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What Hamas Wants - New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/20/opinion/20yousef.html...h&emc=th&oref=slogin


Op-Ed Contributor

What Hamas Wants

By AHMED YOUSEF
Published: June 20, 2007
Gaza City


From the day Hamas won the general elections in 2006 it offered Fatah the chance of joining forces and forming a unity government. It tried to engage the international community to explain its platform for peace. It has consistently offered a 10-year cease-fire with the Israelis to try to create an atmosphere of calm in which we resolve our differences. Hamas even adhered to a unilateral cease-fire for 18 months in an effort to normalize the situation on the ground. None of these points appear to have been recognized in the press coverage of the last few days.

Nor has it been evident to many people in the West that the civil unrest in Gaza and the West Bank has been precipitated by the American and Israeli policy of arming elements of the Fatah opposition who want to attack Hamas and force us from office. For 18 months we have tried to find ways to coexist with Fatah, entering into a unity government, even conceding key positions in the cabinet to their and international demands, negotiating up until the last moment to try to provide security for all of our people on the streets of Gaza.

Sadly, it became apparent that not all officials from Fatah were negotiating in good faith. There were attempts on Mr. Haniya’s life last week, and eventually we were forced into trying to take control of a very dangerous situation in order to provide political stability and establish law and order.
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Old possum,

Now you're just spouting propaganda of the worse sort. Look at what they actually believe and how they act.

From the Hamas Covenant, Article 13.
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"A witness, who identified himself only as Amjad, said men were killed as their wives and children watched. They are executing them one by one,” Amjad, who lives in a building overlooking the Preventive Security complex, said by telephone. “They are carrying one of them on their shoulders, putting him on a sand dune, turning him around and shooting.’’

Hamas fighters tied up the Fatah cook, and tossed him off a building. I've know some bad messhall cooks, but that's a bit extreme.

Wounded Fatah were taken from hospital and executed.

If they treat fellow Palis in this manner, Israelis could expect better?
Hamas wants the complete destruction of Israel. They want to replace it with an Islamic state. This is clearly stated in their charter and conviently left out of this guy's editorial.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm


I find it ironic that the left extremists demand a purely secular government and society in our own country, but support a terrorist organization that wants to set up an oppressive theocracy somewhere else. They condemn our government for going to war, but will openly support another group that uses suicide bombers to kill civilians and are founded on the extermination of another people.

Not a whole lot of common sense happening here.
You are both right, Nash and interventor. I'm beginning to wonder whether it is even worth discussing anything with Pogo, and now that he is posting propaganda from Hamas my decision is becoming more clear. I can't believe that any decent American would read, much less post crap like this. And he doesn't understand why conservative label him "anti-American." I think there is some jihad going on in his brain!
It still amazes me how the left has undergone metamorphasis into the beliefs of the fascists of the forties. Whether tragedy or farce, I am uncertain.

A few years ago, the French ambassador to UK called Israel a shilly little country (to bypass TD filter) at a dinner party. Six months later, he was explaining his statement to a large jew -- St. Peter.
To begin with the rockets that were fired into Israel were not from Hamas. They abided by the cease fire and continually made offers for talks and peace. Despite Israel murdering their leaders and Palestinian civilians

The rockets are fired at Israel because of the occupation and settlements in Palestinian land and the slow strangling of Gaza. Israel controls their borders.

The civil war had been building since Hamas won the election. Fatah is notably corrupt and are in the process of selling out the Palestinian people for personal gain and power. Fatah was being armed by US and Israel through Egypt and Jordan and preparing for their own coup. The West inflamed the region by placing sanctions on the Palestinians starving them and increasing the suffering and tension.

Hamas was created during the first Palestinian uprising (intafata) in 1988. It was in response to Israel increased oppression, occupation, settlements and intransigence to peace and compliance with international law.

They realized armed struggle will only free Palestine from the occupation. Hamas are a fundamentalist group that set up charities, social services and schools, etc. They believe the UN had no right to give their land to European Jews and that Palestine should be one state and Islamic. They are a minority numbering n the thousands out of 3 million Palestinians, the majority secular who reject the idea of an Islamic State.

Hamas has styated it will abide by the will of the people and would never try to enforce an Islamic State. They also agreed to the two state solution if the Palestinian people voted for it, which they do.

Hamas' charter says it tolerant of all religions and they can practice freely in Palestine and all have rights. They do not call for the extermination of expulsion of Jews.

