Skip to main content

The "source" of the information is a co-author of the study. The study is an estimate based on the methodology used by all researchers. It is a credible study.

Shock and Awe targeted Baghdad and our "precision" weapons still hit civilian areas. It was carried by Aljazeera. The world saw it. It was censored in the US. Robert Fisk from the British publication the Independent also documented civilian deaths as well as other foreign and independent press. It was the US government that lied.

(Interventor- quote) - " Initial denial was because no body checked with the troops. Embarassing, but hardly a lie."

White Phosphorus is to be used for illusionary purposes only, not as a weapon. It is a chemical and it penetrates through clothes and burns through the skin. It doesn't wash off. The US lied about not using the weapon because it is illegal.
"Shock and Awe targeted Baghdad and our "precision" weapons still hit civilian areas. It was carried by Aljazeera. The world saw it. It was censored in the US. Robert Fisk from the British publication the Independent also documented civilian deaths as well as other foreign and independent press. It was the US government that lied."
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
To quote Foghorn Leghorn, "You ain't listening!" Cruise missiles and smart bombs are buildind busters, not double block buster -- destroying two city blocks. I've been in a couple of buildings hit by them. The building was wrecked, but still standing. In a residential area they might collapse a couple of homes, klling two or three families. But, it would take fleets of such missiles to kill the number you claim. Such numbers don't exist.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"White Phosphorus is to be used for illusionary purposes only, not as a weapon. It is a chemical and it penetrates through clothes and burns through the skin. It doesn't wash off. The US lied about not using the weapon because it is illegal."
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
You obviously, don't know a dam thing about munitions. WP is used in flares fired from a tube that slowly parachutes to earth, illuminating the area. Likewise, it is used in artillery starlight shells to illuminate larger areas.

But, it is also used in artillery shells, tank shells, mortar rounds, and hand grenades as offensive weapons. The US, UK and several other nations use them. I used such grenades in Nam and my father used them in WWII. They are classified as incendiary weapons, not chemical weapons. Grenades were the type WP used in Fallujah.
Pogo,

Your quote:
"White Phosphorus is to be used for illusionary purposes only, not as a weapon. It is a chemical and it penetrates through clothes and burns through the skin. It doesn't wash off. The US lied about not using the weapon because it is illegal."
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I'm going to make this dirt simple. If you had checked my link you would have found:

http://www.crimesofwar.org/onnews/news-fallujah3.html

"Incendiary weapons like white phosphorus are governed by another treaty -- the 1980 Protocol III to the Convention on Conventional "Weapons. This defines incendiary weapons as primarily designed "to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat or a combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target." (The fact that heat or flame is produced by a chemical reaction does not make them chemical weapons, since it is not a case of a substance that causes death or injury by chemical action on the victim's "life processes")"

A link to Protocol III
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/i...al-wpns_prot-iii.htm

and an excerpt from the Protocol:

"Article 1
Definitions
For the purpose of this Protocol:
Incendiary weapon" means any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target. (a) Incendiary weapons can take the form of, for example, flame throwers, fougasses, shells, rockets, grenades, mines, bombs and other containers of incendiary substances. "


This part of what I do professionally. So, don't mistake your wishes for what exists. At best, thats fantasy. At worst, its rubber room time.

I'll agre WP is nasty stuff, but so is a driil bit in your skull or a dull knife cutting your throat -- both jehadim specialties.
The victims of "Shock and Awe" were shown of Aljazeera TV and independent and foreign journalists reported on them. The world saw and read about the deaths. I posted one of the co-authors of the John Hopkins/Lancet study. At this time without further research I am not exactly sure how the majority of Iraqi's died. I do know that a large amount of civilians were killed during the initial attack and the weeks following.

As far as White Phosphorous at first the US said they didn't use it but vicitms could be examined that clearly showed we did. I remember hearing an army official say that the weapon was not banned but could be used for illusionary purposes and that's what it was used for but transcripts that were printed out in a military publication stated otherwise.

