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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion I began titled "Reports Say Obama Admitted He's a Muslim" -- Hayssco23 responds, '"Mostly your information comes from one point of view and is only defended from the sources that give that one point of view. And in the end, what does it matter if Obama is a Muslim? Open your eyes and see that every Muslim isn't a terrorist, they are law abiding citizens just looking to practice their religion beliefs. We don't lump all Christians in with Fred Phelps or the many cults that continually pop up, do we?

You can sit here and say 'my religion is right, you have to be mine' all you want, but in the end, you have no more say about what is correct than anyone else. Just because you grew up a Christian, or were exposed to Christianity (more) than any other religion doesn't mean it is the 'end all, be all' of religions"


Hay, first, I did not grow up a Christian. I wish I had; but, unfortunately, I did not become a Christian believer until I was fifty.

Regarding Islam being a "religion of peace" -- you need to study it a wee bit more. No "religion of peace" will tell its followers to convert all the infidels (by the way, that is you and me) or destroy them.

Then, my Friend, Logical, asks me, "Have you actually read any of the Qur'an?"

Logical, while I do not make a practice of studying the Qur'an, I do have a copy sent to me by CAIR. In recognizing false religions or teachings, I prefer to use the FBI standard on how they recognize false currency. How are they taught to recognize false currency? By studying real currency until they know it like the back of their own hand; then, a false currency will stand out like a sore thumb.

The same with faith; study the Written Word of God, the Bible, until you know it like the back of your hand -- and, then, false religions and teachings will stand out like a sore thumb.

But, back to the Qur'an. In my Qur'an, Surah 9:5, I read, "And so, when the sacred months are over, slay those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God (Allah for them) wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place. Yet if they repent, and take to prayer (Islamic prayer), and render the purifying dues, let them go their way: for, behold, God (Allah) is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace." Parenthetical emphasis is mine.

As you can see, when the Qur'an was translated to be distributed by the CAIR, they were careful to use the name God, and not Allah. However, in the online version below, you will see that it is still Allah and not God. And, contrary to liberal, secular, and atheist teachings, Allah and God are definitely not the same.

The verse below is from the web site: Interpretation of the Meanings of The Noble Quran
Published by Dar-us-Salam Publications
http://www.dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/index.html

Surah 9:5, "Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikan (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

In my copy of the Qur'an, there are footnotes which tell us, "There shall be no coercion in matters of faith" and "war is permissible only in self defense." If you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I will sell you very cheap.

Consider the history of Mohammed and his ravaging of trade caravans to fund his army -- consider the history of Islam's spread -- consider 9-11 -- consider the pubic beheading of the American journalist and many other kidnapped captives -- ask anyone who has heard the rantings of many Islamic holy men on television -- ask anyone who has heard Iran's president and many Arab leaders call for the annihilation of Israel and the Great Satan, America. Then, tell me that Islam is a "religion of peace."

Should we, as Christian believers, turn away from our Islamic friends? No. We should pray for them; we should, when possible, share the true Word of God with them. But, we must never be deceived into believing that the vast Islamic community, in America, in Britain, in Europe, across the Middle East -- wants to be friends with America or with Americans.

As I said, in those communities, even if it is not spoken publicly -- America is still the "Great Satan" -- the friend of Muslim's long hated enemy, Israel. If it were only a small minority of Muslims who feel this way; why do those who do not -- stay silent in support of the Militant Islamic Terrorists?

No, my Friend, this is the relationship between the descendants of Ishmael and the descendants of Isaac which will not be resolved in peace -- until our Lord Jesus Christ returns and establishes His Millennial Kingdom on earth. Then, for the first time since Ishmael and Isaac -- there will be peace upon the earth, ruled by the hand of Jesus Christ from the throne of David in Jerusalem, the holy city of God.

Until then, we share the Word of God with our Islamic friends, and all our friends -- but, we do not destroy our weapons of war, our means of self defense against terrorism and those who view us as the Great Satan to be destroyed, until Jesus Christ returns to give us true peace.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by tcf531:
so, when jesus used the term allah when he spoke of god, he was refering to a different god than you subscribe to?

Hi TCF,

Please show us where in the Bible Jesus Christ used the name Allah.

