David Wiegand
It works well as a film and a lesson about, as one open-minded preacher puts it, what the Bible "reads" about what it supposedly "says" about homosexuality.

Chicago Tribune Jessica Reaves
Doesn’t shy from heart-tugging opportunities, and there’s a five-minute cartoon embedded in the movie that should have been excised, but beyond those problems and some stylistic dead air, this is a compelling, thought-provoking portrait of a quiet challenge rising within America’s churches.

The New York Times Matt Zoller Seitz
There is no denying that the film, however inelegant, fills a need. The inevitable DVD should be packaged in a plain cardboard sleeve, so that viewers can carry it in their pockets and, if confronted by a homophobe, hand it over and say, “Watch this, then get back to me.”

Washington Post Stephen Hunter
A brisk, entertaining and even moving exploration of the sometimes frayed intersection where Christianity meets homosexuality.
Last edited by meanasasnake
quote:
Originally posted by Erotica:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by meanasasnake:
Seven deadly sins are as follows:

1.Lust
2.Gluttony
3.Greed
4.Sloth (laziness)
5.Wrath
6.Envy
7.Pride (self righteousness would be an example of pride)

*Notice that lust is only one of the seven deadly sins. It does seem to be the most fascinating to many people.


You must have heard the same sermon I did. Wow!! The seven cardinal sins and their respective fallen angels:
Satan - Anger
Leviatan - Jealousy/Envy
Belphegor - Laziness
Beelzebub - Gluttony
Lucifer - Arrogance/Pride
Mammon - Greed
Asmodeus - Lechery/Lust
According to Christian folklore from what I remember, arrogance was the first sin and Satan the greatest of the highest angels.


Amen sista! Arrogance/Pride = Lucifer.
quote:
I'll bet this would even make old Gomer Pyle say, "Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!"


Gomer was played by Jim Nabors who is... gasp!... homosexual.


Mr. Bill, how long have you been obsessed with homosexuality? Is this a recent thing, or were you born that way? And what's the thing with Liza Minelli?

OK, don't answer. I really don't care.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by magikalis:
Mr. Gray,
I have read and re-read your posts on religion/homosexuality/sin. Honestly, I truly feel sorry for you. You must be absolutely terrified. It must be a constant struggle for you.
Hi Magi,

I have explained the Biblical view of homosexuality. Instead of trying to spin the dialogue to offer a non-Biblical view, why don't you give us your views on what you believe the Bible says about homosexuality.

I am truly interested in what you have to say.

And, I am not sure why I should be terrified. I never implied that the homosexual activists were planning a nuclear attack; only that their view of a family differs from what the Bible teaches.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
quote:
I'll bet this would even make old Gomer Pyle say, "Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!"


Gomer was played by Jim Nabors who is... gasp!... homosexual.

Mr. Bill, how long have you been obsessed with homosexuality? Is this a recent thing, or were you born that way? And what's the thing with Liza Minelli?

OK, don't answer. I really don't care.

DF
Hi Deep,

First, I have never heard anything about Jim Nabors being gay. However, I admire him and enjoy his shows. He is a very talented man. If he is gay; then, God bless him, I will pray for him. On the other hand, that may just be more of your atheist spin.

You asked how long have I been concerned about homosexuality. Since I had a fat guy try to hit on me when I was in high school -- only to find later that he was principal of one of the schools we played against in SHS varsity basketball. I felt pity for the kids in his school. But, unfortunately, at that young age, I was too afraid to tell Coach Collins about the man when I saw them talking after our game and recognized him as the homosexual who had tried to hit on me. That is one of the problems. Young people get hit on by homosexuals; and most often, they are too afraid to report it. As an adult, when someone who is gay tries to hit on me, I just shine them off. But, as a young boy in 1954, I was afraid of this man.

When did I become concerned about homosexuality as an adult? Some twenty years ago, when I began to study the Bible and at the same time saw how the homosexual agenda was invading our school system -- at the kindergarten level. Over the years, I have watched kindergarten, first, and second grade children being continually exposed in our public schools to gay guest speakers -- when no one from the opposite viewpoint was allowed to speak to the classes. Would I have wanted to go into the schools and contend with the gay activists at that level? No; for it would only cause confusion in their little minds. Would I want the gay activists kept out of our schools at that level? Yes, by all means. Children are not sent to school in kindergarten, first, and second grade to be indoctrinated by the homosexual lifestyle activists. They are sent there to learn to read, write, and develop their intellectual and social skills -- not to learn to have two mommies or two daddies.