When I have some time, hopefully by tomorrow I can do a little research and find the show and articles I have read. But I do know that although according to your site it is not classified as a "chemical weapon" it is a chemical and does cause, ("death or injury by chemical action on the victim's "life processes")"

Also, "Drill bits in the head and cutting of throats" is not exclusive to "jihadest." These tortures techniques are use by our Shiite allies as well as death squads and torture chambers in Latin America and around the world the US CIA either helped establish or supported, as well as others.
US did use some WP artillery shells at Fallujah, as well as grenades. US uses the munition sparingly, as it tend to burn up buildings they do not wish to destroy.

Similarly, in France the US did not use .50 caliber armor piercing incendiary rounds because we did not wish to burn up allied towns. Once we crossed into Germany we used them.

A few other times the munitions were used;

"At the start of the Normandy campaign, 20% of American 81 mm mortar rounds were WP. At least five American Medal of Honor citations mention their recipients using white phosphorus grenades to clear enemy positions. In the 1944 liberation of Cherbourg alone, a single U.S. mortar battalion, the 87th, fired 11,899 white phosphorus rounds into the city.
The U.S. Army and Marines used WP shells in large 4.2-inch chemical mortars. WP was widely credited by Allied soldiers for breaking up German infantry attacks and creating havoc among enemy troop concentrations during the latter part of the war. The psychological impact of WP on the enemy was noted by many troop commanders in WWII, and captured 4.2-inch mortar crews were sometimes summarily executed by German forces in reprisal.

WP munitions were used extensively in Korea, Vietnam and later by Russian forces in Chechnya. According to GlobalSecurity.org, "In the December 1994 battle for Grozny in Chechnya, every fourth or fifth Russian artillery or mortar round fired was a smoke or white phosphorus round."

from Wikipedia.
They destroyed a good portion of Fullijah. They "flatten" certain sections. I forget the exact numbers at the time. But damage and destruction was extension. The corporate media played it down. It was used as an example against resistance to occupation.

US committed War crimes against Germany when it bombed cities with civilians as the targets. Historian Howard Zinn was a bomber during WW2 and includes his experiences in his lectures and essays. But I am not going to debate WW2 or get too far of the subject.

In Vietnam US killed over two million people. The destruction and war crimes by Russia in Chechnya were reported by Human Rights organizations such as Amnesty International and the independent progressive press. The US media played down those reports because the US was now allied with Russia and working on better political and business relations. US media lies and protects all US allies. The media plays up the suicide bombers of Chechnya and portrays Russia as a victim of "Islamic terrorism."

Since Bush has now revised the cold war and encirclement of Russia we are beginning to see negative reporting on Russia.
It's a wonder we have any allies left. Bush and his policies have managed to destroy whatever "goodwill" this country has had with almost every other country, with the possible exception of Great Britain. And now that Tony is out of the picture, he'll probably manage to piss them off also.

Who needs friends anyway? We are a Super Power. F*** 'em all! If they don't like our imperialistic hegemony over the entire world, they can just lump it.

The next big thing is gonna be when China or another emerging super-power wannabe tries to challenge the US's complete domination of Space. We're not happy just controlling the land on the planet, but we feel it necessary to also control the skies. And if anyone has a problem with that, that's just too bad for them.
The problem is, if we are not busy fighting a war, and spending lots of money on the war machine, companies like Kellogg, Brown, and Root (a former subsidiary of Cheney's Halliburton) and other military contractors don't make any money. So if we don't have any legitimate reasons to fight a war, all the ex-Pentagon employees who are now running these companies invent reasons to go to war. They market the war with catch slogans like, "We've got to fight them over there instead of on US soil", and we are "spreading democracy" to all of the victims of "brutal dictators", etc.

And if it turns out that thousands or millions end up dying in the manufactured war, that's just the price you pay to keep the gears of the war machine going. It's no skin off Cheney's behind. Maybe if he had served in the military during Vietnam, instead of getting a deferment, he would have some concept of the suffering that comes with lining the pockets of all his buddies that are profiting from this madness.
Population of Fallujah was estimated at 350,000 to 400,000. At least 75 percent evacuated before US begin assault. Next myth!

