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Hi Dark,

 

Your link would not open; but, let me just say that I am not a fan of religions either.   Religions are comprised of man-made traditions, rituals, and dogmas -- and do not honor God.

 

On the other hand, as a Christian believer, I have a very personal relationship (as one would have with a spouse or other loved one -- but, much greater) which does not call for traditions, rituals, or dogmas -- only obedience.

 

As I have often said, "Try it, you will like it!"

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

1 Corinthians 1-18 - Before The Cross - 1

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  • 1 Corinthians 1-18 - Before The Cross - 1

Hmmmm works fine for me. You have to click on the image to enlarge it. It is a pretty huge image so it might take a minute.

 

You have a religion Bill. You worship and attend services. You follow a doctrine and an ancient book written by men. Many of the things you say on this forum come directly from your religious belief. All religion is man made. Even yours.

 

To me religion promotes much of the hate and intolerance in the world today. It gives humans something to point to and say "I don't think you should have this right because it is against my beliefs" It also affords those that would kill and murder in the name of their god the ability to do so without remorse. It rarely (if ever) stays in the realm of "a personal relationship" between you and your god. I have a personal relationship with my spouse and just because we do things a certain way in our marriage I do not expect or demand that others have the same kind of marriage as I do. As I have witnessed many times here on this forum and in the world outside, all religious groups feel the need to tell others they are doing it wrong. Some go so far as to kill anyone who disagrees.

 

If the world we live in is a deterministic world how could the atheists argue against religion?

The vast majority is and has been religious for all of recorded history. Do you non-religious have the free will to  choose not to be religious? Your atheist leaders are determinist and do not believe in free will. I think likely the cause of your confusion and frantic lifestyle is very well founded on misinformation.

  It appears obvious that the genius you atheist claim to have over the religious is never used due to your dull understanding of science and God.

Religion may be a component of a conflict, but it is rarely the main reason for one. There are those killed for being of a different faith, yet Christianity, Judaism and Islam all condemn murder. It is the extreme fanatics who use 'GOD' as a cause for their own immorality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war


Violence committed by secular governments and people, including the anti-religious, have been documented including some instances of violence or persecutions focused on religious believers and those who believe in the supernatural. World War I, World War II, many civil wars (American, El Salvador, Russia, Sri Lanka, China etc.), revolutionary wars (American, French, Russian, etc.), and common conflicts such as gang and drug wars (e.g. Mexican Drug War) or even the War on Terrorism, have all been secular.

Jack David Eller, an anthropologist of culture, violence, and religion who himself is an atheist, claims: "As we have insisted previously, religion is not inherently and irredeemably violent; it certainly is not the essence and source of all violence."[13] and "Religion and violence are clearly compatible, but they are not identical. Violence is one phenomenon in human (and natural existence), religion is another, and it is inevitable that the two would become intertwined. Religion is complex and modular, and violence is one of the modules - not universal, but recurring. As a conceptual and behavioral module, violence is by no means exclusive to religion. There are plenty of other groups, institutions, interests, and ideologies to promote violence. Violence is, therefore, neither essential to nor exclusive to religion. Nor is religious violence all alike... And virtually every form of religious violence has its nonreligious corollary."[14]

Originally Posted by Zazu:

It speaks volumes about fanatics, anyway. But they would not be fanatics if they did not exist outside the normal parameters of acceptable behavior.

 

Someone took a long time to pull all that together.

___________________________________________

 

I could come up with that many more examples of religious atrocities in about an hour. It is everywhere. Even right here in our own home town. Just ask the guy that opposed school sponsored prayer at Brooks high school. His elderly parents house had a brick thrown through the window, he received so many death threats from Christians that he had to go into hiding, a group of over 4,000 local citizens started a facebook page and called for such things as boycotting any business that employed atheist. They wanted to get him fired from his job until they found out that he worked for a national company and they had no real pull outside this small town. There were threats leveled against us (atheist) by many on the facebook page and our very own Rramm/vega/6pack/bro&sisSimpson was very vocal there.

 

Even in RI where the brave young 16 year old girl fought and won a case to make her school take down a prayer banner that hung on the gym wall was threatened with everything from murder to rape. Parents of the children that attended the school told their children to beat her. She had to attend school with armed guards.

