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Earlier this evening, as I was idly surfing the Internet, I came across the site GotQuestions.org, a fundamentalist Christian website that purports to provide “Bible-based” answers to questions about Christianity, God, and Jesus, etc.

Okay then, I thought, let’s see how well they answer one of the biggies:

“Who created God? Where did God come from?”

Well, it’s really no surprise that their attempt to answer this question turns out to be pretty lame. Read on to see why.

 

A common argument from atheists and skeptics is that if all things need a cause, then God must also need a cause. The conclusion is that if God needed a cause, then God is not God (and if God is not God, then of course there is no God).

Yes, it is a common argument, because it is a good one. There is no particular reason why God should be automagically exempted from this inquiry, no matter what believers say.

This is a slightly more sophisticated form of the basic question “Who made God?” Everyone knows that something does not come from nothing. So, if God is a “something,” then He must have a cause, right?

Well, it’s a reframing of the same question, but it’s not really any more sophisticated. A more sophisticated form of the basic question is: assuming for the moment that there is a “first cause,” why does it have to be an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent supernatural being that demands to be worshiped? I go into this question in more detail later.

The question is tricky because it sneaks in the false assumption that God came from somewhere and then asks where that might be.

I believe the word “tricky” means “sly” here and not “difficult,” implying that there is some subterfuge involved in just asking the question as if it is posed deliberately to catch out unwary believers. Perhaps in some cases that’s true, but it in no way devalues the provalidity of the question.

The answer is that the question does not even make sense.

Ah, and here we go. A term that is often used here is “category mistake.” In other words, you are wrong to even ask the question.

It is like asking, “What does blue smell like?” Blue is not in the category of things that have a smell, so the question itself is flawed.

Well actually, some people are actually able to “smell blue”—people who suffer from a neurological condition called synesthesia. (Not particularly relevant to this discussion, but fascinating nonetheless!)

In the same way, God is not in the category of things that are created or caused. God is uncaused and uncreated—He simply exists.

Er, okay. That is a rather bald assertion. Let’s see how they back it up.

How do we know this? We know that from nothing, nothing comes.

Whoa, there. Not so fast. That nothing comes from nothing may be true in the macroscopic world—the world we have first hand experience of every day—but in the quantum world that is certainly not the case. All kinds of weird and entirely counter-intuitive things are known—proven—to happen, including the measurable existence of virtual particles—particles that really do come from nothing and exist in our Universe for a short while before vanishing again. Thus God is not the only possible non-caused entity in existence.

So, if there were ever a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence.

Well, since time is an inherent property of the Universe, there was no specific time when there was absolutely nothing, since time came into existence at exactly the same time the rest of the Universe was born—at the moment of the Big Bang. Thus it is just as much a category mistake to ask what happened before the Big Bang, since there was no “before” before the Big Bang. Mind bending I know, but it all boils down to the simple fact that, as of today, we haven’t a clue how or why the Universe sprang into existence—not scientists and certainly not theologians. We can speculate endlessly, but none of us knows for sure—not even close.

But things do exist. Therefore, since there could never have been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence.

Maybe, but we have no way of knowing if it’s true, even though it sounds logical. And if time itself has only been around since the Big Bang, then any statement that references a time before the Universe is rendered meaningless anyway—and another category mistake.

That ever-existing thing is what we call God. God is the uncaused Being that caused everything else to come into existence. God is the uncreated Creator who created the universe and everything in it.

And so we finish with a giant leap of faith, and one more bald assertion—that God is the uncreated creator of the Universe.

But here’s another problem. Why does it have to be God? Of all the things that could be eternal—uncaused and beyond time—a single omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being would seem to be one of the most unlikely culprits, especially one that demands to be worshiped for creating the Universe. Christian fundamentalists scoff when scientists speculate about a multiverse, or an infinite number of universes, or some other naturalistic theory of cosmological origins, but at least the scientists will freely admit that it’s just speculation and that we don’t really have a clue about how or why the Universe sprang into existence.

Even the argument that a complex Universe requires an even more complex creator (which must be the God of the Bible), doesn’t hold water. Even if intelligence was involved in the origin of the Universe, there is no reason to believe the creator is a being worthy of our worship and devotion. What if our Universe was the result of a hyper-dimensional being’s fifth-grade science project? Or perhaps even a unwanted side-effect of said project? Perhaps the creator of our Universe isn’t an eternal being. Perhaps our Universe’s creator was also created ex nihilo by another, even more superintelligent creator, and so on ad infinitum.

So, to bring this post to a conclusion before my brain explodes, I think it’s pretty clear that the any assertion that God, if God exists, must be eternal and an uncaused being is based on nothing more than flimsy and flawed logic. Contrary to the above assertions, we don’t even know that the Universe needed a creator, but even if we accept that it did, there is no justifiable reason to claim that the creator is either eternal or an uncaused being. That is just one of any number of scenarios bounded only by our imagination since we have no clue as to what exists beyond our Universe, or even if there is anything at all.

