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Ashcroft
spent the rest of the Vietnam War in Missouri, safe and
sound. And quiet: Although Ashcroft was clearly eager to
avoid going to Vietnam, he never protested the war.

Lest see the score board here:

Repubiclans:

Rush Limbough= Donged the draft in Vietnam for "medical reasons"

Goerge W. Bush=got out of military servcie by using his dad's political
connections to get a straight line to a Nation Guard position (ahead of the
other 5,000 slobs who were waiting in line) and a DIRECT COMMISSION as a
fighter pilot! In the REAL WORLD the only people who get direct non-field
commissions are

Doctors, Lawyers, R.N.'s, Dentists, Pharmacists, etc. Not fighter pilots!

Cheney= Dodged the draft in Vietnam. As his confermation hearing to Sec. of
Defense he said he had better thing to do!

Reagan= Dodged the draft in WW II. Despite that many people OLDER and with
serious medical conditios were either drafted or volunteerd adn saw action.



Kemp= got a free educatioin at West Point, made it 4 years there and played
footbal for them. But just as he was to graduate and get commissioned, he
developed a rare medical condition that made him too sick to be in the Army,
but healthy enough to play in the NFL!

Democrates:

Truman= WWI vet

Rooservelt= was only member of his family not to serve due to his polio.

Kennedy= War Hero (P.T. 109)

Johnson= served as a Military Intelligence Officer in the NAVY in the Pacific

Carter= Annopolis Graduate, served 8 Years in teh Navy. Was hand picked out of
the Academy my Rictover (sp?) to help develop the nuclear navy.

Bill Clinton= Dodged the draft.

Were that the score: Serve your country= evil commie

Dodge the draft= greatest defenders of freedom in the Universe!


Where is Rummy? he did not serve also!





Who Served:

http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

Prominent Democrats

House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt - Served his country in uniform, 1965-71

House Minority Whip David Bonior - Served his country in uniform, 1968-72

Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle - Served his country in uniform, 1969-72

Vice President Al Gore - Served his country in uniform, 1969-71; recipient of
Vietnam Service Medal

Bob Kerrey... Democrat... Congressional Medal of Honor, VN

Daniel Inouye... Democrat... Congressional Medal of Honor, WW II

John Kerry... Democrat...Silver Star& Bronze Star, VN

Charles Rangel...Democrat... Bronze Star, Korea

Max Cleland... Democrat... Silver Star & Bronze Star, VN

Howell Heflin... Democrat... Silver Star

Rep. Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying
Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal.
http://www.afji.com/mags/1997/Jan/VietVets.html

Ambassador "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Democratic congressman,
Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star
and the Legion of Merit http://www.af.mil/news/Apr1997/n19970414_970430.html

Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: served in combat with the U.S. Army as a staff
sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade; was wounded and
received a Purple Heart. http://www.house.gov/mthompson/bio.html

Prominent Republicans

Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.

Majority Leader Dick Armey- avoided the draft, did not serve.

Majority Whip Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve.

Senate Majority Minority Leader Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.

GW bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years

VP Cheney - several deferments, the last by marriage (in his own words, "had
other priorities than military service")

Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - sought deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri
State

Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve

"B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting
classes (Orange County Register article)

Senator John McCain - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze
Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Why did
the Bush campaign smear him so?

Former Senator Bob Dole - an honorable man. http://www.bobdole.org/bio/wwII.html

Chuck Hagel - two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam.
http://www.senate.gov/~hagel/Information/bio.htm

Duke Cunningham - nominated for the Medal of Honor, received the Navy Cross,
two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart, and several other
decorations http://www.house.gov/cunningham/about_duke.htm#Biography

Re military personnel and public perception of Democrats v. Republicans in
general.

How often must Democrats defend their party against the typical freeper blather
of draft-dodging, service-evading, unpatriotic quakers among us? More often than
we have to.

Gore was right all along. About some things. The "truth" IS on our side.

Or, as www.rackjite.com puts it,

THE CHICKENHAWKS Conservatives make great fun of President Clinton for
questioning the Vietnam War, standing up to his beliefs and questioning his own
participation in that war as well, i.e., being honest and walking the walk of
his own belief system at least for a time. On the other hand there were
literally millions of dishonest hypocritical, cowardly right-wing loonies who
supported the war while refusing to personally participate. Here are just a few:

Elliott Abrams - Sought deferment for bad back.
Richard Armey - Sought college deferment, too smart to die.
Bill Bennett - Sought graduate school deferment, too smart to die.
Pat Buchanan - Sought deferment for bad knee.
George W. Bush - Daddy got him in the reserves.
Dick Cheney - Sought graduate school deferment, too smart to die.
Tom DeLay - - Sought college deferment, too smart to die.
Newt Gingrich - Sought graduate school deferment, too smart to die.
Phil Gramm - Sought marriage deferment, too loved to die.
Jack Kemp - Sought medical deferment while in the NFL.
Rush Limbaugh - Sought deferment for ingrown hair follicle on his ass.
Trent Lott - Sought deferment, didn't want to muss his hair.
Dan Quayle - Family got him into the Reserves.
Pat Robertson - Father pulled him out of Korea as soon as the shooting began.
Kenneth Starr ^ Sought deferment for psoriasis.
John Wayne - Sought deferment to further acting career.
Vin Weber - Sought deferment for asthma.
George Will - Sought deferment, too much of a wussy.
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

quote:
Originally posted by Quarrles:
Speaking as an authority on wussies Mr. PBA?


Oh, do you disagree with my post? Can you top it? can you debate this post? I did'nt think so! You can come with nonsense that don't relate to a topic! why don't you do a post on cookies,how to bake a cake, cars, you know, that you know something about.
Ronald Reagan dodged the draft, because he was already a National Guard Officer. He was activated, but denied overseas duty because of his eyes.

He served with an Army motion picture unit. Was a captain for most of the war, as he turned down promotion to major, because he didn't think he deserved it. But, was eventually promoted to major.

