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Who Is To Blame - God Or You?

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi to all my Forum Friends,

In the discussion which I began titled "Using 'OMG' And The 'F Word On Public Forums" -- our Forum Friend, HoldenMyOwn, told me, "Mr. Gray, Assuming you believe in the Bible... Your Bible states numerous times that I do not deserve to live and that I will burn in hell for all eternity. I say "OMG." And you say that "I" am the one that is being disrespectful? Does that honestly make sense to you?"

Holden, if the city, county, or state where you live has a law which says that driving 90 mph through a school zone is against their law -- and you do it anyway; who is to blame -- them for having and enforcing the law -- or you for breaking that law?

In the Old Testament, God gave the people of Israel certain laws -- and He gave them the punishment for breaking those laws. If a person still broke His laws; who is to blame for that person being punished -- God or that person?

God gave the Israelites the Ten Commandments and His Laws expanding upon those commandments. He knew that no one would be able to keep all of His commandments all the time. Why could they not keep those commandments? Because, when Adam fell into sin by disobeying God, from that moment on -- Adam and all his descendants have a sin nature. Man, by his very nature, is sinful.

But, on the other hand, God being a loving God and wanting all people to come to repentance, gave man a means of atoning for his sins, i.e., atonement for breaking the Law. He gave them animal sacrifices they could do to atone for their sins. These animal sacrifices were the precursor for the real "Once For All" Sacrifice which was to come -- Jesus Christ.

The Old Testament Jews had to keep offering animal sacrifices, over and over, to continually atone for their sins. When Jesus Christ came, He became the final Sacrifice, once for all. He was the Perfect Sacrifice -- and, in that respect, the Law had been fulfilled.

Once the Law had been fulfilled in Jesus Christ; He brought us into the dispensation of Grace, the era or period of Grace. We read in John 1:17, "For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."

So, from the time Israel was given the Law at Mount Sinai, until the Day of Pentecost, the world was in the Biblical Dispensation of the Law and needed continual sacrifices to atone for their sins. On the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) the Christian church, the body of believers, began with the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the 120 disciples in the Upper Room.

And, this was the initiation of the Dispensation of Grace. We will be in the Dispensation, or Period, of Grace until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ at the end of the seven year Tribulation. At this time, He will establish His Millennial Kingdom and thus begins the Kingdom Age, the kingdom of God on earth.

Now that Jesus Christ has brought us into the Dispensation of Grace -- by the Grace of God, through FAITH in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- every person has an opportunity to be forgiven and to receive His "free gift" of salvation, eternal life in Christ.

So, Holden, when you tell me, "Your Bible states numerous times that I do not deserve to live and that I will burn in hell for all eternity."

No, the Bible tells us that if you continue to reject the "free gift" of salvation, which has already been purchased and "paid in full" by Jesus Christ on the cross -- YOU are condemning yourself to burn in hell for eternity.

Up until your last breath in your mortal body -- you can repent, i.e., turn from following the world and turn to following Jesus Christ. Once you have breathed that last breath in your mortal -- your eternal destination is set in concrete. At that point, absolutely nothing can change your eternal home.

If, before you die, you do repent and receive Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior -- you will spend eternity in the glorious presence of God the Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and all of your loved ones and friends who have died as believers.

If, when you die, you have not received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior -- you will spend eternity in the horrific, evil presence of Satan, eternity in hell.

The ONLY unforgivable sin is to die without having Jesus Christ in your heart, without a saving relationship with Him.

Up until that last breath -- there is always a chance to repent and follow Jesus Christ. But, the danger of waiting that long -- is that none of us know when that last breath will occur. We could be in the best of health one minute -- and dead the next.

When I was 25, I worked of Ramo Wooldridge (early version of TRW). One Friday we had a party and I became good friends with one of our programmers, a guy my age. He was excited because he was getting married the next week. His parents were out from the Mid West and all things were "Go" for their wedding. Sunday morning his parents went to his apartment and found him dead. He had died of a heart attack in his sleep. Absolutely no indication of any problems before.

Several years later, I worked for Scientific Data Systems in Santa Monica. One Monday morning I went to the tool room to get some new tools -- and the young man who worked there, 21 years old, was not in the tool cage. I was told that he had died of a heart attack over the weekend. Once again, no indication of any problems -- until they found him dead -- at 21 years old.

None of us have a guaranty of that next breath. So, Holden, and all of my Forum Friends who are not yet Christian believers -- do not gamble that you will always have more time. There is no guaranty. The only promise, the only guaranty, you have is: If you die as a believer, you WILL spend eternity with God -- and, if you die as a non-believer, you WILL spend eternity with Satan in hell.

So, why gamble with something so important? Take that "sure bet" and get right with God -- right now -- while there is still time.

Is this a "hell-fire and darnation" sermon? No, my Friends, just the truth -- shared in love. I want so much to meet you in heaven one day. Please do not disappoint me.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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JankinonyaJankinonyaOld Faithful
Oh I love this one.

Its where your god, offers people the same kind of choice a burgular with a gun to your head would give you. "Do exactly what I tell you to do or I will kill you." Who doesn't think that's a fair deal? Its almost like an offer you can't refuse.

