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Paul Wallace ("Religion Dispatches," October 20, 2011)

USA - Lately, Karl Giberson and Randall J. Stephens have spilled some ink trying to convince the world that there is a distinction to be drawn between evangelicalism and fundamentalism. “Fundamentalism appeals to evangelicals who have become convinced that their country has been overrun by a vast secular conspiracy; denial is the simplest and most attractive response to change,” they write in this week’s Times. “Evangelicalism at its best seeks a biblically grounded expression of Christianity that is intellectually engaged, humble and forward-looking. In contrast, fundamentalism is literalistic, overconfident and reactionary.” So fundamentalism is, in their view, spiritually and intellectually stagnant evangelicalism.

 

In their view evangelicalism has been hijacked (my word) by fundamentalists such as James Dobson, David Barton, and Ken Ham. Dobson and Barton maintain overly-narrow and even demonstrably false notions about human sexuality and US history, while Ham holds to scientific ideas — such as a young earth creationism — that were discredited before Charles Darwin was born.

Although I am neither a fundamentalist nor an evangelical (and although I have not read their recent book on the subject), Giberson’s and Stephens’ distinction strikes me as fair and well-drawn. I know and have known a number of evangelical Christians who do not deny evolution. There is some evidence that the evangelical world may be softening their views on homosexuality. And economic justice can no longer be considered solely the interest of mainline Christianity.

Therefore, on his website Giberson asks, “Why do tens of millions of Americans prefer to get their science from Ken Ham, founder of the creationist Answers in Genesis, who has no scientific expertise, rather than from his fellow evangelical Francis Collins, current Director of the National Institutes of Health?”

 

I can think of a few possible answers to this question.

 

Several prominent atheists have pointed out that some mental gymnastics is required to reconcile anything like traditional Christianity with modern science. And although I don’t agree that Christians who actually reconcile the two are simply being disingenuous, I do think they’re on to something: real reconciliation is not easy. If it were, more people would have done it

.

I have taught several church courses on religion and science and so I have some experience talking to (mostly religiously moderate) parishioners about their views on this issue. And I think that most people simply don’t think about it. (One asked me, “Religion and science? Is that a thing?&rdquo Beyond this, the responses tend to fall into two groups. The first group assumes that science is just wrong; their opinion basically amounts to asking, “If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes?” The second group sees no problem at all. “I see no contradiction,” they say, “Religion tells us why and science tells us how.” My skeptical reflex: Is this true reconciliation, or is it just a more culturally acceptable way of not thinking about it?

 

And then there’s the fact that even casual observers of religion and politics know that simple sells. Simple works. And so, for most politicians and religious leaders, the question becomes not, “How can both theology and science be right,” but, “How can I use this question to not only gain votes, but to establish clear markers for distinguishing my group from others?” And it is far easier to latch onto the simplicity (and spectacle) of Ken Ham and his posse than to the more shaded opinion of Giberson, Stephens, and Collins. (Plus, evangelical or not, Collins is an Obama-appointed member of the federal bureaucracy. This cannot but hurt his case among the Republican-heavy evangelical population.)

 

Finally, the success of public atheists like Richard Dawkins has made it more difficult for some to see science as compatible with Christianity. This is in line with atheists’ intentions, and is in fact part of their success. The nonbelievers didn’t start it, of course; there was boring theology before there was boring atheism. But if ever there was a wedge strategy, Dawkins et al. have found it. By painting science as the enemy of all religion, they have drawn artificial dividing lines and transformed many people’s attitudes toward mainstream science from curiosity and mild suspicion into distrust and even hostility.

 

One can’t really blame the atheists. They’re just using what they have so freely been given. But the irony of it all is that Ham (who is just a wee bit miffed at Giberson and Stephens) would not have been successful in the first place if it were not for the success of mainstream science. Overawed by real science, Ham cloaks his work in its language and bamboozles those who know virtually nothing about it. His and other creationist organizations (like the Discovery Institute) have played directly into the hands of those who would destroy all religion.

 

Back in my physics days I would have called this a positive feedback cycle. The whole thing goes around and around and gets louder and louder and more and more distracting.

My answer to Giberson’s question? Such a circus makes it hard for moderate voices like his and Stephen’s and Collins’ to be heard, much less taken seriously.

 

http://wwrn.org/articles/36396/?&place=united-states

 

Please discuss. Do you agree with this article or disagree and why? 

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I wonder why homosexuality is a "hot button"?  My opinion is this, the writer is basically saying, "look how the religious right has aided those nasty atheists".

