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quote:
Originally posted by gbrk:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Look at any person. Whatever that person holds as highest priority in his/her life -- is his/her god. For some it is material affluence or wealth -- for others it is power: job, politics, position of authority, etc. -- for others it may be attention, popularity, etc, (we see this often in our Hollywood crowd) -- for some it is science and intellect, i.e, a feeling of superiority -- for some, it is fun, parties, good times, etc. -- and for some it could be personal relationships.

When the rich young ruler asked Jesus Christ what he must do to have eternal life -- Jesus told him to give away all his riches and follow Him. The rich young ruler could nor part with his worldly riches, because this was his god. So he apparently went away lost eternally.

So, Jennifer, what must we be willing to give up to follow Jesus Christ? Everything in THIS world? Yet, the beautiful part of this is that no one has to give up their loved ones and family.

I believe the passage of Scripture, about the Rich young man/ruler is put there for a very specific reason which I will post a reply about further down this thread. I am though curious about one thing Bill. You have been in dialog with others, such as Invictus and others about Salvation by faith alone. Not salvation of works, lest anyone should boast and not a combination of Faith and works.

I'm a little confused however by your response to Jennifer using the Rich young ruler as an example then also telling Jennifer "Everything in this world". While I do agree that scripture indicates that the rich have a more difficult time possibly for several reasons the way you have presented your evaluation or interpretation of the rich young man seems to violate your Salvation by Grace alone doctrine.

So he went away apparently lost eternally because he was unwilling to give away his riches and follow Christ. So are you saying belief in Christ was not enough for this man? So he needed to believe in Christ, recognize Him as savior AND give away his riches? Is this not a work? What you seem to be saying is for salvation to be real then the person must decide to give up potentially something in their life that is not considered as Christian. Maybe it's money, maybe it's being gay or maybe it's a girl working as an exotic dancer. When you began to say you have to clean up first before then you are injecting works into the equation for there is something in and of the unbeliever that they have to do in order to obtain salvation and it's no longer just of faith alone and the grace of God.

Am I wrong here in taking what you are saying as that? Maybe I am the only one that interprets what you are saying as that. Your reply was to Jennifer so maybe she will contribute to that and see how she sees it because maybe I'm wrong seeing it that way because to me it seems you are being inconsistent in your statements regarding salvation, works, and faith alone.

Hi GB,

You have missed the whole point of Jesus' story and my post. What Jesus Christ is saying is that a person must be willing to turn from following the world, i.e, turn from worldly things -- do a 180 degree turn -- and FOLLOW HIM.

Basically, He is telling us that believing and following Him must be our highest priority.

So, no, my Friend, this is not "faith plus works" equals salvation. This is, by grace, through faith -- we Follow Him, to the exclusion of all worldly, material things.

If you have done this -- you have His promise of eternal life in Christ. If you have not, you are still following the world.

Simple! Salvation by grace, through faith -- PLUS NOTHING ELSE. However, then, if you want to store up treasures in your Bank of Heaven -- you WILL get to work sharing His Gospel and following His teachings.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
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Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
I would give up:

jenn, b.gray, dopie & jemi, dark p and others.


.
So you're saying we're your "worldly desires"? EEEEK!!!!! See if someone can show you how to use the ignore feature and "poof" we're gone.

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Maybe I'll read the thread. hehehe

.


please do, because someone who put Jenn and Bill gray in the same list as things he desires either missed the topic at hand or has really serious emotional issues.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I just wanted to see if anyone could pick out the one didn't
belong in the list.

Now I still have serious emotional issues, but I can still
sit up and take nutriment, a few tokes and maybe a clclone rum.

.
Bill Gray responds:

quote:
Hi GB,

You have missed the whole point of Jesus' story and my post. What Jesus Christ is saying is that a person must be willing to turn from following the world, i.e, turn from worldly things -- do a 180 degree turn -- and FOLLOW HIM.


See though Bill I may still be misunderstanding it but when you say that a person must be willing to turn from following the world, stop sinning or however you want to put it then that to me is a form of Works. It's something that the individual does on their part in order to achieve salvation and a right standing with God. We all know that everyone, saved or not, sins and cannot help it due to the flesh. While a Christian, with the Holy Spirit of God is encouraged to live by and in the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-25) it is the Holy Spirit that enables this Change and not the person willing within their own mind to change their life in order to be saved.