The love of a father? I don't think so, well not a very good father anyway.

Who knows the odds might not be in my favor in the end but I am still going to place my bet on there not being a hell.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Oh I love this one.

Its where your god, offers people the same kind of choice a burgular with a gun to your head would give you. "Do exactly what I tell you to do or I will kill you." Who doesn't think that's a fair deal? Its almost like an offer you can't refuse.

The love of a father? I don't think so, well not a very good father anyway.

Who knows the odds might not be in my favor in the end but I am still going to place my bet on there not being a hell.

THAT, MY FRIEND, IS WHAT THEY CALL A "SUCKER BET"!

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
My odds are still better than yours and I don't even believe in god, heaven or hell.

Hi Jan,

I KNOW that I will spend eternity in the presence of God.

Do you KNOW where you will spend eternity -- and in whose presence? You can. You really can -- if you will stop running from God and start walking toward Him.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Road PuppyRoad PuppyOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to all my Forum Friends,

In the discussion which I began titled "Using 'OMG' And The 'F Word On Public Forums" -- our Forum Friend, HoldenMyOwn, told me, "Mr. Gray, Assuming you believe in the Bible... Your Bible states numerous times that I do not deserve to live and that I will burn in hell for all eternity. I say "OMG." And you say that "I" am the one that is being disrespectful? Does that honestly make sense to you?"

Holden, if the city, county, or state where you live has a law which says that driving 90 mph through a school zone is against their law -- and you do it anyway; who is to blame -- them for having and enforcing the law -- or you for breaking that law?

In the Old Testament, God gave the people of Israel certain laws -- and He gave them the punishment for breaking those laws. If a person still broke His laws; who is to blame for that person being punished -- God or that person?

God gave the Israelites the Ten Commandments and His Laws expanding upon those commandments. He knew that no one would be able to keep all of His commandments all the time. Why could they not keep those commandments? Because, when Adam fell into sin by disobeying God, from that moment on -- Adam and all his descendants have a sin nature. Man, by his very nature, is sinful.

But, on the other hand, God being a loving God and wanting all people to come to repentance, gave man a means of atoning for his sins, i.e., atonement for breaking the Law. He gave them animal sacrifices they could do to atone for their sins. These animal sacrifices were the precursor for the real "Once For All" Sacrifice which was to come -- Jesus Christ.

The Old Testament Jews had to keep offering animal sacrifices, over and over, to continually atone for their sins. When Jesus Christ came, He became the final Sacrifice, once for all. He was the Perfect Sacrifice -- and, in that respect, the Law had been fulfilled.

Once the Law had been fulfilled in Jesus Christ; He brought us into the dispensation of Grace, the era or period of Grace. We read in John 1:17, "For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."

So, from the time Israel was given the Law at Mount Sinai, until the Day of Pentecost, the world was in the Biblical Dispensation of the Law and needed continual sacrifices to atone for their sins. On the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) the Christian church, the body of believers, began with the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the 120 disciples in the Upper Room.

And, this was the initiation of the Dispensation of Grace. We will be in the Dispensation, or Period, of Grace until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ at the end of the seven year Tribulation. At this time, He will establish His Millennial Kingdom and thus begins the Kingdom Age, the kingdom of God on earth.

Now that Jesus Christ has brought us into the Dispensation of Grace -- by the Grace of God, through FAITH in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- every person has an opportunity to be forgiven and to receive His "free gift" of salvation, eternal life in Christ.

So, Holden, when you tell me, "Your Bible states numerous times that I do not deserve to live and that I will burn in hell for all eternity."

No, the Bible tells us that if you continue to reject the "free gift" of salvation, which has already been purchased and "paid in full" by Jesus Christ on the cross -- YOU are condemning yourself to burn in hell for eternity.

Up until your last breath in your mortal body -- you can repent, i.e., turn from following the world and turn to following Jesus Christ. Once you have breathed that last breath in your mortal -- your eternal destination is set in concrete. At that point, absolutely nothing can change your eternal home.

If, before you die, you do repent and receive Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior -- you will spend eternity in the glorious presence of God the Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and all of your loved ones and friends who have died as believers.

If, when you die, you have not received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior -- you will spend eternity in the horrific, evil presence of Satan, eternity in hell.

The ONLY unforgivable sin is to die without having Jesus Christ in your heart, without a saving relationship with Him.

Up until that last breath -- there is always a chance to repent and follow Jesus Christ. But, the danger of waiting that long -- is that none of us know when that last breath will occur. We could be in the best of health one minute -- and dead the next.

When I was 25, I worked of Ramo Wooldridge (early version of TRW). One Friday we had a party and I became good friends with one of our programmers, a guy my age. He was excited because he was getting married the next week. His parents were out from the Mid West and all things were "Go" for their wedding. Sunday morning his parents went to his apartment and found him dead. He had died of a heart attack in his sleep. Absolutely no indication of any problems before.

