When people ask why I have a problem with religion....

I stand corrected on my use of the term. Thank you.

But even a 'non-belief' is a stance on religion.

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Not on religion only. There are plenty of things people don't believe in, there are plenty of things I don't believe in, a god is only one of those things. 

Bill forgets all the Christians that come to the forums, see his ridiculousness, or are just told how wrong they are, and leave.  Notice in Bill's list, none of the Catholics are mentioned.  I guess they aren't Christian enough to be Christians in Bill's addled mind.  Bill's selective memory has kicked into high gear.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Do you consider yourself to be a part of the atheism stance on religion?

I also believe it is wrong to force religious beliefs by any means on any person. This country is a country of laws. Both religious and non religious laws have been passed throughout the years. We are required to live by these laws until we are able to get new laws enacted. If you believe a certain way you will naturally fight to have certain laws enacted. This is true with both believers of God and non believers of God. To say that Christians are forcing their beliefs on others in this country is not true any more than a non believer is forcing their beliefs on a Christian. A Christian has a right to state his beliefs just as a non believer has a right to state his beliefs. A Christian would never want to force someone into being a Christian because they would not be a Christian they would still be a non believer.

A Christian would never want to force someone into being a Christian because they would not be a Christian they would still be a non believer.

Good point.

"Atheism stance"?

Do you think that you are the only one who has heard people who call theirselves Christians say and do things wrong'? There are both Christians and antichrists who do these things. It has been this way even when Jesus walked the earth. Is God pleased when his Children crucify Christ all over again, I think not! I wittness these things all the time and am guilty of a lot of them. I will have to answer for these things as will everyone else, including the antichrists. Christians will have Jesus Christ defending them before God the antichrist will not. It will not be enough for the antichrist to say to God, 'I saw Christians belittling others and gossiping against others, putting them down and judging them. They were making fun of others, calling them names, I could go on and on........"  You are right, God will not be pleased but it will not help your case.

 God will not be pleased but it will not help your case.

Oh brother!

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

"Atheism stance"?

Not on religion only. There are plenty of things people don't believe in, there are plenty of things I don't believe in, a god is only one of those things.

Let me be more clear.  You are an atheist. You came to this decision after having been part of a religious denomination, I believe you said. So you do not now believe in the existence of deities.  That would make you part of a group of people who share the same ideas about religion, ergo atheism is a stance on religion, itself being a separate belief system opposing the other varied religious beliefs. So atheism is a cult/religion itself.

I think you're having a problem with your definitions.

I would have to agree. That is false logic.

 "You are right, God will not be pleased but it will not help your case."[Gingee]

Gengee dear you have said it all and in such few words. Bravo!! Brilliant!!!

haha Crust that goes for you too; fence setter.

I'm going to think about that for a while Gingee .

So would I.  You see, the reason religious people hate those with whom they disagree is because they are threatened with invindication.  What seems real to them is not seen as real by others.

Yes, I cannot vindicate the religious, but I offer no competing religion to supplant their religion.  It's all
BS.

DF

Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

I am open to any suggestions where I am wrong.

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

I have seen no evidence of hate.  I have seen a lot of accusations from each side, I have seen derogatory remarks, but I have not seen hate. Why would someone hate someone else simply because they disagree with a particular viewpoint? Why would they hate an anonymous voice on a forum that cannot possible have any interaction in their lives? You can consider all religion to be pure bull, but your opinion is no more valid than theirs. You cannot prove they are wrong and they cannot prove you are right.

Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

I am open to any suggestions where I am wrong.

Let's try this.  Say we are talking about elves.

Simply not believing in elves is not much of a belief system.

But, not believing in elves so far as to actively try to disprove elves, blog that elves don’t exist, spend money advertising that elves don’t exist, and take the time and effort and resources to ridicule elf believers , then it most definitely turns into a belief system.

(I could not edit the post above)

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Not everyone who say's, 'Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of Heaven. Get it?

1 John says “Even now, many antichrists have come.

Matthew says “For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible”.

2 John says “Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist”.

1 John says "Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the Antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son".

Show me where I have proclaimed to be Christ or a Prophet. What are these great signs and miracles that I have performed? Show me where I have said that I know Jesus Christ is not coming in the flesh.

Show me where I have ever said that God does not exist, show me where I have ever denied Him.

