What kind of punishment for illegal abortions?

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
Back,

It just doesn't matter why a woman wants a legal abortion. She does not need to answer to us or anyone else.

DF

Yes,in a way you are right.It goes back to the legality of abortion.We'll always disagree on that issue,so there is no sense arguing about it.

That's not what I've read, Deep?

NY Times..."The First Ache"

Again, my stance is that when in doubt, the humane choice is to err on the side of the human life in the womb.

Cold? HA! See there, it's true. What goes around comes around. That will teach you to torment us with your perfect weather conditions.

My dear,

You read in the article: In the absence of such first-person testimony, he concludes, it’s “better to err on the safe side” and assume that the fetus can feel pain starting around 20 to 24 weeks.

That's pretty close to the third trimester. Even if we quibble about exactly when a fetus feels pain, we must remember pain is a reality. We feel pain when we have our finger *****ed for a blood test. Does that make the blood test evil?

I could go on, but that's enough.


DF

Yes, Deep, he's quite PC...whose safe side is he addressing? The woman's or the child's? I was more interested in his findings. Again, the humane choice is to err on the side of the child. Nobody wants to admit that. It's much easier to excuse abortion if we don't pay any mind to who we are aborting.

JMHO

My dear Joy,

Why do you assume errancy? When a woman decides to abort a pregnancy, it is not necessarily wrong. There is no "err" to be decided upon.

It's not a matter of admitting errancy, it's a matter of whether it exists in the first place.

If a woman has the basic human right to determine what use her body has to her, she has the right (to a point) to either continue or abort an unviable fetus. This is not necessarily an inviolable right, but it MUST be taken into consideration. And if the benefit of the doubt is to be given someone, why less the living, breathing, rights-endowed woman than the unviable fetus.

Ceteris Paribus, women have sought abortions for thousands of years. I do not know the reasons, I am not a woman. It occurs to me they might have fine reasons for choosing so. Would you have them risk death, neutering, dismemberment, and infection for choosing what they seem to consider their right to do?

I would not. I have that much respect and concern for women. Those women who do not see it this way should not have abortions, but perfectly "pro-life" girls of 16 often change their minds abruptly.


DF

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
My dear Joy,

Why do you assume errancy? When a woman decides to abort a pregnancy, it is not necessarily wrong. There is no "err" to be decided upon.

It's not a matter of admitting errancy, it's a matter of whether it exists in the first place.

If a woman has the basic human right to determine what use her body has to her, she has the right (to a point) to either continue or abort an unviable fetus. This is not necessarily an inviolable right, but it MUST be taken into consideration. And if the benefit of the doubt is to be given someone, why less the living, breathing, rights-endowed woman than the unviable fetus.

Ceteris Paribus, women have sought abortions for thousands of years. I do not know the reasons, I am not a woman. It occurs to me they might have fine reasons for choosing so. Would you have them risk death, neutering, dismemberment, and infection for choosing what they seem to consider their right to do?

I would not. I have that much respect and concern for women. Those women who do not see it this way should not have abortions, but perfectly "pro-life" girls of 16 often change their minds abruptly.


DF

Deep, as evidenced by your incoherent ramblings, I'm beginning to wonder if you are a viable human being. I'm afraid I can't give you the benefit of a doubt, so I must assume you are not.

Deep, I'm really glad that you are concerned for pregnant women. It's too bad that everyone with so much concern for pregnant women don't give the same decency to children in the womb, but they don't.

I'll try this one more time. Since we cannot prove without doubt when a human being within the womb would experience pain when it is killed, the humane thing to do is NOT kill it. That is just the sickest thing. I can't believe anyone with a heart cannot see that.

Furthermore, as I've said before, if the child in the womb could choose, he or she would not choose to die. The survival instinct is extremely strong in humans. That child does not deserve death.

For the vast majority that end a human life because they simply don't want to give birth? I don't know how they live with that. That's cold, IMO...a barbaric act that we have legalized. It makes me sick.

Thanks, Joy.