Several years later, I worked for Scientific Data Systems in Santa Monica. One Monday morning I went to the tool room to get some new tools -- and the young man who worked there, 21 years old, was not in the tool cage. I was told that he had died of a heart attack over the weekend. Once again, no indication of any problems -- until they found him dead -- at 21 years old.

None of us have a guaranty of that next breath. So, Holden, and all of my Forum Friends who are not yet Christian believers -- do not gamble that you will always have more time. There is no guaranty. The only promise, the only guaranty, you have is: If you die as a believer, you WILL spend eternity with God -- and, if you die as a non-believer, you WILL spend eternity with Satan in hell.

So, why gamble with something so important? Take that "sure bet" and get right with God -- right now -- while there is still time.

Is this a "hell-fire and darnation" sermon? No, my Friends, just the truth -- shared in love. I want so much to meet you in heaven one day. Please do not disappoint me.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill




Lighten up, Francis.......
thenagelthenagelPost Master
he calls us friend because he thinks if he keeps saying it enough it'll be true.


see.. this is another issue that makes me doubt the accuracy of the bible.

it just doesn't make sense.

LOVE ME!!!

Or suffer for eternity.

but god is benevolent.

yeah.

sorry bill. you can take your god and shove him up your butt.

God will break your soul and set fire to it while you watch for all of the hate and lies you spread in his name. christ will rip out your eyes and wizz in your empty skull.

people liek you are why the word ' godforsaken' was coined.
from your words of evil and false doctrine and twisted scriptual interpretation it is clear that you have been forsaken by God, and you are tryign to lead others away form His light in a petty attempt at vengence.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi Nagel,

I truly am sorry that you are so miserable inside. Maybe, if you stopped blasting God long enough to read and hear His Word -- you could find peace with God within yourself.

It is really sad to see how you rant against God and all who believe in God. Yes, I truly do feel sorry for you -- and pray for your spiritual healing.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Nagel,

I truly am sorry that you are so miserable inside. Maybe, if you stopped blasting God long enough to read and hear His Word -- you could find peace with God within yourself.

It is really sad to see how you rant against God and all who believe in God. Yes, I truly do feel sorry for you -- and pray for your spiritual healing.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
I know you directed your comments to someone else, but I just have to ask, who are you to judge anyone as being "miserable inside" and in need of spiritual healing? I could write a book on things a Christian should keep to himself/herself, and calling someone names, or saying they're unfulfilled, unhappy or whatever because they don't believe as you do is one of them. As far as praying "for" someone, I think unless they ask you to do so it's a waste of time. When someone like you says they'll pray for me, I tell them while they're at it to tell Santa I'm still looking for that pony, and tell the Easter Bunny I like the coconut filled chocolate eggs.
Not Shallow Not SlimNot Shallow Not SlimOld Faithful
Jennifer,

Of course, you have it exactly right.

Gray is in no position to determine who is miserable or joyous inside.

I submit that he's miserable inside because he has to stretch and bend and manipulate common human intelligence to pretend to believe the absurd BS he presents here. But that's only a speculation based on the common psychological phenomenon called "externalizing".

Seems to fit, however. As regards spiritual healing, I'm sure you and I are much closer to perfect spiritual health than You Know Who.


nsns
JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
Jennifer,

Of course, you have it exactly right.

Gray is in no position to determine who is miserable or joyous inside.

I submit that he's miserable inside because he has to stretch and bend and manipulate common human intelligence to pretend to believe the absurd BS he presents here. But that's only a speculation based on the common psychological phenomenon called "externalizing".

Seems to fit, however. As regards spiritual healing, I'm sure you and I are much closer to perfect spiritual health than You Know Who.


nsns
I wonder how someone "being good" out of fear is actually "being good". Know what I mean? I try to do the right thing because it feels right and I feel better about myself when I do, not because I'm afraid. How sincere are a person's "good deeds" if they're done out of fear or because they think they'll earn a reward after death?
thenagelthenagelPost Master
Heh..

acctually bill, i'm just fine.

if i were you i'd be more concerned with the state of my own soul than someone elses.

regardless of anything else, no one is going to ever ask me to justify telling lies useing gods name and twisted the scripture to mean things it was never intended to.

Jennifer.. Bill is pretty much the worst case scenerio of a fundementalist.

fortunatly for the rest of us, they are an incresingly rare creature..

with every generation, there are less and less.. and more and more rational thinking believers.

maybe one day a christian and an athiest cna stand side by side and agree on everything except that one little thing.

maybe one day there won't be people trying to control whatever one else thinks and pretending that God told them too.

evntually bill will be no more than dust in the grave, and the rational thinking believers will move one more step closer to God instead of being held back by the fear and hate that people like bill vomit forth.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Nagel,

I truly am sorry that you are so miserable inside. Maybe, if you stopped blasting God long enough to read and hear His Word -- you could find peace with God within yourself.