Zionism claims all of Palestine and does not accept the right of the Palestinians to their legal state in Palestine.

The French official did make the remark about Israel because of it's aggression, arrogance,murder and refusal to abid by International Law.
Pogo, are you even reading these posts? What part of "obliterate" do you not understand? How can you say that Hamas does not want to exterminate the Jews when they openly wage jihad on them and say that their country should be "obliterated"? It's right there in black and white. I provided the link so you can read their entire charter for yourself. Personally, it scared the hell out of me.

Hamas absolutely wants an Islamic state. Article 20, second paragraph, first sentence.

"The Islamic spirit is what should prevail in every Moslem society. "

That completely contradicts what you just said. You do realize you're supporting a terrorist organization, don't you?
The Mexicans would no doubt like to have Texas back. Do they sit on the border and fire missiles? NO. The official government was not firing the missiles, but who do you think was? Hamas. They are terrorists, they have said so in their own charter. Fatah was not shooting at the Israeli's; Hamas was.

The West placed sanctions because the fools elected terrorists as a government. I don't blame the West. If you want to deal with us, don't support our enemies. Their people made that choice.

Who really gives a sh*t what Hamas wants? They are terrorists, nothing more. And you say they believe the UN had no right to give their land to Jews? But you also say it was Israel that didn't abide by international law? Apparently international law, that gave Israel the land, only applies if you agree with it.
"Hamas was created during the first Palestinian uprising (intafata) in 1988. It was in response to Israel increased oppression, occupation, settlements and intransigence to peace and compliance with international law."
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The intafada was Arafat's rejection of Israel's offer to turnover west bank and Gaza and share part of Jerusaleum after the Camp David accords.
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"Hamas are a fundamentalist group that set up charities, social services and schools, etc."
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Yes, in the spirit of political machine to indoctrinate people to their extremist beliefs (3-year olds in suicide bomber costumes) and to launder funds raised from naive donors (hope you didn't list yours as a tax deduction).
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"Hamas has stated it will abide by the will of the people and would never try to enforce an Islamic State."
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Hamas informed the 2,000 Pali christians, stupid enough or unlucky enough to live in Gaza, that women must dress like muslim women and all are subject to sharia (just 24 hours after taking over).
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Old possum,

You've gone from mildly amusing to just a sad tool of the most extreme elements. I remember seeing pictures of the Bundists, natavist wing of the America-firsters, KKK, Norman Thomas and his socialists, and such at rallies together during the thirties. Dam, if its not coming full circle. Still can't decide if tragedy, farce or tragi-comedy.
interventor

"Hamas was created during the first Palestinian uprising (intafata) in 1988. It was in response to Israel increased oppression, occupation, settlements and intransigence to peace and compliance with international law."
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The intafada was Arafat's rejection of Israel's offer to turnover west bank and Gaza and share part of Jerusaleum after the Camp David accords.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Hamas are a fundamentalist group that set up charities, social services and schools, etc."
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Yes, in the spirit of political machine to indoctrinate people to their extremist beliefs (3-year olds in suicide bomber costumes) and to launder funds raised from naive donors (hope you didn't list yours as a tax deduction).
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Hamas has stated it will abide by the will of the people and would never try to enforce an Islamic State."
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hamas informed the 2,000 Pali christians, stupid enough or unlucky enough to live in Gaza, that women must dress like muslim women and all are subject to sharia (just 24 hours after taking over).
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Old possum,

You've gone from mildly amusing to just a sad tool of the most extreme elements. I remember seeing pictures of the Bundists, natavist wing of the America-firsters, KKK, Norman Thomas and his socialists, and such at rallies together during the thirties. Dam, if its not coming full circle. Still can't decide if tragedy, farce or tragi-comedy.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

You are confusing the first uprising (Intifada) with the 2nd in 2000. The reason the second one occurred was because rafter the first Oslo agreement in 93 repression and the illegal settlements continued. Instead of things getting better for the Palestinians things got worse. The second uprising was triggered when Sharon arrogantly paraded around the site of the Mosque and temple with a huge amount of soldiers. Young Palestinian youths began to throw stones and the soldiers opened firing killing 2 or 3 and wounding about a dozen. This was the spark that ignited the second uprising. It's an uprising against an occupation of land legally recognized as Palestinian which Israel stole in it's 1967 invasion.