Strictly speaking, I dodged the draft, too. I enlisted! Speaking of wussies.
quote:
Originally posted by interventor:
Ronald Reagan dodged the draft, because he was already a National Guard Officer. He was activated, but denied overseas duty because of his eyes.

He served with an Army motion picture unit. Was a captain for most of the war, as he turned down promotion to major, because he didn't think he deserved it. But, was eventually promoted to major.

Strictly speaking, I dodged the draft, too. I enlisted! Speaking of wussies.




The efforts of the left led to a very dark era for America, even if a short one. America was embarrassed over Viet Nam, especially as word of the millions of innocent Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians met their fate in the slaughter that followed the Communist takeover. Carter allowed that era to fester as we were referred to as a “Paper Tiger” by foes and our inflation rate reached double digit status. As it turned out, even little pisant nations like Iran lost any fear or respect they may have held for America and attacked our embassy there.

Under Reagan, we started supporting our allies in their stand against Communism, a memorial was erected to Viet Nam Veterans and many who actually dodged the draft all of a sudden became seasoned war heroes, complete with medals, falsified papers and of course, the best war stories one could imagine. Some even managed to falsely obtain benefits available to veterans only. Of course, the aura of the deranged Viet Nam Veteran that was prevalent during the 1970s gave way to the poor victimized Viet Nam Veteran who was still liable to “go off” at any time and cause great harm to others.
quote:
Originally posted by pba:
quote:
Originally posted by interventor:
Ronald Reagan dodged the draft, because he was already a National Guard Officer. He was activated, but denied overseas duty because of his eyes.

He served with an Army motion picture unit. Was a captain for most of the war, as he turned down promotion to major, because he didn't think he deserved it. But, was eventually promoted to major.

Strictly speaking, I dodged the draft, too. I enlisted! Speaking of wussies.




The efforts of the left led to a very dark era for America, even if a short one. America was embarrassed over Viet Nam, especially as word of the millions of innocent Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians met their fate in the slaughter that followed the Communist takeover. Carter allowed that era to fester as we were referred to as a “Paper Tiger” by foes and our inflation rate reached double digit status. As it turned out, even little pisant nations like Iran lost any fear or respect they may have held for America and attacked our embassy there.

Under Reagan, we started supporting our allies in their stand against Communism, a memorial was erected to Viet Nam Veterans and many who actually dodged the draft all of a sudden became seasoned war heroes, complete with medals, falsified papers and of course, the best war stories one could imagine. Some even managed to falsely obtain benefits available to veterans only. Of course, the aura of the deranged Viet Nam Veteran that was prevalent during the 1970s gave way to the poor victimized Viet Nam Veteran who was still liable to “go off” at any time and cause great harm to others.



Thanks, Lew Walters : http://rightinaleftworld.blogspot.com/2007/01/choose-wisely-america.html
Oh, my. Plagiarism... Not only is it rude to not give other people credit for their own words, but it's also against the law. More importantly (imho), it's intellectually dishonest.

PBA, what's your problem? I don't have a problem with the cut & pastes, nor the links, as much as I am offended that you consistently do not give other people credit for THEIR thoughts and words and - ultimately - their intellectual property; your lack of being responsible in doing so suggests you want to claim them for your own. Quite simply, shame on you.
quote:
Originally posted by e:
Oh, my. Plagiarism... Not only is it rude to not give other people credit for their own words, but it's also against the law. More importantly (imho), it's intellectually dishonest.

PBA, what's your problem? I don't have a problem with the cut & pastes, nor the links, as much as I am offended that you consistently do not give other people credit for THEIR thoughts and words and - ultimately - their intellectual property; your lack of being responsible in doing so suggests you want to claim them for your own. Quite simply, shame on you.


No harm intended, thanks for pointing this out.just for got to post the link. here is the link>>>> http://rightinaleftworld.blogspot.com/2007/01/choose-wisely-america.html
quote:
Originally posted by e:
Oh, my. Plagiarism... Not only is it rude to not give other people credit for their own words, but it's also against the law. More importantly (imho), it's intellectually dishonest.

PBA, what's your problem? I don't have a problem with the cut & pastes, nor the links, as much as I am offended that you consistently do not give other people credit for THEIR thoughts and words and - ultimately - their intellectual property; your lack of being responsible in doing so suggests you want to claim them for your own. Quite simply, shame on you.



E, DO A CHECK ON ME AND SEE IF THIS IS NOT MY ON REPLY PLEASE! I THINK IT IS,AT LEAST I DID NOT COPY AND PACE THIS REPLY! THANKS FOR LOOKING OUT FOR ME!



Interventor, As far as I remember Reagan joined but knew, like many of those in Hollywood and entertainment, they would not really see active duty. Some did join and did make sure they got active duty.

Reagan was a phony but today we are focused mainly on this administration and the right wing that push this war. They are called "Chicken Hawks" like Bush, who went AWOL and Cheney and most of the republican congress and right wing journalists.

THE list ABOVE lists them.
Today I continue the struggle to fight for the constitution and freedom for my country against the tyranny of my own government
quote:
Originally posted by interventor:
Reagan saw active duty, but stateside. My father and all my uncles were in the military in WWII. All, but one served overseas and saw extensive combat. The one, had bad eyes, and was not assigned overseas. But, he still saw active, honorable duty.


What does your father and all your uncles have to do with Reagan?
quote:
Originally posted by lewwaters:
I hope you don't mind me dropping in, but I have looked over the list given in the first post and did a bit of research. Quite a lengthy list misleading both sides as to who did and didn't serve.

Stop back over if you want to take a look;

Who Served Exposed


Fairly comprehensive and accurate, the list it purports to debunk is Headed Prominent...I suppose that all Senators and Representatives are propminent.

I happen to feel that excessive condemnation is a dangerous game for the same reason that excessive fawning is.