It is really sad to see how you rant against God and all who believe in God. Yes, I truly do feel sorry for you -- and pray for your spiritual healing.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

I know you directed your comments to someone else, but I just have to ask, who are you to judge anyone as being "miserable inside" and in need of spiritual healing? I could write a book on things a Christian should keep to himself/herself, and calling someone names, or saying they're unfulfilled, unhappy or whatever because they don't believe as you do is one of them. As far as praying "for" someone, I think unless they ask you to do so it's a waste of time. When someone like you says they'll pray for me, I tell them while they're at it to tell Santa I'm still looking for that pony, and tell the Easter Bunny I like the coconut filled chocolate eggs.

Hi Jennifer,

Just read Nagel's last post and it is obvious why I came to that conclusion. He rants against God; he rants against Christians; basically, he rants against everything.

And, my suggestion is that, just maybe, if he would draw close to God -- he would be a happier person, without all the hatred of God which spews from all his posts.

Could I be wrong? I pray that I am. However, when a person seems to hate "everything God" -- one has to wonder where this hatred comes from. And, the only logical explanation is that it comes from inside him.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Everlasting Godstopper:
Perhaps he simply hates god's appointed messenger here in this forum?

....well that's not fair. Nagel doesn't seem to be the hating type but some people here being (sic) out the worst in even the nicest peeps.

HE SEEMS HAPPY WITH MESSENGERS FROM THE DARK SIDE - HE HAS NOT SLAMMED YOU OR DEEP!

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thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Nagel,

I truly am sorry that you are so miserable inside. Maybe, if you stopped blasting God long enough to read and hear His Word -- you could find peace with God within yourself.

It is really sad to see how you rant against God and all who believe in God. Yes, I truly do feel sorry for you -- and pray for your spiritual healing.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

I know you directed your comments to someone else, but I just have to ask, who are you to judge anyone as being "miserable inside" and in need of spiritual healing? I could write a book on things a Christian should keep to himself/herself, and calling someone names, or saying they're unfulfilled, unhappy or whatever because they don't believe as you do is one of them. As far as praying "for" someone, I think unless they ask you to do so it's a waste of time. When someone like you says they'll pray for me, I tell them while they're at it to tell Santa I'm still looking for that pony, and tell the Easter Bunny I like the coconut filled chocolate eggs.

Hi Jennifer,

Just read Nagel's last post and it is obvious why I came to that conclusion. He rants against God; he rants against Christians; basically, he rants against everything.

And, my suggestion is that, just maybe, if he would draw close to God -- he would be a happier person, without all the hatred of God which spews from all his posts.

Could I be wrong? I pray that I am. However, when a person seems to hate "everything God" -- one has to wonder where this hatred comes from. And, the only logical explanation is that it comes from inside him.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


no bill.. i rant against you, people like you, liars, hatemongers and false prophets.

i rant against people who teach intolerance while trying to claim they speak with the love of Jesus.

i rant against people who caim to know the truth, the whole truth and the only version of he truth and all others are following false interpreataions of the the bible.

i rant against people who are shown the proof they demand, and then deny what it is.

i rant against people who use the name of god to make thems selves look and feel important.

i don't rant against christians, bill.

i rant against YOU.

i have no hatred of god, and it's childish and petty for you to even suggest it.

it tells me that you are desperate to take the focus away form your lies and underhanded behavior and point at me saying ' nu uh! look, Nagel hates god! "

just one more lie on your part.

the only thing i hate, bill, is your behavior.

not you personally. i don't knwo you personally.. but i can promise you, were you my child and behaved like this, you'd never see he light of day except for school and chores. you wouldn't be allowed out in public until you were able to display some manners and civilized behavior, because at this time, you act like an over privledged obnoxious spoiled brat who needs a good taste of the belt.

it's why i keep refering to you as senile.
one upon a time, senile dementia was refered to as ' a second child hood'.

and that's how you strike me.. a little petty spoiled brat in desperate need of getting his hide tanned.
JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
And, my suggestion is that, just maybe, if he would draw close to God -- he would be a happier person, without all the hatred of God which spews from all his posts.

Bill, if someone doesn't believe it's impossible to draw closer to your God. Don't you understand that? And after a while even the most mild mannered person will get tired of being told they need to get to know "God". That's when you become a pest and they respond. And once again you say he'd be happier. Why do you think people that don't believe in your God are unhappy? I'm so happy most of the time that people think I'm up to something.
thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
no bill.. i rant against you, people like you, liars, hatemongers and false prophets.

IN OTHER WORDS, THOSE WHO SHARE THE WORD OF GOD!



Soooo...

by your words.. the people who share the word of God are liars, false prophets and hatemongers?

wow.. and i didnt' even have to stoop to your tricks and pretend you said something you didn't...because you said it, rihg there.. for everyone to see.

the truth, from bill at last. spreading the word of gods makes you a liar.

i guess that finally answers whther bill is working for satan or not...

and i see our answer is yes.
thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Everlasting Godstopper:
Perhaps he simply hates god's appointed messenger here in this forum?

....well that's not fair. Nagel doesn't seem to be the hating type but some people here being (sic) out the worst in even the nicest peeps.