Hamas set up charities that served the Palestinian people who are suffering and in need from Israelis occupation and repression.

Hamas has not "informed" Christian women to cover their heads. Some Christian women said there were cases of individual Hamas soldiers telling them to cover their heads but Hamas has not required it.

You'll have to do better then insults to cover up for your ignorance.
NashBama

Pogo, are you even reading these posts? What part of "obliterate" do you not understand? How can you say that Hamas does not want to exterminate the Jews when they openly wage jihad on them and say that their country should be "obliterated"? It's right there in black and white. I provided the link so you can read their entire charter for yourself. Personally, it scared the hell out of me.

Hamas absolutely wants an Islamic state. Article 20, second paragraph, first sentence.

"The Islamic spirit is what should prevail in every Moslem society. "

That completely contradicts what you just said. You do realize you're supporting a terrorist organization, don't you?

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hamas "struggles" against Israelis occupation. The suicide bombers are in response to Israelis murders and repression against the Palestinian people. After every suicide bombing Hamas issues a statement on the exact reason for their retaliation.

Yes, they are a fundamentalist group that believes in the one state of Palestine and it must be Islamic. They also are a relatively small group that numbers in the thousands out of 3 million Palestinians. The majority of the Palestinians are secular and reject an Islamic State.

They are considered a terrorist organization because of the attacks on civilians, which they had stopped in their truce. They have also stated they will end suicide bombings when Israel ends their occupation of the land they stole in the 1967 invasion and stops killing Palestinian civilians. Israel has killed 3 times the number of civilians then the Palestinians have.

Zionism states the land must be Jewish and does not recognize the right of a Palestinian State. Israelis occupation, repression, stealing land and water while ethnically cleansing the land is terrorism

US kills hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq to steal their oil, that's also terrorism.
aubfire1

The Mexicans would no doubt like to have Texas back. Do they sit on the border and fire missiles? NO. The official government was not firing the missiles, but who do you think was? Hamas. They are terrorists, they have said so in their own charter. Fatah was not shooting at the Israeli's; Hamas was.

The West placed sanctions because the fools elected terrorists as a government. I don't blame the West. If you want to deal with us, don't support our enemies. Their people made that choice.

Who really gives a sh*t what Hamas wants? They are terrorists, nothing more. And you say they believe the UN had no right to give their land to Jews? But you also say it was Israel that didn't abide by international law? Apparently international law, that gave Israel the land, only applies if you agree with it.

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The UN violated it's own charter when it partitioned Palestine and gave half to the European Jews. It's charter says it's up to the people of the region to vote on it's status. Zionists were terrorist groups that carried out terrorist attacks against Palestinians and the British, who still had jurisdiction from the at the time from the League of Nations. The Zionist terrorist groups drove the British from the region.

What would be your reaction if the UN decided to partition America back to Native Americans? And gave back Texas, and the South West to Mexico?

The Hamas charter never says they are a "terrorist group."

Fatah also had attacked Israel and Arafat was the leader of Fatah.

People interested in peace and justice care what Hamas wants. They have have called a tuce, which Israel did not honor, nor Fatah and the US and they have asked to sit down and negotiate. Israel and the US refuse and instead
put sanctions on the people casuing more suffering. They hoped the people would blame Hamas and make it easy for Fatah to take control but it backfired and it's why we see Bush and Olmert rushing to give the money owed the Palestinains to Abbas otherwise Fatah will meet the same fate in the West Bank as they did in Gaza.

Israel wanst to steal the land and the US wanst to control the region. That's the bottom line.
Nashbama:

Amazing, you're still not reading the posts. Go back and read the Hamas charter. In a nutshell, they want to eliminate israel, or as they call them the invading zionists, and force islam on everyone else. I've already pasted direct quotes that prove this, go back and read it yourself.


NashBama

(Pogo) "US kills hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq to steal their oil, that's also terrorism."


That's a blatant lie and you know it. I can tolerate ignorance to a point, but that's crossing the line. I don't know how many different ways we have to prove that to be BS before it finally dawns on you.

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I have read the Hamas charter. It's long and filled with quotes from the Quran. They were invaded by the European Zionist movement starting in the 1880's who came and took the land with violence and terror and continue to carry out their repression, murder and ethnic cleansing today. Zionism believes that Palestine must be the bible land of Israel. With bible borders. They do not believe in the two states.