You refer to me as one of those Antichrist, then show me exactly how you came to know this about me.

Can you back up your claim with proof, or will you run off as you usually do when faced with something you can't prove?

As I said, get that beam out of your own eye, especially before you start judging & putting a label on me!

BTW, just exactly what is "my case"?

Let's try this.  Say we are talking about elves.

Simply not believing in elves is not much of a belief system.

But, not believing in elves so far as to actively try to disprove elves, blog that elves don’t exist, spend money advertising that elves don’t exist, and take the time and effort and resources to ridicule elf believers , then it most definitely turns into a belief system.

(I could not edit the post above)

------------------------------------------

I'm not all that "up" on elves so you'll have to explain a bit. Do you have a lot of problems where you are with elf believers wanting tax exemptions, "elfin magic" taught in your schools and running your government?  How do the elves feel about the smurfs? Do they think they shouldn't have the same rights as elves because they're blue?

Shame you couldn't edit because your "anology"/argument is ridiculous. 

It seems 'ridiculous' is the main word used by atheists.

Alright, my apologies on the elves. The idea was that when a group of people form a coordinated alliance that has meetings, an agenda, leaders and promotions, it becomes a viable accepted group. When billboards are put up comparing religion to fairy tales, this group is known as anti religion. Since that would be in opposition to those who believe in religion, it can appear to be a separate belief system of its own.  But since that seems to not be the case according to the atheists, i will drop that.

Would you consider Humanism to be a belief system?

Dictionary.com definition of Humanism-

Which one do you belong to: atheist or Humanist?

You can see how these two are rather confusing. It seems that the atheist group is more vocal against organized religion while the humanist group is focused more on acceptance of their belief as an alternative to religion..  Would that be correct?

http://www.michaelnugent.com/b...and-humanist-groups/


4. What do Atheist groups want?

Explicitly ‘Atheist’ groups share a broadly similar core of aims, adapted to local circumstances. As one example of the many such groups in the USA, the Atheist Coalition of San Diego has these aims: (1) To keep a firm, tall, and wide wall separating church and state. (2) To promote atheism as a worthwhile and wholesome point of view. (3) To promote science literacy.


5. What do Humanist groups want?

Explicitly ‘Humanist’ groups also share a broadly similar core of aims, again adapted to local circumstances. The American Humanist Association has these aims: (1) To be a clear, democratic voice for Humanism. (2) To increase public awareness and acceptance of Humanism. (3) To establish, protect and promote the position of Humanists in society. (4) To develop and advance Humanist thought and action.


6. How do Atheist and Humanist groups differ?

Most Atheist and Humanist groups share broadly the same fundamental aims, though each group phrases them differently. They usually support rational enquiry into the nature of reality, mutual empathy as the basis of ethical relations, and secular equality as the basis of civic government. And they usually campaign to promote these aims within society.

There are some differences in emphasis. Some groups that label themselves as Atheist can be more assertive in how they campaign, and less deterred by how others might perceive the word atheist. Some groups that label themselves as Humanist can be more focused on creating a common Humanist identity as an alternative to religion, and may conduct secular services for weddings, baby-naming and funerals.

But these differences in emphasis do not depend on the labels. Any of the above groups could conduct their activities with integrity under the label Atheist or Humanist, or indeed Secularist, Rationalist, Skeptical, Freethought or Freedom from Religion. In practice, the labels and activities of each group reflect the diversity of personalities and self-definitions among independent thinkers, and the historical and social circumstances in which each group operates.

------------------------------

 Both. 

I see.

Vonnegut explains it this way:

"...being a Humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead." - Kurt Vonnegut

I couldn't agree more.

_____________

Me too.

____________________________________

I won't argue that at all. Humans control their own destiny's and through science and compassion for others we can achieve many things. I believe that. So yes it is a belief.

I also believe that Democracy is the best political stance.

I believe that vaccinations are safe for children and necessary.

I believe that Auburn is the best football team in Alabama.

A better question might be would atheism or humanism exist if there were no religions?

A better question might be would atheism or humanism exist if there were no religions?

An interesting question. If religion did not exist, it would seem that there would not be a need for atheism as there would be nothing to oppose. But that would be only in the strictest sense of atheism being against a deity based religion. I don't think atheism has a problem with non deity religions. But, as i am being corrected often, that could be wrong.

