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Hi to all my Forum Friends,

In a recent Religion Forum discussion titled "First Sermon Since Release From Jail" an agnostic Friend posts an article about a Youth Pastor who had gotten into trouble and spent time in jail as a consequence.   My agnostic Friend tells us, "Impersonating a peace officer in 2012, again in 2013, spent time in prison but he’s still a Pastor?  Must be one of those OSAS(once saved, always saved) Christians."

I respond to her:

 

This just emphasizes what the Bible tells us, and what I have often said:  We are all sinners (Romans 3:23) and have fallen short of God's desire for us.   Yet, those who, by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) believe and receive His gift of eternal life are His children (John 1:12).   Those who hear the Gospel and believe are indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) -- and will never lose that sealed faith and promised eternal life (Ephesians 4:30).

Could that young man be a true Christian believer?   Yes.  Just as a homosexual can turn from that lifestyle and turn to follow Christ -- so can a person who is addicted to other sins, such as impersonating a police officer.  Yes, that can be an addiction, the need to be something one is not.

You and I cannot say what is in that young man's heart; but, God knows.  So, yes, my Friend  -- if he is saved, he DOES HAVE eternal security, he will spend eternity in the presence of God.

Have you sinned today?   I am sure that I have; but, I know He will forgive me.

 

And, in my response, I used a graphic which illustrates 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, telling us that a believer's works will be tested by fire -- but, he himself will be saved.

This prompted a Christian Friend who leans heavily toward a legalistic theology to disagree.  He tells me:

 

The analogy used by Paul in I Cor. 3:13-15 is one where (the) church occupies the position of "God's building." (v. 9).  Paul, Apollos, and others (v. 6) who won converts were placing stones on the foundation, Jesus Christ (v. 11 & 12).   But Paul cautions that not all the building elements placed on the foundation were "precious stones" or gold or silver (v. 12).  

Sometimes, in this life, that which is placed on the foundation is of inferior stuff that will not endure: "wood, hay, stubble" (v 12).  But in the end -- just as in the parable of the tares (Matt. 13: 23-30) -- both the the genuine and the corrupt will be revealed.

The "loss" Paul writes of in verse 15 is not the loss, per se, of those who prove in the end not to have been faithful.  They claimed a place among the "gold, silver, precious stones" -- but they did not endure and their true nature will, in the end, be revealed "as by fire."

They will indeed be lost, but In this context, the loss is to those builders (the evangelists) who brought those converts into the "building" (the church).

It is they (the evangelists) who who will suffer the loss, or disappointment that is particularly described here, by having learned that the wood, hay, and stubble they laid in the foundation did not endure. 

Nevertheless the "builder," being in this analogy the evangelist, will himself be saved.  He will not be held accountable for the failure of others; each man is accountable for himself before God.  Here, the "loss" that is suffered is simply the loss sustained by the one who was in this life engaged in building of the church (the same building that Paul, Apollos, etc., were building by placing converts, upon Christ as the foundation) and who sees some of that "work" failing to endure.

 

My Friend, you almost make that interpretation, that analogy, sound plausible.  However, let's take a look at the Scripture passage found in 1 Corinthians 3:1-15 and see if we can find your analogy:

 

1 Corinthians 3:1-3, "And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.   I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it.  Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly.  For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?"

 

In this portion of the passage, Paul is explaining to the believers in Corinth, and to us, the difference between the carnal believer and the spiritual believer -- and looking back at 1 Corinthians 2:14 we see the difference between those believers and the non-believer, the natural man.  The foot note in my Harper's NASB Study Bible (Zondervan) tells us:

 

Scripture distinguishes between two kinds of Christian walks.  One walk is termed carnal and the other spiritual.  The carnal believer is a converted believer whose life is fleshly (sarkinos) because he is under the domination of the sarx or self-relying, self-pleasing nature.   Therefore he is not walking in full fellowship with the Lord Jesus nor is he fully surrendered to the Spirit of God.   He is not Spirit-filled, although he should be (Eph. 5:18); nor does his life reflect the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23).

The spiritual (pneumatikos) Christian is one whose life is yielded to God and whose will is in subjection to the will of God.  He is filled with the Spirit and men can see the evidences of spiritual vitality, for he produces the fruit of the Spirit in his life.

An unbeliever is not spoken of as either carnal or spiritual.  He is called a natural (psychikos) man.  See 1 Cor 2:14, where he is called the natural man.

