What happens when you dont pay your bill.......

The homeowner said:

"I thought they'd come out and put it out, even if you hadn't paid your $75, but I was wrong," said Gene Cranick.

Why does anyone think they are entitled to the service if they dont pay for it, either through their city taxes or through the $75.00 annual fee that they were offered to extend the service to the county......

I feel sorry for the family but if I don't have insurance on my house, nobody pays to rebuild it.
It seems it was very plain that for the service you pay the fee. I would bet all residents have paid up by now.

I've tried to come up with a tactful response, but I can't. To even suggest that it was appropriate to let this family's home burn over a missed $75 fee is truly detestable.

I think b50m had the right line of thought with the insurance comparison. To really think about this, you have to ignore your emotional response. I agree, it was out there that they didnt put it out once they arrived at the neighbors house (who had payed) to respond to his concerns. But, had this area not had fire coverage period, would we blame the neighboring city or county for not responding to a fire outside their area? If there is a break in out in Rogersville and no police on duty, do we blame Florence PD for not responding? It was not the duty of the town to extend their fire coverage to the county. The county does not pay for it via taxes.

And from what I understand, it wasnt missed, sorry if my title mislead anyone. The homeowner purposely did not pay for the service. As he said, he thought they would respond regardless......

Jeepin'

Each year, Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton. But the Cranicks did not pay.
The mayor said if homeowners don't pay, they're out of luck.


It was made very plain. They knew ahead of time. Just like I pay a garbage fee each month. I don't pay, they don't pick up the garbage. The county has to either use a volunteer department or pay the city. Same as water, garbage, power, etc.

agreed dolemitejb.

if i came home and saw my neighbor's house burning, i would help any way that i could. i would not care if, perhaps, they had borrowed my weed whacker and not returned it or maybe their kids bounced a ball through my window (just guessing that's around $75). i would just want to help them and ensure everyone's safety. What if a child or elderly person had burned to death? this is not a "oh they didn't have the insurance, screw them" type of situation. the firefighters could have easily put out the fire and charged an "emergency" sum for responding since the people did not pay the fee. they could have publicized how wonderful the department was to respond to the needs of the community, and they could have used the situation to encourage others to pay the fee, increasing their profitability in the long run. driving the firetrucks out to witness it burning was the icing on the cake. i hope the backlash they are receiving was worth the $75.

Updated: http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news...-fire-104113489.html

Do they not have a volunteer fire department where they live? I read the story and didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by Skiddles_98:


Updated: http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news...-fire-104113489.html

Thanks for the updated link. I guess this answers my question.

quote:

"It's not South Fulton's problem. It's not Union City's problem. It's the county's problem. There is no county fire department."

Let me ask this question, and you can only answer yes or no. If your neighbor quit paying their garbage pickup fee because they (the garbage company) come out and pick yours up anyway, and the garbage company just let their trash pile up on the side of the road next door to your house, would you eventually pay their garbage bill to get their garbage picked up?

Yes or No only....

IF you answered yes, do you honestly think that neighbor would EVER pay for that service again?

IF you answered no, would you blame the garbage man for not picking up the trash next door, or would you blame your neighbor?



This is not black and white, I give you that, and I'm on the fence simply because they eventually responded to the neighbors field burning and could have gone ahead and put it out, but where do you draw the line on how you allow people to take advantage of the system?

Another good piece of information about the situation:

"If somebody is trapped in the house we're going to go because life safety is number one"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lets Go Jeepin':
Let me ask this question, and you can only answer yes or no. If your neighbor quit paying their garbage pickup fee because they (the garbage company) come out and pick yours up anyway, and the garbage company just let their trash pile up on the side of the road next door to your house, would you eventually pay their garbage bill to get their garbage picked up?

Yes or No only....

IF you answered yes, do you honestly think that neighbor would EVER pay for that service again?

