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Hi to all my Forum Friends,

In the discussion I began titled "Rapture, Second Coming? - What Are They And When Will They Occur?" -- a Christian Friend, Slice, asks me, "Bill, your (End Time) charts shows that (for) 1,000 years the Earth is like a garden of Eden and Jesus has returned.  During those 1,000 years where are the non-believers?  What about those who are here during those years who have loved ones that did not believe?  Won't they be missing their loved ones, or will they have a second chance?  Will there still be graves that they will see and hurt when they see them?"

Those are very insightful questions.  Let's break them down.  First, you ask, "Bill, your (End Time) charts shows that (for) 1,000 years the Earth is like a garden of Eden and Jesus has returned.  During those 1,000 years where are the non-believers?"

To answer this question, let's look at the world as it is today.

The CIA's World Factbook gives the world population as 7,021,836,029 (July 2012 est.) and the distribution of religions as Christian 31.59% (of which Roman Catholic 18.85%, Protestant 8.15%, Orthodox 4.96%, Anglican 1.26%), Muslim 23.2%, Hindu 15.0%, Buddhist 7.1%, Sikh 0.35%, Jewish 0.22%, Baha'i 0.11%, other religions 10.95%, non-religious 9.66%, atheists 2.01%. (2010 est.).[1]  (List Of Religious Populations, http://http://en.wikipedia.org...eligious_populations)


So, of the current world population, about 32% (about 2.1 billion) are Christian -- and about 68% (about 5 billion) are not Christian believers.  Jesus Christ tells us, in John 14:6, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

As harsh as it might sound, those approximately 5 billion in the world today who do not have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ -- will not be saved.  They can be saved.  They still have until they breathe their last breath to turn and follow Christ.  If they leave this mortal world without Him, they have condemned themselves to be eternally lost.  This is why evangelism and witnessing is so very important, especially among our own family and loved ones.

Is this harsh?  Or is it a perfect example of God's perfect love and His perfect Justice"

2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Romans 5:6, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."

Romans 5:8, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

 

God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to provide a path to eternal life for everyone, every single person He has ever created, or will ever create.  But, He also gave us "free will" which allows us to choose our own path:  the path to eternal life, or the path to eternal destruction.  Those who choose to follow Christ have chosen eternal life (1 John 5:12).  Those who choose not to follow Christ have chosen eternal destruction.

At the Rapture, all believers, those 2.1 billion, will be taken into heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), then very shortly after that, the Antichrist will emerge into world dominant power.  He will sign a Peace Accord with the nation Israel (Daniel 9:27).  That event will start the clock ticking for the 7 year Tribulation.

After the Rapture, and at the beginning of the Tribulation, there will be no believers left on earth.   However, at this time there will be two positive things occurring.  First, there will be many people, non-believers, left on earth who had been close enough to believers -- or may have actually been church members, or even pastors -- but, they had never really made the commitment to follow Christ.  Yet, they were close enough to real believers that they know enough about Scripture to recognize that the Rapture is what they have just witnessed.

This will open their eyes, show them that they have only been playing Christian, and will cause them to seek others like themselves and get serious about studying God's Word, to become saved, born again, believers.  These will be part of the Tribulation believers.  They will be believers -- but, because they waited too long, they will have to endure the Tribulation.

Second, we read in Revelation 7 about the 144,000 Jewish evangelists (I call them 144,000 Jewish Billy Grahams) who will be set aside by God.  There will be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.  God will set them aside and give them divine protection as they begin to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ all over the world.

Revelation 7:4, "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:"

 

Through the latent church members/friends who have become believers from the shock of seeing the Rapture happen and them being left behind, and the 144,000 Jewish evangelist -- a great number will become believers during the Tribulation.  Yet, with the secularist/atheist Antichrist in charge of the world -- many of those believers will be martyred.