The issue is this, DO YOU OR I LEGITIMATELY CONDEMN OR HONOR military service? I am a Veteran, I enlisted, served my time and got out as a matter of Duty to country. I was asked to Volunteer for service in Vietnam as an advisor in 1962. I saw no reason to and declined, as was my right at the time.
THE MOST PROMINENT REPUBLICAN, George Bush, has a military record that is shameful.
The treatment of John Kerry by the Swift Boat Veterans is shameful. The Statements Kerry made in opposition to the Vietnam war proved to be substantially true, and the events he described were and are Shameful. His willingness to describe them took courage and conviction, but his willingness to describe them was an act of courage ONLY because there were people ashamed of what he described.
I am personally ashamed, as an American, as a Veteran, and as a Human Being that the United States has chosen to become an aggressor and invader.
If you are proud of the Invasion of Iraq, Say So, and don't try to rationalize the position.
quote:
Originally posted by pba:

Tell me all the great things Reagan did? I can't remember anything big, he did sell some guns,tanks, and a lot of other goodies to Iran.


Reagan inherited a fiscal mess from Carter...as well as a HUGE 'world image' problem for the U.S. military. He turned it all around. His administration laid the groundwork for the crumbling of the Iron Curtain.
Last edited by dogsoldier0513
quote:
Goerge W. Bush=got out of military servcie by using his dad's political
connections to get a straight line to a Nation Guard position (ahead of the
other 5,000 slobs who were waiting in line) and a DIRECT COMMISSION as a
fighter pilot! In the REAL WORLD the only people who get direct non-field
commissions are

Doctors, Lawyers, R.N.'s, Dentists, Pharmacists, etc. Not fighter pilots!


This statement about direct commisions is not true. At certain times, depending on the Army's needs, if a soldier or a civilian meets certain requirements (i.e. a 4 year college degree) they can be directly commisioned. Plus, why are those trying to get into the guard slobs? Even if you don't like the guard and what they are having to do in Iraq, they are the one thing that kept New Orleans from being burned to the ground after Katrina.
quote:
Originally posted by dogsoldier0513:
Reagan's THE BEST President we've had since Teddy Roosevelt. They're ALL 'crooks', but WORKING CLASS Americans PROSPERED under BOTH.

---------------------------

Dogman, I strongly disagree!!!
The very best president since Lincon was F.D. Roosevelt. Period. Except for Washington turning down "King", and Lincon's keeping the Union together, F.D.R. would be our greatest president.
Here is a summary of my view of Reagan as president. I voted for him- both times.
> His economic policy helped the rich at the expense of the poor. This gave the impression that the economy was booming, but in fact for many Americans, it was not so good. (sounds kinda familiar)
> This economic reality brought about layoff's for middle class people. I personally lost 2 good jobs (my only job losses during my working career that were not my leaving for a better job) . The first was general policy, the second was directly tied to one of his people.
In fact a whole lexacon of terms camp about during his adm. "down sizing, right sizing, etc"
He de-regulated everything. More commercials on TV, the airline industry (I haven't been on a flight that was on time since before he was president), and he hurt the unions.
The Soviet Union fell during his adm, and he got the credit, but in truth, all the presidents since Truman had a part in that.
He did some good things , I'll admit , like helping us get over Vietnam, but I don't think he is near the caliber of FDR (or even Clinton for that matter)
Alphonse,
At the time of the Vietnam war, national guardsmen were slobs...I remember a company of guardsmen taunting us as we were leaving Ft. Jackson for Vietnam....they were going home and we were going to war, and they let us know it quite well.......I remember guys my age calling everyone they knew to get them into the guard.....
I would think you could find very few soldiers retiring from the guard recently that got in to avoid the draft. I don't have any numbers to back this up, but most of the recent retirees (of Viet Nam age) I know are upstanding citizens. Several of these retirees are Viet Nam vets that joined the guard when they came back from Viet Nam. I'll be the first to admit, there are some bums in the guard.

As far as 30 years without ever leaving Alabama, that may not be the guardsman fault, you go where they send you.

In my opinion, more people join the guard today for the wrong reasons than before. A great many of the recruits I talk to join for college money or job training, which aren't bad things. Whatever happened to Patriotism? Am I just outdated?
EdEKit > DO YOU OR I LEGITIMATELY CONDEMN OR HONOR military service?

I do not, which is clearly stated at the beginning of my post on my blog. However, some have made the effort to condemn members of one party for either not serving, or serving in either the Guard or the Reserves, while holding up members of the other party as “served in uniform.” Anybody that served, served, as far as I’m concerned and unless shown otherwise, served honorably.

I too am a Veteran, 18 months boots on the ground in Viet Nam, 3 years in Germany afterwards and 3 more in Ft. Bragg, NC until I had enough and ETS’d. All years were as an OH-6A/OH-58A Helicopter Crew Chief/Mechanic and Technical Inspector.

THE MOST PROMINENT REPUBLICAN, George Bush, has a military record that is shameful.

While I won’t claim he had a stellar time in the TANG, I fail to see why he should be ashamed of his service. As links I provided show, he did ask about being sent to Viet Nam but did not yet qualify for the program in effect at the time. He did attend flight school and was certified to fly the F-102 fighter jet. That alone isn’t a shameful task. At the time of his supposed AWOL and failed physical, they were phasing the F-102 out and with little time left to serve, even the Air National Guard wouldn’t waste time, effort or money retraining into a new aircraft.

Still, he completed his needed hours for discharge and received an Honorable Discharge. He also never ran as any type of “hero,” unlike another who condemned all 2.5 million of us who served in country.

The treatment of John Kerry by the Swift Boat Veterans is shameful. The Statements Kerry made in opposition to the Vietnam war proved to be substantially true, and the events he described were and are Shameful. His willingness to describe them took courage and conviction, but his willingness to describe them was an act of courage ONLY because there were people ashamed of what he described.