IF you answered no, would you blame the garbage man for not picking up the trash next door, or would you blame your neighbor?
[QUOTE]

honestly, i wouldn't care, they could just throw it in my cans. i've got bigger things to worry about. like how is my mom's cancer progressing? or how am i going to pay that whopper of a utility bill since my husband just got laid off? or... what if my house burned down??
but now, if they threw in a dead skunk, then i might get upset. or i might squish it in one of those "pop n lock" containers they're always advertising--the ones that keep things super fresh--and decorate it all pretty and leave it on their porch for their birthday. or christmas eve. or even thanksgiving, because there's nothing like a great neighbor to be thankful for.

quote:

Originally posted by dolemitejb:
I've tried to come up with a tactful response, but I can't. To even suggest that it was appropriate to let this family's home burn over a missed $75 fee is truly detestable.

I agree dolemite. I see both sides and no one is entitled to anything but the golden rule still should have applied -- do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. I guess you reap what you sow applies to the man that didn't pay his money, but it also applies to those that stood by and did nothing and said "oh well guess you should've listened". I hope nothing bad happens to them......

Where I grew up, the volunteers still would have put out the fire even if you hadn't paid the money. They said they wouldn't but they did for several neighbors back then that didn't pay. They might not have gone at it with full gusto of saving everything but they would have done what they could to mitigate the damage. When you love your neighbors and you take care of your community you do whatever it takes regardless of a whopping $75 fee. In this economy you have to have some common sense.

No, if you don't have insurance no one rebuilds your house but $75 isn't insurance -- it is a fee for a service. I am quite sure had the Fire Department responded and then sent the guy a bill for the $75 he would have paid it after the fact, but they did nothing so now they get bad press. I seriously think this town needs to check itself that they let this guy basically be an example to others. Pay up or lose everything and we'll stand by and drink a beer and watch.

Great humanity there. No, no one is entitled to services for free, but they could have done this differently.

Actually Jeepin -- the articles of late about how Tuscumbia has been responding to the Colbert Heights area is a perfect example. They have been doing it all alone for free and now they want to either annex the town in or not service the community. It is a catch 22 but I don't see how anyone can just stand by and watch and say Nope can't help you. Seems to me some sort of Good Samaritan law might apply here.

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:
Each year, Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton. But the Cranicks did not pay.
The mayor said if homeowners don't pay, they're out of luck.


It was made very plain. They knew ahead of time. Just like I pay a garbage fee each month. I don't pay, they don't pick up the garbage. The county has to either use a volunteer department or pay the city. Same as water, garbage, power, etc.

Actually, they will still pick up your garbage but if you don't pay the bill they will turn off all of your utilities since it is bundled together.

If the city wanted to demand the fee they could put it in a $2 service charge on everyone's utility bill every month and require it be paid. THat would spread it out and more people would be willing to pay it I bet instead of a lump sum. I'm sure their wonderful city leaders haven't considered that though.

Additional victims are everyone living in that zip code. Assuming they had homeowner's insurance, the insurance company will be out at least a hundred thousand, and WILL recover their money thru increasing premiums in the area.

This is the reason that some counties have passed fire fees, which are collected as part of your taxes. I believe there is a proposal to increase the fees from $ 35.00 to $ 50.00 in some counties. As I'm usually not supportive of tax increases, this is one issue that I would vote in favor of.

There should have been stipulation in the order that if they do not pay said fee, they will come out and fight the fire, but the owner will be responsible for all costs involved.

I'm sorry but garbage is garbage. Take it to a dump. But a house is a house. You eat there, sleep there, etc........ BIG difference

For the firefighters to just watch your HOUSE burn down is ridiculous. Put the fire out and bill them for it. Have it sent to collections if they don't pay it, but at the expense of a house being destroyed, come on.....

quote:

For the firefighters to just watch your HOUSE burn down is ridiculous. Put the fire out and bill them for it. Have it sent to collections if they don't pay it, but at the expense of a house being destroyed, come on.....

OKAY then I would know I would only have to pay $75 IF my house burns down. Everyone figures this out and there is no more fire department. Try to go to the convenience store and walk out without paying your local taxes and see how far you get.

this family needs to sue and the jerks who just stood there and watched their house burn down can burn in hell when the time comes

50 dollars per property add up to 10's of millions of dollars.. it doesn't take that kind of money to operate a fire dept.. it's another rip off.. and then they still take subsidies and are always complaining their equipment isn't up to par.. how can it not be? I hate freaking government more every day

I would think the moral implications alone would promt the FIREFIGHTERS to turn on the water. When I read this all I could think of is what a bunch of heros.

quote:

Originally posted by martyr:
50 dollars per property add up to 10's of millions of dollars.. it doesn't take that kind of money to operate a fire dept.. it's another rip off.. and then they still take subsidies and are always complaining their equipment isn't up to par.. how can it not be? I hate freaking government more every day

Bad math, martyr.

