WHO IS A CHRISTIAN? A simple question, with many answers

quote:

Originally posted by Kindred:
As far as what4 goes, he is a good guy, with a good message that he is trying to deliver. All he wants is to share. I don't think anything is wrong with that at all.

No offense at all here!!! [/color][/b]

Thanks Kindred, I appreciate that.

quote:

Originally posted by Taciturn:
I'm going to step out on a limb here with risk of offending someone but it's not my intention.
Why all the rudeness toward what4? Bill has a huge ego that he is proud of, which I myself have mentioned here. what4 has admitted that he has been wrong in his coming across a little to strong at times but some of you still ridicule him.
He seems to truly love God, & I get a feeling he is sincere in his defense of God. I have been wrong in my attacks of him, Micah, Bill & others and I'm trying to keep myself in check. I read the post, as I'm sure others did, where he apologized to Vick & I thought it was a very nice post.
If any of his post deserves being reported & deleted by TD moderator's, then some of mine deserve to be reported & deleted too. I have said some pretty harsh things to people on here & I was wrong. What gives?, why all the antagonism toward what4?
DeepFat & GoFish (forgive me guys) ridicule God & Christianity regularly but no one wants their post reported or deleted.
Is this forum not intended for all opinions, no matter if we agree or not? I don't understand why some are targeted & some are not.
As I said, this is not meant to offend anyone, just another one of my opinions in how I see things. Should I be reported to TD moderators & have this post deleted?

Thanks Tac. I appreciate what you have said very much.

quote:

Originally posted by Kindred:
Micah, I said it was ONLY an observation!!! Or didn't you 'read' me?

I am not judging Bill Gray, he has done that HIMSELF, he didn't need me. I just don't want any good Christian stumbled by trickery and ego.

Surely you don't either!!!

1Jo 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Micah

quote:

Originally posted by Micah_Eaton:

quote:

Originally posted by Kindred:
Micah, I said it was ONLY an observation!!! Or didn't you 'read' me?

I am not judging Bill Gray, he has done that HIMSELF, he didn't need me. I just don't want any good Christian stumbled by trickery and ego.

Surely you don't either!!!

1Jo 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Micah

That is a good scripture, Micah. I have always liked that. But I am going to say that I have never felt love from Bill. From others I have, but not from Bill.

I have felt insulted, put down, berated, made fun of as well as betrayal.

THAT, my friend is what the Bible means about stumbling people. You have to allow your light to SHINE into their path so that they do not stumble. Not be mean or abusive to them or others. Once that happens, the light goes out.

quote:

Originally posted by what4:

quote:

Originally posted by Kindred:
As far as what4 goes, he is a good guy, with a good message that he is trying to deliver. All he wants is to share. I don't think anything is wrong with that at all.

No offense at all here!!! [/color][/b]

Thanks Kindred, I appreciate that.

YOUR light shines And you don't berate, insult and be mean and vindictive to people and for that, I appreciate YOU!!!

Thanks to you

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quote:

Originally posted by Micah_Eaton:
I have another observation for you all: Gofish, you missed a couple of WACKO's, Bill and What4 are not the only ones!

You're right. I overlooked you. You too are a creationist wacko.

Sorry about the oversight.

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Cool

As much as I appreciate the long response, you proved my point
Micah

my goodness gracious (as my sweet Granny said), at all the banter going on....

i have taken a step back, and reassessed how i present myself thru God's word..and for the most part, i've been more thoughtful in reading and understanding the postings here, before i reply..

my recent observations, for what it's worth:
bashing ANYONE on here, just tends to rile the feathers of the others, and serves no fruitful purpose for any of us..some, in their own ways, have tried to convey that..some are incensed with the way in which postings are written..may i suggest, glean what you can, take the rest with a grain of salt, or 'ignore' as you wish..

if you are athieist, agnostic, non-believer, Christian, whatever....we are all just PEOPLE..we have the same heart beating within us..i have first-hand knowledge that the same red blood runs thru each 'kind' of us..we each have our own personal goals in this life..and we all want the best for our family and friends..

we do not all have to be 'friends' here..show me any group of willful gatherers who are, probably not..we all share so many things in this life, in fact, we surely have many more 'alikes' than not..if believing that, perhaps we can be a little kinder about how we present ourselves to each other..every one of us, has family and friends, who love us immensely..we ALL have WORTH..

if you believe in a cause, by all means, stand for it!!..and if it contradicts MY belief, i'll be standing firmly, with my Bible in hand, presenting the evidence i have....but i will not call you names, downgrade you, judge you, serve innuendos, or blast you off the page....and if i do, i'm praying you will respond kindly....

just remembering the roots of my 'hippie' past, and praying y'all have a very Blessed holiday season.......now, let's get back to it!!