No the bombimg of cities was not a war crime in the forties, you really need to read the old Geneva Convention, not the accords of 1949. Next myth!


Viet Nam was about 2 million casualties, icluding 1 million dead, rest were wounded. Next myth!

Have to agree Russia and terrorist were equally guilty after hostilities began. But, if muslims hadn't took hostages in Russia territory, the hostilities wouldn't have started.

If you have read european publications, you would know the anti-American propaganda goes back for decades. Jimmah Carter was a special target of derision (OK, they got that one right). Even main stream news use lines once used against the jews in the thities. The vehement poison has been rampant for years. The french never forgave us for liberating them and the german never foegave us for helping defeat their god-king. Only the Poles, Czechs, Hungarians and Baltic nations are thankful. But, Sarkozy did get some votes because of the sheer anti-American line of Sego Royal's socialist and the fascist party.

US is shifting contracts to Iraqi companies as part of the reconstruction program.
quote:
Originally posted by aubfire1:
You are both right, Nash and interventor. I'm beginning to wonder whether it is even worth discussing anything with Pogo, and now that he is posting propaganda from Hamas my decision is becoming more clear. I can't believe that any decent American would read, much less post crap like this. And he doesn't understand why conservative label him "anti-American." I think there is some jihad going on in his brain!



Yeah RIGHT,Posting
Propaganda? MAN YOU PEOPLE BEAT ALL I EVER SEE A BUNCH RIGHT WINGS GAINING ON ONE AND CALLING his POST PROPAGADA. POGO they WANT YOU TO WATCH FOX NEWS AND THINK LIKE THEM!
Pogo,I would not waste my time on this bunch of consevative right wingers. Nash is very far to the right as well as others here. its ok to say that because they think you are way to the left.These Right Wingers will find away to disagree with you. but if they come off as a smart ass to you fight back!

Pogo, if you will, Read some of these people's replies from other post and you will see how far to the Right they lean. You will see that you're wasting your time. They think oneway and cannot and will not open both eyes. They only see things the way they have been talked by mom,dad,and their church TO ONLY SEE IT THEIR WAY.
Last edited by Jan55
quote:
Yeah RIGHT,Posting
Propaganda? MAN YOU PEOPLE BEAT ALL I EVER SEE A BUNCH RIGHT WINGS GAINING ON ONE AND CALLING his POST PROPAGADA. POGO they WANT YOU TO WATCH FOX NEWS AND THINK LIKE THEM!


I don't want anyone to think like me, I just want people to think regardless if they agree with me or not. Limiting oneself to slanted information and denying facts is not thinking, it's consuming propaganda.
Nash,

As you may guess, I am a details man. When they tried to justify the study, I tried to explain the sheer mechanics, to no avail.

To imagine 650,000 deaths of civilians in low intensity warfare in a country of about 27 million is preposterous. In high intensity warfare of WWII, US had 405,000 deaths. In the Civil War, the entire number of deaths was 600,000 on a population base of 31 million. That was high intensity warfare and battle fields were stacked with bodies.

Their entire argument reminds me of a particularly nasty Japanese politician. He said proof the US was racist was that Germany wasn't nuked and Japan was. Never mind that VE Day was 8 May 1945, the A-bomb was tested at White Sands on 16 July 1945 and Hiroshima wa nuked on 6 August 1945. He still stands by his argument -- xenophobic, invulnerable stupidity.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Yeah RIGHT,Posting
Propaganda? MAN YOU PEOPLE BEAT ALL I EVER SEE A BUNCH RIGHT WINGS GAINING ON ONE AND CALLING his POST PROPAGADA. POGO they WANT YOU TO WATCH FOX NEWS AND THINK LIKE THEM!


I don't want anyone to think like me, I just want people to think regardless if they agree with me or not. Limiting oneself to slanted information and denying facts is not thinking, it's consuming propaganda.



Well you need to start backing up your facts as well! the facts you get come from the RIGHT WING SIDE OF THINGS!
quote:
Originally posted by interventor:
Nash,

As you may guess, I am a details man. When they tried to justify the study, I tried to explain the sheer mechanics, to no avail.