          ------------------------------------------

 

"Finally, the success of public atheists like Richard Dawkins has made it more difficult for some to see science as compatible with Christianity. This is in line with atheists’ intentions, and is in fact part of their success. The nonbelievers didn’t start it, of course; there was boring theology before there was boring atheism. But if ever there was a wedge strategy, Dawkins et al. have found it. By painting science as the enemy of all religion, they have drawn artificial dividing lines and transformed many people’s attitudes toward mainstream science from curiosity and mild suspicion into distrust and even hostility."

         --------------------------------------

 

 

It goes back to what I have always said, both parties use religion but the democrats are just "sneakier" about it. All this seems to be, to me, is just one more of those attacks. He's right about the religious right, but at the same time makes my point about the religious left being just as bad.

Best, I love ya girl, but how did you get, the religious left helped the atheist, out of this article? Barton, Ham, and Dobson, are as far right as you can get. 

 

To me this is not about politics so much as it is about science. Why do so many Evangelical Christians deny real science and prefer these scam artist? Is it really just to spite atheist? How silly is that...I mean I can understand that they disagree with atheism but to completely embrace ignorance out of spite seems to me to be worse than childish (because we are talking adults here) to make that kind of mental choice. As the article said, why not listen to those fellow Christians such as Francis Collins? He is a brilliant man that mapped the genome and could run mental laps around Ham. 

 

This is an article about willful ignorance.   

" But if ever there was a wedge strategy, Dawkins et al. have found it. By painting science as the enemy of all religion, they have drawn artificial dividing lines and transformed many people’s attitudes toward mainstream science from curiosity and mild suspicion into distrust and even hostility."

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   as you all will testify this has been a sermon of mine for years.

Originally Posted by lexum:

" But if ever there was a wedge strategy, Dawkins et al. have found it. By painting science as the enemy of all religion, they have drawn artificial dividing lines and transformed many people’s attitudes toward mainstream science from curiosity and mild suspicion into distrust and even hostility."

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   as you all will testify this has been a sermon of mine for years.

 

_______________________

 

another reason, in a long list, that makes this BS!
religions have, throughout history, been suspicious and mistrusting of science....

you want proof?

ask Galileo!

The wedge theory pointed out here is real. Dawkins the idiot has done more to harm science than any other thing.

          On the local level we were blessed with DeepFat who probably declared himself an atheist at some neighborhood bar-b-q after out in Hollywood to get attention as one-of-the-boys not wanting the freeks out there to find out he was from Sheffield ALA!!!BAMA!!!

     Gofish quickly joined in with DeepFat on the quest to destroy any sympathy for science anyone had on the forum.

      Locally the two have represented the wedge and have mustered a hand full of others to show their tails at every opportunity to further beat the wedge in place.

     Science is your friend but dawkins and his followers are enemies of mankind.

Hi Dark,

 

You ask, "Why Do Many Evangelicals Get Science From a Creationist?"

 

Simple answer.   When the Creator, God, ". . . created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1), part of that creation was all the sciences and all the laws governing all those sciences.  So, who better to ask about the sciences -- than one with an indepth knowledge of God's Creation?

 

See how simple that is -- and how true?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Science and Weather

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  • Science and Weather
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Dark,

 

You ask, "Why Do Many Evangelicals Get Science From a Creationist?"

 

Simple answer.   When the Creator, God, ". . . created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1), part of that creation was all the sciences and all the laws governing all those sciences.  So, who better to ask about the sciences -- than one with an indepth knowledge of God's Creation?

 

See how simple that is -- and how true?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Science and Weather

___________________________________________

 

 

 

I know you meant for your answer to be cute and flippant. However, I am sincere and want to know why do some Christians choose to believe Ham and Dobson (who are not qualified in the sciences) over a very brilliant and Christian scientist like Collins?

Evangelicals, and other religiously poisoned people, get their science from Creationists because they start with a flawed premise.  That premise is that the Bible is true and reality must be shoehorned into this preconceived idea.

 

To be fair, science has a preconception upon which it works, namely that the Universe is understandable on demonstrable terms.  This preconception has the benefit of being internally consistent, unlike any religious premise.  Science is self-correcting.  It recognizes its mistakes, unlike religion.  Science gladly changes its mind when better information comes along.  Religion just entrenches itself into its preconceptions deeper and deeper until it must dissolve in absurdity.  To wit, no one believes in Thor anymore.

 

The Creationists try to reconcile the Flood, Genesis as a literal explanation, etc. as natural history.  They could not be more wrong, as normally intelligent and honest people realize, but Evangelicals pretend to accept their lies in order to remain consistent with their superstition.