Take the illustration of say a Gay person. Do you think that Christ is saying that the person must renounce being gay, convert to being straight before they can be saved? What about a prostitute, can they be saved immediately. Granted that one can define all different levels of sin but the end result should be the same. Sin is wrong doing against God. My point again in asking is IF there is anything that the Christian has to do, before salvation, in order to obtain salvation and the grace of God then it is considered a works based salvation. At least to me it seems that way.


As for the specific passage I would rather than comment on the story myself, I will quote a passage from the Bible Exposition Commentary. I think it puts it very concisely and is the way I understand the passage to read and say.

Of all the people who ever came to the feet of Jesus, this man is the only one who went away worse than he came. And yet he had so much in his favor! He was a young man (Matt. 19:22) with great potential. He was respected by others, for he held some ruling office, perhaps in a local court (Luke 18:18). Certainly he had manners and morals, and there was enough desire in his heart for spiritual things that he ran up to Jesus and bowed at His feet. In every way, he was an ideal young man; and when Jesus beheld him, He loved him. With all of his fine qualities, the young man was very superficial in his views of spiritual things. He certainly had a shallow view of salvation, for he thought that he could do something to earn or merit eternal life. This was a common belief in that day among the Jews (John 6:28), and it is very common today. Most unsaved people think that God will one day add up their good works and their bad works; and if their good works exceed their bad works, they will get into heaven. Behind this good-works approach to salvation is a superficial view of sin, man, the Bible, Jesus Christ, and salvation. Sin is rebellion against the holy God. It is not simply an action; it is an inward attitude that exalts man and defies God. Did this young man actually think that he could do a few religious works and settle his account with the holy God? The young man had a superficial view of Jesus Christ. He called Him "Good Master" (Teacher), but we get the impression that he was trying to flatter the Lord; for the Jewish rabbis did not allow the word good to be applied to them. Only God was good, and the word must be reserved for Him alone. Jesus was not denying that He was God; rather, He was affirming it. He just wanted to be sure that the young man really knew what he was saying and that he was willing to accept the responsibilities involved. This explains why Jesus pointed the young man to the Law of Moses: He wanted him to see himself as a sinner bowed before the holy God. We cannot be saved from sin by keeping the Law (Gal. 2:16-21; Eph. 2:8-10). The Law is a mirror that shows us how dirty we are, but the mirror cannot wash us. One purpose of the Law is to bring the sinner to Christ (Gal. 3:24), which is what it did in this man's case. The Law can bring the sinner to Christ, but the Law cannot make the sinner like Christ. Only grace can do that. The young ruler did not see himself as a condemned sinner before the holy God. He had a superficial view of the Law of God, for he measured obedience only by external actions and not by inward attitudes. As far as his actions were concerned, he was blameless (see Phil. 3:6); but his inward attitudes were not blameless, because he was covetous. He may have kept some of the commandments, but the last commandment caught him: "Thou shalt not covet!" Covetousness is a terrible sin; it is subtle and difficult to detect, and yet it can cause a person to break all the other commandments. "For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil" (1 Tim. 6:10, nasb): Looking at this young man, you would conclude that he had everything, but Jesus said that one thing was lacking: a living faith in God. Money was his god: he trusted it, worshiped it, and got his fulfillment from it. His morality and good manners only concealed a covetous heart. Our Lord's directions in Mark 10:21 are not to be applied to everyone who wants to become a disciple, because Jesus was addressing the specific needs of the rich young ruler. The man was rich, so Jesus told him to liquidate his estate and give the money to the poor. The man was a ruler, so Jesus told him to take up a cross and follow Him which would be a humbling experience. Jesus offered this man the gift of eternal life, but he turned it down. It is difficult to receive a gift when your fist is clenched around money and the things money can buy. The Greek word translated "grieved" gives the picture of storm clouds gathering. The man walked out of the sunshine and into a storm! He wanted to get salvation on his terms, and he was disappointed. The disciples were shocked at the Lord's declaration about wealth, because most Jews thought that the possession of great wealth was the evidence of God's special blessing. Many people today still cling to this error, in spite of the message of Job, the example of Christ and the Apostles, and the clear teaching of the New Testament. In the case of this young man, his wealth robbed him of God's greatest blessing, eternal life. Today, wealth continues to make rich people poor and the first last (see 1 Cor. 1:26-31). Money is a marvelous servant but a terrible master. If you possess money, be grateful and use it for God's glory; but if money possesses you, beware! It is good to have the things that money can buy, provided you don't lose the things that money cannot buy. The deceitful-ness of riches had so choked the soil of this young man's heart that he was unable to receive the good seed of the Word and be saved (Matt. 13:22). What a bitter harvest he would reap one day! However, Peter's response indicated that there were a few problems in his own heart. "What then will there be for us?" (Matt. 19:27, nasb) This statement reveals a rather commercial view of the Christian life: "We have given up everything for the Lord; now, what will we get in return?" Contrast Peter's words with those of the three Hebrew men in Daniel 3:16-18, and with Peter's later testimony in Acts 3:6. He certainly came a long way from "What will I get?" to "What I have, I will give!" Jesus assured His disciples that no one who follows Him will ever lose what is really important, either in this life or in the life to come. God will reward each one. However, we must be sure our motives are right: "For My sake and the Gospel's" (see Mark 8:35). The well-known Christian industrialist of a decade ago, R.J. LeTourneau, used to say, "If you give because it pays, it won't pay!" If we sacrifice only to get a reward, that reward will never come. Note that Jesus also promised "persecutions." He had already told His disciples what both the Jews and Gentiles would do to Him in Jerusalem, and now He informed them that they would have their share of persecution. God balances blessings with battles, developing mature sons and daughters. To the general public, the rich ruler stood first and the poor disciples stood last. But God saw things from the perspective of eternity—and the first became last while the last became first! Those who are first in their own eyes will be last in God's eyes, but those who are last in their own eyes will be rewarded as first! What an encouragement for true disciples!Warren W. Wiersbe, The Bible Exposition Commentary – New Testament, Volume 1, (Colorado Springs, CO: Victor, 2001), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 145-147.
quote:
Originally posted by gbrk:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
You have missed the whole point of Jesus' story and my post. What Jesus Christ is saying is that a person must be willing to turn from following the world, i.e, turn from worldly things -- do a 180 degree turn -- and FOLLOW HIM.