 

Let me pause for a moment and talk about "Holy Spirit indwelling" and being "filled by the Spirit" or "Spirit-filled" as that foot note explains.

"Holy Spirit indwelling"
happens the moment we are saved.  The Holy Spirit takes up residence in the believer, sealing that believer in Christ (Ephesians 1:13) until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).   Indwelling/Sealing by the Holy Spirit happens at the time of believing and is a "once for all mortal time" permanent condition of our faith (John 10:28-29).

Being "filled by the Holy Spirit" or "Spirit-filled" is something we need daily.  Each day, we need to be in the Word of God and in prayer, that we will receive the "empowerment" of the Holy Spirit, that He will empower us to have a strong Christian walk during that day.  Being human, even though saved, we ALL still have the curse of the Adamic Sin Nature and will have it until we are redeemed by Him on the day of our death in this mortal body, or the day we are Raptured from this mortal body.

So, when the foot note above tells us of the carnal man, "He is not Spirit-filled" --  this does not mean that he is not saved, nor that he is not indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit.  It merely means that this Christian believer is more vulnerable to the machinations of the secular world, because this believer has not been partaking of his "Holy Spirit Super Energy Drink" (comprised of the Word of God and prayer).

Next, let's look at Paul's transition:

 

1 Corinthians 3:4-9, "For when one says, 'I am of Paul,' and another, 'I am of Apollos,' are you not mere men?  What then is Apollos?  And what is Paul?   Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.  I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.  So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.  Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.  For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building."

 

Here, Paul is chastising them, the Corinthian believers, for putting their faith and their allegiance in men, instead of God.  Man cannot save anyone, only God, through the Holy Spirit, can save us.  Man can teach us, man can point us in the right direction toward the cross; but, the work of salvation is the work of only the Holy Spirit.

You have often heard me speak of the man, Pastor Sam Lacanienta, who led me to the Lord.  It was through his loving and Godly nature that I came to know of my need for salvation.  Then, for six months he taught me.  And his Godly love, with the Godly love of the church fellowship where he was the pastor, kept me coming back for more -- until the Holy Spirit took hold of me and made me a child of God, indwelling and sealing me in Christ, until the day of my redemption.  I still have great respect for Pastor Sam as a man of God -- but, my faith and worship belong only to God.

That is what Paul is strongly pointing out to these believers in Corinth (and the lesson should not be lost on any of us) -- that he and Apollos were only the messengers, the evangelists.  Those who believed were saved by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- alone.

Finally, Paul is teaching them of their believers' rewards in heaven:

 

1 Corinthians 3:10-13, "According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it.  But each man must be careful how he builds on it.  (11) For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  (12) Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, (13) each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work." 

 

Notice the transition within this Scripture passage.   Verses 10 speaks of the evangelist as the master builder, building upon the Foundation (verse 11) which is Jesus Christ.  Then, in verse 12, Paul switches his emphasis and begins to speak of the person being saved (any man) who is building upon the saving faith Foundation which is only found in Jesus Christ. 

Then Paul tells us that each man (within that "any man" grouping) will have his works tested by fire (Refiner's Fire, Malachi 3:3).  If that believer's salvation has produced good works, those works are viewed as gold, silver, precious stones and the testing fire does not reduce or destroy them.  If that believer's salvation has been dormant, i.e., a "couch potato" Christian, that work is viewed as wood, hay, straw -- and is destroyed by the testing fire.

The first thing Paul reminds the Corinthian believers, and us, is that the one and only foundation for our saving faith is Jesus Christ, alone.  Paul goes on to remind us that after our solid foundation is built upon Jesus Christ; then we begin to build upon that foundation which has already saved us, i.e., now our works will be the fruit of our salvation -- for we are now called His brethren (Hebrews 2:17), children of God (John 1:12).

Paul first tells us of the spiritual believer who builds upon his solid "Jesus Christ Only" foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, i.e., works that the world cannot burn, works that will withstand the Refiner's Fire (Malachi 3:1-3).  Great will be their rewards when they stand before Jesus Christ at the Believers' Judgement (Bema Seat).

Then, Paul compares the carnal (or worldly) believer with the man who builds upon his eternal foundation using only wood, hay, and straw.  I have often referred to these believers as "couch potato" believers; they want to sit on their couch and wait for someone to come and ask them about Jesus Christ -- for they feel that going out to tell the world about the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15) -- is pushing their beliefs, their faith, upon others.