HE SEEMS HAPPY WITH MESSENGERS FROM THE DARK SIDE - HE HAS NOT SLAMMED YOU OR DEEP!


i haven't had a reason to ...

i've been treated politly and respectfully by them.. even when we disagree.

there were a few posts i made a few days ago.. as deep and i were getting to know each other... and yes, i did edge toward attack mode... until i understood that his intent and his point wasn't an attack on me...

it happens when new people are feeling each other out, getting who how how each other write...

you, however, attack .. always.. regadless.. attack attack attack...

even when the discussion doesn't involve you at all, you drop in a little one liner and a stupid cartoon, just to add a little insult...

you seem to think you are a self appointed pit bull for jesus, and your first reactoin is to pounce regardless of the topic at hand...

new people will wander in and you pounce DO YOU KNOW JESUS?!?!? i mean really know him.. not liek you think you know him but a deep personal relationship with him?

why don't you wait? if /when someone wants to share that, they will. it's none of your flippin business.. and no one elected you offical Forum Monitor to jump on people and get their personal history as they come in.

i don't slam them, Bill, because they don't slam me.

turn about is fair play.

i don't hate you. i hate the things you do, and the way you do things. i hate that you assume you are better than the rest of us.

you aren't. are aren't even the most interesting of us. you certainly aren't the most significant, and you absoloutly arent' the one and only source of The Truth of God.
A. RobustusA. RobustusPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
...maybe one day a christian and an athiest cna stand side by side and agree on everything except that one little thing...


Rejoice thenagel, for that day is up us! (has been for a while actually)
I have Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, Sikh, Unitarian, Wiccan, agnostic and other friends who are similar and agreeable to me in most every way except when it comes to their spiritual belief and it's not an issue at all in our relationships. In fact it's just like that in many multicultural communities for the majority of the residents. It's just not a big deal! I'm sure it's like that with many folks here in the South and the Shoals as well. I could see myself getting along famously in real life with many of the believers here on the forum.
thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by A. Robustus:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
...maybe one day a christian and an athiest cna stand side by side and agree on everything except that one little thing...


Rejoice thenagel, for that day is up us! (has been for a while actually)
I have Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, Sikh, Unitarian, Wiccan, agnostic and other friends who are similar and agreeable to me in most every way except when it comes to their spiritual belief and it's not an issue at all in our relationships. In fact it's just like that in many multicultural communities for the majority of the residents. It's just not a big deal! I'm sure it's like that with many folks here in the South and the Shoals as well. I could see myself getting along famously in real life with many of the believers here on the forum.


indeed.

the only people i have trouble getting along with are fundementalists, extremists, and idiots.
but there i go, repeating myself again....
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
And, my suggestion is that, just maybe, if he would draw close to God -- he would be a happier person, without all the hatred of God which spews from all his posts.

Bill, if someone doesn't believe, it's impossible to draw closer to your God. Don't you understand that? And after a while even the most mild mannered person will get tired of being told they need to get to know "God." That's when you become a pest and they respond. And once again you say he'd be happier. Why do you think people that don't believe in your God are unhappy? I'm so happy most of the time that people think I'm up to something.

Hi Jennifer,

First, He is not "my God." He is everyone's God. It is just that there are folks who would rather be orphans -- instead of being children of God. He has opened the door and invited everyone to be part of the Family of God. But, many, apparently like yourself, want to refuse. Some day, I pray that you will stop fighting against the tide -- and become my sister in Christ.

If you will take another look at our post -- you will see that I purposely did not say "draw closer to God" for the reason you have given. A person must be close to God, to draw closer. Yet, a person who does not know God -- can draw close to God. He/she does this by seeking God.

You tell me, "I'm so happy most of the time that people think I'm up to something."

Yes, Jennifer, most of my life folks always thought of me as a very happy person -- and, I saw myself this way. Yet, I did not know what true happiness was until I invited Jesus Christ into my life. I can recall a Friend, about twenty years ago when I first began to go to Bible studies. He told me, "I used to think going to parties, bars, and night clubs were the way to have a fun Friday night. But, since I have become a Christian and spend my Fridays at Bible study -- I have so much more fun." And, I have to agree with him.

About ten years ago, my wife and I went to a New Eve Watch Service with our son and daughter-in-law. This is where we all gather at our church or in someone's home, have fellowship, food, games -- just have good Christian fun. And, we all ring in the New Year together. As we were driving home, I told them, "This was the most fun I believe I have ever had on New Years Eve. And, the beauty of it is that tomorrow morning I will not be hung over -- except from all the good food."

That, Jennifer, is the joy of being a Christian believer -- and being in fellowship with Christian believers. There is no hatred to spew out; there is no animosity to leak out -- there is Christian love, even for those with whom we disagree.

This I do not see in Nagel's writings.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
And, my suggestion is that, just maybe, if he would draw close to God -- he would be a happier person, without all the hatred of God which spews from all his posts.

Bill, if someone doesn't believe, it's impossible to draw closer to your God. Don't you understand that? And after a while even the most mild mannered person will get tired of being told they need to get to know "God." That's when you become a pest and they respond. And once again you say he'd be happier. Why do you think people that don't believe in your God are unhappy? I'm so happy most of the time that people think I'm up to something.