When I get to Heaven, and if Bill is there, I'll avoid him, and go hang out with the cool kids.

There, problem solved.

~Amanda

now miss Manda, i know you are not truly meaning that...because, EVERYONE in heaven will be sinless and pure..no past will be remembered, we will ALL be the SAME..sitting at the feet of JESUS...

ps..i wonder if there is a weight limit on any of those clouds??

Tis is why it was a joke, Hippie.

Micah insinuated that we have to get along here on the mortal coil, when in fact, when we get to Heaven, it won't really matter if we got along or not.

To me, Bill kind of fits the false prophet category. He uses everyone else to further his opinions, and doesn't even really listen to anything said to him. I believe a lot differently than most, but that's one thing I do think applies when it comes to my beliefs.

It's my opinion that some people should enjoy life, and learn when jokes are said and when they aren't. A few here have taken some of my jokes totally serious. It's a shame that they can't grasp that simple joy.

Btw, if there is a weight limit on the clouds, I need one that's extra fluffy. hehe

~Amanda

Tis is why it was a joke, Hippie.
yep, just thought i'd catch it before it got blown outta the water..

gonna be LOTS of fluffy clouds up there!

quote:

Originally posted by *~*Manda*~*:

Micah insinuated that we have to get along here on the mortal coil, when in fact, when we get to Heaven, it won't really matter if we got along or not.

~Amanda

Excuse me I insinuated what?? What kind of Bible do you read anyway? because mine says "Love thy neighbour as thy self, Pick up your cross everyday, I can go on but you get the point...... do I think your demonstrating that? do you want me to "Insinuate" something?

I'm curious: Some Christians are more than willing to ignore science and even reality whenever it conflicts with their core religious beliefs. Is there any of you who would be willing to admit to this "subjective reality"?

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:
I'm curious: Some Christians are more than willing to ignore science and even reality whenever it conflicts with their core religious beliefs. Is there any of you who would be willing to admit to this "subjective reality"?

Of course not! If I used your "subjective reality" then I would have to ignore parts of the Bible, and if I ignored part of the Bible, then I would be forced to wonder how I could ever believe in anything it said. I would soon come up with a totally new "Religion" of my own. I could take out all the stuff I struggle with, and then add some more and Re-write the Bible till I have the book of Mormon Micah's version! (Sorry any Mormans.. needed a example.)
I won't give up, shut up, let up or slow up until I have stayed up, stored up, prayed up, paid up and spoken up for the cause of Christ. I'm a disciple of Jesus. I must go till He comes, give till I drop, preach till all know and work till He stops me. And when He comes for His own, He will have no problem recognizing me. My banner is clear:
I am a part of the "Fellowship of the Unashamed."

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:
I'm curious: Some Christians are more than willing to ignore science and even reality whenever it conflicts with their core religious beliefs. Is there any of you who would be willing to admit to this "subjective reality"?

I've never found one proven thing in science that contradicts God's word. It is only when scientists try to group the facts into some logical evaluation, while leaving God out of the picture that their theories become bogus and full of holes. I have no problem with the facts. It's man's interpretation of those facts that I have the problems with.

Scientists are biased from the beginning when they try to make evolution fit their premade conclusion. They have no other alternative theory so they consider it logical to make the facts fit their conclusion. That destroys the scientific process from the beginning. That eliminates proper evaluation and judgment. That's the type of logic that says chemicals produce emotions, rather than emotions producing chemicals. That's like saying chemicals are just sitting around and watching and waiting for the opportunity to produce an emotion exactly at the time when an emotion is needed. Those sure are amazingly smart chemicals aren't they. They're almost as smart as the chemicals that figured out how to make life exist and eventually produced the human being. If only we could tap into the mind of those chemicals and find the secrets of the universe. If only they could get down on our level and tell us what they know.