We read about those martyred Tribulation saints, a large number who, by the time of Revelation 7, have already been slaughtered by the Antichrist's troops:

Revelation 7:9-10, "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands (Tribulation saints); and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' "

 

When the church was Raptured from earth, all Christian influence was taken out of the world -- and a totally secular/atheist form of government took control of the world.  Funny, so many Liberals today are screaming "separation of church and state" because they do not want Christian influence in our governments.  Well, when the Tribulation begins -- they will see their wish become reality.  And, the results will be catastrophic.

During the Tribulation, literally billions will become believers -- and a large percentage of those billions of believers will die, be martyred by the Antichrist.   In Revelation 7:9, when it tells us "a great multitude which no one could count" -- those are the believers who have been martyred.  Can you imagine a number so great that you have trouble counting it?  It will be in the billions.

By the end of the Tribulation, there will be many survivors, both believers who escaped the Antichrist's wrath, and non-believers.

Revelation 19 begins by telling us "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns" (verse 6).  In Revelation 17 and 18, God destroys the dual Babylon (religion and city).  In chapter 17, He destroys the "great harlot" which is the false Babylon religion.  In chapter 18, He destroys the corrupt city Babylon which hosted that false religion.

Many try to put this "Babylon religion" label on the Roman Catholic church; but, personally, I do not.  I see the "Babylon religion" as a One World Religion which will come into being along with the Antichrist and his False Prophet, who will be the leader of this worldwide One World Religion.

Yet, I can see the seeds of this One World Church being planted now through the "world ecumenism movement" where we see interfaith pluralism aimed at unity or cooperation among diverse religions, referring to a worldwide "religious unity" by the advocacy of a greater sense of shared spirituality among Christianity and world religons.

In recent years, we have seen a Muslim Imam in Denver become a member and teacher in a Christian church -- even though he himself was still a Muslim.  We see Eastern mysticism and world religion rituals and practices being brought into supposedly Christian fellowship under the banner of "the emerging church."  All of these, in my view, are stepping stones to the One World Church of the Tribulation.  And, in Revelation 17 and 18, God has destroyed this false dual Babylon. 

With the Tribulation winding down, God is once again in the process of taking full control of earth.  Revelation 19:7-9 tell of Christ taking His Bride, the church, at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.

And, starting in Revelation 19:11 we see Jesus Christ Coming In Glory, His Second Coming.  And returning with Him will be His Bride - the church, all the Old Testament saints and martyred Tribulation saints, and His host of angels.  That will be one impressive army.

In Revelation 19:11-21 we will see His Second Coming, the Battle of Armageddon, the Antichrist and His False Prophet (the One World Religion leader) thrown into the lake of fire, and Satan cast into the abyss where he will stay for 1000 years.

After Christ has taken care of those minor problems, He will then sit in judgment of the survivors of the Tribulation.  This is called the Sheep (believers) and Goat (non-believers) Judgment found in Matthew 25:31-46.  The Goats, i.e., the people who saw the power of God during the Tribulation but still would not believe, yet they survive the Tribulation wraths.  They will be cast into eternal punishment, i.e, into the lake of fire.

This answers your question, "During those 1,000 years where are the non-believers?"  They are the Goats.

The Sheep, those Tribulation believers who survive the horrible Tribulation will go into the Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies.  Once Jesus Christ has dispatched Satan, the Antichrist, the False Prophet, their armies, and the non-believing Tribulation survivors -- He will establish the perfect world theocracy, which He will rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem.  The surviving Tribulation believers will enter His Millennial Kingdom, His Millennial Reign, in their mortal bodies.

Mortals that enter the millennium will be able to marry and have children, who will then multiply at a rapid rate since such people will be capable of a thousand-year lifespan, there will be no poverty, very few people will die during this time, and there will clearly be a population explosion likely into the billions [Isaiah 65:17–25].  (Populating The Millennium, Dr. Thomas Ice, http://www.pre-trib.org/articl...ating-the-millennium).