Hamas believes in one state of Palestine, so do millons of other people except many don't believe it has to be an Islamic State.

The quotes you are using sound more like a western translation which twists it. Especailly if you get it from an Israel web site. You have to read the Arab translation.

Either way when it speaks about ending Israel they are not calling for the extermination of the Jews. That's the spin the corporate media play.

US has killed hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq so they can steal their oil. That's terrorism.
quote:
US has killed hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq so they can steal their oil. That's terrorism.


No, that's a lie.

What part of jihad do you not understand? What part of obliterate do you not understand? The "corporate" media isn't spinning anything, your terrorist sympathizing "progressive" websites are and you're falling for it.
Jihad means "to struggle," and the Palestinians are currently struggling to free themselves from Israelis occupation. They have recognized the right of Israel to exist, which stole 78% of their land and now occupies the remaining 22%. The majority of the Palestinians have agreed to accept the 22% if Israel will abide by International law and withdraw from the 22% they stole in their 67 invasion and allow the war refugees from the 1948 War their legal right under international law to return to their land and homes in Israel.

Israel refuses and no matter what the Palestinians do Israel continues to take more and more land for their settlements. Zionism doesn't accept the right of a Palestinian State and it's right in Likud's platform. Hamas sees armed struggle as their only alternative.Israel enforces it's occupation through military force.

Hamas have recently agreed to lay down their arms and negotiate. They called for a 10 year truce to negotiate a settlement. They have agreed to the two states if it is the will of the Palestinian people. They can still oppose the right of Israel to exist but struggle against it peacefully, through court and through ideas.

I don't recall them using the word "obliterate," which is what you base your post on. I read their charter, years ago. It hasn't changed. You are reading a rewrite from some western source. I have seen various rewrites that change particular phrases.

They do not recognize the legitimacy of the State of Israel and believe it must be replaced with an Islamic State but they never call for the extermination or expulsion of the Jews. They even state they are tolerant of all religions but Palestine was Islamic since the 7th century and must remain so. But they have shown they are flexible. But their peace initiatives were met with rejections, sanctions and violence.
No, jihad means "holy struggle". The context it is used in is for holy war.

The word "obliterate" is in their charter, go look for yourself. I'm sure your leftist sources change that word like you said to con people like you into believing their rhetoric.

Hamas is known throughout the world as a terrorist organization that has murdered countless people and you are supporting them. Open your eyes for once and look at what you're saying.
Pogo,

Jihad, by demonstration, as well as definition, means kill the infadels. You have ignored most of what has happen in the last ten years.

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The old claim of 655,000 was patently false. It works out to 500 per day for the time period claimed. During WW II, the US lost 300 per day on average for a total of 405,000. The 300 per day was in the most intense combat ever experienced by the US military. Men flew thru flak; walked, crawled or ran into machine gun fire, artillery fire and mine fields; were bombed and torpedoed; and thru land crawling with malaria and yellow fever to attain the 300 per day.

The 655,000 was based on a cluster sample, my stat sampling professor at CUNY would have flunked me for proposing. It was a telephone sample in a country where only the Ba'athist had phones -- remember the sample that predicted Wilkie winning the presidency, when most phones belonged to Republicans?

Lastly, where are the bodies? Saddam's killing fields of 300,000 to 400,000 discovered so far, are in about 300 mass graves. From the ones I've seen, the grave sites are size of football fields. Does someone have disintegrator guns or, perhaps, you believe ovens are located in the desert?

Where are the bodies you claim exist?
What many people do not, and probably will not ever understand is that if the shoe were on the other foot, and some government were doing the same thing to them what the Israelis have been doing to the Palestinians for decades, and what our own government is doing to the people in Iraq, they would be responding exactly the same -- or worse -- than the people they are so quick to label as "terrorists" or "jihadis". Can you imagine what the good people of Alabama would be doing if they woke up one day and saw Chinese or Russian or Japanese tanks rolling down Woodward or Florence Avenues? Only then they would politely refer to themselves as "patriots" or "freedom fighters" as they did everything in their power to expell the oppressors.

The American media by and large gives people the impression that all Palestinians or Iraqis are all a bunch of crazy people who just wake up some days and decide that today would be a good day to go into a crowded marketplace or bus and blow myself up, taking as many innocent people with me as possible. The media portrays arabs as a sub-human race who place no value on human life. But the truth of the matter, as I have found out first hand by living and travelling in the Middle East, is that these people are fundamentally no different from you or me.