 

1 Corinthians 3:14-15, "If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.  If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

 

Paul concludes by assuring them that even the carnal believer, the believer whose faith was built upon worldly, destructible works will be saved.  That is explained more fully in the foot note of my Harper's NASB Study Bible (Zondervan), which tells us:

 

See also the note to 2 Cor 5:10 on the judgment seat of Christ (In 2 Corinthians 5:10 we learn that everyone, believer and non-believer, must stand before the judgment seat of Jesus Christ.  Believers will stand at the Bema Seat Judgment in heaven during the seven year Tribulation; non-believers will stand at the Great White Throne Judgment following His Millennial Kingdom). 

Salvation is by grace through faith.  Rewards are determined according to works performed subsequent to (following) salvation.  Scripture reveals that some will suffer loss, entering heaven by the skin of their teeth and with the smell of smoke on their garments (1 Cor 3:15).  While works constitute the basis of the reward, yet the reward is of grace and not merit, since all of the believer's works are defective.  God, however, judges the intent of the heart (1 Kings 8:17-19).

It should be clearly understood that a self-seeking desire for heavenly rewards has no proper place in the Christian's motivation, since he lives no longer for himself, but for Him who died for him (2 Cor 5:15).   But the rewards have value only as a demonstration of the grace and righteousness of God.  The Christian desires them only as a display of the glory of God.

 

So, my Friend, I cannot find your analogy of the loss being suffered in 1 Corinthians 3:1-15 being that of disappointed evangelists -- anywhere in that Scripture passage.

What I do find is:  "If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.  If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss -- but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" ( 1 Corinthians 3:14-15).

I can only relate the message of that Scripture verse as telling me that all believers, having been tested, will be saved.  Yet, not all will receive rewards for their earthly ministry works.  However, the greatest reward --  we all will receive -- that of being eternally in the presence of our God.

And, that is validated by the fact that the Believers' Judgment happens during the seven year Tribulation after the church is Raptured into heaven.  We are already in heaven heaven when the Believers' Judgment occurs.  

 

At the Believers' Judgment is when the church, the Bride of Christ, will receive her heavenly wedding dress in preparation for the Wedding Feast of the Lamb:  "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.  It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Revelation 19:7-8).  


In Revelation 19:6-9, we are told of the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.  Then, the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, will come again, His Second Coming -- as the Lion of Judah!  And, we, the church, the Bride of Christ, will be with Him.

My Friend, try as I might, I cannot find your analogy, that the "loss" (1 Corinthians 3:15) will be that of the evangelist only, in that Scripture passage.  And, for that I praise God, for it tells me that all believers, even lazy ones (as I tend to be at times) WILL spend eternity in the holy presence of God, and in the joyful fellowship of Jesus Christ and all the saints -- forevermore!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

 

1 Corinthians 3_13-15 - Glory of God

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Last edited by Bill Gray
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Ah, yes, the predictable--almost inevitable--Bill Gray "new" thread, which is no new thread at all, but a continuation of an existing thread that you, Wandering Willie, for no rational purpose, can not find yourself comfortable to continue within.  We have all seen it many times before..

 

Bill, anyone reading your agonizingly tortured attempt at explicating I Cor. 3:1-15  will readily  see that you are attempting to stretch the message of I Cor. 3:1-15 upon the Procrustean bed of your premillennialist multiple-judgment theological mythology.

 

Paul is decidedly not equating the "work" of that passage with the totality of actions of either the saved or the lost or those of hot, cold, or lukewarm believers. I have shown you the analogy, plain and simple.  The planting, watering, and laying of elements upon the foundation all very obviously have to do with the work of evangelization and building up of the church.  Paul PLANTED churches wherever he went.  Apollos and others, following him, "WATERED", i.e. taught them to observe the things Jesus expected them to be taught (Matt 28: 20)..  Some of those taught by Paul and others proved not to be sound materials for the building up of the church and these are the ones who failed the test of fire and were lost.

 

Push that premillennialist, multiple-judgment stuff off to the side where it belongs (actually it should be pushed of a cliff somewhere and into a deep gulch from which it can not be retrieved) and it will no longer be necessary to distort the obvious meaning of this passage to accommodate your Triburapturist notions. 

Last edited by Contendah

Contendah, my Friend,

 

You have given us your negative "it ain't so!" response.  Now, maybe now you can give us an exegetical exposition based upon Scripture -- instead of what you WANT it to be.