See though Bill I may still be misunderstanding it but when you say that a person must be willing to turn from following the world, stop sinning or however you want to put it then that to me is a form of Works. It's something that the individual does on their part in order to achieve salvation and a right standing with God.

Hi GB,

Yes, we are told to repent, i.e., turn from following the world and turn 180 degrees to follow Jesus Christ.

If you want to swim in the semantics pool and call this "works" -- not a problem. However, this is not the "works" God speaks of in Ephesians 2:8-9 when He tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- NOT as a result of WORKS, so that no one may boast."

But, if you want to believe that you have to WORK your way into heaven; I have one question for you: "When will you know that you have WORKED enough to earn entry into heaven?"

And, what did God mean in Isaiah 64:6 when He tells us, through Isaiah, that our WORKS are, to Him, like filthy garments?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by gbrk:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
You have missed the whole point of Jesus' story and my post. What Jesus Christ is saying is that a person must be willing to turn from following the world, i.e, turn from worldly things -- do a 180 degree turn -- and FOLLOW HIM.

See though Bill I may still be misunderstanding it but when you say that a person must be willing to turn from following the world, stop sinning or however you want to put it then that to me is a form of Works. It's something that the individual does on their part in order to achieve salvation and a right standing with God.

Hi GB,

Yes, we are told to repent, i.e., turn from following the world and turn 180 degrees to follow Jesus Christ.

If you want to swim in the semantics pool and call this "works" -- not a problem. However, this is not the "works" God speaks of in Ephesians 2:8-9 when He tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- NOT as a result of WORKS, so that no one may boast."

But, if you want to believe that you have to WORK your way into heaven; I have one question for you: "When will you know that you have WORKED enough to earn entry into heaven?"

And, what did God mean in Isaiah 64:6 when He tells us, through Isaiah, that our WORKS are, to Him, like filthy garments?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill, you continue to avoid the obvious and clear teaching of the new Testament on baptism.

The unfortunate diminution of the role of baptism in remission of sins and salvation traces back to the Protestant Reformation and to the rejection of the elements of Catholicism that elevated good works to an exaggerated position of significance. With the Reformation, the pendulum swung to another extreme, namely an un-scripturally narrow concept of “salvation by faith only” that irrationally declares that baptism as not necessary for salvation on the grounds that baptism is a “work.”