I must admit I find the rights of the woman involved are mentioned rarely in this sort of discussion. Stranger yet are women clamoring to disregard those rights in all circumstances.

I submit it is absurd to say that an unviable, inadequately-formed fetus has more rights than an American woman. We can discuss when the fetus gets those rights, but a sober, intelligent discussion will yield an answer pretty close to the status quo, I'd bet.

I understand that childbirth evokes lots of emotions. We must look at rights a little more dispassionately.

Why does the anti-abortion crowd ignore the rights of women? When you shuck this down to the cob, it's just an old-fashioned sexual hangup. The Anti-Sex League wants girls to get pregnant if they have sex, as a deterrent. See Backwoods' comment a few posts above.

The true anti-abortionists out there must put their high school age girls on The Pill and buy the boys the Deluxe Economy Size box of good quality condoms. How many of them do you think do that for their cause?

Safe, legal abortion means no dead women from septic abortions. Safe, legal abortion means women can postpone childbirth until a more suitable time and most do.

DF

quote:

Safe, legal abortion means women can postpone childbirth until a more suitable time and most do.

Not having unprotected sex is a good way to accomplish the same thing.

We agree, sir. Pass out the condoms to the kids.


DF

quote:

Again, my stance is that when in doubt, the humane choice is to err on the side of the human life in the womb.

I am confused, Joy.

In the past, you have stated in clear language that you are in favor of the woman's right to choose in this matter. You have also made it clear that you do not approve.

Would you care to clarify?

quote:

For the vast majority that end a human life because they simply don't want to give birth?

I certainly agree that this is not a preferred birth control mechanism. But it is self correcting. Women must either use birth control (and, as always the man has no responsibility here) or face a potentially life-threatening surgical procedure.

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
Thanks, Joy.

I must admit I find the rights of the woman involved are mentioned rarely in this sort of discussion. Stranger yet are women clamoring to disregard those rights in all circumstances.

I submit it is absurd to say that an unviable, inadequately-formed fetus has more rights than an American woman. We can discuss when the fetus gets those rights, but a sober, intelligent discussion will yield an answer pretty close to the status quo, I'd bet.

I understand that childbirth evokes lots of emotions. We must look at rights a little more dispassionately.

Why does the anti-abortion crowd ignore the rights of women? When you shuck this down to the cob, it's just an old-fashioned sexual hangup. The Anti-Sex League wants girls to get pregnant if they have sex, as a deterrent. See Backwoods' comment a few posts above.

The true anti-abortionists out there must put their high school age girls on The Pill and buy the boys the Deluxe Economy Size box of good quality condoms. How many of them do you think do that for their cause?

Safe, legal abortion means no dead women from septic abortions. Safe, legal abortion means women can postpone childbirth until a more suitable time and most do.

DF

What about the rights of the innocent baby?

For the first two trimesters, they are simply outweighed by the rights of the woman.

DF

quote:

What about the rights of the innocent baby?

That defines the debate, doesn't it?. When you can define the exact point that the rights of the fetus (not "baby") supersede the rights of the woman you will win the prize.

quote:

Originally posted by Skeptik:

quote:

Again, my stance is that when in doubt, the humane choice is to err on the side of the human life in the womb.

I am confused, Joy.

In the past, you have stated in clear language that you are in favor of the woman's right to choose in this matter. You have also made it clear that you do not approve.

Would you care to clarify?

I know I've said the law is the law & it's not likely to change. I've also said that I'd never be this blunt with a woman making the decision to abort and that it would likely be a difficult decision. However, no way do I agree that abortion is a wise choice or a humane choice.

I am a woman, DF. Why in the world would I ignore my own rights?

I know you are not seriously saying that this is some secret plot to keep people from having sex. Please.

quote:

Originally posted by Skeptik:

quote:

What about the rights of the innocent baby?

That defines the debate, doesn't it?. When you can define the exact point that the rights of the fetus (not "baby") supersede the rights of the woman you will win the prize.