GoFish, you're a smart man. You are very intelligent. But intelligent people have often been wrong. I don't mean to make light of you, but I honestly don't see the point in criticizing others for their belief when it is compared to your own. If you choose to believe what you believe then that is your choice. However, I have no further reason to investigate science to know the answers of creation. I know that God exists because He has proven it in His interactions with me. I came to know Him through His word, and putting my trust in it. I honestly have no reason to doubt Him. There is no fact that contradicts the word of God and makes it void. It is only the interpretation of those facts or the interpretation of the word of God that we differ on.

I believe that you ignore the facts in order to make your case. There are no facts that I have to ignore to believe in God.

quote:

Originally posted by what4:

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:
I'm curious: Some Christians are more than willing to ignore science and even reality whenever it conflicts with their core religious beliefs. Is there any of you who would be willing to admit to this "subjective reality"?

I've never found one proven thing in science that contradicts God's word. It is only when scientists try to group the facts into some logical evaluation, while leaving God out of the picture that their theories become bogus and full of holes. I have no problem with the facts. It's man's interpretation of those facts that I have the problems with.

Scientists are biased from the beginning when they try to make evolution fit their premade conclusion. They have no other alternative theory so they consider it logical to make the facts fit their conclusion. That destroys the scientific process from the beginning. That eliminates proper evaluation and judgment. That's the type of logic that says chemicals produce emotions, rather than emotions producing chemicals. That's like saying chemicals are just sitting around and watching and waiting for the opportunity to produce an emotion exactly at the time when an emotion is needed. Those sure are amazingly smart chemicals aren't they. They're almost as smart as the chemicals that figured out how to make life exist and eventually produced the human being. If only we could tap into the mind of those chemicals and find the secrets of the universe. If only they could get down on our level and tell us what they know.

GoFish, you're a smart man. You are very intelligent. But intelligent people have often been wrong. I don't mean to make light of you, but I honestly don't see the point in criticizing others for their belief when it is compared to your own. If you choose to believe what you believe then that is your choice. However, I have no further reason to investigate science to know the answers of creation. I know that God exists because He has proven it in His interactions with me. I came to know Him through His word, and putting my trust in it. I honestly have no reason to doubt Him. There is no fact that contradicts the word of God and makes it void. It is only the interpretation of those facts or the interpretation of the word of God that we differ on.

I believe that you ignore the facts in order to make your case. There are no facts that I have to ignore to believe in God.

Amen Brother Wacko!! Right on!

quote:

Originally posted by Kindred:
My Heavenly Father would NEVER advocate someone being like you to be preaching to people.

Your "BRAND" of Christianity is NOT true Christianity, it is mere "LIP SERVICE" and now your own LIP SERVICE has gone over the edge!!!
[/color][/b]

Response by What4:
Be careful Kindred. When I made a statement similar to this, and maybe even a little milder, I was jumped on for judging!
QUOTE]

what4, read it all for yourself. I know Bill Gray came on here all Christian-like, but READ BACK over the posts where he has berated everyone who don't bow down at his feet. He DOES have an immense ego, and will not listen to a word anyone says but HIMSELF.

Call that "Judgemental" if you will, I prefer to call it OBSERVING and SEEING.

Every word on this forum belongs to Times Daily, not to be reprinted, but yet he stole a LOT of words here, copy/paste for his hidden agenda, and you say that is ok? Of course it isn't.

No, I am not judging, I AM JUST MAKING AN OBSERVATION THERE>

But about the things you say, you don't shove, you don't push, you don't try to cram it down people's throat, and I feel you have no hidden agenda except the Love of God. ANOTHER OBSERVATION. [/QUOTE]

___________________________________________________________________________________
Kindred, I'd like to explain my previous post. I was only referring to your above quotes concerning Bill’s Christianity. I was judged harshly for making a very similar statement concerning Vick. I had the right to make that statement and we all have a right and responsibility to judge a person's words and actions against their testimony. I'm not challenging your right to do so. Yet I have at many times destroyed making any impact or headway by my attitude. I don't have the right to judge your attitude because I have failed miserably. I just ask you to consider my opinion.

I’m not defending Bill. But it seems that at times people attempt to judge his heart as if they know his mind and intentions? All we have a right to judge is his words and address him concerning his actions, because that is all we know of him. I feel that he has sometimes received judgment with little mercy. I just encourage you to be sure and use mercy as much as possible in your judgments. That is as much for your sake as it is for Bill's. That is the only reason I approach you now. I don’t ask that you look the other way or not address your concerns. I would be speaking out of both sides of my mouth if I did that.

