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Why can't liberals understand conservatives?

I recently read an interesting op-ed, and it characterized ideologues vs commentators... And the person writing said that the difference between the two, is that commentators understand who they're talking about, and ideologues merely use the convenient point of disagreement to attack the opposition.

Which seems to be relatively accurate, in retrospect. One of the things that successful people know, first, is to know themselves, and then, to know what it is they face, in terms of opposition. Successful people DO things, and anyone who does something, faces opposition. If you want to make music, there's nor shortage of critics to tell you you're not not good enough. If you want to provide some service of some kind to consumers, there's no shortage of regulators to tell you what you must, must not, cannot, should not, do, none of which have any idea themselves how to provide whatever it is you wish to provide.

Thus, if you want to be in business, one of your fundamental needs is to know how badly you will get hurt by those who oppose you. Then, you need to know your competition. But before you even start, you need to know what it is you want to do, and your ability to do it. It boils down to, know your self, then your opposition, and finally, your competition. If this seems redundant, it's simply because I want to stress the point that conservatives DO make great efforts to understand the nature of those who oppose them, while those who oppose them couldn't care less what they're about, and instead, seek to convince others that whatever the issue is, is not one of analysis of effectiveness and competence, but one of moral defect, on the part of the opposition.

The liberal agenda is never sold on the basis of "redistribution causes productive people to be more productive", for instance, it's sold on the notion that "those who have too much are the fault of why you're poor or struggling, and to make it up, we're going to take it away from them."

In that spirit, a couple of people dared me to debate the merits of ideas. I'll predict right now, that no liberal WILL debate the merits of ideas, and instead, will simply resort to character assassination. And, not a one of them will even admit that good governance is one that makes the unproductive become productive, and the productive MORE so, and the successful, even more wealthy, and the unsuccessful, to also become more wealthy.
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I would characterize this entire article as using generalizations, and not particularly accurate ones,to state the two positions.
In other words, it is a conservative attempting to put a sort of bumper-sticker mentality on some very complex issues.
For a small example, the Conservatives have always, at least in recent memory, accused the Liberals, and Progressives as being "redistributionist (is that a word?) of wealth"
In truth , both parties are to a degree. The Conservative approach is to re-distribute the wealth from the bottom to the top, by not only tax policy, but by allowing industry to run amok by de-regulating all the constraints that have been heretofore placed on them.
The Liberals (especially the Progressives), approach is to place regulations on industry, which provide for a safe work place, and a fair wage for the worker.
Two different mindsets.
Now, that one example can be over-simplified, and have a spin put on it like this :
The Conservatives don't care about the peasant working class, the only thing they care about is the bottom line of large multinational corporations.
The Progressives push for the workers to make better wages (thru unions etc), and think the super rich could contribute more to the cost of government as they are the primary beneficiaries.
Now, both statements here are pretty accurate, but both are vastly oversimplified and the reality of the total positions for both groups is probably a lot of both, and at the same time not really much of either.

Very complex issues always have nuance that always gets left out. One of the best examples that comes to mind is the P race of '04. Bush literally, stated his case in short clauses, like what I call a Bumper Sticker phrase. Kerry was not, because all issues are not simple and most have a lot of nuance with them, and Kerry just couldn't state himself without the nuance.
It would seem that the American people, for the most part, don't really pay that much attention to the political arena except when a POTS election comes around, and therefore don't understand how those policies will affect their everyday lives.
You posted someone's opinion, so I felt free to give you mine Wink
Commenting on two statements from the article.

"If this seems redundant, it's simply because I want to stress the point that **** DO make great efforts to understand the nature of those who oppose them, while those who oppose them couldn't care less what they're about, and instead, seek to convince others that whatever the issue is, is not one of analysis of effectiveness and competence, but one of moral defect, on the part of the opposition."

And this one

"In that spirit, a couple of people dared me to debate the merits of ideas. I'll predict right now, that no **** WILL debate the merits of ideas, and instead, will simply resort to character assassination."

From what I've seen on this forum, whether you fill in the **** with liberal or conservative, both statements are often all to true. Sometimes I don't like either side of the arguments, er, discussions on the forums.

These two amended statements are why I don't get into many of the debates. It's quickly become apparent it would be futile.
quote:
You posted someone's opinion, so I felt free to give you mine


Glad you did. I have seen the comparison done by a liberal as well, and of course, his spin is the conservatives are more unreasonable.

The very fact that two different people compare the two ideologies differently goes back to the premise.

Liberals and Conservatives don't understand how each other thinks. And never will.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
Why are conservatives so crotchety?
I'm sure you would be very happy at a liberal forum.
There are many to choose from. Have a nice day.