 

The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will be populated by those surviving mortal believers -- and by the Bride of Christ (the church), the Old Testament saints, and the martyred Tribulation saints.  The mortals will be believers, but because they are still in their mortal bodies they still have their inherited sin nature.  Yet, with Satan locked in the abyss, there is no temptation to lure them into sinful lifestyles.

These mortals will be marrying and having children.  During the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom, there will be billions of children born.  We are told in Isaiah 65:17-25 that no longer will infants die, and a person who is 100 years old is still considered a youth.

All the mortals who entered the Millennial Kingdom will be believers who have received Christ as Lord and Savior.  But, all those born during the Millennial period will still need to receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.  John 14:6 still apples to them, i.e, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

So, those born during the Millennial must still confess Christ as Lord and Savior.  Many will, many will not -- even though they see Jesus Christ face-to-face.  Why?  I cannot say; maybe they just keep procrastinating.  I don't believe there will be any atheists or agnostics then, just people who want to do their own thing.  They will know that God is real; but, because of their inherited sin nature (even with the Great Deceiver locked in the abyss and not able to tempt them), I suppose many will still be rebellious or just non-committal.

This raises two questions:

1.  Why does God release Satan from the abyss after the 1000 years (Revelation 20:7)?

2.  And, when Satan gathers his army of billions, "the number of them is like the sand of the seas****" (Revelation 20:8) -- where does he find this massive army?

Well, as we have seen, there will be billions of mortals born during the 1000 year Millennial -- and many of those do not commit to following Christ.  So, when Satan is released, he will find these rebellious, non-committal people easy targets for his false teachings.  These passages in 2 Peter and 2 Timothy are applicable today -- and will be applicable during the Millennial:

2 Peter 2:1, "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."

2 Timothy 4:3-4, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."

 

So, from those billions of rebellious and non-committal Millennial mortals, Satan's recruiting office will be very busy building his final army.

Revelation 20:7-10 tells us that Satan's massive army, gathered from the non-committal mortals of the Millennial, will come against Jesus Christ, the saints, and the beloved city of Jerusalem.  And, in this final battle of world history (similar to Ezekiel 38, 39, God and Magog -- and Armageddon, Revelation 19:11-21), Satan's army will be totally destroyed by supernatural fire from heaven.  And Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire to join his Antichrist and False Prophet.

Next, my Friend, you ask, "What about those who are here during those years (the Millennial Reign) who have loved ones that did not believe?  Won't they be missing their loved ones, or will they have a second chance?   Will there still be graves that they will see and hurt when they see them?"

When we enter the Millennial Kingdom, those who would not believe, before the Rapture and during the Tribulation -- are in Hades/Torment (Luke 16:19-31) waiting to be resurrected into their immortal bodies at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.  They must stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment, a judgment of punishment.  Those who survived the Tribulation and still were not believing in Christ were judged in the Sheep and Goat Judgment and have been sent to their eternal fate.

Is there a second chance after death?  No.  Each person must individually choose what he/she will do with Jesus Christ.  We are told in 1 John 5:12, "He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."

Basically, that is the only gating factor:  If a person chooses to have the Son in his/her heart, that person HAS eternal life in the presence of God.  If that person chooses to not have the Son in his/her heart, that person HAS chosen an eternal fate outside the presence of God.   Heaven or hell, everyone must choose for himself/herself.

You ask, "Will there still be graves that they will see and hurt when they see them?"

During the 1000 years of the Millennial Kingdom, possibly there will be graves.  But, most will live long and productive lives during that period.

During the Millennial, will we remember our family and loved ones who are not there?  I am sure that we, both mortal and immortal will remember, for I don't believe God will take away our memories.  But, I believe we will be so happy and so full of joy just being in the presence of our Lord and Savior; that we will not have time for mourning.

