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quote:
Originally posted by O No!:

I agree with you 100% on this, Bill. Atheists are not necessarily BAD people, but they do put self first. Atheists are proud of their intellects, they are proud of their self sufficiency, they are proud to think they run their own lives.

I know this because I was once an atheist. .


today's BS award goes to none other than Ono!
quote:
Originally posted by Road Puppy:
I think the point DA was making was that, sure...we all screw up and lose our freakin' minds and the caveman/woman comes out to play, but atheists, (who have no god to ask for forgiveness-thereby making everything all right and resetting the sin-O-meter back to all zeros again til next time) tend to possibly think things through before we say or do them. We are in the here and now. To us atheists there is no hereafter. The score does not matter. Everybody dies and nobody wins.)


gods honest truth? there is NO DIFFERENCE between the behvour of athesits and theists. none. we all screw up, ask forgiveness, screw up again, rinse and repeat. granted, many of the theists here are batshyt crazy and the most ill tempered people I've seen on this forum but that's just a statistical anomonly. the same could be said for atheists.

atheists simply aren't hypocrits about it.
i believe in God.
i can't think of a single thing i've had to give up.
there are some things i can't do.... but i can't think of any of the things i'm not allowed to do that i would want to do anyway.
i can't randomly wander around with a gun and shoot people, unmaking some of god's children.
but i don't really wish to anyway, so i've lost nothing.

and because of the angle a few of the last replies have taken i thought i'd add...

i know some amazingly intellegent athiests. i also know some that are dumber than a box of hammers.

i know christians in both catagory as well.
both groups are also full of average regular ol people, too.

neither side has any advantage of intellegence -

they is smart peepuls that beleevs and some that dont, neither.

tho.. i will go so far as to admit my belief that the real whackjobs are almost exclusively on the side of the believers. this doens't mean there aren't a few on the athiests side, but it takes fanatical belief to give us the westboro church.

how fanatic can you really really get about the absense of something...

THERE IS NOT!!!

ok, your argument is pretty much done Smiler where else can that argument go? i guess we cna add a 'nuh-uh!' or a 'NYEH' but it's really hard to be a fanatic athiest the same way phelps is a fanatic Dbag.
and to jen: what would I "give up"? well, nothing.

i cannot speak for any atheist other than myself but i can say I am a much better person since admitting to myself that i do not believe in invisible fairies in the sky. there was a time, when i was a christian, that i lied, cheated and stole. since embracing reality, i can't think of an instance where i've done that. not in any significant way, anyway,

i haven't psychoanalyzed myself to really know why that is. perhaps i like myself more now? i really don't know but embracing atheist certainly had much to do with it.

i imagine most new atheists dont change at all. i further imagine that NONE of them get "worse."
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:

I agree with you 100% on this, Bill. Atheists are not necessarily BAD people, but they do put self first. Atheists are proud of their intellects, they are proud of their self sufficiency, they are proud to think they run their own lives.

I know this because I was once an atheist. .


today's BS award goes to none other than Ono!
Oh my, she was once an atheist so she knows all about every other atheist in the world! Between my husband and kids it's kinda hard to "put myself" first. How would one go about doing that? Anyone? Exactly how does one put themselves first? Maybe when I say, "I'm going to take a long hot bath and unless you're coughing up a lung don't bother me".
I'd have to give up the sovereignty of my soul. I'd have to give up my natural requirement of evidence before conclusion.

I'd have to give up my independence and all of my liberty. I would have to accept that there is a ubiquitous, tyrannical entity that would judge me for thought crimes, even as I slept.

I would have to abandon my mind.

I would have to give up hope in the future of mankind. I would have to give up science and reason and philosophy.

I would have to give up that which is me, and me alone.

And I would fight to the death not to do so.


nsns
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
I'd have to give up the sovereignty of my soul. I'd have to give up my natural requirement of evidence before conclusion.

I'd have to give up my independence and all of my liberty. I would have to accept that there is a ubiquitous, tyrannical entity that would judge me for thought crimes, even as I slept.

I would have to abandon my mind.

I would have to give up hope in the future of mankind. I would have to give up science and reason and philosophy.

I would have to give up that which is me, and me alone.

And I would fight to the death not to do so.
nsns

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

ns,,,,,,,,Do you mean you have a soul(like I believe I have a soul)
or is it a figure of speech?