BOVINE SCATOLOGY!!! Ask yourself how anyone received 3 Purple Hearts in 3 months (his first month was in training) and never spent a single night in a hospital. No one I knew of ever went and requested Purple Hearts, as he did with the first one that was denied, only to have him somehow get it later.

Why does someone merit a Bronz Star for a standard ‘man overboard’ drill of someone he caused to fall off of his boat?

And, how does one receive a Silver Star (once described as with a “V” device) for supposedly killing a wounded and fleeing enemy?

What Kerry described is also nonsense, as the vast majority of us who served there will tell. Yes, atrocities did occur, as they do in all wars, but the were prosecuted and were not “crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.” He even later stated that he never personally witnessed any atrocities himself. Additionally, he stated that 200,000 Vietnamese were being murdered a year by the United States of America. Ask yourself, who was there for the United States of America? The troops, that’s who. So, he said American troops were “murdering 200,000” a year. That, my friend, was no ‘botched joke.’

He went on to say, “The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence…” Since you state, “The Statements Kerry made in opposition to the Vietnam war proved to be substantially true,” do you join him in condemning Viet Nam Veterans as monsters? If we are, why aren’t we all locked up somewhere and not roaming the streets?

Of course, we aren’t, as Viet Nam Veterans actually have a lower rate of incarceration than do our contemporaries.

What the Swiftees did was to put their butts on the line and speak out against someone they new to be a charlatan and an opportunist. The DNC talking point of “they didn’t serve on his boat” doesn’t cut it as the boats worked as teams of 3 or more usually. Since they were within mere feet of each other, it is easily seen what happens on the other boat.

In Kerry’s own words, in an article for the 1986 book, “A War Remembered” he stated, “…volunteering for Swift boats had nothing to do with my curiosity about the war. They attracted me because it was the one thing you could do as a junior officer and have your own command. In fact, when I signed up the Swift boats they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing.” Yet, throughout his Political career, he claims he was a war hero because he volunteered for Viet Nam and hazardous duty on Swift Boats.

Also most telling was his refusal to make his full and complete and unfettered records open to the public, as did Bush and as he demanded Bush do. If he had, maybe we would know why his Discharge he posted on his website was dated 1978 when his actual discharge would have been in 1972 (and after he also claimed he received an early release from the Navy) and why his discharge was put before a review of officers.

To date, he has not made is full record public and only allowed review of his record by 3 friendly reporters from 3 friendly newspapers.

While I didn’t fully agree with going after Kerry’s Military record, what the Swift Vets claimed has not been disproved, only the Kerry camp claiming it was all lies and being accepted that way.

I am personally ashamed, as an American, as a Veteran, and as a Human Being that the United States has chosen to become an aggressor and invader..

After 9/11, it’s long overdue that we take a stand against terrorists, whether in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq or elsewhere. I don’t need to rationalize my stand, I am proud of, finally, terrorism is being fought. It should have been fought back in 1979.

Returning to the draft dodging claims of the original post, and your nuance of “prominent” being listed, care to discuss “Prominent Democrats” left off the list who either didn’t serve or served in another theater during war time, but not the war? We can start with Ted Kennedy, who served during Korea but never saw Korea. Could Daddy have pulled strings? What about the current batch of “prominent” leaders?

What about Harry Reid? He didn’t serve at all, either. Did he “avoid the draft?” Of course, we know Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton didn’t serve either. Aren’t they “prominent” enough?

This “Who Served” list is dishonest, deceptive in the way it was constructed by listing Republicans who either did not serve or served in the National Guard or Reserves as “avoiding the draft,” and at the same time, listing Democrats who served in the Guard or Reserves as “served in uniform,” and ignoring those who didn’t serve at all.

Truth be known, neither party can claim any moral high ground due to who served and who didn’t. Both contain Veterans as well as those who didn’t serve at all.
Lewwaters I agree with what you say except for one small thing. Bush was AWOL the day he was to pick up his seperation papers. What I read is that he was a Yale, got his honorable Discharge and did not bother to pick up the papers. I might have been lied to, but it fits the pattern. I have NO respect for GW Bush. And I think his lack of respectability goes back to a time when he was not known outside his immediate family.

Other than that, I am disgusted by both sides of this despicable debate.
quote:
Originally posted by lewwaters:
EdEKit > DO YOU OR I LEGITIMATELY CONDEMN OR HONOR military service?

I do not, which is clearly stated at the beginning of my post on my blog. However, some have made the effort to condemn members of one party for either not serving, or serving in either the Guard or the Reserves, while holding up members of the other party as “served in uniform.” Anybody that served, served, as far as I’m concerned and unless shown otherwise, served honorably.

I too am a Veteran, 18 months boots on the ground in Viet Nam, 3 years in Germany afterwards and 3 more in Ft. Bragg, NC until I had enough and ETS’d. All years were as an OH-6A/OH-58A Helicopter Crew Chief/Mechanic and Technical Inspector.

THE MOST PROMINENT REPUBLICAN, George Bush, has a military record that is shameful.

While I won’t claim he had a stellar time in the TANG, I fail to see why he should be ashamed of his service. As links I provided show, he did ask about being sent to Viet Nam but did not yet qualify for the program in effect at the time. He did attend flight school and was certified to fly the F-102 fighter jet. That alone isn’t a shameful task. At the time of his supposed AWOL and failed physical, they were phasing the F-102 out and with little time left to serve, even the Air National Guard wouldn’t waste time, effort or money retraining into a new aircraft.

Still, he completed his needed hours for discharge and received an Honorable Discharge. He also never ran as any type of “hero,” unlike another who condemned all 2.5 million of us who served in country.

The treatment of John Kerry by the Swift Boat Veterans is shameful. The Statements Kerry made in opposition to the Vietnam war proved to be substantially true, and the events he described were and are Shameful. His willingness to describe them took courage and conviction, but his willingness to describe them was an act of courage ONLY because there were people ashamed of what he described.