 

To down play all that you saw in that image and to say it is the "fringe" is to turn a blind eye to the horrible acts that religious believers enact on society daily.

 

To blame all violence on the religious is to ignore basic human nature. As I posted, the great wars were based on secular reasons.

Are there people who rail against someone unfairly based solely on religion? Yes.

Are they despicable? Yes. 

Do they represent the other 95% who did not attack someone? No.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Even right here in our own home town. Just ask the guy that opposed school sponsored prayer at Brooks high school. His elderly parents house had a brick thrown through the window, he received so many death threats from Christians that he had to go into hiding, a group of over 4,000 local citizens started a facebook page and called for such things as boycotting any business that employed atheist. They wanted to get him fired from his job until they found out that he worked for a national company and they had no real pull outside this small town. There were threats leveled against us (atheist) by many on the facebook page and our very own Rramm/vega/6pack/bro&sisSimpson was very vocal there.

 

____

If I remember correctly we have a "Christian" member on this forum that supported that FB & even said in a post here that he thought it was a good thing. Of course, he'll say he didn't as is his MO but I could probably find it.

I'm sorry that you & other Atheist were threatened. There's some sick people hiding behind a mask of Christianity.

Originally Posted by Zazu:

To blame all violence on the religious is to ignore basic human nature. As I posted, the great wars were based on secular reasons.

Are there people who rail against someone unfairly based solely on religion? Yes.

Are they despicable? Yes. 

Do they represent the other 95% who did not attack someone? No.

__________________________________

 

Well Zazu, I did not blame all the violence in the world on the religious. I pointed out how rampant violence is within the religious community. I am not talking about wars. Most of what was in that image was religious individuals or sects that were using violence against those they believe go against their own beliefs. They use it to coerce and force their beliefs on others.

 

 

My take on the premise is that it's similar to comparing all who support animal welfare to members of the Animal Liberation Front. Those who support such atrocities are few and far between, but they will always be there.

 

Does that stop me from working in animal rescue or belonging to other groups which support improving the lot of animals? No. Does the stray vigilante who murders a suspected rapist stop me from participating in rape counseling and the support of improved laws concerning sex offenders? No.

Originally Posted by Chuck Farley:

Actually I've never gave my affiliation and I don't care about anyone else.  Personally I find Christians less annoying because they are bugging me about something they actually believe in.

------------------

Who's "bugging" you about atheism? I notice you're strong on the politics forum. Why? Why do you feel you have to remind people every day of your political leanings? Why do you "bug" people about that?

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Zazu:

To blame all violence on the religious is to ignore basic human nature. As I posted, the great wars were based on secular reasons.

Are there people who rail against someone unfairly based solely on religion? Yes.

Are they despicable? Yes. 

Do they represent the other 95% who did not attack someone? No.

__________________________________

 

Well Zazu, I did not blame all the violence in the world on the religious. I pointed out how rampant violence is within the religious community. I am not talking about wars. Most of what was in that image was religious individuals or sects that were using violence against those they believe go against their own beliefs. They use it to coerce and force their beliefs on others.

 

 

As the  anthropologist Eller said above,

 

As a conceptual and behavioral module, violence is by no means exclusive to religion. There are plenty of other groups, institutions, interests, and ideologies to promote violence. Violence is, therefore, neither essential to nor exclusive to religion.

 

I'm not sure i would say that violence is rampant. Considering how many thousands of churches exist and how many people claim to hold a religious view, it would be a very small percentage. Those that do force their ideas onto others make the headlines.

 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Originally Posted by Chuck Farley:

Actually I've never gave my affiliation and I don't care about anyone else.  Personally I find Christians less annoying because they are bugging me about something they actually believe in.

------------------

Who's "bugging" you about atheism? I notice you're strong on the politics forum. Why? Why do you feel you have to remind people every day of your political leanings? Why do you "bug" people about that?

Because I believe politics exists.  If I thought it didn't I  wouldn't herold the world of its non existence. 

Originally Posted by Zazu:

 

I'm not sure i would say that violence is rampant. Considering how many thousands of churches exist and how many people claim to hold a religious view, it would be a very small percentage. Those that do force their ideas onto others make the headlines.