This appears to be another one of those atheist "Let's throw it against the wall and see if it sticks" type comment.

Sorry, my Friend -- it does not stick.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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who is deep fat?
i keep seeing references to this name, but none of it ever makes sence.

so far i've seen bill tells us that about 7 different people are deep fat.

is that just a phrase he uses for someone who disagree's with him... since he is the all knowing, all seeing great and terrible Bill, if you disagree with him it means your in hot deep fat?

i haven't been here long enough to know, i've only seen bill call ' deep fat' on several people now.

just curious..
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Just as I said in the "Obama is a Muslim" thread, when Bill can't refute what others have said, rather than admit he was wrong, he runs away and starts a new post.

Hi O,

No, actually I start a new discussion for one of two reasons:

Either because I believe it to be something which will benefit all the Religion Forum readers and I do not want it to get lost in a bunch of atheist clutter.

Or, when the post starts to get too much atheist paranoia and ranting, as such distracts from serious discussions. Of course, you and I know that it the purpose behind most of the atheist rhetoric and jibber-jabber.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
who is deep fat?
i keep seeing references to this name, but none of it ever makes sence. so far i've seen bill tells us that about 7 different people are deep fat. is that just a phrase he uses for someone who disagree's with him... since he is the all knowing, all seeing great and terrible Bill, if you disagree with him it means your in hot deep fat? i haven't been here long enough to know, i've only seen bill call ' deep fat' on several people now. just curious..

Hi Nagel,

No, my Friend, since you have been here I have only flagged one person as being our old nemesis, Deep.

My Friend, Deep, is the reason I came on the TimesDaily Forums over three years ago. I saw a discussion titled "What Is A Christian?" and wondered what my home town Friends had to say. What I found was a Forum dominated by several athiest -- Deep and Fish being the two most vocal.

About a year ago, Deep decided to use a few four letter words to describe me -- and the Mods booted him off. Since then, he has reincarnated several times using other names. But, his dislike for God, Christian, the Bible, etc., is so strong that his words always betray him. Thus, it is easy to recognize my old Friend -- regardless of which dress he is wearing.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
who is deep fat?
i keep seeing references to this name, but none of it ever makes sence. so far i've seen bill tells us that about 7 different people are deep fat. is that just a phrase he uses for someone who disagree's with him... since he is the all knowing, all seeing great and terrible Bill, if you disagree with him it means your in hot deep fat? i haven't been here long enough to know, i've only seen bill call ' deep fat' on several people now. just curious..

Hi Nagel,

No, my Friend, since you have been here I have only flagged one person as being our old nemesis, Deep.

My Friend, Deep, is the reason I came on the TimesDaily Forums over three years ago. I saw a discussion titled "What Is A Christian?" and wondered what my home town Friends had to say. What I found was a Forum dominated by several athiest -- Deep and Fish being the two most vocal.

About a year ago, Deep decided to use a few four letter words to describe me -- and the Mods booted him off. Since then, he has reincarnated several times using other names. But, his dislike for God, Christian, the Bible, etc., is so strong that his words always betray him. Thus, it is easy to recognize my old Friend -- regardless of which dress he is wearing.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


i still don't understand... because "dellusional" has more than 4 letters.

and, keep in mind, i've been here longer than you realize - i lurked quite a while before i decided to repy to anything. so i've seen you say ' is this our old friend deepfish come back to us?" more than once.
i think i remember you calling Road Puppy deepfatfish.

i'm surprised you haven't called me fishfat yet. the most effective way of disguising your identity on a public forum like this would be to alter your typing habits radically.
i'm an old BBS Sysop, trust me on this one - i know of what i speak here.

I'll say this - i'd be interested in talking to this fatfish friend of yours. for a little while, anyway.