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http://rationaldreaming.com/20...e-did-god-come-from/

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That question has been asked by atheists and answered so MANY times -- that it falls into the category of the little girl who keeps asking mommy, "But, mommy, WHY?"

 

 

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Good for that little girl, boy, adult. No one should ever accept the answer "cause I said so" when it makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

That question has been asked by atheists and answered so MANY times -- that it falls into the category of the little girl who keeps asking mommy, "But, mommy, WHY?"   Duh!

And in response, the ill-prepared parent keeps saying, "Because I said so!"

 

A response is NOT the same as an answer. Theists don't often have solid answers so they're limited in actually answering much of anything.

I’ve heard the Bible referred to as being written by a ‘bunch of sheep herders’ as to imply that it should be considered insignificant.

My observation is that there are many statements in the Bible that says different;

One being “without form and void”.  I don’t think sheep herders, at that time would have used those terms given the deep meaning that we barely can understand today with our knowledge of science.

Strange at least.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Baby-BellyButton

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Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

Bill, I just noticed the picture you posted in reply to Jenn.

And you had the nerve to imply Wooley was a Pedophile because he had a picture of a baby in a diaper dancing???? Sheeish!!!!

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What's wrong, Bill? Don't have an answer for me?

Atheists and Christians alike: The universe practically SCREAMS of the existence of God! Anyone who has studied quantum physics knows how spooky that stuff is.  Light alters its behavior just from the act of observing it? This is a preposterous statement but it is something you can prove to yourself doing a "double slit" experiment right on your kitchen table.  The "spin" of a subatomic particle determines the nature of the atom as a whole?  Really? That's silly.  Enough energy to power the planet for generations can come from a ball of matter the size of a softball?  That is insane!  The entire mass of a sun millions of time s bigger than our own can simply vanish into thin space leaving nothing but its gravity in its wake?  Are you completely insane?  Everything single object in the sky what we see, all the stars, galaxies, planets, dust are only 5% of the matter of the universe. The rest being dark matter/energy?  All this came from the exact reverse of what a black hole is.  That is simply unbelievable. Yet there you go. All this is real. It happens; The science tells us so.  But our faith answers the questions that science cannot. God's signature is written in the laws of the universe that preexisted when time began.  Again, a crazy notion but no more crazy than the "real" science pf physics.  I don't know about you but my faith support the science and science supports my faith.

So Frankly, are you saying because it is all so amazing then it must be supernatural? Have you ever considered that maybe there are real scientific answers to all those things and no God is needed? If we don't have the answers to everything right now, today, doesn't mean we will not in the future. Are you content in just believing it all came from a supernatural being without any scientific evidence to support that theory? If so then your science is not supported at all.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

So Frankly, are you saying because it is all so amazing then it must be supernatural? Have you ever considered that maybe there are real scientific answers to all those things and no God is needed? If we don't have the answers to everything right now, today, doesn't mean we will not in the future. Are you content in just believing it all came from a supernatural being without any scientific evidence to support that theory? If so then your science is not supported at all.

 

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Well, no. Not because it is so amazing but that physics literally screams of "supernatural."  the word "spooky" is used quite liberally by the most advanced physicists.  I am waiting for a rational explanation of why the behavior of light itself changes simply by observing the light.  I'm waiting for a rational explanation of the 1st Cause.  The universe had a beginning, that is certain. "Something" caused that.  That "something" meets every definition of "supernatural" that I can find.

There was a CREATOR!  And not just any creator, but God Himself. The one from the bible.  This is certain not only because the bible says so but because the bible is quite accurate in its description of the creation. Couple that with the number of prophecies that came true then only one conclusion can be made: That God exists and your soul is in mortal danger unless you choose to believe. 

I believe the answer to the question stated in the title of the thread is that God exists outside time; he is not confined by it like us.  The question is a valid one.  God doesn't mind questions.  Lord knows the writers of scripture weren't shy about asking them.   Oddly enough, even though I cannot fully wrap my mind around God having no beginning, him having no beginning or ending makes everything else make more sense...because there was a 'hand' to set things in motion.

 God having no beginning, him having no beginning or ending makes everything else make more sense..

 

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And see, that is one of many things that doesn't make any sense at all to me. No beginning, no ending, always here etc.

Originally Posted by Frankly:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

So Frankly, are you saying because it is all so amazing then it must be supernatural? Have you ever considered that maybe there are real scientific answers to all those things and no God is needed? If we don't have the answers to everything right now, today, doesn't mean we will not in the future. Are you content in just believing it all came from a supernatural being without any scientific evidence to support that theory? If so then your science is not supported at all.