Iv
Slim ole boy,

In the interest of Christian patience and good will, I think in your case they could arrange that you didn’t have to give up a single item you listed.

After all the DOI states that the Creator has endowed you with the right to life , liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

You’re too rough on yourself.
Last edited by buffalo
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
Slim ole boy,

In the interest of Christian patience and good will, I think in your case they could arrange that you didn’t have to give up a single item you listed.

After all the constitution states that the Creator has endowed you with the right to life , liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

You’re too rough on yourself.


I'm guessing that by "Christian patience and goodwill" he means "I'm too hammered at the moment and besides... the sheep walked away." Wink
quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
I'd have to give up the sovereignty of my soul. I'd have to give up my natural requirement of evidence before conclusion.

I'd have to give up my independence and all of my liberty. I would have to accept that there is a ubiquitous, tyrannical entity that would judge me for thought crimes, even as I slept.

I would have to abandon my mind.

I would have to give up hope in the future of mankind. I would have to give up science and reason and philosophy.

I would have to give up that which is me, and me alone.

And I would fight to the death not to do so.
nsns

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

ns,,,,,,,,Do you mean you have a soul(like I believe I have a soul)
or is it a figure of speech?

Iv

Vic,

The unique experiences, values, thoughts, emotions, and hopes of each of us is our soul. We have no reason to think that these souls will survive death, unless we write really well, but our souls are the intangible humanity that makes us each special unto ourselves.

If soul does not survive death, which is likely, we have every reason to celebrate existence constantly and enjoy every day. Will you join me in this, after your own fashion?

nsns
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
I'd have to give up the sovereignty of my soul. I'd have to give up my natural requirement of evidence before conclusion.

I'd have to give up my independence and all of my liberty. I would have to accept that there is a ubiquitous, tyrannical entity that would judge me for thought crimes, even as I slept.

I would have to abandon my mind.

I would have to give up hope in the future of mankind. I would have to give up science and reason and philosophy.

I would have to give up that which is me, and me alone.

And I would fight to the death not to do so.
nsns

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

ns,,,,,,,,Do you mean you have a soul(like I believe I have a soul)
or is it a figure of speech?

Iv

Vic,

The unique experiences, values, thoughts, emotions, and hopes of each of us is our soul. We have no reason to think that these souls will survive death, unless we write really well, but our souls are the intangible humanity that makes us each special unto ourselves.

If soul does not survive death, which is likely, we have every reason to celebrate existence constantly and enjoy every day. Will you join me in this, after your own fashion?

nsns
Slim, I do believe you have been BS'N all along you are now expressing some concern for your soul after all. Are you a closet believer?
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:


i cannot speak for any atheist other than myself but i can say I am a much better person since admitting to myself that i do not believe in invisible fairies in the sky. there was a time, when i was a christian, that i lied, cheated and stole. since embracing reality, i can't think of an instance where i've done that. not in any significant way, anyway,



Not to over analyze but are you suggesting that Christianity might have been the reason you lied, cheated, and stole in a more significant way while a Christian than since you decided to not be a Christian?
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
If soul does not survive death, which is likely, we have every reason to celebrate existence constantly and enjoy every day. Will you join me in this, after your own fashion?

nsns


i already do that, and i haven't had to abandon or give up anything.

in fact, it's my belief in an afterlife that does give me hope for the future of mankind.

but whatever works, ya know? we all have to find what gets us through the day.
Jennifer, in her opening post, under this topic, reported that Forum Member Bill said :
quote:
And, we cannot forget our vanilla-flavored non-believing Friends -- those who just cannot bring themselves to leave their worldly desires and turn to follow Jesus Christ. I know this character -- for I was him for almost fifty years.


As a professing Christian I believe, and it is my opinion, that Christians have and continue to have after salvation, the same worldly desires and temptations that unbelievers have. The desires and temptations are a function of being fleshly, being human, and salvation doesn't change or alter that. Furthermore an unsaved or non-believing person can be as moral or more moral, in their actions, than a Christian and many are more knowledgeable about what verses or content is in the Bible.