Hi Jennifer,

First, He is not "my God." He is everyone's God. It is just that there are folks who would rather be orphans -- instead of being children of God. He has opened the door and invited everyone to be part of the Family of God. But, many, apparently like yourself, want to refuse. Some day, I pray that you will stop fighting against the tide -- and become my sister in Christ.

If you will take another look at our post -- you will see that I purposely did not say "draw closer to God" for the reason you have given. A person must be close to God, to draw closer. Yet, a person who does not know God -- can draw close to God. He/she does this by seeking God.

You tell me, "I'm so happy most of the time that people think I'm up to something."

Yes, Jennifer, most of my life folks always thought of me as a very happy person -- and, I saw myself this way. Yet, I did not know what true happiness was until I invited Jesus Christ into my life. I can recall a Friend, about twenty years ago when I first began to go to Bible studies. He told me, "I used to think going to parties, bars, and night clubs were the way to have a fun Friday night. But, since I have become a Christian and spend my Fridays at Bible study -- I have so much more fun." And, I have to agree with him.

About ten years ago, my wife and I went to a New Eve Watch Service with our son and daughter-in-law. This is where we all gather at our church or in someone's home, have fellowship, food, games -- just have good Christian fun. And, we all ring in the New Year together. As we were driving home, I told them, "This was the most fun I believe I have ever had on New Years Eve. And, the beauty of it is that tomorrow morning I will not be hung over -- except from all the good food."

That, Jennifer, is the joy of being a Christian believer -- and being in fellowship with Christian believers. There is no hatred to spew out; there is no animosity to leak out -- there is Christian love, even for those with whom we disagree.

This I do not see in Nagel's writings.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
This is another blind spot I see in you. Non-believers don't necessarily drink or "party". I don't, nor do my friends. I might have two drinks a year, and I said might. You're no different than anyone else, no more pious or rightous. When we gather with friends we love to eat, play games, talk and socialize, and we don't need alcohol to have fun. The weakest drink there is hot tea, the strongest Coke Zero. Again you try to insist that non-believers are all heathens. I don't have friends that drink to any excess at all, and most don't drink anything alcoholic. I know people that drink, and I do mean to excess, and one of those would be a so called "Christian". He also cheats on his wife, but it's ok I guess, he does go to church every time the door is open. Pretending I believe in God, and it would be pretending, wouldn't make me happy. I'd be like a lot of other people that have to pretend to believe or people like you would look "down on them." If you are truly happier believing that's fine. I don't need that crutch. And unlike you I don't "judge" people based on the fact they believe or don't believe. I take every person as they are, and I don't try to change them or tell them they're missing something in life.
PR Peter RiellyPost Master
Let me see if I can difuse some of this...

Someone stated... God loves you, but if you don't love Him back you go to hell. then sarcastically stated "Yeah, that makes sense". Well, the reason it doesn't make sense to you is because either haven't read, or you don't understand the Bible. God is perfection, and unless we are perfection we can't be in His presence. That is Hell....Will it literally be hot? Who knows... could be freezing... but that's all semantics anyway... Hell is simple, eternal separation from God. We as humans CANNOT work our way into perfection. Only the sacrifice of Jesus' can wash us into that state of perfection needed to be in the presence of God. Grasping that any better?

Jennifer, you stated "I wonder how someone "being good" out of fear is actually 'being good'.... Once again... that's not the point. That is why kids stop acting like idiots when their parents tan their hides for doing so. No... When one truely accepts Jesus as their saviour, they aren't fearful of anything. They genuinely desire to be moral in God's eyes. Mistakes will still come, but the lifestyle they choose will be noticeably different.

and thenagel... Uh... you do know there is an ignore option if you hate Bill so much right??? LOL

And lastly... drop the freakin "judging" crap!!! Bad behavior is bad behavior, immorality is immorality... Pointing out bad behavior and immorality is not judging... it's simple stating the obvious... For Pete's sake I'm sick of people saying that ignorant garbage.

COMMON SENSE FOLKS!! If you don't believe, don't read stuff posted in the religion section!! I mean for cryin out loud...There are a ton of thing I don't believe in, but I'm not so obsessed with those non-existent things that I waste my valuable time trying to evangelize to folks about my DISBELIEF in something. That's silliness to the enth degree!!

"Sasquatch is not real i tell you.. NOT REAL... YOU ALL ARE IDIOTS!!! ONLY I, AND FOLKS WHO THINK LIKE ME ARE ACTUALLY INTELLIGENT!!! STOP THINKING SASQUATCH IS REAL!!! STOP TELLING PEOPLE THAT SASQUATCH IS REAL!! YOU LIARS!! YOU ARE FILLING FOLKS BRAINS WITH SILLINESS!! I HATE PEOPLE LIKE YOU, SPREADING FOOLISHNESS THAT THERE IS A SASQUATCH!!!"

See my point?? If you truely think God is a figmant of one's imagination like I believe of sasquatch... why rant about it all the time?? I know I'd feel like a moron for going to sasquacth forums and posting that tirade I just put up there. Wink
JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
Let me see if I can difuse some of this...

