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Important Documentary discussed on the program Democracy Now.


Who Killed the Electric Car? New Documentary Looks at the Mysterious
Disappearance of the EV-1*

General Motors has been at the center of one of the nation's largest
controversies over clean emissions-cars. In 1996 the company introduced the
EV-1 electric car in California and Arizona. Hundreds of the electric cars
were soon on the road. Then they all disappeared. The mystery behind their
disappearance is the subject of the documentary ³Who Killed the Electric
Car?² We¹re joined by the film¹s director Chris Paine, and Chelsea Sexton, a
former GM employee who worked on the EV-1 electric car.

Listen/Watch/Read
Democracy Now!
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/13/1421243
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Who says the electric car is dead in the USA? Democracy Now? Amy Goodman? Chris Paine? Chelsea Sexton? Juan Gonzalez?

Well they forgot to tell Tesla Motors the car was dead. http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1

They should have informed Cart-rite and Universal Electric Vehicle and World Class Exotics and AC propulsion Inc of the date of the funeral.
Global Electric Motorcars is a Daimler Chrysler Company, the urban transport vehicles they sell are a bit strange looking, and not designed for freeways, but they are for sale. http://www.gemcar.com/

Here is a list, some of the goodies are not new, in fact one of them sells refurbished 1980 Renault Electric Cars. http://energy.sourceguides.com/businesses/byGeo/US/byP/...rs/byB/mfg/mfg.shtml

The Tesla Roadster is base priced at 92,000 dollars. I bet you can buy one for 91,995 if you sweet talk them and are willing to wait for delivery, they have a waiting list for the 2008 model year.
EdEKit

Who says the electric car is dead in the USA? Democracy Now? Amy Goodman? Chris Paine? Chelsea Sexton? Juan Gonzalez?

Well they forgot to tell Tesla Motors the car was dead. http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1

They should have informed Cart-rite and Universal Electric Vehicle and World Class Exotics and AC propulsion Inc of the date of the funeral.
Global Electric Motorcars is a Daimler Chrysler Company, the urban transport vehicles they sell are a bit strange looking, and not designed for freeways, but they are for sale. http://www.gemcar.com/

Here is a list, some of the goodies are not new, in fact one of them sells refurbished 1980 Renault Electric Cars. http://energy.sourceguides.com/businesses/byGeo/US/byP/...rs/byB/mfg/mfg.shtml

The Tesla Roadster is base priced at 92,000 dollars. I bet you can buy one for 91,995 if you sweet talk them and are willing to wait for delivery, they have a waiting list for the 2008 model year.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

I know I should checkout your links before I answer but I am getting ready for work and have to do a number of things but will get to them.

The point of the documentary that Amy Goodman is highlighting is that there was a conscious and deliberate effort to kill the electric car. The demand is there and waiting lists that extended into months but powerful interests like the oil companies used their influence to kill it. People were only allowed to lease the cars and not own them and when they proved successful and popular they were recalled, crushed and shredded. Tom Hanks is in the documentary as well as others.

The producer of the documentary has an organization and a site and are touring the country promoting them.

It also points out that the cars were made only because California law required them. Then the car companies and "special interests" did their best to kill it and reverse the legislation.

The documentary also calls on people to take the matter into their own hands and demand that they be made.
Most people can't afford $92,000 for a car, let alone a second car as glorified golf cart.

Electric cars will never be main stream transport. A dual use vehicle capable of short and long distance travel meets more needs. Air conditioning and heat are necessary part of the year -- not an electric strong point.

Hybrid or plug-in hybrids are more likely the way to go. But, even then accommodations must be planned for. Outside electric outlets at apartments, businesses; more electrical generating capacity; battery recycling programs, etc.
Interesting article. I saw a TV interview with (I think) the producer about a year ago. Looks like the Bush administration was key to killing the car.
An unholy alliance between GM, Firestone, and Standard Oil was responsable for eleminating electric trollys from our citys, so we now have fume-belching busses.
Chatanooga has all electric bus service in the downtown area. A driver told me once that the busses run about 6 hours on a charge.
Ed is right of course, you still can buy some electric cars, but the ones I have checked out have a very limited range and are really frindge companies.
I agree with interventor that plug-in hybrids probabally offer the best hope for energy independence as far as personal transportation.
I hope my next vehicle will be plug-in hybrid.
I do think the oil companies will fight it tooth and nail tho.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
Important Documentary discussed on the program Democracy Now.