 

If you will notice, when I make a point I support it with Scripture.  That approach might help you to better understand the Bible, if only you would give it a try.

 

Bless your heart!

 

Bill

Bible - Read Me

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Contendah, my Friend,

 

You have given us your negative "it ain't so!" response.  Now, maybe now you can give us an exegetical exposition based upon Scripture -- instead of what you WANT it to be.

 

If you will notice, when I make a point I support it with Scripture.  That approach might help you to better understand the Bible, if only you would give it a try.

 

Bless your heart!

 

Bill

Bible - Read Me

___

Take off those heavy-duty blinders, Bill and come to your senses.  I DID INDEED support what I wrote with scripture.  I showed you from the text of the very scripture at issue (I.Cor 3: 1-15) just what kind of analogy the apostle was describing.  I showed you, point by point, the analogy he constructed and how it strongly supports my interpretation of the passage. You clumsily dispute the very existence of that analogy, even though it stares you in the face from the pages of scripture.  Your introduced an element foreign to the analogy, namely your identification of "work" as the entire broad body of works of a Christian's life.   I showed you that such a stretch as that is incompatible with Paul's analogy and I used the text itself to show you that.  I gave you more than you could handle, so you dodged the actual substance of the issue--as usual.

Contendah, my Friend,

 

I beg to differ with you.  You did not exegete the Scripture passage found in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.  You only mentioned the passage -- and THEN told us what YOU believe it means, with no verse by verse explanation, no source material or references -- JUST Contendah's thoughts and confused thinking on that passage.

 

If you will notice, I did take the verses, or small group of verses -- and explain them.

 

Sorry, my Friend, no cigar -- just bad interpretation.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

2 Timothy 2-15 - Bible Inspired By God

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Contendah, my Friend,

 

I beg to differ with you.  You did not exegete the Scripture passage found in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.  You only mentioned the passage -- and THEN told us what YOU believe it means, with no verse by verse explanation, no source material or references -- JUST Contendah's thoughts and confused thinking on that passage.

 

If you will notice, I did take the verses, or small group of verses -- and explain them.

 

Sorry, my Friend, no cigar -- just bad interpretation.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

  

Bill

******************************************************************************* 

 An obvious fatal flaw of the Bill Gray OSAS-Premillennialist, multiple-judgment interpretation of 1 Cor. 3:1-15:

 

From Bill’s most recent futile attempt; highlighting the sections that, when sensibly analyzed, show the insupportability of Bill’s flawed exegesis::

 

<<<The first thing Paul reminds the Corinthian believers, and us, is that the one and only foundation for our saving faith is Jesus Christ, alone.  Paul goes on to remind us that after our solid foundation is built upon Jesus Christ; then we begin to build upon that foundation which has already saved us, i.e., now our works will be the fruit of our salvation-- for we are now called His brethren (Hebrews 2:17), children of God (John 1:12).

Paul first tells us of the spiritual believer who builds upon his solid "Jesus Christ Only" foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, i.e., works that the world cannot burn, works that will withstand the Refiner's Fire (Malachi 3:1-3).  Great will be their rewards when they stand before Jesus Christ at the Believers' Judgement (Bema Seat).

Then, Paul compares the carnal (or worldly) believer with the man who builds upon his eternal foundation using only wood, hay, and straw.  I have often referred to these believers as "couch potato" believers; they want to sit on their couch and wait for someone to come and ask them about Jesus Christ -- for they feel that going out to tell the world about the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15) -- is pushing their beliefs, their faith, upon others.>>>

 

  Question for Bill:

 

If, for the “spiritual believer”, “our works will be the fruit of our salvation”, and the so-called “carnal believer fails to produce such works, then there is no “fruit of [his] salvation.”  If there is no “fruit of his salvation”, then how can you maintain that he was saved at all?  After all, it was Jesus who said, “By their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:20).>>>

 

 You, Bill, often have argued that there are “Christians” who are in the church (or at least who show up there and claim to be members of the body) who “never were saved to begin with.” That helps you “explain” such passages as Hebrews 6:1-6, although your recitations on that passage are suffused with wishful thinking and contaminated with bogus hermeneutics. 

 

 Thus it seems strangely inconsistent for you to argue so insistently that those carnal, un-spiritual, unproductive, couch potatoes you find in the Corinthian passage were saved, even though they had no “fruit of [their] salvation.”   Perhaps you could comprehend the passage more clearly if you would just place them in that “never were saved to begin with” category, though I realize that such a concession would impair your ability to chase around after those scriptures you use to try to flaunt your passion for the Calvinist OSAS doctrine.

