Skip to main content

quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
Ah, thanks, hon, that's sweet, but I'm no savior. "Savior" has a built in implication; saved from something.

That's the question. I can't get a square answer to it.

Time is long and life is short. I can't imagine spending it living a lie.


nsns


Ok, maybe I should have said my defender. Smiler

I agree, I have never been able to get a real answer to the saved question either.

As a former christian I know the canned answers, its just none of them hold water. Smiler
quote:
think that the truth just hurt too much. Seems that some of the christians on here can't keep their christian hats on and discuss the issues associated with their beliefs.


Yes, thats true. I have been guilty of this as well. I guess it's just that there is so much passion and emotion in such issues. It is SO HARD to be compassionate and forgiving when your "religion" gets slammed all the time. I admit, certain peeps on here have gotten the better of me....
BUT I have come to a realization that there is nothing and nobody that can tell me that what is in my heart is "wrong". Maybe it's wrong for them, but for me, it's so right! Smiler And fulfills my life. I haven't been posting much lately, because I feel like all the negativity detracts from who we are called to be.
And I also came to the realization that there are very few topics within Christianity that will be resolved- so why bother with the bickering. Either you "get it" or you don't.
JMHO.
And to themax- I am deeply sorry for your loss. Be well. xoxo
My dear Veep,

thanks for being honest.

Let's say you married the ugliest, most shiftless, worthless man in the county, but you love him to pieces. In this case, no one can tell you that what is in your heart is wrong. There is no accounting for such. Go in peace. Personally, I'm grateful for such women.

However, when (or if) you accuse us of being born with Original Sin, it becomes more personal. Now we want evidence. Now we want you to explain your position. This is just one example of religious presumption.

When we go from the personal to the universal, there are no special truths, no privileged points of reference. What is true is true. It's NOW that I ask for your evidence of religion.

Don't take this personally, I've been making this challenge here for almost four years.

Just giving you a heads-up on where I'm coming from.

Happy Holidays!

nsns
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
My dear Veep,

thanks for being honest.

Let's say you married the ugliest, most shiftless, worthless man in the county, but you love him to pieces. In this case, no one can tell you that what is in your heart is wrong. There is no accounting for such. Go in peace. Personally, I'm grateful for such women.

However, when (or if) you accuse us of being born with Original Sin, it becomes more personal. Now we want evidence. Now we want you to explain your position. This is just one example of religious presumption.

When we go from the personal to the universal, there are no special truths, no privileged points of reference. What is true is true. It's NOW that I ask for your evidence of religion.

Don't take this personally, I've been making this challenge here for almost four years.

Just giving you a heads-up on where I'm coming from.

Happy Holidays!

nsns


You challenge will, undoubtedly, go unanswered. It is impossible to give evidence when none exists.
NSNS,
I love you dearly. However, evidence and faith are kind of mutually eliminating.
If there was concrete tangible evidence, then there would be an entire world full of Christians. There would be no atheism, no Judaism, etc. As the ole' book says, every knee would bend at the name Jesus.
Faith by definition, is believing in the absence of evidence. I can't answer your challenge, nor can anyone else, unless you accept personal revelation and Word of Mouth teaching from the Apostles (eye witnesses) as evidence.
God does reveal Himself at times. I can tell you that I have had personal revelation that confirms my faith in God- I have zero doubt that He exists. I'm not special, I really suck most of the time..lol...but I have had experiences which have assured me of my Faith. I don't know what to tell you.
Sir, you have to stop asking for evidence, and accept that the Faithful are faithful IN SPITE OF a lack of evidence- the very essence of faith.
Am I stupid? Naive? No. I am just perfectly happy in my Christian life. I find meaning and comfort there. The Words of our Lord, the lineage of the Apostles, and my own personal revelation are more than enough for me.
I wish I never came to this forum- while I have learned some, (defending your Faith is the best way to learn it!) I have also felt hostility and anger, illwill and sarcasm (not from you)
that are not emotions that I like to associate with my Faith.
So I'm rambling now, but bottom line- if there were evidence, you'd be a believer too. So would everyone. "Blessed is he who believes but has not seen...".
Chacun son gout, n'est pas?
VP,

As I have said before and I will say it again, you are the best example of a "good" christian I have seen in a long time.

I try my best not to demean your very sincere and heart felt post on here.

I do sometimes lose it with others though. Its not that I expect to convert or change their minds but when some take such a hard line and seem to be saying "we are right and you will never understand" I find that I have to respond. I was one of the faithful at one time. I did get it. There could be others out here reading this forum who were like me at one time. Feeling isolated in their disbelief and I want to be here for them to see that its ok to ask the questions and they are not alone in their thoughts.

Please never take anything I say personally. I would not in a million years want to hurt or offend your good and sweet soul. Smiler
quote:
Sir, you have to stop asking for evidence, and accept that the Faithful are faithful IN SPITE OF a lack of evidence- the very essence of faith.