It would take 200,000 payments of $50.00 each to reach $10 million. Just how many rural property owners do you think there are in Obion County, Tennessee or Colbert County, Alabama?

You need to stop pulling figures out of thin air or out of your imagination.

quote:

Originally posted by leo:
I would think the moral implications alone would promt the FIREFIGHTERS to turn on the water. When I read this all I could think of is what a bunch of heros.

The local fire department developed a very well thought out program for fire protection that would have included properties outside the city limits. It was rejected by the local city CLOWNcil. The details of this were discussed on Countdown last night. The fire chief was critical of the city for rejecting the department's recommendations, which would have prevented a disaster such as the one discussed in this string.

quote:

Bad math, martyr.

It would take 200,000 payments of $50.00 each to reach $10 million. Just how many rural property owners do you think there are in Obion County, Tennessee or Colbert County, Alabama?

You need to stop pulling figures out of thin air or out of your imagination.

Good point poo-man. There are 32,000 people in the entire county in about 13,000 households. Take away the cities and I imagine it's under 5,000 households outside city limits.

quote:

Originally posted by martyr:
50 dollars per property add up to 10's of millions of dollars.. it doesn't take that kind of money to operate a fire dept.. it's another rip off.. and then they still take subsidies and are always complaining their equipment isn't up to par.. how can it not be? I hate freaking government more every day

They are not charging people in their jurisdiction, they are charging people that live outside of their coverage area. People whose taxes don't pay for their fire equipment. They do not get the 'subsidies' you are referring to for these residents because they are not in their area of responsibilty. This is like Florence FD responding to a house fire in Rogersville. Not Colbert County - Florence City. How many tax payers in Florence City would be pleased about that?

This is just like garbage pickup in the county. There is no coverage for fire services, so the citys offered the service to county residents that pay for it. It is not their responsibility to respond to the area. Had this been a brush fire in a field on someones property (and not a home), would you still feel the same about them not putting it out?

Like I said, my only gripe is that they didnt go ahead and put it out while they were there responding for the neighbor. It was cold hearted to sit there and watch it burn once they were on scene. Maybe the agreements should have included verbage regarding paying full cost (or average cost) if you havent paid the fee (similiar to what life flight does).

But the issue here is someone assumed that, even though they didnt pay for the service, they would be entitled to the service anyway......

Jeepin'

quote:

Originally posted by Eastside:
Actually, they will still pick up your garbage but if you don't pay the bill they will turn off all of your utilities since it is bundled together.

If the city wanted to demand the fee they could put it in a $2 service charge on everyone's utility bill every month and require it be paid. THat would spread it out and more people would be willing to pay it I bet instead of a lump sum. I'm sure their wonderful city leaders haven't considered that though.

Actually, if it is similiar to some of the countys here and in TN, garbage is not added into your utility bill. You either use community dumpsters or take your trash to the dump yourself. There are ads all over the area right now for a third party garbage pickup service for folks that dont have it. But you pay for it seperately, and they only pick up the trash of those that have paid for the service.

Jeepin'

I just hope the family had insurance on their house. If they skipped that as well, it's their own fault.

The fire department has to make a budget like anyone else. They need the money up front to do that. They may institute a policy where you pay $500 a call if you didn't pay the fee up front.
Also, they said they would have rescued anyone IN the house, so as far as I can see, some one bet they wouldn't have a fire and they lost.

I live in Florence so I am speaking from Florence perspective. However, if they applied this principal to their town they could recoup those fees the same way by attaching it to their water bill. No one lives without water. You might not pay your trash bill I guess.

I agree with leo. I normally am the defender of our Police and Fire and EMS providers and especially those that volunteer their time to do so, but in this case -- these men and women should be ashamed of their actions.