The following Scripture passage describes the eternal state which will follow His Millennial Reign, and I see no reason to not expect this level of divine love during the Millennial:


Revelation 21:1-5, "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.  And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.  And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, 'Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.'   And He who sits on the throne said, 'Behold, I am making all things new.'  And He said, 'Write, for these words are faithful and true.' "

 

In Isaiah 65:17-19, Isaiah is prophesying of the eternal time, i.e., the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem (see Revelation 21).  But, in verses 20-21, he switches and begins speaking of the Millennial time period when there may be death, but not like we see today in our world:

Isaiah 65:20-21, "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.  They will build houses and inhabit them; They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit."

 

My Friend, I realize I have taken the long route in answering your questions; but, it is my belief that Christian believers will have a better sense of our own "eternal security" in Christ if we understand these events which WILL take place in the End Times.  Our "eternal salvation" does not depend upon how we view End Time eschatology; but, our "eternal security" in this mortal life depends very much upon what we know of the coming future.

And, understanding these things should give an urgency to all of us, causing us to witness more fervently to those family and friends whom we love.  Matter of fact, it should cause us to witness more diligently to our Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors, all our FRANs.  "Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, TEACH them. . . be My witnesses in ALL the world" (Matthew
28:19-20, Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15).  Are you ready to GO?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

 

1 Peter 3-15 - Walk In The Park

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quote:  Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

I think it would be only fair if billie was committed to monetary compensation  to Tnvalleytalks for the use of this forum to feed his FB rag.  His crimes against privacy of forum members in the production of a fictional and unholy abridged bible deception should be stopped.  This should come to a vote.

Hi Vic,

 

As usual, since you cannot, without 100% copy/paste, come up with anything intelligent to write -- you offer us this inane drivel.

 

Please show me where I have invaded or abused the privacy of anyone on the Forum.  And, that includes the use of phony posting names. 

 

Yes, many of my articles are posted on the Religion Forum, my Facebook Notes, and in my Friends Ministry eNewsletter simultaneously.   However, just as many originate on Facebook and in my Friends Ministry eNewsletter -- as originate on the Religion Forum.  If I find a subject of Facebook, or a Friend writes me an e-mail with an interesting question -- I will write a response, then post it on all three venues.

 

But, in those that originate on the Religion Forum I always remove all names -- real or pseudonym (that means phony name, just for your understanding) -- before posting them on the other two venues.

 

True, a few years ago I posted some on the other venues which contained the pseudonyms of Forum Friends.  But, I did this realizing that NO ONE, not even Forum members, knows the real identity of those people.  Yet, because some in the cabal, who could find nothing else to complain about -- started wailing that I was abusing their phony posting names -- I started removing all Forum Phony Names.  Since that time, to accommodate all my Cabal Friends -- I remove all names, phony or otherwise.

 

So, what's your problem?  Other than the fact that I disagree with your Roman Catholicism?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Better Friends - Daffy Duck

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quote:  Originally Posted by Contendah:

They are here on earth along with the believers, since the 1000-year reign is a symbolic term and does not foretell an earthly reign with Christ on the throne in Jerusalem as the Darbyite-Scofieldian fantasists would have us believe.

Hi Contendah,

 

Do you agree that this Scripture verse is speaking of the Christ child:

 

Isaiah 9:6, "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

 

If so, then it follows that this Scripture verse also speaks of Jesus Christ:


Isaiah 9:7, "There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this."

The first Scripture verse speaking of His birth and who He is -- the Son of God, Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

 

The second verse speaks of His Millennial Reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem, the perfect theocracy -- for 1000 years.

 

Now, what makes you think this is only symbolic in Revelation and why it would not last the full 1000 years which Revelation 20 declares for His reign and for Satan's time in the abyss?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:  Originally Posted by Contendah:

They are here on earth along with the believers, since the 1000-year reign is a symbolic term and does not foretell an earthly reign with Christ on the throne in Jerusalem as the Darbyite-Scofieldian fantasists would have us believe.

Hi Contendah,

 

Do you agree that this Scripture verse is speaking of the Christ child:

 

Isaiah 9:6, "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

 

If so, then it follows that this Scripture verse also speaks of Jesus Christ:


Isaiah 9:7, "There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this."