Someone stated... God loves you, but if you don't love Him back you go to hell. then sarcastically stated "Yeah, that makes sense". Well, the reason it doesn't make sense to you is because either haven't read, or you don't understand the Bible. God is perfection, and unless we are perfection we can't be in His presence. That is Hell....Will it literally be hot? Who knows... could be freezing... but that's all semantics anyway... Hell is simple, eternal separation from God. We as humans CANNOT work our way into perfection. Only the sacrifice of Jesus' can wash us into that state of perfection needed to be in the presence of God. Grasping that any better?

Jennifer, you stated "I wonder how someone "being good" out of fear is actually 'being good'.... Once again... that's not the point. That is why kids stop acting like idiots when their parents tan their hides for doing so. No... When one truely accepts Jesus as their saviour, they aren't fearful of anything. They genuinely desire to be moral in God's eyes. Mistakes will still come, but the lifestyle they choose will be noticeably different.

and thenagel... Uh... you do know there is an ignore option if you hate Bill so much right??? LOL

And lastly... drop the freakin "judging" crap!!! Bad behavior is bad behavior, immorality is immorality... Pointing out bad behavior and immorality is not judging... it's simple stating the obvious... For Pete's sake I'm sick of people saying that ignorant garbage.

COMMON SENSE FOLKS!! If you don't believe, don't read stuff posted in the religion section!! I mean for cryin out loud...There are a ton of thing I don't believe in, but I'm not so obsessed with those non-existent things that I waste my valuable time trying to evangelize to folks about my DISBELIEF in something. That's silliness to the enth degree!!

"Sasquatch is not real i tell you.. NOT REAL... YOU ALL ARE IDIOTS!!! ONLY I, AND FOLKS WHO THINK LIKE ME ARE ACTUALLY INTELLIGENT!!! STOP THINKING SASQUATCH IS REAL!!! STOP TELLING PEOPLE THAT SASQUATCH IS REAL!! YOU LIARS!! YOU ARE FILLING FOLKS BRAINS WITH SILLINESS!! I HATE PEOPLE LIKE YOU, SPREADING FOOLISHNESS THAT THERE IS A SASQUATCH!!!"

See my point?? If you truely think God is a figmant of one's imagination like I believe of sasquatch... why rant about it all the time?? I know I'd feel like a moron for going to sasquacth forums and posting that tirade I just put up there. Wink
Just like Bill judged. I have heard the phrase, "That put the fear of God in him" so many times. And yes, to tell people they aren't truly happy because they don't believe IS judging. So be happy, go to chruch, do whatever it takes for you to live with yourself, just allow others their right to do the same without telling them how wrong they are. And you know what? Maybe it's not your place to point out anything, because what you call bad behavior and immorality might not be that to others. Funny you should mention sasquatch, because I have heard people say there is more evidence to point to "bigfoot's" existance than there is Gods.
Billy Joe Bob GeneBilly Joe Bob GeneHall of Famer
quote:
See my point?? If you truely think God is a figmant of one's imagination like I believe of sasquatch... why rant about it all the time?? I know I'd feel like a moron for going to sasquacth forums and posting that tirade I just put up there. Wink


Strange, the forum's spell-checker works on my computer. Oh, well.

Petah,

One who is without a belief in Sasquatch would be an Asasquatchist. I had to add that one to the spell-check dictionary.

Suppose we lived in a country where 85% of people believed in some sort of Sasquatch. They ridicule you and shame you and tsk-tsk you and keep their kids away from you and all your fellow Asasquatchists. There isn't a way in the world they'd elect you to be Executive Tree Surgeon. They say that morals only come from the Book of Sasquatch, so you can't possibly be moral. They think you're a freak for not wanting to bask in the light of the Sasquatch for all eternity.

Getting it yet? Need I go on? I can, you know. Let me know of you don't grok my rap, dig?

Yours in Sasquatchism. OK, not really.
Everlasting GodstopperEverlasting GodstopperFamiliar Face
quote:
See my point?? If you truely think God is a figmant of one's imagination like I believe of sasquatch... why rant about it all the time??



Because we live in a world where Sasquatchians get elected to office just by proclaiming they believe in Sasquatch and have zero other qualifications (sorry, Palin fans but get real). They attempt to pass laws enforcing Sasquatchian beliefs even up into a woman's uterus. They insist on teaching the "scientific theory" that all of creation was burped into existence by the Great Toad and insist that my daughters learn it as scientific fact.

And of course they keep telling me and my familiy that they will suffer a fate worse than death if I don't instantly start somehow believing in Sasquatch despite the overwhelming lack of evidence.

You just trying living in a world where 90% of everyone is convinced of the existence of Sasquatch and see how long you can keep your mouth shut about it. Enough is enough. Grow up!
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
See my point?? If you truely think God is a figmant of one's imagination like I believe of sasquatch... why rant about it all the time?? I know I'd feel like a moron for going to sasquacth forums and posting that tirade I just put up there. Wink

One who is without a belief in Sasquatch would be an Asasquatchist. I had to add that one to the spell-check dictionary.