But baptism is never portrayed in scripture as a work of merit, carried out for the purpose of earning one’s salvation. Baptism, in the new Testament, is a passive act in which the penitent believer, having faith in salvaton through Christ, submits to an action that God has ordained as the place and event in which the believer is “…buried with him [Christ] by baptism into death.” In baptism, the believer gets into the death of Christ. Christ shed his blood in His death, and that blood is the agent of atonement (“What can wash away my sins?” Nothing but the blood of Jesus”). It is that blood, and not the action of the believer, that redeems the lost soul. This concept of baptism is described with beautiful clarity in Romans 6:

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

So there you are–the believer, in baptism, dies with Christ; in baptism, the believer’s ’old man’ of sin is “crucified with Him” (sounds a lot like that “remission of sin” Peter spoke of in Acts 2:38:“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins….”)

Baptism as necessary for salvation was rejected by John Calvin and Uldreich Zwingli and others of the Protestant Reformation following about 1400 years in which the church uniformly held that baptism was for the remission of sins. Their rejection was couched upon the argument that baptism was a work of merit, and they lumped baptism with actual works of merit demanded in their era by the Catholic Church. But baptism, as taught in scripture is no work of merit at all. It is the penitent believer’s passive acceptance of the God-ordained place and event in which the sins of the sinner are brought into the “likeness of His death” with the result (v. 5) that “we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.” It is a deplorable artificiality to lump baptism with “works of merit” and then to degrade the significance of baptism on the basis of that unscriptural characterization.

Have you heard of Charles G. Finney? Finney was perhaps the premier evangelist of his time, the early to mid-19th Century. It was Finney who popularized what has been called the “mourners’ bench,” of as he preferred to call it, the “anxious seat.” Finney unflinchingly and candidly admitted that in his employment of the “anxious seat,” he had doctored up the New Testament concept of repentance and salvation. Here is Finney’s description of the “anxious seat,” in his own words:

“ the appointment of some particular seat in the place of meeting, where the anxious may come and be addressed particularly, and be made subjects of prayer and sometimes conversed with individually.” (Hm-m-m–sounds quite a bit like that counseling tent where those who answered Billy Graham’s altar call were sent).

As to how., if at all, this “anxious seat” business could be related to baptism, Finney states as follows:

“If you say to him, ‘There is the anxious seat, come out and be on the Lord’s side,‘ is he is not willing to do so small a thing as that, then he is not willing to do anything, and there he is, brought out before his own conscience. It uncovers a delusion of the human heart, and prevents a great many spurious conversions, by showing those who might otherwise imagine themselves willing to do anything for Christ, that in fact, they are willing to do nothing.

The church has always felt it necessary to have something of the kind to answer this very purpose. In the days of the apostles baptism answered this purpose. The Gospel was preached and those who were willing to be on the side of Christ were called on to be baptized. It (baptism) held the precise place that the anxious seat does now, as a public manifestation of their determination to be Christian.”

The above is a verbatim quotation from page 254 of Finney’s most famous book “Revivals of Religion,” 2nd Edition October 22, 1868, Fleming & Revell, publishers).

See what Finney has done. Finney contends that baptism, as practiced in the early church (“in the days of the apostles”), answered the purpose that Finney has boldly and un-scripturally assigned to the “anxious seat.” Baptism, as taught in the New Testament, does far more than what the “anxious seat” is said to do; thus Finney’s assertion that baptism and the “anxious seat” hold analogous places in the scheme of redemption is to be rejected. But how arrogant it is for a mere man to presume to substitute his invention for the scripturally-prescribed ordinance of baptism, all the while and without shame or regret admitting that he has thus tampered with the teaching of the Word of God!

The Finneys of today tell us that baptism is not necessary for remission of sins, notwithstanding all the clear teaching of scripture to the contrary. The Finneys of today tell lost sinners to pray a “sinner’s prayer;” to “ask Jesus to come into your heart” and to “get saved” on the basis of those actions, without the necessity of baptism. The Finneys of today can no more find scriptural grounds for that doctrine that Finney himself could find a scriptural rationale for intruding his “anxious seat” into the place for
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by gbrk:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
You have missed the whole point of Jesus' story and my post. What Jesus Christ is saying is that a person must be willing to turn from following the world, i.e, turn from worldly things -- do a 180 degree turn -- and FOLLOW HIM.

See though Bill I may still be misunderstanding it but when you say that a person must be willing to turn from following the world, stop sinning or however you want to put it then that to me is a form of Works. It's something that the individual does on their part in order to achieve salvation and a right standing with God.