I think Humanism will exist regardless of religion.  As it is a belief in the control of one's own destiny, i think that idea has existed since time began. It may not have had a title or designation, but there have always been those who view life as individual achievement, outside influence not needed.

________________________________________________

I could be wrong (and if I am I apologize DF) I don't think DF is talking about this small little forum. I believe he would be referring to things like this:

http://onemansblog.com/2011/08...-news-facebook-page/

or this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75b1FMzGTB8

And of course the image that I posted when I started this thread. What do you call that kind of violence other than hate? Why would you kill someone just because they think differently unless you hated them for it?

However, I will say I have been told by a few on this forum that I should leave my country if I don't agree with their religious beliefs. I have been told that I am a miserable person for not believing in their god. So yeah, there is hate here too.

how funny, pup you went to one humanist meeting and now you are one. LOL

Zaz,

I hope you saw the references DA submitted.  They're small examples of the hatred that religion spawns.

But there's another, more insidious, more devious sort of hatred we should discuss.  If I liked you (and I do) would I lie to you?  If I gave you credit for having a normally functioning brain and held you in regard and esteem, would I lie to you?

I would not.

But religions lie all the time.  Moreover, they're seldom content until and unless you become willing to perpetuate the lies yourself. 

Did you see the news yesterday that some 47% of Americans accept the Poof theory of Creation out of Genesis?  This, my friend, is a lie.  We simply know it is a lie.  Who tells such lies?  Preachers who depend on the ignorance and simplicity of their flocks, and simple-minded cowards who can't be bothered to learn the truth.  This sort of dangerous, selfish dishonesty is hatred toward all of humanity. 

Virgin births, son-of-god, dead people rising, walking on water, miracle healings (you may imagine Benny Hinn now.  If a manipulative, greedy, dangerous charlatan like him is what you'd call love, I'll take hatred), a Great Flood, and the Garden of Eden are only a few of the things that no thinking person without an agenda would never take as truth.  Yet, they do, or at least appear to.

The essential dishonesty of religion cannot be called love.  If not love, what is it?

Then, there is Hell.  Hell is a wicked, hateful, dishonest concept.

Why did the good Catholics and Lutherans of **** Germany kill millions of Jews?  Could it have anything to do with 1900 years of organized hatred, spewed from pulpits all over Germany and Austria?  Why do Muslims blow up everybody, including Muslims of other flavors?  Because they love us so?

Hatred is the currency of religion.  Think about it.  When you have a "we're right and everybody else is wrong" attitude, to what other end could it result?

I'm not religious.  I have no reason to hate you, nor lie to you.  But I do disagree with you.  Now, if you're one of the Enlightened religious, we can discuss anything academically, as friends.  If you're one who "knows" you're right, and my irreligious attitude threatens the basis by which you know the most important things about life, you could come to hate me for my impertinence.  It happens.  All the time. 

Ever read Sam Harris' book "Letter to a Christian Nation"?  I recommend it.  The first point he makes should be enough to make you suspicious of embracing any specific religion.  It's a point you've considered, and it goes like this:  There are tens of thousands of religions and denominations of religions in the world.  At most, only one of them can be right.  What is the likelihood that you've gotten that lucky?

Ever heard of the Westboro Baptist Church?  They consider themselves that lucky, and they hate every out-group imaginable, including yours.  They are not the exception, they are just the six-sigma inevitability of group-think.  By the way, they're right.  God Hates F ags.  Says so in the Bible.  And if god hates them, why shouldn't they?  Just another reason to take the Bible with a grain of salt.  And another example of religious hatred, although I admit it's an easy one.

I could go on, but there are enough windbags here without my joining that club.  What say you?

DF

watch out for the bait job zaz. deepfat has been gnawing on a segar reading ur posts and come to the same conclusion as myself. uhh dis boy zaz, he's ripe for deep to blow a little smoke ** *** *** and he wont know a thing.

Deep has just told you a long blue lie. wait a few days and he will tell another one.

Get ready for ARob to interpret what deep said. Best will squak too.

Oh and I forgot Deep, like Gengee says: God is not pleased with Wesbro but it don’t help your case.

Zaz,

Please refer to the post immediately above.  My case is thereby bolstered.

DF

Beware deep zaz, you are hereby warned. He is a gypsy.