Suppose we lived in a country where 85% of people believed in some sort of Sasquatch. They ridicule you and shame you and tsk-tsk you and keep their kids away from you and all your fellow Asasquatchists. There isn't a way in the world they'd elect you to be Executive Tree Surgeon. They say that morals only come from the Book of Sasquatch, so you can't possibly be moral. They think you're a freak for not wanting to bask in the light of the Sasquatch for all eternity.

Getting it yet? Need I go on? I can, you know. Let me know of you don't grok my rap, dig?

Yours in Sasquatchism. OK, not really.

Hi Deep,

There is one big difference which you ALWAYS tend to overlook in your sarcastic comparisons: God, in His Written Word, the Bible, has given us over 1800 prophecies, most of which have been fulfilled and proven to date.

No other world religion holy book, and no other atheist "cutesy" god gives us fulfilled prophecies.

The statistical probability of only 8 fulfilled prophecies is a number so large that if you had that number of silver dollars -- it would cover the state of Texas in silver dollars, two foot deep.

That is the number for only 8 prophecies. Can you imagine the size of the number for over 1800 fulfilled prophecies?

And, put on top of this the large number of answered prayers -- and, well, there is no way to argue that God does not exist or that He IS NOT in control of the universe; regardless of what Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens write in their "get rich" books.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Everlasting GodstopperEverlasting GodstopperFamiliar Face
quote:
There is one big difference which you ALWAYS tend to overlook in your sarcastic comparisons: God, in His Written Word, the Bible, has given us over 1800 prophecies, most of which have been fulfilled and proven to date.

Reality check: This is complete crap. much of the new testament was written by scribes who did not intentionally "make" the nt agree with the OT but simply "corrected" some "oversights" that the original writers of the books "obviously" left out. There is not a single prophecy that you can conclusively "prove." Not a single one.

Ga' head, give it a try, Gray. Whats your best prophecy?
PR Peter RiellyPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Strange, the forum's spell-checker works on my computer. Oh, well.

Petah,

One who is without a belief in Sasquatch would be an Asasquatchist. I had to add that one to the spell-check dictionary.

Suppose we lived in a country where 85% of people believed in some sort of Sasquatch. They ridicule you and shame you and tsk-tsk you and keep their kids away from you and all your fellow Asasquatchists. There isn't a way in the world they'd elect you to be Executive Tree Surgeon. They say that morals only come from the Book of Sasquatch, so you can't possibly be moral. They think you're a freak for not wanting to bask in the light of the Sasquatch for all eternity.

Getting it yet? Need I go on? I can, you know. Let me know of you don't grok my rap, dig?

Yours in Sasquatchism. OK, not really.


Thank you once again for the grammar and spelling check... They have a great thread about that over in the Misc. section... go check it out.

Just one question...
How would anyone know I didn't believe in Sasquatch?
PR Peter RiellyPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Everlasting Godstopper:
quote:
See my point?? If you truely think God is a figmant of one's imagination like I believe of sasquatch... why rant about it all the time??



Because we live in a world where Sasquatchians get elected to office just by proclaiming they believe in Sasquatch and have zero other qualifications (sorry, Palin fans but get real). They attempt to pass laws enforcing Sasquatchian beliefs even up into a woman's uterus. They insist on teaching the "scientific theory" that all of creation was burped into existence by the Great Toad and insist that my daughters learn it as scientific fact.

And of course they keep telling me and my familiy that they will suffer a fate worse than death if I don't instantly start somehow believing in Sasquatch despite the overwhelming lack of evidence.

You just trying living in a world where 90% of everyone is convinced of the existence of Sasquatch and see how long you can keep your mouth shut about it. Enough is enough. Grow up!


goobsniffer.. you have a funny screen name. lol

1st... Palin didn't get elected to anything recently, so I'm not sure why you took that jab... however, we have a prez with zero qualifications right now who isn't a Christian, so I think that could go both ways right? Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, however, not only did he not bellow like a moron against God and Jesus... no... he stated that
"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus."

And you touched on abortion there... If you need God to tell you that it's not ok to have sex cause you can just kill the baby if you screw up.. well, you got deeper problems than atheism.

And "burped into existence by the Great Toad"... Sooooo... I have faith that God created the universe and all that is a part of it... what do you have faith in as pertains to the origin of the universe?

And lastly.. I'm not telling you to believe anything... I'm saying it seems absurd to scream from the mountain tops about SOMETHING YOU DON'T BELIEVE IS REAL!!! lol

I asked a question on my last post and I'll answer it here.... "How would anyone know I didn't believe in Sasquatch?"
They wouldn't unless I decided to tell them.. and not just tell them.. but like so many I see on this site, actually evangelize about it til I was blue in the face.
Everlasting GodstopperEverlasting GodstopperFamiliar Face
quote:
And lastly.. I'm not telling you to believe anything.


Then you don't have much reason to post here, do you? We are posting for the same reasons: We disagree on the existence of your imaginary friend who evidently is even more powerful than Sasquatch and can read whats in my heart and physically toss me in the lake of fire if He doesn't like what He sees there.
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