See... my problem, both with you and other hardcore conservative christians, AND the doggedly convinced athiests... is closed mindedness.

you refuse to entertain any possibility of the point opposite of yours haveing any validity.
that's my problem with " Blind Faith" - whether it is blind faith that god is there watching, or just as blindly saying that god doesn't exist.
we can't know. CANNOT "Know". you cna believe with all of your heart, but until someone finds a way to go back to the begining and watches, whether you believe in god, or deny his existance, ther eis no solid way to KNOW.
Science looks at data, and presents their best educated guess.
you read the bible, and present the best guess you can from that information, without haveing any HARD proof that the bible is anymore than candyfloss

athiests have just as strongly deveveloped sence of Faith as you do, their faith just likes in believing in the non-existance of God.

and neither one of you will ever say " well.. i'm not sure, because i don't have any solid unquestionable proof, but i believe strongly."

Except road puppy. he says he doesn't believe, but he also is openminded enough to admit the possibility that he could be wrong.

and me. I believe, strongly, that God is real, but i also admit that i might be wrong. i don't have proof. the bible isn't proof. it's just more rhetoric for people who already believe. you cannot use the bible to prove the existance of God to someone who doesn't believe. just as athiests cannot use scientific theories to prove the opposite.

The only thing that really really burns my buns is closedmindedness, total refusal to accept the posibility that you're wrong. Especially in a situation where there just simply isn't enough hard data to prove anythign one way or the other.

i think both sides are right, and i also think both sides are wrong - neither side has the definitive truth hidden away in their vaults.

it just makes be crazy to see anyone, on any side of any discussion like this who refuses to ....

what was it Road Puppy called it " willfully Ignorant"? i think that pretty much covers it, except i would change it to Smugly Ignorant. not only do they not know, not only do they not want to know, but they are Smug about the whole thing.

I've given up trying to reach anyone on here. everyone .. well.. most everyone seems to already know all the answers to the point i can't understand why anyone even bothers discussing anything in here. everyone knows exactly what reply a given person will give to a new thread, and everyone know that if the thread goes on for more than just a couple of pages it's all going to end up on the same 4 or 5 topics.
everytime.
and everytime, it'll be the same players - Rolls will vary depending on the topic and who started it, but it's always the same old same old over and over.

And in the end, no one learns anything. Frowner
Try the Aramaic and Syriac versions. Double dog guarantee that these use Allah just as Muslims do or a slight variation of the letters El and All.

The word is cognate with the Jewish word "Eli" and on the Cross what does Our Lord say?
Eli, Eli, lama sabathani, if I am not mistaken as that is the start of the 81st Psalm in Aramaic.

Allah just means God in Arabic, and that is the word used by Christians as well as Muslim whether in Beirut or Damascus.
by Bill Gray
quote:
Until then, we share the Word of God with our Islamic friends, and all our friends -- but, we do not destroy our weapons of war, our means of self defense against terrorism and those who view us as the Great Satan to be destroyed, until Jesus Christ returns to give us true peace


You try sharing the Word with one of them Bill and you will end up with a Knife in the Back, he's got to kill Infidels to get to that place where the 72 virgins are waiting on him to do his bidding, every time I see one I think of a Wildebeest, I don't know where all the Virgins will be at because the Bible says that the only way you can get to Heaven is through Jesus Christ, John 4:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. so I don't think that they believe in Jesus do they?
Last edited by prince albert
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Well, Nagel,
I, for one, have learned much from your discussions. So please stick around! Smiler You have a good balance of faith and common sense- a rarity around these parts...


Oh, i'm not going anyplace.
but i am going to stop trying to beat my brains out against concrete lined skulls.
so now i'm just make fun of em Smiler

to quote the Immortal George Clinton - Funk em if they can't take a joke.
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Try the Aramaic and Syriac versions. Double dog guarantee that these use Allah just as Muslims do or a slight variation of the letters El and All.

The word is cognate with the Jewish word "Eli" and on the Cross what does Our Lord say?
Eli, Eli, lama sabathani, if I am not mistaken as that is the start of the 81st Psalm in Aramaic.

Allah just means God in Arabic, and that is the word used by Christians as well as Muslim whether in Beirut or Damascus.

Hi Neal,

Well, as both Albert and I have said (we both must be from Missouri) -- SHOW ME!

You can toss out your "I'm Marian the Librarian" chatter all you want; but, show us the meat.