To imagine 650,000 deaths of civilians in low intensity warfare in a country of about 27 million is preposterous. In high intensity warfare of WWII, US had 405,000 deaths. In the Civil War, the entire number of deaths was 600,000 on a population base of 31 million. That was high intensity warfare and battle fields were stacked with bodies.

Their entire argument reminds me of a particularly nasty Japanese politician. He said proof the US was racist was that Germany wasn't nuked and Japan was. Never mind that VE Day was 8 May 1945, the A-bomb was tested at White Sands on 16 July 1945 and Hiroshima wa nuked on 6 August 1945. He still stands by his argument -- xenophobic, invulnerable stupidity.



Give us your facts and where you get them!
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Well you need to start backing up your facts as well! the facts you get come from the RIGHT WING SIDE OF THINGS!


I do back up my facts and I do my best to avoid biased sources. Right slanted media is no more reliable than left slanted media. If you actually read my posts you would understand that.




Yeah Right Nash, You're full of it ain't you? Nash, you're all ways right and your right wing friends agree with you. I will let you have that one!
The US forces surrounded Fallijuah and only allowed women, children under 16 and the elderly to leave. All others were not allowed. The US said it did not want any resistance fighters to "escape" with the population. Some simply said they did not want to leave their houses and wind up in some refugee camp and lose everything they had. Some really had no where to go.

I believe it was independent journalist Dhar Jamal who stayed as well as a few others. They reported the US use of white phosphorous, which US first denied, and destroyed most of the city indiscriminately killing inhabitants that remained or were trapped.

I love your logic, there was no Geneva Convention in the 40's so it was perfectly legal to target civilians. Funny. You could say the same about slavery. Before it was outlawed it was perfectly fine. Sure, then on day people suddenly woke and said, this is wrong.

There are certain crimes against humanity. Everything Hitler did was legal. The reason they pass these laws are because some crimes are against humanity. And actually I believe there was a previous law against targeting civilians that goes back to WW1 or before. Which I forget it's name. I have read articles by conservatives and military people admitting it was wrong to do but necessary to end the war.

Over two million were killed in Vietnam with over 4 million causalities.

The war in Chechnya began when it declared it's independence. Russia was forced to allow some states to break away but not Chechnya.

In general relations with Europe were fine for decades. What they resent is US arrogance, bullying and greed.

American relations did not play that much importance in the recent French Elections. Sarkozy ran a well polished campaign based on fear. He promised "reforms" to help the economy and a hard line on immigrants. He received most of his support from wealthy and the population 60 years and older. Because of the riots last year the number one issue in polls was fear of immigrants.

Royal ran a poor campaign and sort of "flip lopped " around. She did not instill confidence. She was also not liked by the old hard line socialist party whom she does not get along with. She was more like Clinton then FDR.

The French election was not a landslide. It was a clear victory but not a rout.

The Iraq War and our presence in the region has always been about oil. The recent oil law that hands over the majority of profits to the oil corporations shows their intentions all along. It is the first of Bush and the "democratic" congresses benchmarks. What a joke.

The oil was suppose to pay for the war.

One of the first things Bremer did was write up a new constitution that privatized the Iraq economy and opened it up to foreign, especially US exploitation and plundering.

Thanks for the advice pba and the support Peace Brother. I am use to posters like this. I posted on AOL for over 7 years. You will really see some nasty stuff there but I post so others can see there are other sides then the one sided spin we are exposed to from the corporate media and government. People can checkout alternative sites and publications that will give them more information and other opinions and perspectives.

I just wish we could stay on the subject instead of going all over the place.

The study on Iraq casualties was done by John Hopkins and Lancet which are two of the most respected in their field. It said it is estimated that the numbers killed could be as high as 650,000. That's why I post "hundreds of thousands."

How they were killed and were are the bodies I don't know. Maybe the bodies are there and are just not being counted. I have to wait to try to find more information. Or it might be out there and I may not aware of it at this time.