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

Does anything you said up there change the fact that this is religious violence? Personally I can't except it as "ok" just because it is a few million violent believers....since there is so many more that are just in the background acting in a supportive role.

 

Sort of like child molesters, just because every adult does not abuse children doesn't mean I don't concern myself with the ones that do.

 

Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

My take on the premise is that it's similar to comparing all who support animal welfare to members of the Animal Liberation Front...

==
No one has lumped all theists of any or all religions together.

The thing is though, religious criminals find all the immoral support they need in the words and actions exemplified by their holy books. Books supposedly inspired/written by their god.

More importantly, anyone who willingly suspends their natural disbelief in the ridiculous and thinks they have a personal relationship with an invisible deity who offers life after death, is capable of anything.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Zazu:

 

I'm not sure i would say that violence is rampant. Considering how many thousands of churches exist and how many people claim to hold a religious view, it would be a very small percentage. Those that do force their ideas onto others make the headlines.

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

Does anything you said up there change the fact that this is religious violence? Personally I can't except it as "ok" just because it is a few million violent believers....since there is so many more that are just in the background acting in a supportive role.

 

Sort of like child molesters, just because every adult does not abuse children doesn't mean I don't concern myself with the ones that do.

 

Dang....I meant to say *accept not except....LOL

 


Religion and politics in the United States


Politicians frequently discuss their religion when campaigning, and many churches and religious figures are highly politically active. As important as religion is in politics, Jefferson, the third president of the United States, had to fight his way into office due to his controversial thoughts about religion. His writing was often seen as anti-Christian. It is argued that Jefferson’s win can be linked to him changing the election’s narrative from one about his own religious beliefs, to one about his tolerance of religious freedom (Lambert).[8]

However, to keep their status as tax-exempt organizations they must not officially endorse a candidate. There are Christians in both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, but evangelical Christians tend to support the Republican Party whereas more liberal Christians and secular voters[9] tend to support the Democratic Party.

Every President and Vice President,[citation needed] with the exception of the current president, Barack Obama,[10][11] was raised in a family with affiliations with Christian religions. Only former President John F. Kennedy, and current Vice President Joe Biden were raised in Roman Catholic families. Two former presidents, Richard Nixon and Herbert Hoover, were raised as Quakers. All the rest were raised in families affiliated with Protestant Christianity. However, many presidents have themselves had only a nominal affiliation with churches, and some never joined any church.

 

More:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...in_the_United_States


Originally Posted by Chuck Farley:

Sorry I didn't ask who cares I pointed out no one cares (except the same Atheists who like to tell us all about their irreligion day in and day out.)  We get it you are special.

-----------------------

 Religion and how it affects this country is important, and has nothing to do with telling you about non-belief. Why do christians feel like they need to tell us about their "religion" every day? Why do they feel they can dictate how we live? Want to talk about thinking you're special? I'd say that's you and others that want us to treat your opinion as law, and don't want a rebuttal or different opinion. Don't like atheists posting? Don't read them. Don't care? Don't be here. Go back to politics and make more threads. Who knows, maybe obama sneezed yesterday, you could make a thread about that.

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:
Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

My take on the premise is that it's similar to comparing all who support animal welfare to members of the Animal Liberation Front...

==
No one has lumped all theists of any or all religions together.

The thing is though, religious criminals find all the immoral support they need in the words and actions exemplified by their holy books. Books supposedly inspired/written by their god.

More importantly, anyone who willingly suspends their natural disbelief in the ridiculous and thinks they have a personal relationship with an invisible deity who offers life after death, is capable of anything.

[A Rob quote]
“More importantly, anyone who willingly suspends their natural disbelief in the ridiculous and thinks they have a personal relationship with an invisible deity who offers life after death, is capable of anything“.[Rob]

 

Rob what is one’s natural belief?

What is the ridiculous?

If one supposedly suspends a “natural “ belief into a “ridiculous”,  one cannot from that suspension prove either ridiculous or natural, for then one has a “hybrid” suspension that something external to it is required to declare the suspension of the two as natural or ridiculous. Then the paradox. A circle drawn around this newfound notion of “natural, ridiculous, and the external, then requires something external to the three to prove anything within the circle and so on to infinity. That being the scientifically argued case only the Omni God can be outside the beginning or infinity.

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