Hi GB,

Yes, we are told to repent, i.e., turn from following the world and turn 180 degrees to follow Jesus Christ.

If you want to swim in the semantics pool and call this "works" -- not a problem. However, this is not the "works" God speaks of in Ephesians 2:8-9 when He tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- NOT as a result of WORKS, so that no one may boast."

But, if you want to believe that you have to WORK your way into heaven; I have one question for you: "When will you know that you have WORKED enough to earn entry into heaven?"

And, what did God mean in Isaiah 64:6 when He tells us, through Isaiah, that our WORKS are, to Him, like filthy garments?

Bill, you continue to avoid the obvious and clear teaching of the new Testament on baptism.

Hi Beter,

Not at all. Jesus tells us to believe and be baptized. Notice the "believe" comes first -- through which one becomes a Christian believer. THEN, one should do as Jesus Christ tells us and be baptized. Baptism is an outward manifestation of an inner change.

And, baptism is one of the two ordinances Jesus Christ left for all believers: Communion and Baptism. One would not take communion without being a believer -- just as one would not be baptized until after becoming a believer.

But, Beter, if you want to believe differently, not a problem. For our salvation does not depend upon when or if we were baptized. Like the thief on the cross -- all believers WILL be with Him in Paradise.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
If soul does not survive death, which is likely, we have every reason to celebrate existence constantly and enjoy every day. Will you join me in this, after your own fashion?

nsns


I'm not asking you to give up anything. In fact, I insist that you do not.

To believe, however, you'd have to give up quite a lot. Such as reason and the belief in solid knowledge. I wish you would not do this, same as I wish no one would.

i already do that, and i haven't had to abandon or give up anything.

in fact, it's my belief in an afterlife that does give me hope for the future of mankind.

but whatever works, ya know? we all have to find what gets us through the day.
I'm not asking you to give up anything. In fact, I insist that you do not.

To believe, however, you'd have to give up quite a lot. Such as reason and the belief in solid knowledge. I wish you would not do this, same as I wish no one would.

We are entitled to even the weirdest beliefs, but I think the cost outweighs the benefits much more often than not.

nsns
quote:
But, if you want to believe that you have to WORK your way into heaven; I have one question for you: "When will you know that you have WORKED enough to earn entry into heaven?"


I don't believe I said or indicated that I believe or advocate a "works salvation" for I don't therefore I need not answer your question. My point in posting it was that based upon some statements that you made, within your post, just seemed to contradict your statements regarding works, posted under other topics. For that reason I just wanted clarification, that's all.
quote:
just as one would not be baptized until after becoming a believer.


I would! And I had all my children baptized as infants.
Jesus said quite plainly, "Let the children come to Me".

In the days of Jesus, entire HOUSEHOLDS were baptized on numerous occasions- including children.
Also, take note of this passage:
Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far away, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him.” [Acts 2:38-39]

Peter says quite clearly that we need baptism so that sins may be forgiven.
He doesn't say "It's ok, go on your merry way, you have Faith".

Those who shout out against Baptism as a requirement for salvation are treading on dangerous ground...
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
just as one would not be baptized until after becoming a believer.


I would! And I had all my children baptized as infants.
Jesus said quite plainly, "Let the children come to Me".

In the days of Jesus, entire HOUSEHOLDS were baptized on numerous occasions- including children.
Also, take note of this passage:
Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far away, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him.” [Acts 2:38-39]

Peter says quite clearly that we need baptism so that sins may be forgiven.
He doesn't say "It's ok, go on your merry way, you have Faith".

Those who shout out against Baptism as a requirement for salvation are treading on dangerous ground...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Paul also spoke of infant baptism, how could you go wrong?

.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
just as one would not be baptized until after becoming a believer.

Peter said to them, “Repent, AND (then) be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far away, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him.” [Acts 2:38-39]

Hi VP,

Notice the order-- REPENT (become a believer) -- then, BE BAPTIZED. When the person repents, turns from following the world and turns to follow Jesus Christ -- they are saved. THEN, they are baptized.

Now, you tell me, how can an infant REPENT, turn from following the world and turn to follow Jesus Christ? It cannot!!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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How about Luke?
"Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’" (Luke 18:15–16).
Or maybe the Word of our Lord Jesus Christ will suffice:

"Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God" (St. John 3, 5); "Going, therefore,teach ye all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of theSon and of the Holy Spirit" (St. Matt. 28, 19).
quote:
the reason we don't believe is because we just don't believe?