I consider you my sister in Christ and I appreciate what you have said to my defense. Very few are willing to give me their encouragement or support, and I honestly appreciate the fact that you have. I definitely do not place myself above you, but just offer you my humble opinion.

Together and in love we can make a difference.

God bless

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quote:

Scientists are biased from the beginning when they try to make evolution fit their premade conclusion. They have no other alternative theory so they consider it logical to make the facts fit their conclusion. That destroys the scientific process from the beginning. That eliminates proper evaluation and judgment.

Micah, you could just not be more wrong.

Scientists follow the evidence where it leads. They have no "bias" toward a theory from the beginning. If you have a better theory, provable, falsifiable, demonstrable, then let's see it.

You don't. Current information has no better model of biology than evolution. Every aspect of science supports it. It's a fact, and it's a given by now.

Proper evaluation and judgment has taken place, and it falls exclusively toward evolution. Let's hear your positive evidence toward an alternative theory. Give me the evidence. I'm listening.

DF

I think you are ALL, every last one of you, wonderfully unique individuals with different beliefs (and unbeliefs ) who obviously respect each other's opinions even though you disagree. You attempt to understand one another, which is just freakin' awesome.

Except in the case of Bill. As I recall, he received animosity & smart alect responses before he ever gave back some of what he was given. Whether or not I agree with that, it's a free country and we all have a right to express our opinions on here. Go right ahead...just a gentle reminder.

I think Bill contributes greatly to this forum and I would hate to see him leave. I don't have time to read all of his posts but others do & if it's a subject that points to an area in which God is dealing with me, I read the whole thing. As Bill knows, he and I disagree on how we relate to others and/or share Christ with others, but that's just one of those agree to disagree things.

He's stated repeatedly that he is not paid by that website where he spoke of TD forum. So there is no ulterior motive. The only intention I can see in his writing is a consistent pursuit of spreading the gospel. If you don't want to read his posts, skip them. I've done that with other members that got under my skin (Bill doesn't, btw).

Yes, he could use a little humble pie, but I could say that about many of us, including me. Bill is far from the only forum member to give condescending or smart aleck remarks (sorry Bill, I know you don't see them that way - agree to disagree? Please? ). JMHO

Oh yeah, and I think What4 and Micah are great. Show me a man who can admit a mistake and you've shown me a good man.

quote:

I have no further reason to investigate science to know the answers of creation. I know that God exists because He has proven it in His interactions with me. I came to know Him through His word, and putting my trust in it. I honestly have no reason to doubt Him. There is no fact that contradicts the word of God and makes it void. It is only the interpretation of those facts or the interpretation of the word of God that we differ on.

i will AMEN! what4 here, my beliefs exactly..i have no interest in science at all, thus no reason to debate any part of right or wrong about it..i'll just stand on the Word, and let it go at that..


and AMEN! to Joy!..
Bill. As I recall, he received animosity & smart alect responses before he ever gave back some of what he was given. Whether or not I agree with that, it's a free country and we all have a right to express our opinions....
I think Bill contributes greatly to this forum and I would hate to see him leave....
He's stated repeatedly that he is not paid by that website where he spoke of TD forum. So there is no ulterior motive. The only intention I can see in his writing is a consistent pursuit of spreading the gospel. If you don't want to read his posts, skip them. I've done that with other members that got under my skin (Bill doesn't, btw)....
and I think What4 and Micah are great. Show me a man who can admit a mistake and you've shown me a good man...

two thoughts of mine: i've hardly had to think of a word on my own tonight!..and, several are thinking like ME, and THAT should concern y'all, what 4 and Joy!

quote:

I won't give up, shut up, let up or slow up until I have stayed up, stored up, prayed up, paid up and spoken up for the cause of Christ. I'm a disciple of Jesus. I must go till He comes, give till I drop, preach till all know and work till He stops me. And when He comes for His own, He will have no problem recognizing me. My banner is clear:
I am a part of the "Fellowship of the Unashamed."

AMEN, brother Micah, AMEN!