DeepFat

cc: zaz 

Cicero in his arguments on Moral ends has this to say to Lucius Torquatus about Epicurus’ following of Democritus, which I shall quote below for you consideration. Before quoting Cicero I wanted you to know that this beautifully sums up an argument of mine against you and your attempt to portray yourself as the last word about God. I have no doubt many of the great philosophers, if they lived in present times would likewise accuse you.

‘Take next the second main area of philosophy, the study of inquiry and argument known as logic.

As far as I can gather, your master is quite defenseless and destitute here. He abolishes definition, and teaches nothing about division and classication. He hands down no system for conducting and concluding arguments; he gives no method for dealing with sophisms, or for disentangling ambiguities; he locates judgments about reality in the senses,  so that once the senses take something false to be true,  he considers that all means of judging truth and falsehood have been removed.”

I am not disputing there is hate in religion, it can be seen everyday in the news.  There are also the 'crazies' who use religion as a cover for their deeds. It is easy to manipulate people when you tell them you have a direct line to an omnipotent deity who can give them peaceful bliss for eternity or burn in sulfur and hellfire for eternity.

I am not trying to say religion does not have it's dark evil side. Every form of culture or social interaction does, which is what 'religion' really is. Even if we eliminate the deity in the equation, people will kill, maim, destroy and pillage because there are culturally accepted reasons to do so. Look at the political unrest in the world today.  Thousands killed over a political party or a government take over. Dictators killing there own citizens just to use fear to control the population. You have the religious zealots, the insane dictators, the political extremists, the drug wars, etc... it goes on and on wherever mankind exists.

Is religion the most harmful of the group? I'm not sure. Any criminal act associated with religion will makes the news faster than just two good ole boys shooting at each other. We hold people who claim to have a faith to a standard above the rest.  The Catholic priest molesting the alter boy is seen as more heinous than the policeman doing the same to the neighbor kid.
The good Baptist who won't go into the ABC store for fear of being seen  but gets drunk on Saturday and beats his wife is considered a lowlife scum worse than just a wife beater.  It seems when we add the religious  element, the rules change.

I have already said that I am agnostic in the strictest since.  I do not have enough evidence to decide if deities can exist or not. If we assume that a deity would be outside the realm of detection, then I could not rule out their existence.  However, by the same measure, I cannot state they do exist.

I can easily see the reason for being atheist and yet I can also understand why those raised with religion  would believe in their 'god'. As many have said on here, they began with a belief in a deity and then lost that belief after carefully examining the evidence. If they feel the evidence points to a deity being an impossibility, then that is what they must go with. When you consider that quantum physics has us existing in multiple realities, an omnipotent being doesn't seem so ridiculous. (Schrödinger's Cat).

It is a confusing state that the different denominations constantly try to prove that salvation is possible only with their 'brand' of rules and rituals. Since all the ones based on Christianity all use the same book, you would think they could find agreement. The only way to be sure of the beliefs of either side is to die but then you have no way of reporting back the findings..since you are either in some form of afterlife or got the blue screen of death.

I can look at the Bible as a religious item or a book of fairy tales. I can see the validity of both claims. If those on both sides of the discussion would acknowledge the right of the other sides belief (or lack thereof), mankind could move forward at a rapid pace. But it seems that both sides tend to judge the actions of the other and get lost in venomous retort.  As an outside observer, I honesty think both sides are making themselves and each other look like immature fools rather than mature, rational adults. The atheists are judging the Christians on morals and behavior despite railing against being judged themselves, and the Christians are judging the atheists and condemning them to Hell which according to their beliefs is only God's place to do.

_____________

Stay tuned......hate can be seen right here, everyday. 

Even if we eliminate the deity in the equation, people will kill, maim, destroy and pillage because there are culturally accepted reasons to do so.

Zaz, you give me reason to think.  Thanks.

I can't disagree with you.  Cultural, political, philosophical, regional, racial, and other motives give us mere humans reason to hate.  If I implied that religion is the only reason, I was wrong and I apologize.  Religion is, however, one strong reason for out-group hatred and it cannot be denied nor denigrated.

Eliminating religion from the algorithm is a big step in the right direction.  Who has nuclear weapons now, or who will have them soon, and is most likely to use them?  The pseudo-religious North Korea and the entirely religious Iran come to mind.

Enjoying the conversation.

DF