 

 Bill, when you classify persons as “carnal” and yet continue to advance the notion that they are saved (and can never be lost) despite their carnality, you are asserting a doctrine that flies squarely into the face of what the scriptures say about carnality. Consider what Paul told the Romans about carnally-minded folks.  From Romans 8:

 

 

“5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

 

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

 

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

 

So here is how we unpack Bill Gray’s theology, taking what an inspired apostle says about carnally minded folks and comparing that to Bill's “carnal” vs. “spiritual' systematic:

 

 Carnally-minded people “do mind the things of the flesh” but Bill says God will save them anyway, even though "they that are in the flesh "cannot please God.

 

Carnally-minded people are at “enmity with God” but Bill says that is not a problem, since they are saved despite their carnal nature.

 

Carnally-minded people are not after "the things of the Spirit" but a man need not be "after the things of the Spirit" in order to be a true Christian believer.  God will save him anyway, according to Bill's reckoning.

 

"[T]o be carnally-minded is death," writes Paul, but Bill exegetes a way for carnally-minded people to enjoy eternal life.  Here we have something of a 180-degree thing, do we not? If "death" in this verse does not apply to spiritual death and a state of eternal condemnation, then to what does it apply?  No rational person would contend that "death" here means only the end of mortal life.

 

To summarize:  Carnally-minded people are “in the flesh” and “cannot please God,” but Bill says God won’t be concerned about that. In Bill’s attempt at exegesis, God will keep the gates of Heaven open for them, even though they “do mind the things of the flesh”, are at “enmity” with Him and do not please Him.

 

 And THAT, dear friends, shows just what kind of an exegetical land mine Bill Gray lands himself on top of when he strives against all reason to splice into I Cor. 3:13 an element of the analogy that Paul did not include.

 

 

Last edited by Contendah

Contendah, my Friend,

 

You claim,  "An obvious fatal flaw of the Bill Gray OSAS-Premillennialist, multiple-judgment interpretation of 1 Cor. 3:1-15."

 

Actually, I make no such claim!   1 Corinthians 3:10-15 is about ONLY the Believers' Judgment which takes place in heaven during the seven year Tribulation.  This is a judgment of rewards, or lack of rewards, where the Bride of Christ, the church, i.e., all raptured believers will, for the first time, be attributed our own righteousness. 

 

In this mortal life, man can have no righteousness before God (Isaiah 64:6, "And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. . .").  But, praise God, at the moment we believe, we are imputed, i.e., attributed, the righteousness of Jesus Christ:  

 

Romans 3:22, "Even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;. . ."

Philippians 3:9, "And may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

 

So that, in this mortal life, when God view us -- He sees, not our unrighteousness, but instead He sees the righteousness of Jesus Christ, our spiritual umbrella.

 

Yet, at the Believers' Judgment in heaven, we will receive our own righteousness before God.  Finally we will be able to stand before God on our own.

 

Before the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, we, the Bride of Christ, will finally receive our wedding robe:

 

Revelation 19:8, "It was given to her (the Bride of Christ) to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints."

 

Therefore, the judgment spoken of in the 1 Corinthians 3:10-16 is the Believers' Judgment (Bema Seat Judgment) in heaven.

Then, at the Second Coming of Christ, there will be the Sheep and Goats Judgment of all who survive the Tribulation (Matthew 25:31-46).  The Goats, non-believing survivors, will go into eternal punishment (verse 46a).  And, the Sheep, believers will go into eternal life (verse 46b).  The first part of that eternal life will be when the surviving believers go into the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ on earth.  Then, they will go into the eternal presence of God. 

 

Finally, after the end of the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom of Christ, the non-believing dead will be resurrected into their immortal bodies -- and will stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment, a judgment of punishment.  From there they will go into eternal and everlasting punishment (Revelation 20:11-15).

 

So, when you make the false claim, ""An obvious fatal flaw of the Bill Gray OSAS-Premillennialist, multiple-judgment interpretation of 1 Cor. 3:1-15" -- that is totally wrong.  There is ONLY one judgment found in the Scripture passage of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 -- the Believers' Judgment.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Revelation 19-7-8, 14 - Bride in White Linen - White Horse - Border - 2

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