I have sometimes asked myself the question, what would it take for me to want to strap a bunch of explosives on my back and walk or drive into a crowd of people and blow myself up? Perhaps if somebody or some government came and bull-dozed my home, or my parents' home, destroying in minutes what I or my family had worked our whole live to build? Or perhaps if someone or some government had dropped a 500 pound bomb (mistakenly or intentionally) on my family, killing my children or my parents or siblings. It is precisely these types of things which motivate the so-called "terrorists" or "insurgents" to attack Israeli and/or American citizens.

It is very convenient to believe that our enemies are somehow not as "human" as ourselves. They don't love their children and families like we do. In fact, as several brain-washed posters on here like to "remind" us, they train their children from birth to be suicide bombers. You or I might hope that some day our children will grow up and go to college and get a good job and have a nice comfortable life. Not them. They all hope and pray that one day their children will grow up to be suicide bombers! They are just a bunch of crazy, violence-loving people and they deserve to die. And these are the same people who go to church every Sunday and present themselves as good Christian folks trying to do God's work here on Earth. Yet their hearts are filled with hatred and prejudice.

We are ALL God's children. EVERY one. So consider yourself forewarned, and don't be too surprised if when your work here on this Earth is done and reach your day of reckoning with your Creator and you are denied entry into the Pearly Gates. And when you ask "her" why, she will tell you, "You should've listened to Peace Brother". Amen
Most Americans (and obviously Peace Brother and Pogo) have no earthly idea the propaganda fed to the Arab and Moslim world on a daily basis.

Jews are blamed for every crime, economic downturn and natural calamity that befalls the world -- literally. The typical arab moslim believes all his troubles are caused by the presence of jews upon this earth.

Stories of jewish plots abound, of which, Greater Israel is the most common. According to this plot, jews are planning to expand Israel from the banks of the Nile to the banks of Baghdad.

I have spoken with arabs living in their native lands of Iraq, Kuwait and Egypt. These were not fanatics or hard liners, just ordinary men with perhaps a high school education and jobs varying fro heavy equipment operator to clerk.

They believed all the hardships they faced were the fault of a jewish conspiracy -- every crime and evey economic problem. They also believed in the Greater Israel plot. When I asked them the population of Israel, they got that right -- about 6 million with 5.5 million jews and 500,000 or so arabs including Druze, christian, and moslim. When I asked about the jewish population of the US and the world, they overestimated to the extreme. They believed about 40 to 50 million jews lived in the US (about 6.5 million actually) and worldwide about 75 million (about 13.5 million in total). When I told them the actual numbers, they believed me, but still could not conceive that their problems were not caused by the jew. Even, when I showed them there were not enough jews to populate the Greater Israel. They are propagandised from childhood up. Add, to that the arab mindset that nothing is ever their fault and the result is invulnerable ignorance and spawning ground for murderous fanatics.
Good post Peace Brother. The reason Arabs and Muslims are dehumanized, by both the US and Israel, is because they want to steal their land and resources. All countries use this propaganda technique. Makes it easier for the people to accept killing them and committing atrocities against them. Life under occupation is repressive, dehumanizing and has little to no future. It causes people to pick up arms. As the saying goes, "Suicide Bombers are the poor people's airforce." The Palestinian people are a poor people and don't even have an army.

Jihad means to struggle and in this case Hamas is using it as a Holy Struggle to free Palestine from occupation. The land has been Arab since the 7th century. It does not mean "Kill Infidels."

The word "obliterate" is not in their charter but they may use the word "abolish" as they do not see any legitimacy in the State of Israel. They turned to arm struggle because Israel has never been interested in peace, just taking the land.

Zionists have always claimed all of Palestine and a "Greater Israel." If you checkout the Israeli press you'll find it. The Israeli government has never declared it's borders or renounced the Zionists claim.

I use to read the Israel press for a few years during the uprising and it is also filled with fear and propaganda so they Israeli people support the Israeli war machine and territorial conquests and crimes. I know that the Arab governments have used Israel as a scapegoat to cover for their repression, greed, corruption and failures. I learned this through Arab writers, like the late Edward Said, who I read in the alternative progressive sites. But Israelis aggression, repression, ethnic cleansing, territorial expansions and intransigence to peace is the main source of instability in the region. Up until the US invasion that is.