Exactly! To say that you are not Christian because your "god" is something "worldly" is just kind of nuts...
/shrug. Some people just don't believe. I didn't at one point in my life, and it's certainly not because I didn't want to give up my lifestyle...this whole arguement is nonsense.
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
I'm not asking you to give up anything. In fact, I insist that you do not.

To believe, however, you'd have to give up quite a lot. Such as reason and the belief in solid knowledge. I wish you would not do this, same as I wish no one would.

We are entitled to even the weirdest beliefs, but I think the cost outweighs the benefits much more often than not.

nsns


no worries, i have not, nor shall i given up anything.
and i DO believe, remember?

my belief doesn't require removal of reason or solid knowledge....

well, that's not 100% true. i've given up christianity. i've given up the idea of an all loveing god watching every little move i make, something i've never seen proof of.

there are a couple of instances in my life that i could see as proof that he is watching, or at least can choose to watch, but i've seen nothing that can be explained in no other way than the direct intervention of God without either inventing things or chooseing the ignore the blantently obvious in favor of the fancyful.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
the reason we don't believe is because we just don't believe?


Exactly! To say that you are not Christian because your "god" is something "worldly" is just kind of nuts...
/shrug. Some people just don't believe. I didn't at one point in my life, and it's certainly not because I didn't want to give up my lifestyle...this whole arguement is nonsense.


one more example of why i love Veep.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Or maybe the Word of our Lord Jesus Christ will suffice: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God" (St. John 3, 5); "Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (St. Matt. 28, 19).

Hi VP,

We have been through this before. The "water and the Spirit" in this passage is speaking of the "Word of God and the Holy Spirit" -- not H2O. Water, H2O, has NEVER saved anyone. ALL who are saved -- are saved through the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.

Spin and twist all you want in an attempt to make if fit Vatican traditions -- but, you are putting a square peg in a round hole.

And, by the way, once again you try to twist and spin when you take the emphasis I added and attempt to make it look as though I am trying to change the Word of God.

In "Repent, AND (then) be baptized" -- even a blind person can see that the red text is to show that I had added that word myself.

VP, debate your Roman Catholic points on their validity (if there is any) rather than always trying to twist what I write just because you cannot bring yourself to agree with me on any issue.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi VP,
We have been through this before. The "water and the Spirit" in this passage is speaking of the "Word of God and the Holy Spirit" -- not H2O. Water, H2O, has NEVER saved anyone. ALL who are saved -- are saved through the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.

Spin and twist all you want in an attempt to make if fit Vatican traditions -- but, you are putting a square peg in a round hole.

And, by the way, once again you try to twist and spin when you take the emphasis I added and attempt to make it look as though I am trying to change the Word of God.

In "Repent, AND (then) be baptized" -- even a blind person can see that the red text is to show that I had added that word myself.

VP, debate your Roman Catholic points on their validity (if there is any) rather than always trying to twist what I write just because you cannot bring yourself to agree with me on any issue.
Bill


Bill, you were being a smart ass by saying water has NEVER saved anyone. V didn’t spin and twist anything, you did. She didn't say that it’s the water that actually saves, and yes, H2O is water. If you would really read what she said, which was, “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit”. She didn’t say just water, she said “and Holy Spirit”.

I think that when a person is truly saved, the next step they want to take is to be baptized. I believe that when we are baptized, we come out of the water a new person.

I was saved many years ago at 2:00 in the morning. Even at that hour, I ask to be & was baptized immediately.
quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
Paul also spoke of infant baptism, how could you go wrong?


quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Vic,
Would you mind giving us a Scripture reference for that?
Bill


Bill, Acts 2:38–39 says, And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

It doesn’t say if children included infants, but you could assume children to mean ALL children, regardless of age.
A church we used to attend would “dedicate” an infant to God when it was born at the request of the parents. It didn’t mean the infant was saved, only that the parents were going thru a ceremony before the church family placing their baby in the protection of God
I guess I would have to give up my honesty and I am not really sure I could do that anyway. How do you lie to yourself? There is just no way that I could suddenly start believing. I could pretend to, but there is that honesty problem again. Big Grin

I don't think atheist and believers are that different. I just think that some people question more in life. If you are a very curious person and you can't live by faith alone, you are more than likely going to be atheist. I couldn't change that about myself if I tried. It is who I is. Smiler As far as thing like lying, cheating, stealing, and violence. I think it is pretty equal in all humans. Doesn't matter what your belief is, those things are just the weaknesses of human nature. Some of us have more control than others.