Ma'am, I can not.

When one accepts, utterly, any idea without evidence, one has abandoned intellect. Intellect is the defining characteristic of humanity, so blind faith is an insult to us all.

We don't get to invent our realities. To do so is to remove any intellectual significance we might enjoy. When Adam Savage says on Mythbusters "I reject your reality and substitute my own!" he's making a joke. When people fly planes into buildings or murder abortion doctors because they've convinced themselves that their invisible friend told them to do so, it's much less funny.

Where does it end? Why don't religious people just accept on faith that 2 + 2 = 5? They don't need no stinking evidence.

Absolute, personal, convinced certainty in one's invisible friend is the problem. When evidence is avoided, why not be absolutely certain? No explanation is required, no evidence comes to bear, no reason nor intellect is allowed, so make up whatever you want and insist it's true. Does that sound silly to you?

Faith despite evidence is weak. Faith without evidence is vapid. I know you are not a fundy, but there are several here. You can see them actually furthering the idea that the Earth is 6000 years old, and that humans in present form were poofed out of dust one Friday morning. I know you do not accept this, but the system of faith despite evidence leads to this sort of insanity, and that is precisely the institution you defend. For the love of humanity, I cannot join you in the retardation of progress in this fashion. I cannot disbelieve what my eyes see, my brain comprehends, and my fingers touch.

The survival of our species, and many other species, depends on ridding ourselves of the notion that the voices in our heads are anything but our imagination. When the mullahs in Iran get The Bomb, can you say it's unlikely that one of them will have a good pray and listen to the voice in his head that says "Push The Button"? The voice he's hearing is supposed to be the same one you hear, the god of Abraham. Would your god tell anyone to do anything like that? Remember, the mullah has exactly the same reason to believe in godnuker as you do to believe in gentlegod. None, except for the memes of superstition.

Without evidence or reason, claims are facile. They can be dismissed as easily as they are proposed, and they should be.

So, no ma'am. I'm not letting you off the hook. I am under no obligation to respect blind faith, and I cannot. I will consider claims of the gods the way I consider everything else, under the light of reality. Every god ever invented, save one, has been rendered unreal. That should tell us something.

Do you see why I say that to be called "a person of faith" is not a compliment? Do you see why I joke "atheists are beyond belief"? Do you see why I get so angry when parents pray over their child with diabetes rather than take her to a doctor?

We've suffered this nonsense far too long, and it's now coming to a halt. The internet that makes these posts possible will be an instrumental element of the decay of religion. With enough information, it's very difficult to remain isolated in an extreme and baseless belief.

Love you too, but I'm not going anywhere or any differently.

nsns
NSNS,

I think we should support christians such as VP. She has consistently shown herself to be someone who is very understanding and caring in her opinions of others. I think we need more like her. To change the way that religion has taken its toll of society we need folks like VP.

I am not one of the people who would do away with religion. I think there are many people who benefit from it. What I would like to see change is the power it wields over peoples otherwise common sense.

When the day comes where religion does not stand in the way of progress or try and force its beliefs on nations as a whole, and is in the privacy of the church buildings and mosque then we will have arrived at a healthy balance of spirituality and reason. When governments stop using it to rile the masses or when evangelist stop using it to divide the country, religion will be nothing more than a personal belief as it should be. It will have no power to harm and those that need it to be happy and secure will still benefit.

You may not believe it is possible for us to reach that place, but as I said in the beginning of this post, I think people like VP will help lead the way. I think it will take a joint effort between us and them. We should start fostering a relationship with those that understand the dangers that religion can cause but still hold it as dear to them in a personal and spiritual way.
Thank you for your kind words, Jank. You know I think very highly of you!
Now- on to NSNS-
Please don't confuse "normal" Christians with extremists- which can occur in every religion.
Do I want to see someone pray, instead of treating their medical conditions? No. I believe every gift in medical advancement should be utilized whenever possible.

You say "Blind Faith is an insult to us all".
Really, it's not. We have several planes of being. Intellectual, Emotional, Physical, Spiritual.
Do I abandon my intellect to believe in God? No.
I know that God exists. I cannot ask you to accept personal revelation as evidence- but for me, it's evidence. There was a time in my life when my faith was SO weak. In fact, nonexistent. In many ways, it is much "easier" to be atheist- as the old saying goes, "with much knowledge, more is expected"..or something like that. Faith "raised the bar" so to speak on what is expected on how we treat eachother in this world.
I do not abandon my intellect when I humble myself before our Lord and ask for forgiveness. I do not abandon my intellect when I ask God to comfort a friend who is suffering.
In fact, my senses are most often piqued during prayer, and I find myself in a heightened sensitivity to myself, and the world around me.