If it ain't in the Bible -- it ain't so!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by prince albert:
by Bill Gray
quote:
Until then, we share the Word of God with our Islamic friends, and all our friends -- but, we do not destroy our weapons of war, our means of self defense against terrorism and those who view us as the Great Satan to be destroyed, until Jesus Christ returns to give us true peace

You try sharing the Word with one of them Bill and you will end up with a Knife in the Back, he's got to kill Infidels to get to that place where the 72 virgins are waiting on him to do his bidding, every time I see one I think of a Wildebeest, I don't know where all the Virgins will be at because the Bible says that the only way you can get to Heaven is through Jesus Christ, John 4:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. so I don't think that they believe in Jesus do they?

Hi Albert,

As I mentioned in my earlier post; I have seen my senior pastor lead two Muslims to the Lord. And, I have Friends today working in Muslim communities.

We can witness to them. But, as you said, it can be very dangerous. No one is unreachable -- if we are willing to reach.

Also, I mentioned in an earlier post about meeting a young man who had been a strong White Supremacist -- until a brave Christian walked up to him on the street and shared Jesus with him. Today, that young man is an on-fire Christian.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by prince albert:
quote:
Originally posted by tcf531:
so, when jesus used the term allah when he spoke of god, he was refering to a different god than you subscribe to?


the Bible doesn't mention the word Allah.


jesus spoke aramaic, the precursor to arabic, the aramaic word for god is alah (pronounced exactly the same as allah). So yes, everytime the bible mentions god it mentions allah.
From the bible...

Samuel 15:18
And he sent you on a mission, saying, 'Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.'

Deuteronomy 20:16-18
16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroya them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.

The idea of "believe as I do or die" is a pretty common thread among religions. Muslim and Christian alike. One is no better than the other when it comes to this. That is why religion can be a very destructive and dangerous thing to humanity. We will all be better off without it. Of course it will take a lot of time before we reach the age of true enlightenment.
Last edited by Jankinonya
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Hooberbloob:
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Allah is the god of Abraham. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all recognize him.

TR


I guess you called your father "dad" or maybe you called your dad "father". That would mean anybody else who called their father "dad" or their dad "father" would be your brother, if your logic is correct.


so if you call your dad dad, and your brother calls your father father, that means you aren't family?
quote:
Originally posted by tcf531:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Hooberbloob:
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Allah is the god of Abraham. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all recognize him.

TR


I guess you called your father "dad" or maybe you called your dad "father". That would mean anybody else who called their father "dad" or their dad "father" would be your brother, if your logic is correct.


so if you call your dad dad, and your brother calls your father father, that means you aren't family?


and since we're in the south -

if you sister calls your father uncle daddy, what relation are you to her?
quote:
Originally posted by tcf531:
oh and about the surah bill mentioned in the opening post, this is about a broken peace treaty:

http://www.muslimaccess.com/ar...s/jihad/surah9_5.asp

Wow! TCF,

An Islamic web site that says positive things about the Qur'an -- who would have thought it?

Yes, I saw that web site -- but, then I went directly to the Qur'an itself. Who best to speak about the Qur'an -- than the Qur'an?

Bye, Y'all,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by tcf531:
quote:
Originally posted by prince albert:
quote:
Originally posted by tcf531:
so, when jesus used the term allah when he spoke of god, he was refering to a different god than you subscribe to?

the Bible doesn't mention the word Allah.

jesus spoke aramaic, the precursor to arabic, the aramaic word for god is alah (pronounced exactly the same as allah). So yes, everytime the bible mentions god it mentions allah.

Hi TCF,

As they say in Missouri -- SHOW ME!

Show me once instance of the word Allah being in any of our Bibles.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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What language did Jesus really speak during his ministry?

It's very important to know that the Hebrew and Greek letters that were found, are only translations that were written 150 to 300 years after Jesus. It is important to know that Jesus did not speak Greek. So therefore, the Greek letters are nothing but a translation (which could have many faults in it) from Aramaic to Greek. Same applies to Hebrew. When you translate a doctrine that was written hundreds of years after the fact into another language, then you can't really claim that your sources are 100% correct. As a matter of a fact, claiming 50% would be even too much.