Salvation is a gift of God, to those who put their faith in Christ blood, Christ Sacrifice, as taking their punishment and penalty for their sins. It is my belief that the scriptures teach that it is the gift of God's Holy Spirit, living, dwelling within the Christian's body with their inner spirit, that makes the difference between a "saved" person and an "unsaved" person. The Holy Spirit is given unto the believer as a guarantee of the legitimacy of the believer's conversion and also has many other ministries and benefits to the believer that includes enabling change within the believer and opening up spiritual knowledge to the believer.

One problem, and I do consider it a problem, that plagues many well meaning Christians is that they share Christ with an itemized list of things they perceive that the new convert must do or comply with before they are saved. It is a judgmental approach to people which infers that the Christian is somehow superior or better than another person in God's eyes. It is through people like this that people get the idea that they have to somehow change their conduct or lives in order to qualify for salvation. That may not be what they say or how they say it but that is the subliminal message they are sending. What it ends up doing is turning off the very people that want to share Christ with.

Christ was never condemning when He interacted with those He was seeking to save or meet the needs of. He never stood in Judgment of them or set a list of requirements that a person must meet before they were saved. He, through a process of communication and dialog, established rapport with people and established mutual respect and trust. He identified needs of the person and offered them the answer of how to find that which people needed and wanted. Answers to who we are and why we are here. Reconciliation of man/woman with God and eliminate the fear of judgment upon sin that rested upon the lives of everyone.

I don't see the decision of accepting Christ being one where a person sets down and calculates what all they are going to "give up". Mentally listing what sins they no longer will be able to commit or looking at salvation as some insurance policy that enables them to sin without fear of judgment or punishment. Once the person makes that decision, in faith, to accept Christ sacrifice then it is the Holy Spirit that enables that person to change that creates the desire to live in accordance with God's will. The same human and fleshly desires will still be there, with the believer, but through the Holy Spirit's conviction and help we are able to understand God's will and have the desire to live Christlike.
Last edited by gbrk
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
And, we cannot forget our vanilla-flavored non-believing Friends -- those who just cannot bring themselves to leave their worldly desires and turn to follow Jesus Christ. I know this character -- for I was him for almost fifty years.
The above post by bill seems to mean that an atheist is an atheist because they don't want to "give up or leave" things that they think would be considered wrong by "christians". I ask bill twice just what he thought we didn't want to give up, but bill, as usual, won't answer.

So as an atheist or non-believer, reformed believer, whatever, what do you think you'd have to "give up" to believe or believe again? I can't think of anything I do differently now than I did when I was a believer. I don't drink, bill has said he drinks wine, I don't smoke, plenty of christians do, among other things. There are many things "christians" and others do that I don't do or approve of. So what do you think you'd have to give up? Besides the obvious things like logic and common sense.

I wish bill would answer questions every once and a while because I'd love to know what "worldly desires" we'd have to lose.

Hi Jennifer,

Look at any person. Whatever that person holds as highest priority in his/her life -- is his/her god. For some it is material affluence or wealth -- for others it is power: job, politics, position of authority, etc. -- for others it may be attention, popularity, etc, (we see this often in our Hollywood crowd) -- for some it is science and intellect, i.e, a feeling of superiority -- for some, it is fun, parties, good times, etc. -- and for some it could be personal relationships.

When the rich young ruler asked Jesus Christ what he must do to have eternal life -- Jesus told him to give away all his riches and follow Him. The rich young ruler could nor part with his worldly riches, because this was his god. So he apparently went away lost eternally.

Luke 18:18, "A ruler questioned Him, saying, 'Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?' "

Luke 18:22-23, "When Jesus heard this, He said to him, 'One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.' But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich."

When a disciple told Jesus that he wanted to follow Him -- but, let him go home and bury his father first. What did the man really mean -- and what was Jesus' response?

Pastor David Guzik, Director of Calvary Chapel Bible College, Germany, writes in his Study Guide for Matthew 8:

Matthew 8:21-22, "Another of the disciples said to Him, 'Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father.' But Jesus said to him, 'Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead.' "

a. Lord, let me first go and bury my father: Actually, this man did not ask for permission to dig a grave for his deceased father. He wanted to remain in his father’s house and care for him until the father died. This was obviously an indefinite period, which could drag on and on.

b. Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead: Jesus clearly states the principle that family obligations - or any other obligation - must not be put ahead of following Jesus.