Joy, the point that you missed though, whileas he's not paid to share the gospel (while using words from here WITHOUT permission), he is getting attention for it, from those who read it.

That's almost the same as getting paid, to some people.

I've not given Bill any animosity, before he gave it to me first. I'm not the type to sniff out and be a thorn in one's side for no reason whatsoever. I left it well enough alone the first go around and chocked it up to someone that is just a bit too full of themselves.

I wouldn't even be back on here, if I didn't know the legal ramifications that Bill could be inviting himself by taking things off of Times daily forums. While I've probably been a smart donkey at points, (usually when he's been one to me- gotta give him credit though, WHEN he is one, he writes it well enough that it's almost hidden) I've honestly been trying to help him see how wrong that is.

If this were on the website I admin for, and Bill came along, boasting and preaching, then taking our members words and put them somewhere else (verbatim) like he's done here, I'm positive that the owner of the site I help with would sue him in a heartbeat. It's not so much that he would have taken the words, but that he did so without written or expressed permission.

Anyone that does something like this without having the common courtesy to ask first, shows that they really don't care elsewise. They don't feel they should be obligated to ask before doing so, because they are using the words to "help people". Whileas that might be true, and the words that he publishes may very well help people, it doesn't excuse the fact that his message has become tainted. Tainted in that he had to pretty much steal the content to further whatever lesson he wanted to speak about, while riding the coattails of those who spoke those words.

That's my major problem with Bill. In a weeks time, I deal with a lot of people that have Egos like his. That I could get over. I could probably even ignore the fact that he talks as if everyone else is beneath him. Him in essence, stealing others' words to further his cause, I just can't look over. It taints his character to me, and I hope that he realizes that I'm most probably not the only one that feels that way.

Does that mean he's a bad man? Absolutely not. I've never and will never say that based on what little I have read of his. It does say that there is a basic character flaw though and that is the, "I am bigger, and better, and can do as I wish as long as I portray it under the guise of helping people." Perhaps he doesn't even realize he's doing it, as some people probably don't, so further letting him know, may be helpful to him.

I've not said he is an enemy, but there is definitely more to life than spending all your time on something like this. The fact that since he's been here, he's not tried to even post on any of the other posts to get to know anyone any better is something else I've noticed. If he wanted to be genuine, then I would assume that would be one of the first moves to make. We all have done that, in efforts to get to know one another on here, much the same way.

I admire you Joy, for being able to look past that though. I wish I could. I just almost have to say something when I see someone pulling what he does. It's not right to lead others on and then use them in that way. It might even make me look like a bad person, but I'm not.

I don't want him to get sued over doing something like this, and that is totally the reason behind me replying about it. He very well could be at any time if TD finds it is a copyright issue. I hope that my advice, even when sprinkled with sarcasm or facetiousness, has been listened to in regards to that.

~Amanda

quote:

Originally posted by Taciturn:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Micah_Eaton:
you proved my point

WHO proved your point???? Are we supposed to know who & what point you're talking about?

let me guess at this one tac....not trying to speak FOR micah, but i THINK micah was referring to your long post on pg 110, and comparing some of your answers to the
'smiley face' you posted after GoFish called him a 'creationist wacko', in which appears that you are in agreement with the name calling....
tho i might be totally wrong, correct me micah if i am....

Manda...No, I didn't miss that at all. I respectfully disagree and stand by what I said. I think sometimes we blow things up bigger than they actually are. I've been on the receiving end of someone making assumptions about my intentions as well as on the delivering end making my own assumptions. It's not pretty from either direction. Without the gift of peering inside someone else's head, it's just a guess.

I don't think you were posting towards the beginning of this thread. This has been going on for about 3 1/2 months. Can you believe that? Crazy!

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:

quote:

Scientists are biased from the beginning when they try to make evolution fit their premade conclusion. They have no other alternative theory so they consider it logical to make the facts fit their conclusion. That destroys the scientific process from the beginning. That eliminates proper evaluation and judgment.

??? That confused me! I could just not be more wrong? is that a CA thing?

Micah, you could just not be more wrong.

Scientists follow the evidence where it leads. They have no "bias" toward a theory from the beginning. If you have a better theory, provable, falsifiable, demonstrable, then let's see it.

You don't. Current information has no better model of biology than evolution. Every aspect of science supports it. It's a fact, and it's a given by now.