 

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Well, no. Not because it is so amazing but that physics literally screams of "supernatural."  the word "spooky" is used quite liberally by the most advanced physicists.  I am waiting for a rational explanation of why the behavior of light itself changes simply by observing the light.  I'm waiting for a rational explanation of the 1st Cause.  The universe had a beginning, that is certain. "Something" caused that.  That "something" meets every definition of "supernatural" that I can find.

 

I too am waiting on a rational scientific explanation. However, I have no evidence to convince me that answer is a God. I will continue to wait until someone smarter than me comes up with an explanation that can be tested and has followed the scientific method. I will agree with you that  quantum physics is amazing and strange. I assume you are referring to the "Double Slit Experiment" when you are talking about light changing by observing it.  Do you believe that we create our own reality? Do you believe that just by observing something it becomes real? I would think that would pretty much null and void a God right there.

 

I also agree that the universe had a beginning, but what caused it is still unknown. I would think that there would have to be many causes really. Or no cause at all. We have absolutely no proof that there was a cause. If there was a 1st cause then that would have to apply to a creator also wouldn't it? So what caused God? I would say that if there was a 1st cause then that would lead to the question of who/what caused God and so on and so on....


There was a CREATOR!  And not just any creator, but God Himself. The one from the bible.  This is certain not only because the bible says so but because the bible is quite accurate in its description of the creation. Couple that with the number of prophecies that came true then only one conclusion can be made: That God exists and your soul is in mortal danger unless you choose to believe. 

 

You say that your faith supports science and science supports your faith and then you say something completely illogical like this statement in bold. Have you actually read Genesis? Lets just take this one verse here.

Genesis 1:31: And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
We know that planets, stars, galaxies have been born through out the history of the uninverse. They are being observed right now as they are born. So God did not create everything in 6 days. If the bible is to be believed then nothing new has been "made". Yet we know that not be true. As I said that is just one example and not even the most glaring example of how the bible is not accurate at all in a description of how this universe began or continues to evolve.
Please give me an example of prophecies from the bible that have come true. I am anxiously awaiting.
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Please give me an example of prophecies from the bible that have come true. I am anxiously awaiting.

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 Don’t hold your breath for proof, you won’t get it. Prophecies are found in the Bible, & generally, are definitive statements made by select people based upon information God had supposedly given them directly.

 

When ask, a Christian will usually say that the greatest, most frequent, and most fulfilled prophecy is the one that concerns the life & death of Jesus.

 

Christians can’t prove what the Bible says, they can only say they believe it because the Bible says it. If you don't believe in the Bible, or if you have your doubts, as I do, their answers won't satisfy you.

 

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Everything has to have a cause.........
Except for God.
If you can believe this, then you are not a rational person, and it is pointless to argue with you.

If that's in response to me, that is not what I said.  I have no idea what all exists outside of our concept of time and space.  I am glad your mind is settled on the matter, but much greater minds that your own have struggled with this puzzle for a long time.

 

How did X begin and if we know how X began, how did what came before X begin...if everything has a beginning, what was the first thing that existed & how did it occur if there was nothing before it?

The coolest study I've ever gone through on prophecies was the study of Daniel by Beth Moore.  I thought the whole statue thing with each part representing a different group who would come into power was cool.  If I am remembering correctly, there was at least one instance down to the name of the man in power years before he was born.  Part of that prophecy may contain end times prophecy (if you interpret it that way - I do), obviously yet to be fulfilled & coincides with revelation given to John.

 

It might not be as cool to someone who does not see scripture as truth, but for me, it was.

It was a newsworthy item to the universe when God's people claimed the He had actually created it about 14 billion years too late. BTW, for perspective, God created the universe about a THOUSAND years after the Sumerians (in southern Mesopotamia) had invented glue.

 

 

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Shhhhhhhhhhhhh, you're not supposed to point out the flaws in their belief.

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

There have been many prophecies that have come true.  The problem is that they were all fulfilled in the NT.  Nothing since it has been written.

The main problem with Bible prophecies is that they were fulfilled before they were written. It is amazingly easy to predict something after it has already happened. This is similar to the problem with Nostradamus. His vague predictions were all interpreted to have come true after they had already happened. No one has ever read the writing of Nostradamus and known what was going to happen before it actually happened. The same is true for the Bible.

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

There have been many prophecies that have come true.  The problem is that they were all fulfilled in the NT.  Nothing since it has been written.

The main problem with Bible prophecies is that they were fulfilled before they were written. It is amazingly easy to predict something after it has already happened. This is similar to the problem with Nostradamus. His vague predictions were all interpreted to have come true after they had already happened. No one has ever read the writing of Nostradamus and known what was going to happen before it actually happened. The same is true for the Bible.

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Jimi........You couldn't be more wrong about Nostradamus or the Bible.

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