The Arab League has agreed to peace and recognition, that includes, the Palestinians, Iran, Syria, etc, if Israel will abide by International Law. Israel refuses and continues it's repression and expansion while playing the victim.

Americans are also propagandized because of US business and military interests in the region.

As far as the Iraq civilian deaths study John Hopkins and Lancelt are two of them most respected in their fields. I will try to check the program, "Democracy Now's" archives for their interview, (when I get a chance) but a lot of the bodies were burned or destroyed in "Shock and Awe" and the destruction of Fallujah and such. Others were buried in the families yard.

US has constantly denied war crimes, like the use of White Phosphorus against civilians only to be proven wrong. I have little faith in their credibility and the corporatew media. I really wonder why others do.
Then why do you have unlimited, unwaivering faith in extremist theories and fringe web sites? You take what they say as if it were written in stone, do not even bother to question it or research how they came to their unsubstantiated conclusions, and then chide the rest of us for being ignorant. Every time you post the non-sense and propaganda and back it up by studies and such from your supposedly reputed "sources," we tear it apart right in front of your eyes using nothing but fact and logic.

I've read you sources like the Hopkins study. I tore it apart in a previous post. The researchers that conducted it didn't even claim it to be accurate. I explained, from their own reports, how it was conducted. You are using inconclusive rubbish to substantiate mindless ranting and raving. The proof we offered was from Johns Hopkins themselves--your very source; now would you like to disagree with your source to argue with us?

Nash and interventor have posted the charter of Hamas, and directly, logically, and factually proven you wrong. You take random pieces of the Johns Hopkins study that benefit your blatantly one-sided and prejudiced arguments out of context and ignore the truth, as stated by the researchers themselves, yet argue that we should not take Hamas' charter out of context. You claim mistranslation and misquotation whenever facts are presented, yet you cannot present any factual evidence of any of your outrageous claims.

You sir, are a muse of the enemy; their best friend if you will. What you choose to overlook with your blind hatred for authority, power, and wealth is that they will turn on you the minute you are not beneficial to them any longer. You support them at the cost of all Americans. Your arguments are hypocritical and disgraceful. I am glad there are decent Americans, who put Americans first, to protect this fine country while people like you attempt to destroy it internally.

I try not to directly insult people, but I like some others, will not sit idly by while you blatantly lie about Americans, our military, and our way of life. Should you be able to provide credible, documented proof of any of your outrageous claims, I will gladly entertain that with an open mind. But the baseless lies, backed up by misrepresentation of facts, and nonsense conspiracy theories and enemy propaganda that you have been posting shall not sway me or any other logical, sane American, or any reasonable human for that matter.
When someone fails to understand logic and refuses to acknowledge pure evidence, that someone has been brainwashed. I know that's a term thrown around a lot lately, but I'm convinced that Pogo's ability to reason has been lost. That's not an insult, it's the truth. When someone refuses to believe photographic evidence in favor of the opinions of some random columnist, their state of mind is questionable.

I know people who have served in Iraq personally, they did not murder civilians for oil. There are a few vets on these boards, I can't speak for them but I'm pretty sure they would say the same thing. They did not kill civilians for oil.

Bonaroo had about 80k people, look at the photos. That's a huge mass of folks. Pogo is claiming that Americans murdered more than 8 bonaroos within 4 years. Pogo is claiming Americans murdered the equivalent of the total population of about 10 Shoals in 48 months. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand just how ridiculous of a statement that is.

Now he's spouting anti-semite sentiment and supporting terrorist groups that have openly said they wanted to obliterate Israel and the Jewish people. I see that as no different than supporting Nazis.

I've looked at some of those sites Pogo loves so much, it's frightening that someone could actually consider that total factual and unbiased. That's like looking to the supermarket tabloids for the news. It would be funny if he wasn't so serious.
aubfire1,

You said it succintly!

Pogo,

As far as the Iraq civilian deaths study John Hopkins and Lancelt are two of them most respected in their fields. I will try to check the program, "Democracy Now's" archives for their interview, (when I get a chance) but a lot of the bodies were burned or destroyed in "Shock and Awe" and the destruction of Fallujah and such. Others were buried in the families yard.
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The "Schock and Awe" strategy was specifically designed to strike definite targets with precision weapons and succeeded. This was not the mass bombings of WWII with a thousand planes in formation dropping double block buster bombs and delayed incendiaries. Nor, was it the carpet bombings of Viet Nam, but precision weapons at precise targets. Individual buildings were destroyed. I've seen several of them, and just a few yards away are undamaged buildings. Most of these buildinga are in government areas or military compounds, not near housing areas. Certainly, there is collateral damage and missiles that go off course. But, no way could such weapons kill 655,000 civilains. We didn't kill but about 7,260 Iraqi military and interior police during the war.