So, Jennifer, what must we be willing to give up to follow Jesus Christ? Everything in THIS world? Yet, the beautiful part of this is that no one has to give up their loved ones and family. The solution to that problem is -- just assure that all your loved ones are also Christ Followers. This way, you KNOW beyond all doubt that you will spend eternity with all your loved ones -- in the presence of God. Now, that is truly the absolute best WIN-WIN proposition you will find in this life.

And, don't worry about giving up that Mercedes, that Cadillac, that five bedroom home, that lifetime membership to the country club. All those things will rust and rot. Eternal life with God never deteriorates -- for you and for your loved ones.

In closing, Jennifer, I realize that you will once again accuse me of not answering your question -- because I did not give you the answer you wanted. But, my Friend, I have given you a sincere, truthful, Biblical answer which can help you assure eternal life for you and your loved ones. No one can give you a better answer.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by BFred07:
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:


i cannot speak for any atheist other than myself but i can say I am a much better person since admitting to myself that i do not believe in invisible fairies in the sky. there was a time, when i was a christian, that i lied, cheated and stole. since embracing reality, i can't think of an instance where i've done that. not in any significant way, anyway,



Not to over analyze but are you suggesting that Christianity might have been the reason you lied, cheated, and stole in a more significant way while a Christian than since you decided to not be a Christian?


i don't have a satisfying answer for that.

i think it has somehting to do witht rh fact that atheism is an act of being honest with ones self, i had lied and cheated myself for many years during my transition from christian to atheist. when i finally admitted the truth to myself, it was a pretty profound personal experience, i admitted my sins of pretending to be somehting i wasn't.

from there, it was simply "easier" to be more honest when before, it was easier to cheat a little.

whatever the case, i consider myself a much more "moral" person that i was when i was a christian.
quote:
Look at any person. Whatever that person holds as highest priority in his/her life -- is his/her god. For some it is material affluence or wealth -- for others it is power: job, politics, position of authority, etc. -- for others it may be attention, popularity, etc, (we see this often in our Hollywood crowd) -- for some it is science and intellect, i.e, a feeling of superiority -- for some, it is fun, parties, good times, etc. -- and for some it could be personal relationships.

OK, this is as far as I read, I skipped the sermon, so I'll respond to this part. To me those are not "worldly desires" as you stated. The things you listed can be found in christians and in non-believers lives. From your posts I see some of those things in you. I'm sure there are many many christians that have and do those things and feel it was all made possible for them by their god. We've all heard christians attribute all their "good life" to their god.

You and others try to put forth that an atheist only thinks of self, and that's not true. I would die for my husband and kids and not give it one second of thought. Die for a stranger? I'd hope it wouldn't end that way but if put in a situation where they needed my help and I thought I had a chance of helping/saving them I'd give it my best try. Every day you can hear of people that put their lives in danger to save strangers, and I don't mean as a part of their jobs- I mean ordinary people going about their life and running into those situations. How many of those people are non-believers? I'm sure plenty of them.

This isn't rare or "god" working, it's human nature and while there are plenty of people, christians and non-believers, that can stand by and do nothing, most people aren't like that.

No bill, that statement from you is what it is. A feeble attempt to paint non-believers as selfish, greedy, wicked and unwilling to give up all the "good stuff" to follow your god. In other words bad people.
quote:
I would die for my husband and kids and not give it one second of thought. Die for a stranger? I'd hope it wouldn't end that way but if put in a situation where they needed my help and I thought I had a chance of helping/saving them I'd give it my best try. Every day you can hear of people that put their lives in danger to save strangers, and I don't mean as a part of their jobs- I mean ordinary people going about their life and running into those situations. How many of those people are non-believers? I'm sure plenty of them.


Same here.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
and to jen: what would I "give up"? well, nothing.

i cannot speak for any atheist other than myself but i can say I am a much better person since admitting to myself that i do not believe in invisible fairies in the sky. there was a time, when i was a christian, that i lied, cheated and stole. since embracing reality, i can't think of an instance where i've done that. not in any significant way, anyway,

i haven't psychoanalyzed myself to really know why that is. perhaps i like myself more now? i really don't know but embracing atheist certainly had much to do with it.

i imagine most new atheists dont change at all. i further imagine that NONE of them get "worse."