Information in Iraq is hard to get but the study said over 90% of those asked produced a death certificate. I have also read figures that range from One million and as high as 2 million people displaced and half of them have left Iraq.

I don't want this to stray into WW2. If you want to discuss it then start another thread but to answer your post I believe it was dropped on Japan because they were not white. There was no reason to drop it, Japan was defeated and asking for peace but the US wanted to test the weapon and use it as an example to Russia. If it were Germany they would not have dropped it.
The study is crap. That's more deaths than the civil war. The people who did this "study" said the number could be as high as 950,000. This is transparent propaganda. If someone like pba believes it, that's all the more reason to question it's validity.

I'm done with this. Enjoy spreading your fictitious numbers, I'm going to go read some real news.
Study Claims Iraq's 'Excess' Death Toll Has Reached 655,000

By David Brown
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 11, 2006; A12



A team of American and Iraqi epidemiologists estimates that 655,000 more people have died in Iraq since coalition forces arrived in March 2003 than would have died if the invasion had not occurred.

The estimate, produced by interviewing residents during a random sampling of households throughout the country, is far higher than ones produced by other groups, including Iraq's government.

It is more than 20 times the estimate of 30,000 civilian deaths that President Bush gave in a speech in December. It is more than 10 times the estimate of roughly 50,000 civilian deaths made by the British-based Iraq Body Count research group.

The surveyors said they found a steady increase in mortality since the invasion, with a steeper rise in the last year that appears to reflect a worsening of violence as reported by the U.S. military, the news media and civilian groups. In the year ending in June, the team calculated Iraq's mortality rate to be roughly four times what it was the year before the war.

Of the total 655,000 estimated "excess deaths," 601,000 resulted from violence and the rest from disease and other causes, according to the study. This is about 500 unexpected violent deaths per day throughout the country.

The survey was done by Iraqi physicians and overseen by epidemiologists at Johns Hopkins University's Bloomberg School of Public Health. The findings are being published online today by the British medical journal the Lancet.

The same group in 2004 published an estimate of roughly 100,000 deaths in the first 18 months after the invasion. That figure was much higher than expected, and was controversial. The new study estimates that about 500,000 more Iraqis, both civilian and military, have died since then -- a finding likely to be equally controversial.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...006101001442_pf.html
Hamas acted on a very real fear of a US-sponsored coup

Washington's fingerprints are all over the chaos that has hit Palestinians. The last thing they now need is an envoy called Blair

By Jonathan Steele

Did they jump or were they pushed? Was Hamas's seizure of Fatah security offices in Gaza unprovoked, or a pre-emptive strike to forestall a coup by Fatah? After last week's turmoil, it becomes increasingly important to uncover its origins.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17915.htm
In the initial invasion the war was also in the South but it has become relatively quite except for Sadr's forces. There is fighting and attacks but minor in comparison to the North. The British did shoot demonstrations early on and tried to enforce a more repressive strict rule but have since backed off and have been criticized for allowing Sadr's forces and Shiite's to grow.

Remember when Iraqi forces arrested and detained British military personal. The Iraqi press and indepnedent and foreign media reported that they were caught with a car full of explosives and detonators. The corporate media was silent and made it appear as British forces were being resuced when the British army attacked a polices station and freed them.

The Iraq study stands and is recognized by the world as an independent study done by credible sources. They do explain their methodology and state their findings are an estimate. We know the deaths are higher then Bush will admit. In the hundreds of thousands.

The civil war in Gaza was instigated by the economic boycott and slow strangulation of the Palestinian people putting pressure on the situation. They then armed Fatah and Abbas who are selling out Palestine into "Bantutstans" along the lines of the former racist South Africa.

It is part of a strategy colonial powers have used for centuries of divide and rule. That's why we see civil wars in the 3 countries the US and Israel are targeting, Palestine, Iraq and Lebanon. They help create strife then aid one side to rule over another creating conditions for a civil war, while the corporations scoop up the resources.

The corporate media continue to be mouth pieces for government and corporate policies.

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×