Aramaic Language, Semitic language closely related to Hebrew. Originally the language of the Aramaeans (see Aram), it was used, in many dialectical forms, in Mesopotamia and Syria before 1000BC and later became the lingua franca of the Middle East (see Assyro-Babylonian Language). Aramaic survived the fall of Nineveh (612BC) and Babylon (539BC) and remained the official language of the Persian Empire (539-337BC). Ancient inscriptions in Aramaic have been found over a vast area extending from Egypt to China.

Before the Christian era, Aramaic had become the language of the Jews in Palestine. Jesus preached in Aramaic, and parts of the Old Testament and much of the rabbinical literature were written in that language. Christian Aramaic, usually called Syriac, also developed an extensive literature, especially from the 4th to 7th centuries.

Aramaic began to decline in the 7th century AD. Aramaic survives today in Eastern and Western dialects, mostly as the language of Christians living in a few scattered communities in Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Iraq, and Iran.
quote:
athiests have just as strongly deveveloped sence of Faith as you do, their faith just likes in believing in the non-existance of God.

My dear nagel,

This just is not true. Atheists have no faith in atheism, it just rings true. Show an atheist reason to believe, he just might, and probably will.

The lack of faith is not faith. Atheism is not a monolithic belief system that requires adherence, it's simply the lack of belief in a god system. It's a lack of faith, a refusal to invest in a god system. You have to understand how that's possible.

UT
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
quote:
athiests have just as strongly deveveloped sence of Faith as you do, their faith just likes in believing in the non-existance of God.

My dear nagel,

This just is not true. Atheists have no faith in atheism, it just rings true. Show an atheist reason to believe, he just might, and probably will.

The lack of faith is not faith. Atheism is not a monolithic belief system that requires adherence, it's simply the lack of belief in a god system. It's a lack of faith, a refusal to invest in a god system. You have to understand how that's possible.

UT


i do, but, while this may not apply to you personally, you have to understand exactly what *I* said.

here's the chain of logic -

the faithful believe in something that have no definitive proof of. i cannot PROOVE that God exists.
the atheiest believes, without definitive proof, that god doesn't exist.

Faith, defined for the purposes of the topic, is believing in something for which you have no proof of.

now there are some who don't worry about the existance of no existance of God, and just follow the path science lays out. those aren't the people i'm taking about. they spend little time on the reailty or falsehood of god. they just don't care.

i'm refering to the more outspoken ones who say NO .. NO there IS NO GOD - and expect me to take their word for it with their sketchy proof, the same as Bill presents his case with sketchy proof.

we can theorise and postulate, we can make guesses - but no matter how solidly based in science those guesses are, the absoloute active atheiest has no more proof that god isn't real than bill has that he is real.

that is why i say that athiests have just as strong a sense of faith as the creationists. they cannot PROOVE it, and yet they believe it to be true.

until we build a time machine and go back to the begining we simply cannot *know*, in either direction.

do you at least understand the reason i make these statements? (whether or not you agree with them.)

(edited for quite a lot of typos )
Last edited by thenagel
quote:

Hi TCF,

Okay, I visited your web site, which, by the way is a Muslim web site -- and it tells us: Thee KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon -- Strong's Number: 0426 which they tell us means: 'elahh (Aramaic)'

Then, I went the BlueLetterBible web site, searched in the KJV Bible -- and found many references to God (no surprise). So, I start with the first: Genesis 1:1.

This tells me that God is the Hebrew word 'elohiym -- Strong's Concordance number H430.

Strong's tells me that this is the plural of 'elowahh (H433) which means: God

Going one step further we find 'el (H410) -- which means: God, the one true God, Jehovah

TCF, I then went to my hard copy Strong's Concordance where it has page after page after page of listings of the name God -- of which 98% or more are 'elohiym -- Strong's Concordance number H430. In all those pages, and in my computer search -- I could not find any reference to God using the Strong's number 0426.

In Mark 15:34, we read, "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?' which is translated, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?'"

This phrase "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" we know is Aramaic. And, you will notice that in this great time of stress, when Jesus is suffering terribly and calls out to His Father -- it is the Aramaic "Eloi" -- which relates to the Hebrew 'elohiym

As I said before -- God and Allah are totally different -- and you cannot show me anywhere in the Bible where Jesus Christ refers to the Father as Allah.

One thing I might suggest. If you want to study the Bible; don't expect to find any support on a Muslim web site.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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