BOVINE SCATOLOGY!!! Ask yourself how anyone received 3 Purple Hearts in 3 months (his first month was in training) and never spent a single night in a hospital. No one I knew of ever went and requested Purple Hearts, as he did with the first one that was denied, only to have him somehow get it later.

Why does someone merit a Bronz Star for a standard ‘man overboard’ drill of someone he caused to fall off of his boat?

And, how does one receive a Silver Star (once described as with a “V” device) for supposedly killing a wounded and fleeing enemy?

What Kerry described is also nonsense, as the vast majority of us who served there will tell. Yes, atrocities did occur, as they do in all wars, but the were prosecuted and were not “crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.” He even later stated that he never personally witnessed any atrocities himself. Additionally, he stated that 200,000 Vietnamese were being murdered a year by the United States of America. Ask yourself, who was there for the United States of America? The troops, that’s who. So, he said American troops were “murdering 200,000” a year. That, my friend, was no ‘botched joke.’

He went on to say, “The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence…” Since you state, “The Statements Kerry made in opposition to the Vietnam war proved to be substantially true,” do you join him in condemning Viet Nam Veterans as monsters? If we are, why aren’t we all locked up somewhere and not roaming the streets?

Of course, we aren’t, as Viet Nam Veterans actually have a lower rate of incarceration than do our contemporaries.

What the Swiftees did was to put their butts on the line and speak out against someone they new to be a charlatan and an opportunist. The DNC talking point of “they didn’t serve on his boat” doesn’t cut it as the boats worked as teams of 3 or more usually. Since they were within mere feet of each other, it is easily seen what happens on the other boat.

In Kerry’s own words, in an article for the 1986 book, “A War Remembered” he stated, “…volunteering for Swift boats had nothing to do with my curiosity about the war. They attracted me because it was the one thing you could do as a junior officer and have your own command. In fact, when I signed up the Swift boats they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing.” Yet, throughout his Political career, he claims he was a war hero because he volunteered for Viet Nam and hazardous duty on Swift Boats.

Also most telling was his refusal to make his full and complete and unfettered records open to the public, as did Bush and as he demanded Bush do. If he had, maybe we would know why his Discharge he posted on his website was dated 1978 when his actual discharge would have been in 1972 (and after he also claimed he received an early release from the Navy) and why his discharge was put before a review of officers.

To date, he has not made is full record public and only allowed review of his record by 3 friendly reporters from 3 friendly newspapers.

While I didn’t fully agree with going after Kerry’s Military record, what the Swift Vets claimed has not been disproved, only the Kerry camp claiming it was all lies and being accepted that way.

I am personally ashamed, as an American, as a Veteran, and as a Human Being that the United States has chosen to become an aggressor and invader..

After 9/11, it’s long overdue that we take a stand against terrorists, whether in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq or elsewhere. I don’t need to rationalize my stand, I am proud of, finally, terrorism is being fought. It should have been fought back in 1979.

Returning to the draft dodging claims of the original post, and your nuance of “prominent” being listed, care to discuss “Prominent Democrats” left off the list who either didn’t serve or served in another theater during war time, but not the war? We can start with Ted Kennedy, who served during Korea but never saw Korea. Could Daddy have pulled strings? What about the current batch of “prominent” leaders?

What about Harry Reid? He didn’t serve at all, either. Did he “avoid the draft?” Of course, we know Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton didn’t serve either. Aren’t they “prominent” enough?

This “Who Served” list is dishonest, deceptive in the way it was constructed by listing Republicans who either did not serve or served in the National Guard or Reserves as “avoiding the draft,” and at the same time, listing Democrats who served in the Guard or Reserves as “served in uniform,” and ignoring those who didn’t serve at all.

Truth be known, neither party can claim any moral high ground due to who served and who didn’t. Both contain Veterans as well as those who didn’t serve at all.




Bush's military record has disappeared. He applied and got into what was called the "champagne unit" of the National Guard through his fathers influence who wrote letters and lobbied friends and associates on his behalf. This unit was reserved for the wealthy sons of influential people and sports figures. They never even thought about combat. That was the reason only the wealthy and personalties could get in.
It was safe. This was exposed by a former Texas politician, who was connected to the board at the time. It was also reported by Molly Ivans. He was accused of going AWOL, refusing to take drug tests and spent very little time, if at all in the air.

Liberal groups have offered millions of dollars to anyone who served with him at the time he is accused of being AWOL to step forward and document in someway that they remember him being there and clear Bush's name. No one has ever come forward.

Kerry risked his life under fire to save another soldier who had been hit. Kerry himself was wounded. It is documented by the Pentagon who investigates all incidents. They have backed up the story and the medals.

The Swift boat story has been discounted and discredited by the majority of those who were there at the time. The Swift boat allegations were made by one individual (I believe) who was not there. They were not just a few feet away.

The Swift Boat slander was instigated by a key Republican Businessman, who's name I forget at the moment, who has spent huge sums of money throwing lies and dirt and promoting right wing candidates. It was nothing more then another republican lie and Rove technique.

The media gave credence to the story during election time but it has since been discarded as unreliable election dirt. A "shameful period" in election history. A new low. The term "Swifting Boating" has even made it's way into the American language and media describing when a candidate, or person, is barraged with dirt and unsubstantiated allegations. The Swift Boat story was a lie and is not even discussed any more. It went down the toilet with those "WMD" and Saddem's connections to al Qaeda.

There are numerous books and accountants of atrocities that were told by returning Vietnam Vets and documented by independent and foreign journalists. You have to do a search because most of them came out int the late 60's, and during the 70's and 80's. Over two million Vietnamese were killed.

The US was an Occupying Force" which had no right to be there. The war was illegal and a lie. Like most wars are to trick the average person into fighting them.