Maybe it was more fun when you were breaking the rules, like a child told 'no'. I don't know why you thought just saying 'forgive me' gave you an out. Seems to me that YOU believed that having a God gave the right to be an azz, when you took him away, you had to face your own actions. Problem with that is, you had to face your own actions then too, you just ignored that part. God is not a 'get out of hell' free card. Unless you face yourself honestly, it doesn't work. You used religion as a crutch as you claim others do, but every one is different, and your experience is not the standard.
quote:
Seems to me that YOU believed that having a God gave the right to be an azz, when you took him away, you had to face your own actions. Problem with that is, you had to face your own actions then too, you just ignored that part.



didn't i essentially admit to just that? yes, i did. the point is, i am a better person now in so many ways. to become a believer again would allow me to blame my misbehaving on my "sinful" nature. i was taught that we are all sinners but believers can ask forgiveness from god,

asking forgivness from one's own self is a much harder task because i don't forgive as easily as god. instead of just asking myself for forgiveness, i tend to attempt to go the extra step and make amends.

i'd not want to give that up.
Wow. Where do I start?

Maybe with Jennifer not understanding that "self" is NOT the same thing as "selfishness". "Self" is all of the things in life that are important to you, whether it be family, career, posessions, intellectual pursuits, what have you.

And giving up that "self" doesn't mean you can't HAVE those things anymore. It means that you reprioritize your life. God comes first, and all of those other things come next.

The thing is, unless what used to be more important to you is harmful, not only DON'T you lose it, but usually it is enhanced. God in one's life makes everything better.
quote:
Originally posted by DarkAngel:
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Youdon't abandon your intelligence, but you no longer use it justtoshow off how intelligent you are! You use it to do whatever it is God wants you todo. He GAVE us our intelligence so that we could make the world a better place, not so we could make more money or get into a better paying job, and certainly not to brag on an internet forum that we have "logic and reason". Big Grin

You atheists (some of you at least), remind me of teenagers. You THINK you know it all, and yet, you don't. And just like a know-it-all teenager, there will (probably already has) come a time in your life when you mess up so badly that you can't fix things yourself.

Christians are like the teenagers who DON'T think they know it all. We realize that our parents (in this case, God) knows a lot more about life than we do, and we know that, just like a parent, He loves us and will lead us where we need to go. Rather than rebelling and trying to do it our own way, with disasterous results, we let Him lead us, and He NEVER leads us astray.


Ok, so I can be intelligent I just can't use it to point out the inconsistencies or contradictions found in the Christian faith? Have I got that right? I can't use my intellect of examine the bible and belief in God in the same manner I do for say the assertion that there is a Big Foot. If I do use my intelligence to question or examine Christianity with logic and reason then I am just being boastful. I gotcha.

I don't know everything. I have never claimed to know everything. To me when Christians say the "know" there is a God and a heaven they are the ones who claim to have all the answers with no real knowledge. I on the other hand wait for real proof or evidence and I am not willing to assume that I know what comes after this life. All I can do is live the one I have and use my intelligence to get through it the best way I can.

Christianity is a dumbing down in my opinion. You are not allowed to question or examine it too closely or you are not being faithful. You are full of pride and that apparently is a sin. I am proud of many things in my life. I worked hard to get where I am and I don't owe it to God. So I guess I am a sinner in your eyes. Luckily that is your own problem. In my world there are rights and wrongs, but no sins.

One more thing. I see some Christians say they do not believe that God directs our lives, that we have free will and good or bad things that happen in this life have nothing to do with God. Then I see others who say that only the good can be attributed to God. Then you have those that think even the bad is God's work. As the Westboro Baptist group do. Which is it that you subscribe to?


If you USE you intellect and study the Bible IN CONTEXT, you will find there ARE no contradictions.

I have said this before and it is the truth - there will never be "evidence" for God because He wants us to love Him through FAITH. If there were evidence, no one could deny His existence, and people would believe in Him because they had no choice. He wants our love to be given freely, not because it is obligatory.

I used to thing Chistianity "dumbed down" people too. I was wrong.


And as to your question about whether God directs all things, no I don't believe He does. He only directs the lives of those who ask Him to. We DO have free will, and even after I asked God to drive, I can still grab the steering wheel. I don't WANT to, but I could if I chose to.

As far as the great world out there - I believe He created it, set up the laws of science to operate it, and once He flipped the metaphorical on switch, He just let it run and got on with the business of dealing with individual humans.
quote:
What I think is so funny about both yours and ONo's outcries about atheist saying they are more intelligent always comes from you guys first. Very telling wouldn't you say? You tell yourself that we think we are smarter or more intelligent. Then you try and project that accusation onto us.


Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin

YOU were the one who just said Christianity dumbs down the people. YOU (and NSNS and UNOB) are CONSTANTLY saying you use your INTELLECTS and Christians don't.

Do you even pay attention to what you are posting?
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
I'd have to give up the sovereignty of my soul. I'd have to give up my natural requirement of evidence before conclusion.

I'd have to give up my independence and all of my liberty. I would have to accept that there is a ubiquitous, tyrannical entity that would judge me for thought crimes, even as I slept.

I would have to abandon my mind.

I would have to give up hope in the future of mankind. I would have to give up science and reason and philosophy.

I would have to give up that which is me, and me alone.

And I would fight to the death not to do so.


nsns


The "sovereignty" of your soul, huh? Not quite sure what you mean by that, but I certainly haven't given up anything having to do with my soul. My soul has been infinitly enriched because it is in the hands of my sovereign Lord.

I've already talked about the evidence thing, dozens of times over the past several months, and once again in this thread.

I haven't given up my independence to any living being on this earth - just to my Lord. I take orders from no one (except maybe the IRS. Big Grin) Haven't given up my liberty either. As I said a few minutes ago, I can always take the wheel back if I chose to.

As for some "tyrannical entity" judging me for thought crimes, I guess you really don't know much about God at all do you? My God knows that I love Him, and if I have "bad thoughts", He helps me to overcome them - for the sake of my own happiness.

Nope, haven't abandonned my mind. Not at all.

If I have lost hope for the future of mankind, you can chalk it up to man's inhumanity to man. As a matter of fact, any hope I DO have for the future of mankind comes directly from God.

Science? Still love it. Reason? Still got it. Philosophy? Still thinking and reading, thank you.

Haven't had to give up that which is uniquely me either. I'm still a crazy musician who reads a lot of the classics and science fiction too. I still love kids. I still love to go rock climbing (although the old bones are complaining more and more every year). Nope, I'm still me alright.

Got any more?
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
and to jen: what would I "give up"? well, nothing.

i cannot speak for any atheist other than myself but i can say I am a much better person since admitting to myself that i do not believe in invisible fairies in the sky. there was a time, when i was a christian, that i lied, cheated and stole. since embracing reality, i can't think of an instance where i've done that. not in any significant way, anyway,

i haven't psychoanalyzed myself to really know why that is. perhaps i like myself more now? i really don't know but embracing atheist certainly had much to do with it.

i imagine most new atheists dont change at all. i further imagine that NONE of them get "worse."



Unob, you're going to hate this, but this is proof that even though you believed intellectually, you never really had Jesus in your heart. If you HAD had Him living in your heart, you would have gone out of your way not to hurt Him because you would have loved Him.

Now, honestly, when you were a "believer", did you really love Jesus with all your heart? I didn't think so.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
I don't know why you thought just saying 'forgive me' gave you an out.


and, b50, that is EXACTLY what the church teaches. the fact that you disagree with the premise is a good sign,

ask for firgivness and be done with it, say a prayer and be done with it. belief absolves you of responisbility.


No, you only think it says that. If you don't mean it, it doesn't count. Hiding behind the church to do bad things is not following the rules. I can kill someone, and say, 'I'm sorry', but if I am not willing to repent and take my earthly punishment, I didn't mean it. If you are a 'better' person because you lost your belief, then you never tried to accept responsibility for your actions. You can't keep repeating the same sins day after day and get a free ride. Having God forgive me saves my soul, not my earthly life. I can still go to prison and be executed for what I did. But I know that after my earthly life ends, God HAS forgiven me and I will be rewarded in Heaven.

So if you feel better because no one is watching your back, go for it.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
and to jen: what would I "give up"? well, nothing.

i cannot speak for any atheist other than myself but i can say I am a much better person since admitting to myself that i do not believe in invisible fairies in the sky. there was a time, when i was a christian, that i lied, cheated and stole. since embracing reality, i can't think of an instance where i've done that. not in any significant way, anyway,

i haven't psychoanalyzed myself to really know why that is. perhaps i like myself more now? i really don't know but embracing atheist certainly had much to do with it.

i imagine most new atheists dont change at all. i further imagine that NONE of them get "worse."