And, if buried in families yards, every yard would be full of bodies. If left in the open there would be Killing Field sized patches of bone and packs of jackals. They don't exist.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ US has constantly denied war crimes, like the use of White Phosphorus against civilians only to be proven wrong. I have little faith in their credibility and the corporatew media. I really wonder why others do.
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Interventor: Again, bad information and no understanding of what you're talking about.

Here is a link http://www.crimesofwar.org/onnews/news-fallujah3.html

The website appears liberal, not overtly leftist.

"Incendiary weapons like white phosphorus are governed by another treaty -- the 1980 Protocol III to the Convention on Conventional Weapons. This defines incendiary weapons as primarily designed "to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat or a combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target." (The fact that heat or flame is produced by a chemical reaction does not make them chemical weapons, since it is not a case of a substance that causes death or injury by chemical action on the victim's "life processes")

The United States is not a party to the Incendiary Weapons Protocol -- but in any case, the treaty adds little to existing law, except a blanket restriction on dropping incendiary weapons from the air against military objectives "located within a concentration of civilians" (as was done in the fire-bombing of German cities like Dresden in World War II). Since the weapons used in Fallujah were shells, not bombs, this provision would not in any case be relevant."

Interventor: The US is not a signatory, the ban is against use from aircraft, and all use of force is banned against civilians, including bullets.

"There is no question that white phosphorus shells were used to target locations in Fallujah where insurgent fighters were believed to be hiding. An account by US soldiers in the army journal Field Artillery published in March 2005 describes their use in detail: "WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for [smoke]screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon aginst the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE [high explosive]. We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."


Interventor: Did you get the part about insurgent fighters? They don't wear uniforms, so may appear as civilians, except that they happen to be shooting at you.

"Another report that has been widely quoted over the last few days was written by a journalist from the North County Times embedded with marines during earlier fighting in Fallujah. He describes marines sending a mixture of burning white phosphorus and high explosives into buildings where insurgents have been sighted.

This week Pentagon spokesman Lt. Col. Barry Venable said that "U.S. forces used white phosphorus both in its classic screening mechanism and...when they encountered insurgents who were in foxholes and other covered positions who they could not dislodge in any other way."

Interventor: As I said before!

"The tests that should therefore be applied to the U.S. use of white phosphorus munitions are the standard rules provided in the laws of war for the use of any weapon. First, it is always unlawful to use force directly against civilians, or to carry out an attack where the expected level of harm to civilians is excessive in proportion to the military advantage expected. Secondly, it is forbidden to use weapons that cause "superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering." That would probably cover the use of white phosphorus in some weapons -- e.g. anti-personnel bullets -- but the United States could plausibly argue that the use of white phosphorus munitions to flush insurgents out of hiding places is militarily justifiable and therefore not unlawful."

Interventor: Again, no treaty and no unlawful use! Pogo and his buddies think the US should approach every situation like a police hostage scenario, where hostage negotiators talk with the jehadim while determining which are the bad guys. And, all this during a firefight! Did you know its against the Geneva Convention to appear as a civilian while bearing arms?
The study is accurate and credible. I heard the researchers interviewed on the radio show Democracy Now. They described and defended their methodology. You didn't "tear it apart" or discredit it in any way. These researchers are professionals and are well respected. I will try to find the program over the weekend when I should have some time. Actually I don't recall them saying that the study was not accurate. And why would they? If they thought it wasn't accurate they wouldn't have published it.

I read the Hamas charter and have it in my old files in another computer which I can't access at this time. It took me a while to find it but it was posted through a Palestinian site. That's the most accurate site you will find, the actual authors and key words are important. They do not recognize the legitimacy of the State of Israel. Zionism doesn't recognize the right of a Palestinian State. And Israelis actions are carrying it out.

Hamas has never call for the extermination of the Jews, which the term "obliterate" implies. They state they are a tolerant religion and use quotes from the Quran. All people and religions can exist within their Islamic State but they are fundamentalists and believe the state must be Islamic. The State of Israel is a Jewish State and it's illegal to even campaign against the idea.