Post Traumatic Stress effected tens of thousands of returning vets and many went untreated. They do have problems with violence, especially domestic violence and incarceration and homelessness.

We were not attacked by Iraq and the war is a lie. It was promoted by what are termed "Chicken Hawks." The list of those who did and did not serve is highly enlightening. The majority of those who are the loudest and most emphatic war hawks never served at all. The Democrats who did serve are portrayed by the right wing and in the media as "unpatriotic" and weak. Yet the record shows it is actually the majority of democrats that served and not the war hawks, or "Chicken Hawks" as they are referred to.

Granted, there are Chicken Hawks on both sides of the aisle but we find more democrats served then republicans.

Our government is corrupted by corporate money and power and controls both parties. The corporate republicans led the way to the Iraq War but the spineless corporate democrats followed. It's happening again with Iran.


I respect those who went to fight believing they were doing the right thing but time and history has shown the war was a lie. Believing otherwise does not do anyone any good.

Today I continue to struggle to defend the Constitution against the tyranny of my own government and end it's crimes against humanity around the world.
pba => Bush's military record has disappeared. He applied and got into what was called the "champagne unit" of the National Guard through his fathers influence who wrote letters and lobbied friends and associates on his behalf. This unit was reserved for the wealthy sons of influential people and sports figures. They never even thought about combat. That was the reason only the wealthy and personalties could get in.

Nonsense! Bush’s record was gone over with a fine tooth comb, down to pay records and dental visits. (remember?) The one person who claimed he pulled strings for Bush was totally unsubstantiated by anyone and contradicted by every other person who trained or supervised him. Bush’s IP, Colonel Thomas G. Lockhart, USAF (Ret), said of Bush, “[He] put himself totally into the task of becoming the best aviator in the class. His unit flew Century Series jet fighters, which required the best pilots. There was no room for error, as these airplanes were unforgiving, and the price for a mistake was often the pilot's life. George W. Bush appeared to have that "fighter pilot attitude" from our first meeting. This attitude can best be described as: "I can handle the situation--regardless of the odds." He was extremely competitive and eager to learn every thing about his machine and the enemy's tactics. He was quick to pick up the flying skills necessary to maneuver an aircraft into a position to shoot down an enemy aircraft.”

The “Bush was AWOL” charge was thoroughly debunked, both in 2000 and 2004, AWOL Charge Debunked. The October 26, 2004 edition of The Williamsburg, Pennsylvania Sun-Gazette ran a story about two brothers, Adam and Bryan Makos, historians and publishers of military aircraft magazine Ghost Wings, who spent some three years researching Viet Nam era fighter pilots, including Bush. What they found was the exact opposite of the claims made against Bush. They interviewed Officers who trained Bush as well as those who served with him. Former Texas House Speaker and Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes made the unsubstantiated charges and CBS ran with them, which ended up being thoroughly discredited for not verifying the documents supplied them. It should also be noted that Barnes is a Democrat who was supporting and actively raising money for Kerry, at the time he made the accusations.

Three OERs of his: A 1970 [Bush] “clearly stands out as a top notch fighter interceptor pilot” and was “a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to for leadership.” 1971 [Bush was] “an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot” who “continually flies intercept missions with the unit to increase his proficiency even further.” 1972 [Bush was] “an exceptional fighter interceptor pilot and officer.” Hill News

Col. John H. Wambough USAF (Retired), said, “Cowards (or people who lack courage) don’t take on the risks that Lt. Bush did in flying Fighter Interceptor Aircraft,” and “Having been a Squadron Commander, I can tell you this -- we know the status of our assigned personnel all the time -- everyone is accounted for. We reported the status of all our squadron personnel daily to a higher level in our organization. Likewise, Lt. Bush’s Squadron Commander of 30 plus years ago (Lt. Col. Killian, now deceased), would have known where Lt. Bush was or, at the very least, how to contact him should that have been necessary. The bottom line: Lt. Bush’s documented Air National Guard service exceeded the requirements set forth in his Guard contract and Lt. Bush received an Honorable Discharge.”
Ed Morrisey Jr., retired colonel with TANG and the man that swore Bush into the service in May 1968 said, “the argument that Bush got off easy by being in the National Guard doesn't take into consideration the context of the 1960s. Bush and the others were flying several flights day or night over the Gulf of Mexico to identify the unknown. The Cold War was a nervous time. You never knew. There were other things going on equally important to the country, and the Air National Guard had a primary role in it.''
Col. William Campenni (USAF)(TANG)(retired), who served with Bush in the TANG said, “[the Guard] did become a place of refuge for many wanting to avoid Vietnam. There was one big exception to this abusive use of the Guard to avoid the draft, and that was for those who wanted to fly, as pilots or crew members. Because of the training required, signing up for this duty meant up to 2½ years of active duty for training alone, plus a high probability of mobilization. A fighter-pilot candidate selected by the Guard (such as Lt. Bush and me) would be spending the next two years on active duty going through basic training (six weeks), flight training (one year), survival training (two weeks) and combat crew training for his aircraft (six to nine months), followed by local checkout (up to three more months) before he was even deemed combat-ready. Because the draft was just two years, you sure weren't getting out of duty being an Air Guard pilot.”

Campenni also stated, “Another frequent charge is that, as a member of the Texas ANG, Lt. Bush twice ignored or disobeyed lawful orders, first by refusing to report for a required physical in the year when drug testing first became part of the exam, and second by failing to report for duty at the disciplinary unit in Colorado to which he had been ordered. Well, here are the facts:”

”First, there is no instance of Lt. Bush disobeying lawful orders in reporting for a physical, as none would be given. Pilots are scheduled for their annual flight physicals in their birth month during that month's weekend drill assembly -- the only time the clinic is open. In the Reserves, it is not uncommon to miss this deadline by a month or so for a variety of reasons: The clinic is closed that month for special training; the individual is out of town on civilian business; etc.”