Unob, you're going to hate this, but this is proof that even though you believed intellectually, you never really had Jesus in your heart. If you HAD had Him living in your heart, you would have gone out of your way not to hurt Him because you would have loved Him.

Now, honestly, when you were a "believer", did you really love Jesus with all your heart? I didn't think so.
Ono dear,

Uno hates God because he cannot buy booze 7/24. I know that sounds nutty but he has raised hell for years about being denied alcohol sales on Sunday. That’s uno’s enemy.

These atheist turned candidates all start out being believers an then they have the ‘first drink’ after the first drink they have guilt that sets in and after a period of time the alcoholism starts playing tricks on the mind.
After some time the environment of alcohol alters them genetically and reason is the first thing to go.

Neurotransmitters affected by hormones then alter regulators that warn areas of the frontal cortex of social dangers resulting in no discipline of normal behavior. Denial sets in and God is seen as an obsticle between them and alcohol and they will lie, cheat and steal as uno said he did. After a while God is abandoned and the lying, stealing and cheating is covered by the feeling of freedom and euphoria.

They become mean and irritable as you see in jenn and uno.

One of these days he will kill some innocent with his use or constant yapping that it should be enjoyed by all.
Bill Gray replied in a post with the following --
quote:
Look at any person. Whatever that person holds as highest priority in his/her life -- is his/her god. For some it is material affluence or wealth -- for others it is power: job, politics, position of authority, etc. -- for others it may be attention, popularity, etc, (we see this often in our Hollywood crowd) -- for some it is science and intellect, i.e, a feeling of superiority -- for some, it is fun, parties, good times, etc. -- and for some it could be personal relationships.

When the rich young ruler asked Jesus Christ what he must do to have eternal life -- Jesus told him to give away all his riches and follow Him. The rich young ruler could nor part with his worldly riches, because this was his god. So he apparently went away lost eternally.


Additionally Bill said to Jennifer

quote:
So, Jennifer, what must we be willing to give up to follow Jesus Christ? Everything in THIS world? Yet, the beautiful part of this is that no one has to give up their loved ones and family.



I believe the passage of Scripture, about the Rich young man/ruler is put there for a very specific reason which I will post a reply about further down this thread. I am though curious about one thing Bill. You have been in dialog with others, such as Invictus and others about Salvation by faith alone. Not salvation of works, lest anyone should boast and not a combination of Faith and works.

I'm a little confused however by your response to Jennifer using the Rich young ruler as an example then also telling Jennifer "Everything in this world". While I do agree that scripture indicates that the rich have a more difficult time possibly for several reasons the way you have presented your evaluation or interpretation of the rich young man seems to violate your Salvation by Grace alone doctrine.

So he went away apparently lost eternally because he was unwilling to give away his riches and follow Christ. So are you saying belief in Christ was not enough for this man? So he needed to believe in Christ, recognize Him as savior AND give away his riches? Is this not a work? What you seem to be saying is for salvation to be real then the person must decide to give up potentially something in their life that is not considered as Christian. Maybe it's money, maybe it's being gay or maybe it's a girl working as an exotic dancer. When you began to say you have to clean up first before then you are injecting works into the equation for there is something in and of the unbeliever that they have to do in order to obtain salvation and it's no longer just of faith alone and the grace of God.

Am I wrong here in taking what you are saying as that? Maybe I am the only one that interprets what you are saying as that. Your reply was to Jennifer so maybe she will contribute to that and see how she sees it because maybe I'm wrong seeing it that way because to me it seems you are being inconsistent in your statements regarding salvation, works, and faith alone.
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
I would give up:

jenn, b.gray, dopie & jemi, dark p and others.


.
So you're saying we're your "worldly desires"? EEEEK!!!!! See if someone can show you how to use the ignore feature and "poof" we're gone.

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Maybe I'll read the thread. hehehe

.
quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
I would give up:

jenn, b.gray, dopie & jemi, dark p and others.


.
So you're saying we're your "worldly desires"? EEEEK!!!!! See if someone can show you how to use the ignore feature and "poof" we're gone.

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Maybe I'll read the thread. hehehe

.


please do, because someone who put Jenn and Bill gray in the same list as things he desires either missed the topic at hand or has really serious emotional issues.

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