Am I concerned? You bet I am. Not for my grandchildren; for, praise the Lord -- they are in Christian schools. But, my heart breaks for all those other young children who are being indoctrinated and brainwashed at an age where they should be free from such things.

Finally, on your comment about Liza Minelli -- I am not sure what you are smoking this late in the evening -- but, maybe you should go to bed and sleep it off. I have no idea how you got Liza into this. However, she is another great voice I admire. I don't know much about her private life, which is the way it should be. I do understand she has been married several times; but, in our society today, especially in Hollywood -- who hasn't?

So, my Friend Deep, take one more puff and get a good night sleep.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by alpp:
Originally posted by Disappointed:
________________________________________________

However if people's sexual orientation is determined by biological factors, it's not as if they are acting totally free.
________________________________________________

Actually they are. I do believe that sexual orientation is biological but sexual desire, whether homosexual or heterosexual, is not sin. Actually engaging in homosexual sex is sin. Actually engaging in heterosexual sex outside of marriage is sin. It is our choice whether to commit the sin or not.


I love that point of view. It is so absolutely fake. It basically says that the heart does not matter only the act does. IOW if a homosexual acts like a heterosexual then everything is fine. A person living such a lie can certainly make people such as yourself and Bill Gray happy, but I seriously doubt it makes God happy. God knows far more about homosexuality than anyone here. He knows and understands. I simply do not believe that He considers it an abomination. That is something that men came up with, not God.
quote:
Originally posted by magikalis: Mr. Gray, Forget about the Bible for a moment and consider this: What if your best friend (I'm certain you have friends), whom you loved and respected as a friend and what you believed to be a good person, came to you and told you they were gay? Would you put them out of your life? What would you do?
Hi Magi,

First of all, there is no way I can "forget about the Bible." That is like asking me to forget about breathing. The Bible is the Christian User's Manual for life. It is our spiritual lifeblood.

But, to your question: Would I turn away a friend who is gay? No. We have a very close friend whose son is gay. He is a very nice young man; very pleasant to be around. In February, we had a small gathering for my daughter's birthday -- me, my wife, my daughter, our friend, and her son. It was a very pleasant evening and I enjoyed talking with him. Did I preach to him? No.

Homosexuality and Christianity were never mentioned. He goes to church and considers himself to be a Christian; although I do not see how anyone can be a Christian when you have to throw out the Bible to support your lifestyle. I told my wife that if he brings up the Bible or Christianity and asks my opinion -- I would be honest with him and tell him that he needs to get a better understanding of what the Bible teaches. Would I like to talk with him about this? Yes. But, I would not that evening because I did not want to cause any friction.

As I said, I enjoy this young man's company and like him. But, I hate his lifestyle.

Would I ever turn any friend away because he or she was gay? No. But, I would try to find an appropriate time and place to discuss this with them privately. And, I would do my best to get them to attend our church and Bible studies.

You ask me, "If a friend. . .whom you loved and respected as a friend and what you believed to be a good person, came to you and told you they were gay?"

Magi, you are implying that a person who is gay is not a good person. That is not true. Many gay people are very good people; many are very nice people. The only problem is that their lifestyle is wrong; their lifestyle is bad -- not them.

Finally, Magi, as a Christian I can never and will never "forget about the Bible." It is a part of me; it is God's Written Word; telling me about God's Living Word, Jesus Christ. And, He is the most important person in my life.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Hi Logical,

You tell us, "I love that point of view. It is so absolutely fake. It basically says that the heart does not matter only the act does. IOW if a homosexual acts like a heterosexual then everything is fine. A person living such a lie can certainly make people such as yourself and Bill Gray happy, but I seriously doubt it makes God happy. God knows far more about homosexuality than anyone here. He knows and understands. I simply do not believe that He considers it an abomination. That is something that men came up with, not God."

In an earlier post, I gave what I believe the Bible says about homosexuality; supported by Scripture passages.

You may be right. So, please tell us your interpretation of what the Bible says about homosexuality; God's views on homosexuality; and support it with the Scripture passages or verses of your choice.

I am truly interested in getting your input on this and being able to calmly and civilly discuss the issue with you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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