 

Evangelicals and Creationists do not want to know the truth.  They want to perpetuate an ancient, superstitious lie.  They are invested in the lie, and are too afraid to change their minds.

 

As the **** Goebbels said, Big Lies are easier to perpetuate than smaller, more easily falsified ones.  Creationism is a Big Lie.  Evangelism is a Big Lie.  We can see through them now.  We have.

 

 

DF

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Dark,

 

You ask, "Why Do Many Evangelicals Get Science From a Creationist?"

 

Simple answer.   When the Creator, God, ". . . created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1), part of that creation was all the sciences and all the laws governing all those sciences.  So, who better to ask about the sciences -- than one with an indepth knowledge of God's Creation?

 

See how simple that is -- and how true?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Science and Weather

___________________________________________

 

 

 

I know you meant for your answer to be cute and flippant. However, I am sincere and want to know why do some Christians choose to believe Ham and Dobson (who are not qualified in the sciences) over a very brilliant and Christian scientist like Collins?

Ham and Dobson can posit any sort of nonsense in the certain knowledge that many scientifically ignorant but religiously biases will agree and send them money.  It's cruel and counter to human progress, but it keeps certain charlatans in Cadillacs.

 

Let's go into the religion business.  There's money to be made.

 

DF

quote:   Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
I know you meant for your answer to be cute and flippant. However, I am sincere and want to know why do some Christians choose to believe Ham and Dobson (who are not qualified in the sciences) over a very brilliant and Christian scientist like Collins?

Hi Dark,

 

No, my Friend, I was not trying to be flippant.  I sincerely believe what I wrote.  I have expanded upon that in my new discussion titled "God's Creation Or Theistic Evolution? - Which Is True?" -- and have answered your questions and comments about Ken Ham, Dr. Dobson, and Dr. Collins.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Let's go into the religion business.  There's money to be made.

 

DF

 

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Beautiful tax free billions.

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 So when are you guys going to start Atheists International and go to Iran and convert the people from their "ultimate wickedness". Oh, and take Hitchens with you, he desperately wants to go, I heard him say so.

Originally Posted by Extra-260:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

We have discussed this before NSNS. We don't have it in us to take advantage of the gullible. We are too moral for that life.


But obviously not moral enough to start your own atheist charity that feed the hungry, clothes the naked and treats the sick.

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Dude, you should really try to pull your head outta yer ass before ya say stuff...all that muffling makes ya sound like a 'tard. 

 

DA's already done that with the help of other like-minded individuals (myself being one of them).  Trouble with getting started is we DON'T try to fool millions of gullible people into giving us money, so we're not yet able to do what the church-affiliated charities can do.

 

It's easy to be benevolent when yer ripping everybody off all the time.

Not so easy when you do it the honorable way.

 

From Deep Fat"

To be fair, science has a preconception upon which it works, namely that the Universe is understandable on demonstrable terms.  This preconception has the benefit of being internally consistent, unlike any religious premise.  Science is self-correcting.  It recognizes its mistakes, unlike religion.  Science gladly changes its mind when better information comes along.  Religion just entrenches itself into its preconceptions deeper and deeper until it must dissolve in absurdity.  To wit, no one believes in Thor anymore."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Now, as we have argued this before.

#1. Dawkins is not a scientist, as I am about to prove.

#2. Evolutionary science (loosely called science) cannot get out of the primordial swamp without turning to fantastical stories, hyperbole' and bad dreams from eating pizza after midnite.

 

 The following link is actually science. It's written by scientists, and it's facts are backed up by science.

http://www.trueorigin.org/abio.asp

 

 Now, this is the so-called science that Dawkins pushes.

 

Most, though not all, of the informed speculation begins in what has been called the primeval soup, a weak broth of simple organic chemicals in the sea.  Nobody knows how it happened but, somehow, without violating the laws of physics and chemistry, a molecule arose that just happened to have the property of self-copying—a replicator.  This may seem like a big stroke of luck... Freakish or not, this kind of luck does happen... [and] it had to happen only once..

 

 

 So now we have it from the horses butts mouth. His brand of "science" nobbody knows how it happened, he can't explain it, and it happened very unscientifically. it was by a stroke of LUCK.

 

 There you go children.

Originally Posted by Road Puppy:
Originally Posted by Extra-260:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

We have discussed this before NSNS. We don't have it in us to take advantage of the gullible. We are too moral for that life.


But obviously not moral enough to start your own atheist charity that feed the hungry, clothes the naked and treats the sick.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dude, you should really try to pull your head outta yer ass before ya say stuff...all that muffling makes ya sound like a 'tard. 