Now, you've asked why religious people don't accept on faith 2+2=5. NSNS, that is a physical fact. One that can be demonstrated. The spiritual realm doesn't work that way. It would be easier if it would- believe me- we would all agree on Faith, and the world would be a better place. But, alas, Faith and Spiritual matters are not scientifically demonstratable entities.
Absolute, personal certainty is not a problem, NS, It is a blessing.
As with everything else in this pitiful world, we have distorted truths so that religion can be used to justify all sorts of evil.
That is not the "norm". It is just symptomatic of the sick, twisted world we live in.
There are many highly intelligent, and highly faithful people. (myself included-haha!).
Intelligence and Faith are not mutually exclusive.
I respect where you are coming from. Believe me. I've been there. But you know, there is no reason for us to disagree on some matters without belittling those beliefs- "sky fairy" or "invisible friend".....those mock my beliefs. Maybe unintentionally, but still.
You will NEVER see me saying you are too "empty" or lack insight, or blind to God's revelations... or anything like that. We are just at different places in our lives, and should be able to coexist peacefully in friendship. I know where you are, you know where I'm "at". Why can we not respect eachothers positions in life?
Cheers...Veep
quote:
I do sometimes lose it with others though. Its not that I expect to convert or change their minds but when some take such a hard line and seem to be saying "we are right and you will never understand" I find that I have to respond.


As well you should, Jank.
After all, how valuable can our opinions and thoughts be if we are not prepared to lay them out and discuss honestly???
We can all learn a lot from eachother.
Thanks. WOuldn't want you to pretend to be or believe anything that you sincerely do not.

Not enough honesty in the world.
Too much phoney baloney.
Peeps always putting on a show.

Now, let me ask you this.
You say you respect me as a person. I believe you. You KNOW that I am deeply faithful. You know that I also have a few marbles upstairs. I mean, I'm no scholar, but I am a properly educated person.
So how can you categorically deny that my experiences that have led me to have a deep and abiding faith in God are incorrect?
I mean, if I were a hillbilly, stating that my mama carried me to Church, and we did singings and casserole Wednesdays and I wear Jesus T'shirts, etc, ok. If I dont comprehend and defend my faith, and just roll with it, You can claim I am a blind sheep.
But dude I have been a doubter/skeptic/atheist in the past, and have done a 360 based on study, and experience. I sought "religion" on my own. As an adult. And found comfort, strength and a spirituality that I never knew existed.
I respect Muslims who are devout in their Faith. I respect atheists, who hold steadfast to their reasoning. I respect Jews for their devotion to God. I even sorta respect (haha) Fundy's for their conviction that they are doing what they believe they are called to do.
So why, oh, why, is it a stretch for you to respect a Christian's Faith, without having to embrace it?
Just wonderin'.
A bientot, mon ami, je suis tres fatigue aujourd 'hui.
Smiler
quote:
So how can you categorically deny that my experiences that have led me to have a deep and abiding faith in God are incorrect?

I don't. I can't.

But I must gauge reality based on tangible reality.

You do realize, don't you, that people can talk themselves into experiences and realities that don't exist? It comes from our patter-seeking nature. It's to be expected. We never leave, entirely, the childish indifference between reality and fantasy.

Skepticism is the antidote. It takes education and discipline to use, but it filters out those things for which we have insufficient reason to believe.

The gods are one such thing.

Veep, I love you, but I'm sure if you hadn't any belief in god, you'd still be a fine, sweet, charitable person. Perhaps for different, even better reasons.

Bon soir.


nsns
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
quote:
Why can we not respect eachothers positions in life?

Veep,

I respect you too much to pretend to respect religion. You can handle that.

nsns


Slim , if I may,

Disrespect by another name is still disrespect.

You may want to appear that you have a license to disrespect others since your views on God are in the minority.

You are as transparent as Ben’s spectacles.

First you bargain for sympathy from the abortionist then gays and recently you decided to try your hand at finding a black atheist candidate.

There are thousands that read this forum and never comment. Do you feel there is a large percentage that don’t laugh at your dishonesty.

You tell veep you love her but under that snake skin we know the disdain you have for Christians.

I’ve watched you dig your hole and I don’t know if you will ever dig out of it.

I watched the 1hr 23 min speech by dawkins you suggested . Slim you should know enough about me now that when science is involved I don’t take someone’s ideas lightly. The book sales caper by dawkins was pathetic. The man has you fooled.

It is obvious you do not have credentials to other than listen to garbage like dawkins. The first clue is your propensity to declare what he says as fact.. Your knowledge of science, I suspect, is not broad based enough to understand the perils in agreeing with him at a cost to the legitimacy of science.

You and Uno have unnecessarily scarred many lives on these forums with your foolishness and intentionally.

Maybe you should seek company of some of the nice Christians and not constantly demonize.

Slim I say all this with no intention of abandoning you as a friend .

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×