”If so, the pilot is grounded temporarily until he completes the physical. Also, the formal drug testing program was not instituted by the Air Force until the 1980s and is done randomly by lot, not as a special part of a flight physical, when one easily could abstain from drug use because of its date certain. Blood work is done, but to ensure a healthy pilot, not confront a drug user.”

”Second, there was no such thing as a "disciplinary unit in Colorado" to which Lt. Bush had been ordered. The Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver is a repository of the paperwork for those no longer assigned to a specific unit, such as retirees and transferees. Mine is there now, so I guess I'm "being disciplined." These "disciplinary units" just don't exist. Any discipline, if required, is handled within the local squadron, group or wing, administratively or judicially. Had there been such an infraction or court-martial action, there would be a record and a reflection in Lt. Bush's performance review and personnel folder. None exists, as was confirmed in The Washington Post in 2000.” Washington Times Archives


Liberal groups have offered millions of dollars to anyone who served with him at the time he is accused of being AWOL to step forward and document in someway that they remember him being there and clear Bush's name. No one has ever come forward.

Naturally, there isn’t anything for anyone to clear. Unsubstantiated accusations merit no response by anyone. The burden of proof is placed upon the one making the accusation, not the other way around. Didn’t you ever watch Perry Mason? Also, Bush’s wingmen stood with him, none accused him of the nefarious shortcomings you state, but stated the opposite. Wingmen for Bush


Kerry risked his life under fire to save another soldier who had been hit. Kerry himself was wounded. It is documented by the Pentagon who investigates all incidents. They have backed up the story and the medals.

After accelerating away from the boat that had a mine explode under it (not Kerry’s), running down river fleeing the presumed battle scene (documented in a Washington Post article August 9, 2004, I believe). Rassman fell off of Kerry’s boat and by his own admission, “dove to the bottom of the river and stayed there as long as he could hold his breath” due to a lot of firing, later determined to be from the 5 Swift Boats there that day. Realizing he had lost a man from his boat, Kerry turned his around from some 5,000 yards away and went back to retrieve the now surfaced Rassman. Rassman was not shot, Kerry was not shot. Kerry’s medical record stated of this incident, "In firefight approx. 3 hours ago, pt was a) thrown against bulkhead sustaining injury (contusion) to R forearm." A contusion is a bruise. In the recommendation, written by Rassman, it was said, Lt.(jg) Kerry "from an exposed position on the bow" and with his "his arm bleeding and in pain." From a bruise?

An article in the October 1, 2004 edition of the Chicago Sun Times showed that it was Kerry himself who wrote the after action report now held by the Pentagon.

The Swift boat story has been discounted and discredited by the majority of those who were there at the time. The Swift boat allegations were made by one individual (I believe) who was not there. They were not just a few feet away.

First, I suggest you actually learn something about Swift Boat Operations used in the rivers of South Viet Nam. Photos shared by both the Swift Vets and Kerry showed the boats in groups merely feet away from each other.

Secondly, shouting out that it is all lies and the Swiftees are liars, as did Lawrence O’Donnell on MSNBC's Scarborough Country, October 22, 2004, doesn't disprove anything.

The majority of those there that time were members of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Kerry only had the support of most of the crew that served on his boat. The one man that spent the most amount of time on Kerry’s boat with him, Steve Gardner, did not support him.

Incidentally, just as we did in our Helicopters, Kerry and the Swiftees did not live on their boats 24/7 by themselves. They too had barracks and mess halls and “O” Clubs where they congregated together in the evenings and the few off days we might have had.

The Swift Boat slander was instigated by a key Republican Businessman, who's name I forget at the moment, who has spent huge sums of money throwing lies and dirt and promoting right wing candidates. It was nothing more then another republican lie and Rove technique.

Wrong! Houston home builder, Bob R. Perry put up the initial $100,000 after they formed and called their first press conference in May of 2004, which went ignored by the lamestream media. Perry came forward and fronted nearly two thirds of the $158,000 needed to produce the first commercial. After that, contributions poured in from all over the country in small amounts that added up, including from yours truly and as was duly reported to the government.

That Perry is a Republican should come as no surprise. He isn’t a George Soros (who funneled millions, not thousands into groups like moveon.org and such) but who would you expect to donate to a group opposing Kerry, John Edwards? Odd that Soros’s contributions never seemed to bother anyone from the left. Double standard?

Incidentally, John O'Neill, the spokesman for the group, was a lifelong Deomcrat who, it has been documented, donated much more to Democrat candidates than to Republicans, over the years. After the treatment he received from Democrats, he no longer is a member of that party.

The media gave credence to the story during election time but it has since been discarded as unreliable election dirt. A "shameful period" in election history. A new low. The term "Swifting Boating" has even made it's way into the American language and media describing when a candidate, or person, is barraged with dirt and unsubstantiated allegations. The Swift Boat story was a lie and is not even discussed any more. It went down the toilet with those "WMD" and Saddem's connections to al Qaeda.

Wrong again. The Swift Vets called for a Press Conference in early May of 2004 and it was ignored by the lamestream media. That is when they decided to make the commercial.

No matter how you try to make ‘swiftboating’ a derogatory term, it fails to ruin the actual definition, “to reveal a truth about a politician they desire to remain hidden.”

Since you claim the Swift Boat Vets lied, I assume you can document where their allegations were proven as such? They provided multiple accounts of disparity in Kerry’s claims over the years, including where he claimed Nixon had him in Cambodia and lied about it over Christmas of 1968. HINT: Nixon wasn’t president at that time.

They provided eye witness accounts of events contrary to Kerry’s. They brought out the disparity in Kerry’s “honorable discharge” being dated 6 years after the time he would have received one and the fact that his medals were reissued in the early 1980s, including three different documented citations for the one Silver Star. They also brought out former Secretary of the Navy, John Lehman, whose signature appears miraculously on the third citation for the SS who said, "It is a total mystery to me. I never saw it. I never signed it. I never approved it. And the additional language it contains was not written by me."