 

DA's already done that with the help of other like-minded individuals (myself being one of them).  Trouble with getting started is we DON'T try to fool millions of gullible people into giving us money, so we're not yet able to do what the church-affiliated charities can do.

 

It's easy to be benevolent when yer ripping everybody off all the time.

Not so easy when you do it the honorable way.

 


RP,

 Everytime you open your mouth, you confirm beyond the shadow of a doubt your ignorance.

" The following link is actually science. It's written by scientists, and it's facts are backed up by science.

http://www.trueorigin.org/abio.asp"

 

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!  OMG, where does one begin?

 

The absurdity and dishonesty of that article are simply exquisite.  Folks, this is an example of the desperation to which Creationists will stoop in order to perpetuate their lies and mind-control.

 

On one side of the scale, we have the entire body of modern science.  On the other side, we have "The True Origin Archive".... hehehehe. 

 

Extra, you should be ashamed of yourself.  Furthermore, if this is the sort of "evidence" that satisfies you, you really should get out the mental floss and examine your values and premises.  And why are you lying to the readers of this forum?  Oh, it's not that I don't appreciate your feeble attempts to mislead us; when this is the best argument you can find against evolution and abiogenesis, we are profoundly emboldened in the security of our knowledge of the scientific truth.

 

Still, we want more.  Tell us about the Flat Earth, why don't ya?  And the Demon Theory of Disease.  And please, just for laughs, tell us why the Great Flood buried trilobites below Pachycephalosaurus with perfect consistency.  

 

Sorry, buddy, but this sort of pathetic mythology is no substitute for the collected knowledge of the human species.  We will simply march around you and progress without you.  Rest assured your children will have a more thorough and accurate understanding of the world in which they will live.  We'll see to it.

 

DF

The truth sucks sometimes, eh Extry?

 

Using fifty-dollar words for BS and calling me ignorant doesn't change that.  'Ignorant' is making a statement like that without actually making sure that it is correct first.

 

https://sites.google.com/site/...ppening/untitledpost

 

Therefore I refute thee and you DO stand corrected, chimp.

 

 

Buf, I don't hafta try to be accepted anywhere. Ya either do or ya don't.

Makes me no nevermind.

 

I travel my own road. You can lead, follow, or get the hell outta my way.

 

 

 

Last edited by Road Puppy
Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

" The following link is actually science. It's written by scientists, and it's facts are backed up by science.

http://www.trueorigin.org/abio.asp"

 

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!  OMG, where does one begin?

 

The absurdity and dishonesty of that article are simply exquisite.  Folks, this is an example of the desperation to which Creationists will stoop in order to perpetuate their lies and mind-control.

 

On one side of the scale, we have the entire body of modern science.  On the other side, we have "The True Origin Archive".... hehehehe. 

 

Extra, you should be ashamed of yourself.  Furthermore, if this is the sort of "evidence" that satisfies you, you really should get out the mental floss and examine your values and premises.  And why are you lying to the readers of this forum?  Oh, it's not that I don't appreciate your feeble attempts to mislead us; when this is the best argument you can find against evolution and abiogenesis, we are profoundly emboldened in the security of our knowledge of the scientific truth.

 

Still, we want more.  Tell us about the Flat Earth, why don't ya?  And the Demon Theory of Disease.  And please, just for laughs, tell us why the Great Flood buried trilobites below Pachycephalosaurus with perfect consistency.  

 

Sorry, buddy, but this sort of pathetic mythology is no substitute for the collected knowledge of the human species.  We will simply march around you and progress without you.  Rest assured your children will have a more thorough and accurate understanding of the world in which they will live.  We'll see to it.

 

DF

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 Excuse me, I don't see any science here to refute my post. Maybe I missed it? I see ridicule and obfuscation.

 

 So deep, Give us a comment on Dawkin's quote that luck not science made the first spark of life.

 

Tell us again how life began............. Scientifically.

Originally Posted by lexum:

Tricked me again DF, no wonder you’re confused. You owe me another 15 minutes. Actually more. I watched part of another episode.

   Really my dear man. Is this where you get your science?

   Anyone as ignorant owes an apology.

My daddy always warned me against fast talking conmen, and he was right, fast talkers are always trying to divert your attention.

quote:   Originally Posted by Deep Not Shallow Not Slim:
On one side of the scale, we have the entire body of modern science.  On the other side, we have "The True Origin Archive".... hehehehe. 