Proper evaluation and judgment has taken place, and it falls exclusively toward evolution. Let's hear your positive evidence toward an alternative theory. Give me the evidence. I'm listening.

DF

The problem is that you have your theory and you want me to prove you wrong. I can take The Bible (which I know you already read Moses's account of creation) and show you where it says it. I can lead you in a prayer to confess your sins and declare Jesus as your savior, and study with you it'll you know in your heart that God created Heaven and Earth. As for showing you proof, I'm just a simple man, I didn't go to college, I'm not smarter than anyone else! If you cant see God in His Work than I guess if you want proof then you will have to wait until Judgement Day and see for yourself. I hate to be like that, but I dont know what else to tell you!

Micah

Yep, I did post on here around the first of the thread. I can't remember exactly which page I came in on, but pretty much was lambasted then for my opinion, and graciously bowed out.

It may be a small thing to you, and might even be small to Bill, but it's a big thing and very dishonest of someone to do what Bill has done. I'm not making assumptions there, he did that.

I respect however, that you disagree. I don't mind that at all.

I've been on the receiving end here, with others assuming they knew what I meant, or read me wrong, it happens all the time. And oh man, I can't even count the times I've been on the receiving end as an admin. It's gnarly and not in a good way.

I do have to mention though, that I'm pretty decent at gauging people and what they write. I don't say that to brag, but because I've spent 7 years almost of my life having to read every single thing posted on the site I admin for. You pick up a flare for noticing the underhandedness or sly insults when you spend so much time reading things from people. It's annoying sometimes that I can see the underhanded insult, when no one else can, even if it's not directed at me. My admin part of me always wants to speak up and say something.

Perhaps that is coming out here, I don't know, but I do know at least I'm not alone in the way that I've perceived things here. I'm sure if Bill would go back and read some of what I've written he too, may see where I'm coming from. Many times, things said in the moment, isn't always comprehended right off, either depending on mindset. Perhaps he and others may also see that at least half the time I've answered in Jest, not to make fun of, but to make light of some of these discussions.

Either way, I too agree that this is a long flippin' post to answer a simple question. xD

~Amanda

Thanks Joy and Hippie! Mandy, Has Bill used your words?

Micah, Please don't call me Mandy. I won't fault you for that, but I really don't like being called that for very personal reasons.

Other than that, no he hasn't. But then again, I haven't checked. He has used other people's on here, without permission. Even you said earlier on that you would have rather been asked first, so you probably do see where I am coming from at least on that point.

Also, earlier, when you got all ill sounding towards me, I wasn't insulting you. That's why I didn't answer it to because I knew you misunderstood what I said. I didn't say anything against you, but used insinuating when I probably should have used the word "said".

Sorry about that.

~Amanda

quote:

Originally posted by Micah_Eaton:

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:

quote:

Scientists are biased from the beginning when they try to make evolution fit their premade conclusion. They have no other alternative theory so they consider it logical to make the facts fit their conclusion. That destroys the scientific process from the beginning. That eliminates proper evaluation and judgment.

??? That confused me! I could just not be more wrong? is that a CA thing?

Micah, you could just not be more wrong.

Scientists follow the evidence where it leads. They have no "bias" toward a theory from the beginning. If you have a better theory, provable, falsifiable, demonstrable, then let's see it.

You don't. Current information has no better model of biology than evolution. Every aspect of science supports it. It's a fact, and it's a given by now.

Proper evaluation and judgment has taken place, and it falls exclusively toward evolution. Let's hear your positive evidence toward an alternative theory. Give me the evidence. I'm listening.

DF

The problem is that you have your theory and you want me to prove you wrong. I can take The Bible (which I know you already read Moses's account of creation) and show you where it says it. I can lead you in a prayer to confess your sins and declare Jesus as your savior, and study with you it'll you know in your heart that God created Heaven and Earth. As for showing you proof, I'm just a simple man, I didn't go to college, I'm not smarter than anyone else! If you cant see God in His Work than I guess if you want proof then you will have to wait until Judgement Day and see for yourself. I hate to be like that, but I dont know what else to tell you!

Micah

To which creation story in Genesis are you referring? Chap 1 or chap 2?

I have been looking back over the post that were made to you from Bill, do you think that it might have been preceived by you that he was being snide? I didn't see it. It could be that you were preceiving it?
Micah