If you go to the hospital they can't turn you away if you need emergency services -- they bill you. The fire department should have done the same thing. If the guy still didn't pay, they could have filed a claim with his homeowner's insurance and attached to any settlement he might get. They could have billed his insurance or even billed their insurance and gotten paid I'm sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Eastside:
I live in Florence so I am speaking from Florence perspective. However, if they applied this principal to their town they could recoup those fees the same way by attaching it to their water bill. No one lives without water. You might not pay your trash bill I guess.

I agree with leo. I normally am the defender of our Police and Fire and EMS providers and especially those that volunteer their time to do so, but in this case -- these men and women should be ashamed of their actions.

If you go to the hospital they can't turn you away if you need emergency services -- they bill you. The fire department should have done the same thing. If the guy still didn't pay, they could have filed a claim with his homeowner's insurance and attached to any settlement he might get. They could have billed his insurance or even billed their insurance and gotten paid I'm sure.

I hate debating with myself.

Seriously, though, many folks in the county use well water, so it would need to be the electric bill.

My father in law is an assistant fire chief and a volunteer FD, his brother is the chief, and they personally would have never let it come to this. But they are an all volunteer force, no tax payer dollars, just grants and what they raise in fish frys.

A tax payer funded force has to answer to the tax payers that fund them. Unfortunately, this family was not.

Also, I doubt this family has insurance. Most insurance companies give customers a break if they have decent fire protection, so you would think that paying for fire protection ($75.00 a year) would earn you a discount. Someone without insurance wouldnt be too worried about that.

I think the key would be to put a lien on the property. However, the fire department has to have a legal leg to stand on. How does a fire department, responding outside of their territory, force anyone to pay for that service after the fact. The homeowner could go to court and say 'well, they shouldnt have been out here in the first place, so I shouldnt have to pay them.' Think it doesnt happen? It happens every day. People used to sue good samaritans all the time, before the laws preventing it were passed.

Remember, you are dealing with someone who assumed they were entitled to the service whether they payed for it or not. This is not your everyday, average citizen we are talking about here. Or maybe it is and thats the true problem.....

Does this county in TN have to pay a fee for police protection too?

Ridiculous to allow this man's house to burn down. How could anyone in good conscience allow this to happen? Didn't the man offer to pay any exenses incurred? What if there had been a person inside? So, then this FD receives a call they before they do anything check a list? What if someone pays the 75 dollars and there is some glitz in the paperwork? What a system.

quote:

Originally posted by OkieDokie:
Does this county in TN have to pay a fee for police protection too?

Ridiculous to allow this man's house to burn down. How could anyone in good conscience allow this to happen? Didn't the man offer to pay any exenses incurred? What if there had been a person inside? So, then this FD receives a call they before they do anything check a list? What if someone pays the 75 dollars and there is some glitz in the paperwork? What a system.

I would venture to guess no, there is probably a tax supported sherrifs dept. Unfortunatly, many counties in TN do not have tax supported fire departments in the county. Its all volunteer. And if there are no volunteers (I know, its the Volunteer state), then there is no fire protection. Harsh truth....

Yes, there is probably a check list. First question (after what is the location) is probably 'Is there anyone inside' because they stated they would respond if there was a life in danger.

The system is definately not perfect, Im sure it has its glitches, but from what I read the cities and the county commissions all agreed to this system and the word was put out to all the residents. In or Out.....

This family called their bluff and lost....

I know Jeep -- doesn't someone think we are the same person or something? They really need to get out more often apparently. lol

I just think the city should have a protocol in place for these situations instead of "let it burn". I think this will be a wake up call to them and to other homeowners and that protocol will be in place soon. However, something I'm not sure on...I know the man said "I figured they'd come put it out anyway" but I don't know that he thought he was entitled to anything. I think that is a label that we have put on him. I still think he should have been given the benefit of the doubt that he would have settled up with the city for any fee they charged him after the fact. I personally think the city considered this guy a good example and said if we let him get away with it others will think they can too. And even if he didn't do the right thing -- you are right they could have put a lien on the property, garnished his wages or government check or whatever his situation is...they still should have done what was right.