Hamas is really only a small group numbering in the thousands out of 3 and half million Palestinians, the majority are secular and Palestine will not be an Islamic State.

Hamas has abided by a truce and have agreed to sit down and negotiate a settlement. They won the Palestinian election and are the legal representatives. They called for a ten year truce but Israel must stop kiling their leaders and expanding their illegal settlements in Palestinians land. Israel refuses and conitnues to murder, repress and steal land.

My posts are accurate. The alternative progressive press has consistently "got the story right" and provided accurate and reliable information that was excluded from the corporate media. The corporate media is not reliable and present the news according to corporate interests.

I have followed events in Cuba since the 1970's have seen documentaries that were aired right on PBS stations about it. I have a friend who went to Cuba and I have met and heard numerous people of many different profession who also went. I even once met a Cuban American who visits his family there and told me it's not as bad as the spin tells us. Funny how you will discount left and progressive sites then post a right wing Cuabn site as legitimate. Talk about brain washing.

The US invaded Iraq for the oil. The latest Iraqi bill in their congress to sign over the major share of royalties form oil sales to US companies is the first of Bush's and the democratic congress' so called "Bench Marks" of success. The soldiers are lied too as are the American people but those who have the capability to think for themselves and connect lies with events can see what's happening.

The corporate media lied about "Shock and Awe" and the images were show by Aljazeera. The world saw them. They were censored in the US. The reason they were censored was because they don't want the American people to know the truth because they know the American people will ot agree and ask deeper questions and will stop the mass killing.

It is against the Geneva Convention, (I believe) to use bombs and such weapons when civilians are present in the area. I believe that it is also not legal to use them against soldiers but only as illumination devices and along those lines. The resistance fighters in Iraq are a homegrown resistance and don't have "uniforms." Chemical weapons are not to be used on soldiers or positions. Whether we sign a treaty or not certain crimes are crimes against humanity. As Martin Luther King liked to point out, "Everything Hitler did was legal."

The US was forced to admit, after it first lied, that they used White phosphorus in civilian areas to "flush out" fighters that were hiding during their siege of Fullijah, as the article correctly states. I believe using chemical weapons on soldiers is a war crime and using them in civilian areas is also.
Again, the sheer number of deaths is not credible for low intensity combat, especially involving precision weapons and no massing of civilians and are in excess of high intensity casualties experienced in WWII.

If the MSM lied about shock and awe, what weapons were deployed. Do you infer that B-52s, B-1s, and B-2s were deployed enmass to destroy entire sectors of Iraqi cities? If so, please state where -- that is easily checked. Cruise missiles are expensive and the US does not maintain fleets of them for enmass destruction. Artillery would result in whole sector destruction. If so, where? Chemical weapons might destroy such numbers, are you accusing US of chemical weapons deployment? Most of our chemical munitions are old and leaky, thus not deployable. If by small arms, with at best a one in ten hit ratio, it would take 6,550,000 rounds. Not feasible. How were they killed?
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"It is against the Geneva Convention, (I believe) to use bombs and such weapons when civilians are present in the area. I believe that it is also not legal to use them against soldiers but only as illumination devices and along those lines. The resistance fighters in Iraq are a homegrown resistance and don't have "uniforms." Chemical weapons are not to be used on soldiers or positions. Whether we sign a treaty or not certain crimes are crimes against humanity."

There is a general article against force against civilians not involved in combat in the Geneva Convention. White Phosphorous is defined as an incendiary weapon, not chemical and have been used since 1940, at least. It is quite legal to use against combatants. US, UK and other forces use WP grenades, mortar rounds, and artillery shells. Hand grenades were used against the combatants in Iraq. The combatants were dressed in civilian clothing without identifying emblems such as scarfs, hats, armbands, etc. Solely the jehadim were in violation of the Geneva Convention by wearing no identification and operating using human shields. Wishing something to be illegal or a war crime does not make it so. It only makes it a fantasy.
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"The US was forced to admit, after it first lied, that they used White phosphorus in civilian areas to "flush out" fighters that were hiding during their siege of Fullijah, as the article correctly states. I believe using chemical weapons on soldiers is a war crime and using them in civilian areas is also."

See above. Initial denial was because no body checked with the troops. Embarassing, but hardly a lie.

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