Your DNC talking points will be ignored

There are numerous books and accountants of atrocities that were told by returning Vietnam Vets and documented by independent and foreign journalists. You have to do a search because most of them came out int the late 60's, and during the 70's and 80's. Over two million Vietnamese were killed.

Sorry, I don’t need comic books to teach me about Viet Nam. I was there and saw first hand what nonsense was being printed about it. Even Peter Arnett’s claims of chemical weapons was disproved.

Of Kerry’s Winter Soldier Investigation, not one who testified was willing to go on official record making the atrocity claims, even though offered immunity, when investigated and approached by government investigators. Most were discovered to not even be Viet Nam Veterans, some not even having served in any branch of the Military. One, Steve Pitkin, who did serve in Viet Nam, was wounded, signed an affidavit in 2004 of how he was coerced into making false claims at Kerry’s kangaroo investigation.

The North Vietnamese have came forward since and admitted that more than two million died. This after the left claimed the weekly body counts were made up by the US Military. Additionally, North Vietnamese officers have also came forward stating the anti-war left were “essential to their victory.” They knew they couldn’t defeat the American Military, so like today, they played to the anti-war left back in the states to draw down any public support we had. The Commanding General, Vo Ngyuen Giap, is said to have been considering negotiating a surrender after his forces were decimated in the fiasco of the Tet of ’68 offensive, but saw the discontent and the report by Walter Cronkite declaring he had won it. He had found our weak link and played it until he was victorious, two years after the last American troop left and after the Democrat controlled Congress of the time voted to cut off any and all support for South Viet Nam. Hence, it fell to communism in April of 1975.

The US was an Occupying Force" which had no right to be there. The war was illegal and a lie. Like most wars are to trick the average person into fighting them.

I refer you to the words of famed Democrat, John F. Kennedy, “Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” What happened to the Vietnamese after America turned her back on them, as well as what happened in neighboring Cambodia and Laos should be a matter of shame to all demanding a similar abandonment of Iraq today.

Since were also subject to Vietnamese laws while there, we couldn't have much of an "occupying force."

Post Traumatic Stress effected tens of thousands of returning vets and many went untreated. They do have problems with violence, especially domestic violence and incarceration and homelessness.

So, like Kerry, you lump us all as ‘monsters?’ I have never been jailed, never been homeless, raised two daughters to adulthood, although divorced, never hit a woman, least of all my wife, don’t drink, enjoy a cigar occasionally and every single guy I served with has a similar experience. 1/2 of one percent (out of 2.5 million) of Vietnam Veterans have been jailed for crimes, Vietnam veterans' personal income exceeds that of our non-veteran age group by more than 18 percent, Vietnam veterans have a lower unemployment rate than our non-vet age group. PTSD claims are difficult to determine as well as easily faked. There was once even a woman who was almost awarded disability by the VA for PTSD related to her POW status in North Viet Nam. HINT: No women were ever captured and held in North Viet Nam during the war.

Care to back up your claims as to how screwed up we all are?

Additionally, wouldn’t your claims also apply to Kerry? Do you want a man who you feel is so prone to violence and PTSD in the White House?

We were not attacked by Iraq and the war is a lie.

HINT: We are not at war with Iraq. We are at war with the terrorists that flooded into Iraq. We are not fighting a country, but a misguided ideology that wishes to oppress the entire globe under their radical view of a religion.

Granted, there are Chicken Hawks on both sides of the aisle but we find more democrats served then republicans.

Jeeez. Your bogus list you posted was easily disproven by me. Your claim that Democrats hold moral high ground over Republicans is dishonest and deceptive in ignoring several prominent Democrats who never served, Harry Reid, Howard Dean, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Dennis Kucinich and more. Bogus claims were made about Republicans who did serve. You really should research things before making claims. As stated, neither party has any legitimate basis for claiming any high ground on the basis of who served and who didn’t.

I respect those who went to fight believing they were doing the right thing but time and history has shown the war was a lie. Believing otherwise does not do anyone any good.

Then, you advocate the defeat of America by terrorists? You can claim respecting those who went to fight, but earlier claimed we that did “have problems with violence, especially domestic violence and incarceration and homelessness?” Pardon me if your claims of respect falls on deaf ears.

Today I continue to struggle to defend the Constitution against the tyranny of my own government and end it's crimes against humanity around the world.

Your BDS can be treated.
Last edited by lewwaters
Ditto here on lewwaters.....

Funny how the liberals claim that "only the poor and the oppressed" join the Army.....and they are the ones that want to restart the draft or bring the issue up...

As someone IN the Army, I hope they DON'T bring it back......We have enough trouble as it is with folks who VOLUNTEERED to join, don't need that compounded by folks who are FORCED to join and don't want to be with us....
midknightrider and Brentenman, thank you both.

Thank you also for serving, Brent. As a Veteran of Viet Nam, I see the left pulling the same nonsense today they did back then and it really irritates me.

I shudder to think what will happen to our country should they succeed. Unlike Viet Nam, this time, it won't be a simple matter of the enemy just taking over a small country.

To those who say "give peace a chance," we did, for 30 years and look what it got us, multiple terrorist attacks, two on our own soil.

If you really want peace to reign, you first have to convince the terrorists around the globe.

Before that, you need to realize we have nothing they want, other than to eleminate us and Israel so they can rule.

Choose Wisely, America
quote:
Originally posted by Brentenman:
lewwaters, off topic....What rifle did you use, M14 or XM16E1A1/M16A1? PM me your likes/dislikes, etc.....I have some info that may interest you, depending on your answer....

______________________________________

I just read this comment from Brentenman on the last thread. This was his response to another commenter who addressed him on the thread:

"First off, don't be a troll and hijack this thread....keep it in focus of what the thread starter's topic is. That is common etiquette...."



Hmmmm... It looks like a double standard is at play. Roll Eyes

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