Who Killed the Electric Car? New Documentary Looks at the Mysterious
Disappearance of the EV-1*

General Motors has been at the center of one of the nation's largest
controversies over clean emissions-cars. In 1996 the company introduced the
EV-1 electric car in California and Arizona. Hundreds of the electric cars
were soon on the road. Then they all disappeared. The mystery behind their
disappearance is the subject of the documentary ³Who Killed the Electric
Car?² We¹re joined by the film¹s director Chris Paine, and Chelsea Sexton, a
former GM employee who worked on the EV-1 electric car.

Listen/Watch/Read
Democracy Now!
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/13/1421243


We have 2 or 3 at work, they actually run MUCH better than I would have imagined,... WITH the benefits too!!! A/C, Heat, Radio and such... not bad.
People who owned electric cars were very happy with them and did not want to give them up. There are still about a thousand out there I believe the documentry points out.

The electric car, like solar and other alternative energy sources are in their early stages. When the car and airplane and other technology was invented they were in the early stages also. If we had that attitude the Wright Brothers would have given up saying their plane could only last a few second or minutes and was impratical.

The point is their are speacial interests that make huge profits and have tremendous power and influence that are activtly keeping new technology off the market.

The Bush administration did join a law suit against the state of California to end legislation that required a certian number of electric cars to be made.

If we had real control of our govenrment they would be doing what's in the peoples interests and not corporate special interests.

We need to lobby our own state govenrments and make it happen. That's what corporations do.
I am suspicious about the premise of the documentary. The title implies there is a conspiracy to deprive the public of an electric car.

Things will work out, and they will become available for those who can live with their peculiar problems, but one thing comes to mind:

Gasoline taxes are an important revenue source for gov't. How will the gov't make up for millions of drivers not using gas?

DF
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
I am suspicious about the premise of the documentary. The title implies there is a conspiracy to deprive the public of an electric car.

Things will work out, and they will become available for those who can live with their peculiar problems, but one thing comes to mind:

Gasoline taxes are an important revenue source for gov't. How will the gov't make up for millions of drivers not using gas?

DF


I thought that too, at first.. but seems like it has taken a turn for the good... ya think?

And to HECK with the gas prices and oil prices and the Bush/Cheney/Bin Ladin/Saddam crap.. I am sick of it!!! They are manipulating prices and us and what we need or want...

I am going to have one of those electric cars before all this is over with.... Big Grin
DeepFat

I am suspicious about the premise of the documentary. The title implies there is a conspiracy to deprive the public of an electric car.

Things will work out, and they will become available for those who can live with their peculiar problems, but one thing comes to mind:

Gasoline taxes are an important revenue source for gov't. How will the gov't make up for millions of drivers not using gas?

DF

________________________________________________________________________________________________

With all due respect the title not only implies there is a conspiracy to keep electric cars off the market the documentary shows how there is. You can use the term conspiracy but there is a deliberate effort to keep it off the market. The documentary also has a whistle blower from the industry explain how.

Interesting point you bring up about gasoline taxes but oil pollutes and is a factor contributing to global warming. It will also run out one day anyway. As supplies begin to run short the price will rise affecting businesses and all costs and we will then have to come up with an alternative anyway. In the mean time oil companies stand to make close to a trillion dollars, or maybe even more.

As far as thinking up ways to make up the lost tax revenue that is something the government seems to be very resourceful at. I am sure they will think of something.
Pogo,

I have not seen the documentary. Maybe when it comes on HBO.

We are all aware, however, of the American cottage industry of creating conspiracies where none exists. Look at those fools claiming that 9/11 was an "inside job", perpetrated by W. Bush and his administration.