Hi Deep,

 

You claim to have "the entire body of modern science" supporting your atheist backed Darwinian Evolution -- I would like to see that list.

 

And, for a list of "modern scientist" who have stepped forward and registered their names as supporting the Biblical Creation -- I will give you a very extensive list.  This is from my discussion titled "God's Creation Or Theistic Evolution? - Which Is True?" :

 

Also, if you will visit the following URL link  you will find an extensive list of modern scientists who have accepted the Biblical account of creation:


http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/


Deep, my Friend, where is your list of equally qualified scientists supporting Darwinian Evolution?

   

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Ape-Scratching-Head_Animated

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Originally Posted by Extra-260:
Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

" The following link is actually science. It's written by scientists, and it's facts are backed up by science.

http://www.trueorigin.org/abio.asp"

 

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!  OMG, where does one begin?

 

The absurdity and dishonesty of that article are simply exquisite.  Folks, this is an example of the desperation to which Creationists will stoop in order to perpetuate their lies and mind-control.

 

On one side of the scale, we have the entire body of modern science.  On the other side, we have "The True Origin Archive".... hehehehe. 

 

Extra, you should be ashamed of yourself.  Furthermore, if this is the sort of "evidence" that satisfies you, you really should get out the mental floss and examine your values and premises.  And why are you lying to the readers of this forum?  Oh, it's not that I don't appreciate your feeble attempts to mislead us; when this is the best argument you can find against evolution and abiogenesis, we are profoundly emboldened in the security of our knowledge of the scientific truth.

 

Still, we want more.  Tell us about the Flat Earth, why don't ya?  And the Demon Theory of Disease.  And please, just for laughs, tell us why the Great Flood buried trilobites below Pachycephalosaurus with perfect consistency.  

 

Sorry, buddy, but this sort of pathetic mythology is no substitute for the collected knowledge of the human species.  We will simply march around you and progress without you.  Rest assured your children will have a more thorough and accurate understanding of the world in which they will live.  We'll see to it.

 

DF

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 Excuse me, I don't see any science here to refute my post. Maybe I missed it? I see ridicule and obfuscation.

 

 So deep, Give us a comment on Dawkin's quote that luck not science made the first spark of life.

 

Tell us again how life began............. Scientifically.

X,

 

Darwin had not one word to say about the origin of life.  Not the first word.

 

Evolution is about the diversity of species we see all around us, and is a perfectly good explanation of such. 

 

Abiogenesis, as you well know, is another topic altogether, and it is to your discredit that you either do not know this or deliberately attempt to confuse the subject with the speculative nature of abiogenesis. 

 

DF

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
Originally Posted by Extra-260:
Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

" The following link is actually science. It's written by scientists, and it's facts are backed up by science.

http://www.trueorigin.org/abio.asp"

 

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!  OMG, where does one begin?

 

The absurdity and dishonesty of that article are simply exquisite.  Folks, this is an example of the desperation to which Creationists will stoop in order to perpetuate their lies and mind-control.

 

On one side of the scale, we have the entire body of modern science.  On the other side, we have "The True Origin Archive".... hehehehe. 

 

Extra, you should be ashamed of yourself.  Furthermore, if this is the sort of "evidence" that satisfies you, you really should get out the mental floss and examine your values and premises.  And why are you lying to the readers of this forum?  Oh, it's not that I don't appreciate your feeble attempts to mislead us; when this is the best argument you can find against evolution and abiogenesis, we are profoundly emboldened in the security of our knowledge of the scientific truth.

 

Still, we want more.  Tell us about the Flat Earth, why don't ya?  And the Demon Theory of Disease.  And please, just for laughs, tell us why the Great Flood buried trilobites below Pachycephalosaurus with perfect consistency.  

 

Sorry, buddy, but this sort of pathetic mythology is no substitute for the collected knowledge of the human species.  We will simply march around you and progress without you.  Rest assured your children will have a more thorough and accurate understanding of the world in which they will live.  We'll see to it.

 

DF

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 Excuse me, I don't see any science here to refute my post. Maybe I missed it? I see ridicule and obfuscation.

 

 So deep, Give us a comment on Dawkin's quote that luck not science made the first spark of life.

 

Tell us again how life began............. Scientifically.

X,

 

Darwin had not one word to say about the origin of life.  Not the first word.

 

Evolution is about the diversity of species we see all around us, and is a perfectly good explanation of such. 

 

Abiogenesis, as you well know, is another topic altogether, and it is to your discredit that you either do not know this or deliberately attempt to confuse the subject with the speculative nature of abiogenesis. 

 

DF

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 Just say you don't know .

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