However, I don't see how anyone could -- in good conscience -- have stood by and watched this without doing anything about it. I think that would have been one instance I would have been insubordinate and then sued the city if they tried to fire me for protecting someone's property.

Police take an oath to protect and serve. Doctors take a hippocratic oath. Lawyers even swear an oath (bad example I know) -- Don't firemans take an oath too?

Again, hospitals can't turn you away -- ambulance services still get you when you are hurt etc etc etc and they have to fight to get paid but they still do their duty to the public as a public servant. Yes, these firemen have to answer to the taxpayers but that doesn't mean tax dollars is all that would have been lost. There is a high price for trust, honor and reputation.

You know -- now that they've said "if someone was inside" -- you can bet money next time some idiot will go back in the house to force them to fight the fire and save him too.

East, You nailed it. 'some idiot'

That was the problem from the beginning. They assumed even if they didn't pay, knowing they were supposed too, the fire department, out of the goodness of their hearts, would save their house.

In this economy with budget cuts and layoffs, that lack of $75 could have been part of a fireman's salary. What if 20 people didn't pay? Or 100?

It will be interesting to see if any changes are made to the policy.

I have to play devil's advocate here. There are people out here that don't make enough money to raise kids, buy food, make a house payment, house, car, and medical insurance, utility bill. These poverty stricken people are penalized(spelling) for being poor. If they are late on utilities, for instance, they have to pay more for being late. Some places even charge a fee for paying you bill in cash. Is it really allright to watch someone who doesn't have much to begin with lose everything they own because they didn't have $75.00? I think most of us would have turned on the da**ed water. I KNOW I would have and worried about the money later.

That is a good point. The problem with the story is we don't know if they didn't pay because they didn't want to or couldn't pay. If it was 'couldn't pay', I would think there would be some kind of allowance for that.

I know things are hard to pay for sometimes, but I make sure all my bills are paid before I spend money on anything else. Sometimes there is little left over but I know that risking no insurance or no electricity is not something I want to do.

Leo

As much press as this has been given, if these folks couldn't pay, I'd be willing to bet that would have already come up.

Each community has to decide how they are going to address these type issues. This community made their decision, the residents knew what the expectations were, and some chose not to pay.

Sure, some may not have been able to pay, and we dont know how this community deals with those issues. They may have something in place that we have not heard about because its not part of the equation in this situation.

All that I have seen from the victims here was that they thought the department would respond even if they didnt pay. Not that they couldnt afford it. Unless I missed something (please post it if I did), I took it as they thought 'why pay when they will come anyway.'

Awful risky line of thought....

Jeepin'

b50m -- "out of the goodness of their hearts" is the main reason many men and women become firemen, police officers etc.....so yea, I would assume they would do it as well. Like I said, they never gave the guy the option to pay after the fact -- instead they LET HIM LOSE EVERYTHING. So now, instead of $75 the city lost, they will have a family that will have to use the Salvation Army (donated funds) to get clothing and shelter. They will now lose the benefit of the utility bill and property taxes this family pays and you get only imagine that "this idiot" will definitely consider relocating somewhere else. Not to mention, the people like me that would boycott the local businesses and send my money elsewhere since the mayor agreed that the man deserved to lose his home and property since he didn't pay the $75. Who's to say he could afford the $75? He might be on a fixed income for whatever reason. I don't know that I could come up with $75 extra either. Yes, you will argue it should be a given he'd have to pay it every year but would you rather him eat dinner or pay for fire protection. Demanding fire protection is like Obama demanding every person have health insurance. You don't know this man's situation enough to call him "some idiot" and blame him for the fire department not doing their job and the mayor condoning their actions. That is great leadership.

I see your point but standing back and watching the destruction makes me sick...you'd probably be one of those standing their catcalling and making fun of the guy while you stood their on the city's clock watching it burn.

I hope not...I'd hate to ruin my opinion of you...

I haven't seen anything that said they refused or were unable, I was just sayin...They may have plan for the indigent. I hope so. I think $75.00 a year is pretty cheap really. I just find it hard to understand how someone who cares enough for people to invest his time and effort to become a firefighter can so casually stand by and watch a family lose everything. For me, I couldn't stand by and do nothing money or not. From what I see from Jeepin and B50, I don't think they could either.