Oh, I don't know, how early would you personally feel comfortable killing that life with your own hands as it fights to live? Hmm? Whose ready to get their hands dirty? Anybody?

quote:

I am a woman, DF. Why in the world would I ignore my own rights?

I suspected you are a woman, and I'm glad you have the right to choose. You have and had rights and you chose within them.

And it's no secret plot, it's pretty well laid out for us to see. Darn near every anti-abortion type will eventually say "Well, she knew what she was getting into when she blah blah blah...".

Childbirth is a serious event, and it should be deliberate and wanted. When an imminent childbirth is neither, certain alternatives should be available, for a limited time, granted.

The Catholic church has a wildly perverse attitude toward human sexuality. Evangelical and other conservative Protestant sects somewhat less so, but in the same vein.

DF

Well, I guess that depends on your definition of perverse.

I just know God invented sex and as mentioned recently, there is a whole book of the Bible filled with heated love messages.

It's also thankfully one of the few things left that is free at my house, hallelujah. So, we're pro-sex in our marriage and I'm 99% sure everyone at my church agrees it's a good thing.

Song of Solomon cracks me up actually, especially that gazelle part. They even had bad pick up lines in Bible times.

Soloman 9:12

"The voices in my head told me to buy you a drink"


DF

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
For the vast majority that end a human life because they simply don't want to give birth

I would think giving birth is the easy part. It is providing for and responsibly raising a child for 21 years that strikes me as much more challenging.

Just my thoughts....

Peace

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Song of Solomon cracks me up actually, especially that gazelle part. They even had bad pick up lines in Bible times.

Woohoo! We are finally talking about Song of Solomon. Now I can interject. Old Solomon was my kind of dude. First, he is known for his wisdom. That's a good start. Then he was the son of David and inherited riches. That's a little better. He had 700 wives and 300 concubines. I don't know, he must have had some kind of good pick up line. Something was working for him. And then he either writes or is the subject of a hot book that is named after him and is also known as the Song of Songs.

Now we do know he was a little too submissive to the wives and got into their religion so God punished the kingdom after Solomon's death. But old Solomon had already partied with about 1,000 women, enough to kill any red blooded male. But I would bet he died with a smile on his face.

Well, if I remember correctly, the gazelle was Solomon...hahaha! No, I'm serious. It was the girl with the bad pick up line.

quote:

Originally posted by 8I:

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
For the vast majority that end a human life because they simply don't want to give birth

I would think giving birth is the easy part. It is providing for and responsibly raising a child for 21 years that strikes me as much more challenging.

Just my thoughts....

Peace

She doesn't have to keep the baby.

quote:

I know I've said the law is the law & it's not likely to change. I've also said that I'd never be this blunt with a woman making the decision to abort and that it would likely be a difficult decision. However, no way do I agree that abortion is a wise choice or a humane choice.

Joy,

That does little to clear up my confusion. You seem to be saying that you are pro-choice but wish you weren't. If you had to choose, which would it be, pro choice or anti-abortion?

The power vested in me, I just made you The Decider. You get to settle this whole debate once and for all.

What will be your rules on abortion?

(For the record, if I were The Decider, my rules would be pretty much how they are now: unrestricted abortion in the first trimester, more restrictive in the second, and only for health reasons in the third.)

No, Skep, what I wish is that everyone would agree that abortion is barbaric and make such a barbaric act illegal. Since that's not going to happen, I work with the hand I've been dealt as best I can.

I also think that we don't make people in crisis a priority in our country. We have been dealing with our own country's problems about as well as we've been dealing with other countries.

Joy,

Excess in many things seems barbaric. I find a safe, legal abortion of an early pregnancy much less barbaric than finding dead women on the streets who were killed by illegal abortions.

Octomom, that grinning idiot, with 14 babies she can't raise. That's barbaric.

DF

Here's a wacky idea. The punishment for performing back alley abortions should be strong enough to deter it, strictly enforced, no exceptions and no excuses, zero tolerance. In fact, that should already be on the books. Nobody would argue that one.