One of the reasons why conspiracy theories flourish is our lack of critical thinking. Those who support them say "prove it didn't happen that way".

The EV-1 might just have been the fire hazard GM said it was.

By the way, I drove one. It was a kick! Great acceleration, and no noise other than the tires on the road. I'll be happy to consider an electric car, when they become feasible.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
I am suspicious about the premise of the documentary. The title implies there is a conspiracy to deprive the public of an electric car.

Things will work out, and they will become available for those who can live with their peculiar problems, but one thing comes to mind:

Gasoline taxes are an important revenue source for gov't. How will the gov't make up for millions of drivers not using gas?

DF


Deep, I have noticed that you and I have different perspectives on a lot of things. Funny, in that most of my friends from California have similiar views to me.
However, I do believe there is an effort "conspiracy" of the Bush administration to push higher gasoline consumption.
I will give a couple of examples:
>When Bush first became president, on of his first big tax incentives, was for the largest and most gas-guzzeling SUV's and trucks.
> Bush made a speech where he said that it is the right of Americans to burn as much fuel as they want. (not in quotes-probably not exact phrase)
> The Bush administration has failed to collect from the oil companies the royalities that they are required to pay for pumping oil that belongs to you and me on National Public Land.

He has talked a lot about the hydrogen cars, and cars running on ethynol, but in reality, for the most part that is just what it is--talk.
In fact, after his first mention of a hydrogen car in his speech, Cheney went the next day to the oil executives and told them not to worry, that that was all just BS.
Here are some suggestions that he should have already done, but could still do to convence me of the lack of a conspiracy to keep us on an oil economy.
> serious tax credits for people buying all-electric cars, or very high mileage cars. (as opposed to his origional tax credits for gas guzzlers) Aren't Republicans susposed to be in favor of lower taxes?
> The re-instatement of tax credits for solar water heaters that Reagan did away with.

> Encourage good rail public transportation, and encourage railroads to use electricity for their power instead of diesel where possible.

When I see some of these kinds of things being proposed, I will change my mind, but until then, I believe Bush does conspire to keep us slaves to oil.
Excel,

I can't find many Californians who agree on most anything!

Anyway, you covered a lot of ground. Let's talk. When and how did W enact "incentives" for people to drive gas guzzlers?

There is no restriction on your right to buy as much gasoline as you want. If W said this, he's right. It's a legal liquid, available everywhere.

Please provide details of oil royalties not being paid. I am aware of valuable, long-term contracts in place, but those are legal contracts made when oil was $2/bbl.

Hydrogen and other alternative fuel cars are not feasible, but the research is in place. Gov't assistance to that research is growing, but it is not gov't's place to do the research. For the moment, and the foreseeable future, the country runs on oil. We won't change that too soon for me.

Why should electric car owners get tax credits? They will already save lots of money on gasoline, besides, there is the gas-tax gap of which I spoke earlier. Use of the roads costs money.

If solar water heaters, solar electric panels, etc. is truly feasible, you don't need tax credits for them. As a matter of fact, yesterday's L.A. Times noted that gasoline consumption in California is down from last year. The market is reacting predictably. When truck fuel and car fuel becomes prohibitively expensive, and it's in the process now, public transportation and rail transport will naturally increase.

W does not have to conspire to create or perpetuate an oil economy. You do the work every time you fill 'er up. W has spoken many times of his proposed policy of supporting alternate energy sources.

DF
I don't know what to say. (amazing as that seems it's true) But, in keeping with my reputation, I will say something anyway.

I'M SORRY. My effort to turn this discussion from the accuracy of a "conspiracy to kill" the electric car failed.