Here's your answer. It's obvious, if I might say so myself, that conservatives are fear based. You're afraid you'll go to hell if you don't follow the "Christian" party. And you're afraid of anyone different and afraid someone might take a dime out of your pocket. No, I can't understand why conservatives think that way. Jesus certainly did not.

b50m or LMM or whatever your name is today, there are a lot of fringe factions up in Idaho. You might be happier there. Bless your little heart now, sweetie pie.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
B, Jesus told his followers to sell everything they own and give the proceeds to people in need. He wasn't being political, but if anyone nowadays said we should do that they would be called VERY liberal.


Indeed he did, but to give freely, not have it taken by force.
He also said:
II Thessalonians 3:6-12, “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Neither did we eat any man’s bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.”
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
B, Jesus told his followers to sell everything they own and give the proceeds to people in need. He wasn't being political, but if anyone nowadays said we should do that they would be called VERY liberal.


Indeed he did, but to give freely, not have it taken by force.
He also said:
II Thessalonians 3:6-12, “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Neither did we eat any man’s bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.”


The US Government, as a tool of a Christian nation, is just doing Gods work.
I believe it is a little more simple than that.
Conservative means literary to oppose change, be it good or bad. Just look it up in the dictionary.,

Liberal (and especially Progressives) is to embrace change which they think will be in a positive direction. (I admit, sometimes you just don't know until you've tried something if it works or not)
If you don't believe me, just look these definitions up for yourself, as I did simplify them somewhat, but I did not change theh meaning;

So, with that in mind, lets consider Jesus.
The 'Conservatives' he had to deal with was the leaders in the Jewish faith at the time. They had religious power over the people , they were rich, and they liked it that way. They did not want to change, or challenge the way they believed, and for sure they didn't want the 'people' to change their beliefs. If that were to occur, they would loose their power, and money.
Jesus offered a different message which challenged the power structure within the Jewish faith. Instead of salvation by works , you know, doing this and that, and giving MONEY to the priest, he was preaching the doctrine of love, peace, and helping others.
Jesus was surly not part of the Conservatives of his day, he was a changer - BTW still is- and change is by definition a liberal thing.
So yes, Jesus was a Liberal by definition.
It was the conservative Jewish power-brokers that had him whipped and put to death.
The Romans really didn't want to put Jesus to death, but gave in to the Priest and the people.
Rome had one and only one stick in that fire, and that was to keep peace in the region.
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Gekko/D.B. Cooper:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
I have been in Alabama all my life, never been to Idaho.

I have one screen name.

I don't follow the 'Christian' party, I vote person.

You mean Jesus was a liberal? Interesting concept. Do tell.


Liar! You've also posted as "meanasasnake" on this forum. Several people know this. In fact, you just posted something as "meanasasnake" today:

http://forums.timesdaily.com/e...1027316/m/6512061109

Does being a pathological liar come naturally for you, or do you have to work at it? You might want to ask your doctor about lithium; it's helpful to people with bipolar disorder.

You also used to post on this forum as LMM before you got banned and currently post on the Tuscaloosa News forums as LMM.

That's not "one" screen name, hon.


You know, I have been told by several people in the last few days they 'know' something. Meanasasnake is not me. In fact we don't even know each other. She left the forum about a year ago because she was sick. As to the rest, 'hon', you can tell butters I'm not playing the game.
If meanasasnake is back, I'm glad. She is a liberal btw, not a conservative.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
I have been in Alabama all my life, never been to Idaho.

I have one screen name.

I don't follow the 'Christian' party, I vote person.

You mean Jesus was a liberal? Interesting concept. Do tell.


On another post you mentioned another forum where your were accused of an assassination plot. What would that forum be ?
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
No thanks, I'm not going there. Since all these 'new' and recycled posters and questions have come up in the last few days, I'm done with it.

I will remember to ask the mod to delete my account there however.


Well it can't be the forum I'm thinking of anyway ,as there is no b50m there and you only have the one screen name.
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Why not? Jesus is the one and only savior. He died for you, Jennifer. Why do you reject His free gift of salvation?

I reject the myth of your jesus and all that goes with it. No one died for me or because of anything I've ever done.


****, Jennifer, by posting these anti-Christian rants on the politics side of the forum, some of the rabid right wingers may see you as a "TOOL" of the devil Eeker and therefore an enemy in the "eyes" of God! Roll Eyes After all, you seem to align yourself with the "Christian Coalition" and a right winger as espoused by Bill Gray on the religious side. Are you in one of the pergatory existences between "saved" conservatives and "****ed" liberals?????? Which do you subscribe to????????? Eeker
Last edited by rocky
quote:
Originally posted by rocky:
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Why not? Jesus is the one and only savior. He died for you, Jennifer. Why do you reject His free gift of salvation?

I reject the myth of your jesus and all that goes with it. No one died for me or because of anything I've ever done.