The first Scripture verse speaking of His birth and who He is -- the Son of God, Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

 

The second verse speaks of His Millennial Reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem, the perfect theocracy -- for 1000 years.

 

Now, what makes you think this is only symbolic in Revelation and why it would not last the full 1000 years which Revelation 20 declares for His reign and for Satan's time in the abyss?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH

****

Well, Bill,  that reign that you anticipate to last a literal 1000 years can not be (as you claim) the reign discussed in the second verse you cite (Isaiah 9:7), since that verse describes not a 1000-year reign, but a reign for which "[t]here will be no end" and which will be upheld "...with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore."

 

A millennial (1000-year) reign can not be the same as a reign that will have "no end" and will last "forevermore".  I do not dispute that the reign of Christ will last forever, but my Bible tells me that Christ is already on His throne.  He is already King over a kingdom that will have "no end" and that will last "forevermore". He does not need to wait for some "rapture" or "tribulation" or "battle of Armageddon" or any of the other fictions in the premillennialist  fairy tale system in order to become a term-limited King  with a reign of only a literal 1000 years.

 

 

  

Hi Contendah,

 

My Friend, you are grasping at straws!   Isaiah 9:7 tells of His Millennial Reign on earth -- which flows into His eternal reign.  The 1000 year Millennial Reign does not stop the flow of His eternal kingship; it only begins it on the earth cleansed of Satan and his demonic followers -- and flows into the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem.  He goes from the cleansed Jerusalem on this earth -- into the New Jerusalem; always as Lord and King.  His reign definitely IS never ending.

 

So simple -- even a cave man could understand it!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Eternity_Key

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Contendah,

 

My Friend, you are grasping at straws!   Isaiah 9:7 tells of His Millennial Reign on earth -- which flows into His eternal reign.  The 1000 year Millennial Reign does not stop the flow of His eternal kingship; it only begins it on the earth cleansed of Satan and his demonic followers -- and flows into the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem.  He goes from the cleansed Jerusalem on this earth -- into the New Jerusalem; always as Lord and King.  His reign definitely IS never ending.

 

So simple -- even a cave man could understand it!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Eternity_Key

*********************************************

His alleged "millennial reign" could not be the beginning of his eternal reign, Bill, since that alleged "millennial reign" has not yet started (and never will) and yet Christ reigns over His kingdom today.

 

The kingdom of God arrived over 2000 years ago:

Mark 9:1  

And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”

Hi VP,

 

That is true!  However, the Bible tells us that He will come again, His Second Coming, when the Suffering Lamb will return as the Roaring Lion of Judah.  He will come again, after the Rapture and the seven year Tribulation -- to establish His 1000 year Millennial Reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem (Isaiah 9:7).  This will be the perfect theocracy and He will be the Supreme Commander of the world.

 

When He returns -- His Bride, the Raptured church, body of New Testament believers (Revelation 19:6-9), will return with Him.  Also coming back with Him will be all the Old Testament saints and the martyred Tribulation saints.  We will all be in our new glorified, immortal bodies and will join with the mortal believers who survived the Tribulation to share His Millennial Kingdom with Him.

 

After His 1000 year Millennial Kingdom on earth -- the non-believers will be resurrected from Hades/Torment (Luke 16:23) into their immortal, eternal bodies.  They will stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment, a judgment of punishment -- and then will be thrown into the lake of fire, hell (Revelation 20:11-15).

 

Then, we believers who shared His Millennial Kingdom will be taken into eternity -- where we will live eternally, in His presence on the New Earth, which was created at the same time as the New Heaven and when the New Jerusalem descended from heaven.  You can read about this in Revelation 21. 

 

The New Earth will be our new heavenly home -- where we shall dwell eternally in joy and happiness, as we share the presence of our Lord with all our believing loved ones who may have gone before us, or may have been Raptured with us.   Can anyone imagine a more wonderful way to end this life -- and begin the next?   Praise God for his grace, mercy, love, and justice! 

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Heavenly-Greeting_RISEN

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