Let us, as GM does, say that the EV 1 was an experimental car, leased to willing users to test it in actual real time uses. We all know that General Motors is in business. They are in business to earn money. Without knowing what the profit curve for the EV 1 was, we cannot know why GM ceased production. I don't know if the results of the two year "test" of the EV 1 are public, and I don't know where to look for them if they are.
I do know that the Governator of California has stopped using gasoline powered Hummers for his personal transportation. He had the clout and the money to have a hydrogen powered H 2 built for his personal use, and DID. The car itself has attracted international interest.
I posted links to two electric cars. One is adequate for commuting to work. It is about as strange looking as an orangutan would be in the Miss America Pageant. The other is a roadster that would look good in Beverly Hills. For any of these cars to succeed they have to have sales, and they have to generate profit.
Any conspiracy to kill the electric car will fail if it is A) exposed and B) wrong headed.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
The Governator is

a) Very Rich
b) The Governor
c) lucky enough to have a staff of mechanics.


That's what it takes to run a hydrogen car these days. The current issue of Scientific American has a good article on alternate fuels.

DF
Like I said, he had the money, and clout to do the job.
I personally favor the idea of all electric cars.
Some years ago a car called the Blue Bird was on the market. It was fully enclosed, three wheeled, and very aerodynamic. It was all electric, with a range of about 75 miles. It had a three passenger capacity if I recall correctly, and at least one of them, here in Phoenix, was used by a man who installed a portable generator in the rear seat area. He drove it to work, started the generator, and recharged it while he was in his office. It had a top speed of about 80 MPH. Registered as a Motorcycle, recharged on household current or the generator, and was in regular use for several years.
Fiat built a hybrid in 1927, they have been around a while.
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10...wwflag=2&imagepos=55

An all electric truck was in use in England in 1915 http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10...wwflag=2&imagepos=38
Greenpeace says that while there is a carbon load created by generating electricity to power vehicles, the load is about 25% less than for internal combustion.
I suppose that what I am driving at is this. Electric cars work. I suspect that the reason for their rarity is the cost of building them.
quote:
Originally posted by excelman:
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
I am suspicious about the premise of the documentary. The title implies there is a conspiracy to deprive the public of an electric car.

Things will work out, and they will become available for those who can live with their peculiar problems, but one thing comes to mind:

Gasoline taxes are an important revenue source for gov't. How will the gov't make up for millions of drivers not using gas?

DF


Deep, I have noticed that you and I have different perspectives on a lot of things. Funny, in that most of my friends from California have similiar views to me.
However, I do believe there is an effort "conspiracy" of the Bush administration to push higher gasoline consumption.
I will give a couple of examples:
>When Bush first became president, on of his first big tax incentives, was for the largest and most gas-guzzeling SUV's and trucks.
> Bush made a speech where he said that it is the right of Americans to burn as much fuel as they want. (not in quotes-probably not exact phrase)
> The Bush administration has failed to collect from the oil companies the royalities that they are required to pay for pumping oil that belongs to you and me on National Public Land.

He has talked a lot about the hydrogen cars, and cars running on ethynol, but in reality, for the most part that is just what it is--talk.
In fact, after his first mention of a hydrogen car in his speech, Cheney went the next day to the oil executives and told them not to worry, that that was all just BS.
Here are some suggestions that he should have already done, but could still do to convence me of the lack of a conspiracy to keep us on an oil economy.
> serious tax credits for people buying all-electric cars, or very high mileage cars. (as opposed to his origional tax credits for gas guzzlers) Aren't Republicans susposed to be in favor of lower taxes?
> The re-instatement of tax credits for solar water heaters that Reagan did away with.

> Encourage good rail public transportation, and encourage railroads to use electricity for their power instead of diesel where possible.

When I see some of these kinds of things being proposed, I will change my mind, but until then, I believe Bush does conspire to keep us slaves to oil.


Well said, excelman!!!
I checked out the Tesla outfit after I read a glowing review of their sports car in Motor Trend magazine.

http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1

Sure, the coupe is $90,000, but it's built on a Lotus Elise chassis with carbon fiber body work. Also, it's a screamer. It's a sports car with a 250 mile range and 4 hour recharge time. Not bad.

Tesla is also working on a sub-$50,000 minivan. That's a lot for a minivan, but remember electricity costs about 1 cent/mile. Not bad either.

Both will use litium-ion batteries instead of lead/acid batteries.

When GMC builds an electric Sierra, I'll buy one.

DF

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