I agree with you that giving birth to your own village is irresponsible, to say the least.

Sorry to rain on the parade, but I'd like to talk about the original topic.

quote:

Originally posted by Skeptik:
Those of you who voted "yes" on criminalizing abortion, what kind of punishment should the criminal receive if she is convicted of obtaining an illegal abortion?

Hey Skeptik,

That is a good question. I would say that if you criminalize abortion there needs to be different penalties for the doctor, the mother, and accomplices.

If abortion is murder, the doctor and the mother should both be facing the same penalties for murder. Anyone who helped either party our is an accomplice to murder.

That is just a logical result (assuming abortion is murder).

Why criminalize something if it does not have consequences?

Best,

quote:

Here's a wacky idea. The punishment for performing back alley abortions should be strong enough to deter it, strictly enforced, no exceptions and no excuses, zero tolerance. In fact, that should already be on the books. Nobody would argue that one.

Joy,

It's been tried. Like Prohibition. It didn't work. It resulted in the deaths of quite a few women.

We've weighed the choices and come to the agreement of safe, legal abortion, within limits.

Anyone who disagrees with this is welcome to not have an abortion.


DF

Prosecuting butchers resulted in women dying?

M'luv,

Very few back alley abortions happened without the consent and invitation of the woman in question.

Butchers, indeed.


DF

Deep, if I wanted to dance, I'd at least do so to music.

I say - wish abortion were illegal
You say - women killed by illegal abortions
I say - prosecute those performing illegal abortions
You say - they're innocent because the woman said it was okay?

Hep me get that last one.

NOTE: To prevent hearing a sermon from someone on the current laws regarding abortion - this is a hypothetical situation.

Well, Joy,

It's kinda like milkshakes. You might think the making of milkshakes is evil and corrupt in all it's forms.

But, if no one asked for a milkshake, then the evil of making one would never exist. If no one offered the milkshake maker money for her service, there would be no milkshakes.

But, for reasons we need not defend, there is a demand for milkshakes. They will be made. The difference is that when milkshakes are made legally, they are not be poisoned.

OK, so I'm not so good at metaphors. But you get the idea that without demand there is no supply. And regardless of legality, there will always be a demand for abortions.

I suggest if you want to end abortion, you work on the spiritual, philosophical argument against it, rather than the legal. There is some evidence that this is the reason why support for legal abortion is somewhat less than it was 30 years ago.


DF

Have all the milkshakes you want.

Just don't stick me with the check.

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
OK, so I'm not so good at metaphors. But you get the idea that without demand there is no supply. And regardless of legality, there will always be a demand for abortions.

Illegal would be illegal. Either breaking the law, regardless of demand, would be prosecuted.

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
I suggest if you want to end abortion, you work on the spiritual, philosophical argument against it, rather than the legal. There is some evidence that this is the reason why support for legal abortion is somewhat less than it was 30 years ago.


DF

I've never understood the "if you spent as much time doing X as you do Y, you'd make better progress" argument. Do both X AND Y to double your progress.

However, I was just answering Skeptic's questions and addressing your replies to my answers. I've said a gazillion times that abortion will remain legal. Our society becomes more self-absorbed and callous as time passes, not less.

Ah, but my dear friend Zip,

Would you rather pay for a $2 milkshake or a $2 Million dollar welfare milkshake baby?

Metaphors aside, would you rather pay for a $300 abortion or a million dollar welfare baby?

I know, I know, I'm a monster. Really, I'm not. When we decry Octomom and other welfare moms, we should either accept childhood by choice or pay up.

It takes a village. Right? Ready to pay?

DF

My dear Joy,

If the realization that finite resources should be spent on the deserving poor, instead of those who play the system, then call me callous.

A woman (and a man) who brings a welfare child into the world and then claims poverty worthy of welfare is like the Menendez brothers who killed their parents and then asked for mercy because they were orphans.

It's just not right.

DF

Given the third choice of a $3000 sterilization procedure to go along with the $300 abortion, I'd go with that one.