To go back to the religion I was raised in I would have to leave my husband, never drink again, stop dancing, and cursing. I think the hardest one of those to give up with be the cursing. Big Grin
Another important fact that is not often understood about "Infant Baptism" is the important role of the parents and godparents.
It is through THEIR faith that the baby is baptized, as we all know an infant can't have faith.
Jesus left many examples of how someone's faith can save or heal another. (think about the paralytic, or Lazarus)
It is by this example that we continue the Sacrament of Baptism....
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Another important fact that is not often understood about "Infant Baptism" is the important role of the parents and godparents.
It is through THEIR faith that the baby is baptized, as we all know an infant can't have faith.
Jesus left many examples of how someone's faith can save or heal another. (think about the paralytic, or Lazarus) It is by this example that we continue the Sacrament of Baptism....

Hi VP,

We do the same with Child Dedication -- with parents, family, and God Parents committing themselves to seeing to the infant's spiritual growth.

The infant doesn't know if it has been baptized or dedicated -- and it sure cannot have saving faith. Yet, at an older age, the child can understand what it means to live in the grace of God and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. THAT is when the person, child or adult, becomes a saved Christian believer.

Baptism of an infant does no more than get the child wet. Salvation, by grace, through faith -- when the person, child or adult, is old enough to understand and have faith -- has substance. AND, is followed by the person following Jesus Christ in baptism -- an outward manifestation of an inner change. An infant cannot have that inner change.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
The infant doesn't know if it has been baptized or dedicated -- and it sure cannot have saving faith. Yet, at an older age, the child can understand what it means to live in the grace of God and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. THAT is when the person, child or adult, becomes a saved Christian believer.

So if it dies it goes to hell. It didn't get old enough to give up those worldly desires, such as a pacifier and diaper changes.
quote:
An infant cannot have that inner change.


I don't believe you.
Once again, I urge you to be careful what you say with "authority". You can disagree, but you do not have the authority to negate things others believe- ESPECIALLY when they are supported by Scripture.
Remember, they were bringing infants to Jesus, and people told them to stop! And what did He say????
LET THE CHILDREN COME TO ME.
In Baptism we die with Christ, so that we may share in His Ressurection. Do you not think that babies are to share in this Ressurection? Come on..
Your "baby dedication" is not in the Bible, Bill.
And believe me, baptism in the name of the Holy Trinity does a lot more than you callously say "get a baby wet". It claims this child for Christ. It is the first Sacrament a child receives, and leads to the rest of the Sacraments. Together with the parents and godparents, the baby embarks on his/her Christian life.
Don't slam what you do not understand. Really.
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
quote:
Originally posted by bluetick:
quote:
Originally posted by Road Puppy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
I think the hardest one of those to give up with be the cursing. Big Grin


Word.
I can f---in' relate. Wink


Dammit man,me too!


Hell yeah, brethren. Big Grin


**** yeah *********** *************, ****!
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Notice the order-- REPENT (become a believer) -- then, BE BAPTIZED. When the person repents, turns from following the world and turns to follow Jesus Christ -- they are saved. THEN, they are baptized.

Now, you tell me, how can an infant REPENT, turn from following the world and turn to follow Jesus Christ? It cannot!!

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thats why infant baptism isn't for everybody, Older people can repent,
and then be baptized.

.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
VP, IF AN INFANT DIES AND IS NOT BAPTIZED - WILL THAT INFANT GO TO HELL? - IF SO, WHY? - IF NOT, WHY

No, I believe Jesus would take an innocent infant directly to Heaven. Why? Because I trust in His Mercy.

THEN, YOU "DO NOT" BELIEVE INFANT BAPTISM TO BE A MUST - A SACRAMENT WHICH CAN KEEP ONE OUT OF HEAVEN IF IGNORED?

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quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
I guess I would have to give up my honesty and I am not really sure I could do that anyway.

To go back to the religion I was raised in I would have to leave my husband, never drink again, stop dancing, and cursing. I think the hardest one of those to give up with be the cursing. Big Grin


Honesty would cover it for me too. I would have to put on a dress, go to church, pretend to like everyone there, smile & put forth a personality that just isn't me.
I wasn't quite comfortable with that be one thing on church days & be your real self the rest of the week. Church people never show their "real self", what you see is the "fake self". At least, that's been my experience.

Cursing would be it for me too. Eeker

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