****, Jennifer, by posting these anti-Christian rants on the politics side of the forum, some of the rabid right wingers may see you as a "TOOL" of the devil Eeker and therefore an enemy in the "eyes" of God! Roll Eyes After all, you seem to align yourself with the "Christian Coalition" and a right winger as espoused by Bill Gray on the religious side. Are you in one of the pergatory existences between "saved" conservatives and "****ed" liberals?????? Which do you subscribed????????? Eeker


Want to correct my spelling of PURGATORY???? Wink
BUSTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by dogsoldier0513:
If liberals chose to understand conservatives, the liberals would become extinct.


People saying things like this is why the article is bunk. There's people on both sides of the fence who think that they have all the answers and the other side is the problem.

A generation ago you could disagree with someone over politics and still respect them because in the end it was a conversation, vs. today where things typically taper off into blame, because everyone is uncomfortable about the situation we are in.

We are a society that expects pain to be numbed if not completely eliminated. Unfortunately most of the problems of today can't be traced to one group or event. Life is full of compromises and pain, and there is no such thing as a perfect society
Back to the topic at hand.

I do understand conservatives...I just don't agree with them.

As for liberals if we are talking extremes then I don't agree with them either.

However for the most part I find myself voting more often than not for the Democrats. I am not a straight line party kind of person, but it does seem like they represent my views more.

I feel I have not reached a point financially to support the Republicans. Smiler Hopefully one day I will. Smiler Unless they change their view on governing based on their personal religious beliefs I probably still wouldn't vote Republican.

I have to agree with who ever it was that said the biggest issues we have right here and now in 2011 is bi-partisan. Finger pointing will get us no where. I have seen the failures of the Republican agendas AND the Democratic ones alike.

I wish we had a stronger Libertarian party. It seems the country has become so polarized that the likely hood of meeting in the middle is nearly none existent.
quote:
I do understand conservatives...I just don't agree with them.

You don't understand them if you think we are all coming from a religious point of veiw. I don't let religion rule any part of my life and most certainly not in politics. A democrat will only vote for anybody with a D after their name, whether or not that person's policies are good for the country. Anyone that agrees 100% with their party is an idiot, thus we have the democrats. My husband and I can't support the world. We have our family to consider. Anyone truly needy we do go out of our way to help. But when you have a political party wanting a few to support the majority of the country it can't be done. Call us heartless all you want, I don't care. I get angry when I see people that are really in desperate need being passed over for someone who's only disability is thinking the government and the rest of us owe them something. They wouldn't p*ss on us if we were on fire but we're expected to totally support them all their lives.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Gecko/Cooper, I just wanted to let you know I have reported your posts. B50m is my friend, and I will not stand by while someone like you harasses her like that.

Thanks hon. It seems things are crawling out of the woodwork lately. I put 'it' on ignore.
That's rockhead, the liberals guru.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Gecko/Cooper, I just wanted to let you know I have reported your posts. B50m is my friend, and I will not stand by while someone like you harasses her like that.


I certainly hope that you also report those posts where conservatives harass, attack, and demean liberals. From what I've seen on this forum there is a definite tendency to attack rather than debate or discuss.
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Gekko/D.B. Cooper:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
I have been in Alabama all my life, never been to Idaho.

I have one screen name.

I don't follow the 'Christian' party, I vote person.

You mean Jesus was a liberal? Interesting concept. Do tell.


Liar! You've also posted as "meanasasnake" on this forum. Several people know this. In fact, you just posted something as "meanasasnake" today:

http://forums.timesdaily.com/e...1027316/m/6512061109

Does being a pathological liar come naturally for you, or do you have to work at it? You might want to ask your doctor about lithium; it's helpful to people with bipolar disorder.

You also used to post on this forum as LMM before you got banned and currently post on the Tuscaloosa News forums as LMM.

That's not "one" screen name, hon.


Dude you need help. Posts like yours aren't needed here.
quote:
Originally posted by rocky:
quote:
Originally posted by rocky:
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Why not? Jesus is the one and only savior. He died for you, Jennifer. Why do you reject His free gift of salvation?

I reject the myth of your jesus and all that goes with it. No one died for me or because of anything I've ever done.


****, Jennifer, by posting these anti-Christian rants on the politics side of the forum, some of the rabid right wingers may see you as a "TOOL" of the devil Eeker and therefore an enemy in the "eyes" of God! Roll Eyes After all, you seem to align yourself with the "Christian Coalition" and a right winger as espoused by Bill Gray on the religious side. Are you in one of the pergatory existences between "saved" conservatives and "****ed" liberals?????? Which do you subscribed????????? Eeker


Want to correct my spelling of PURGATORY???? Wink
BUSTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Big Grin


Rocky, your ignorance is showing again. Better zip it up.

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