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X, be careful about who's a Christian and who is not.  The Catholic Church goes way back, and if there are Christians, they are among them.  "The Church" has generated and protected an elite army of pedophiles to the point that it is facing the largest and most righteous backlash since the Reformation, not that the Reformation was morally flawless.
I submit the Irish Refutation of Catholicism of recent months.  About freakin' time, wouldn't you say?  The face of Irish Christendom has been sullied by its own actions.  It makes Penn State look like pikers.

 

DF

Originally Posted by Extra-260:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Dahmer never became an atheist. He was coc and stop going to church but not because he became an atheist. He was a coc back slider.

 

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 geez Best,

 You really need to go educate yourself before you come into these forums spouting your nonsense. If you going to be an atheist, at least know something about it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJduZqGSMb4

 Look who's talking. You wouldn't know a fact if it jumped up and bit you in the butt. Even then you'd deny it bit you. I've heard what his father said, I've read his life story, and i've seen his life story told in documentaries. He was a backslider, not an atheist. 


Jeffrey Dahmer was one of the most infamous and notorious serial killers in American history. Part of the reason he became so well known was the number of victims he killed: at least 17 young men and teenage boys between the years 1978 and 1991. Another reason for Dahmer's infamy was the peculiar nature of his killings. He stored the body parts of many victims in his apartment. He also engaged in cannibalism, although the extent of this is less than was widely believed after this detail was sensationalized in media reports. Dahmer's killing spree was finally discovered and halted in 1991 when one of his intended victims was able to escape and lead police to Dahmer's apartment, where the remains of 11 bodies were found.

Dahmer was born into a family of devout members of the Stone-Campbell denomination known as the "church of Christ" or "Churches of Christ." He was an active churchgoer until the age of 5. After that, Dahmer was never again actively religious or a regular churchgoer until after his arrest and imprisonment. After being imprisoned for his crimes, Dahmer sought out the church of his childhood and petitioned to be re-baptized in the Church of Christ. This caused some controversy, but he persisted until he was able receive this rite, which he was apparently sincere in requesting. Shortly after being re-baptized into the Church of Christ, Dahmer was murdered by his cellmate.

Jeffrey Dahmer's religious affiliation as a member of the Stone-Campbell denomination known as the Church of Christ is unusual. We are aware of no other members of this denomination who were famous serial killers. Jeffrey Dahmer's homosexuality, on the other hand, is not unusual among serial killers. 

 

http://www.adherents.com/peopl.../Jeffrey_Dahmer.html

I don't know who wrote that particular article. I do realize things are often said about various groups that are hard to disprove. That being said, it is a basic tenet in the church of Christ that baptism is for the remission of sins. Ergo, there is no infant or child baptism in the church. Dahmer, no matter what you may think of him, was never baptized as an infant or toddler, at least not in the church of Christ. So, he could not have been "re-baptized." Whoever wrote that article knew as much about the church of Christ as I know about Taoists.

 

As I said to Skippy on the very same subject, if one can say Jeffrey Dahmer's sins were not remitted, one can say Firenze's aren't. If one can say Firenze's aren't, one can say (your name here) aren't. It's a slippery slope.

And fire, I say this, as a christian you have NO idea how it sounds to non-believers to hear someone say dahmer or anyone like him is "forgiven". Not because we don't want him going to "heaven", that would be silly. There is no heaven. But it makes my stomach lurch to know there are people that forgive the things he did, and when I see people stand up and grin from ear to ear and proclaim that so and so, a murdering pos, has been forgiven it makes me want to puke. I don't mean any offense, it is just the way I react to that kind of thing.

Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

I don't know who wrote that particular article. I do realize things are often said about various groups that are hard to disprove. That being said, it is a basic tenet in the church of Christ that baptism is for the remission of sins. Ergo, there is no infant or child baptism in the church. Dahmer, no matter what you may think of him, was never baptized as an infant or toddler, at least not in the church of Christ. So, he could not have been "re-baptized." Whoever wrote that article knew as much about the church of Christ as I know about Taoists.

 

As I said to Skippy on the very same subject, if one can say Jeffrey Dahmer's sins were not remitted, one can say Firenze's aren't. If one can say Firenze's aren't, one can say (your name here) aren't. It's a slippery slope.

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 Firenze, It's funny to watch an athesit argue something they don't understand. i give a documented report from an independent national reporter who says dahmer told him his athesitic beliefs allowed him to murder. an atheist conmes along and says he was a backslidden CoC.

 

Five years old? Really now Best.

 

Now best, you have said you once were a Christian or something like that. If you became killer today, would you be an atheist killer or a backslidden christian killer?

Well extra, your "reporter" is the only person that I've ever known that made that claim. He never said it, all the preachers that talked to him never said it, all the doctors that examined him never said it, As a matter of fact IF you read that article you will see that they were not surprised because he was building an altar in his apartment before he was captured. He was not a jailhouse convert, he was never an atheist. No extra, I would not become a murderer under any circumstances and if that is the way your mind works I can understand now why none of your arguments make any sense. Face it, christians murder people. BTK serial killer was a christian. Google him.


In the words of the man that baptized him. Show me where dahmer claimed to be an atheist or where the minister stated he was. You can't because he never was. This minister would have been crowing about an "atheist's conversion" if he had thought dahmer was indeed an atheist.


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I asked Jeffrey what his religious background was. He explained that his parents had attended the church of Christ when he was a small child and continued to attend until he was about 5 years old. From that time on, he had not had any religious contact at all except for television and the times he lived with his grandmother. He did note that his father had been a faithful member of the church when Jeffrey was a child.

I was not able to study the Bible much with Jeff before baptizing him. Most of our time was taken up with how to accomplish the baptism in a prison setting.

The chaplain was resistant to bringing in a baptistry, even a donated one. Apparently, he had received a similar request before because he said prison policy did allow using the prison whirlpool tub for that purpose. Someone previously had donated a baptismal robe, which was in storage. Once permission was granted, which took two weeks, I met with Jeff, the chaplain, and two prison guards. After taking Jeff's confession, we were escorted to the medical facility where the tub was located.

Jeff was concerned about the baptismal "formula" to use. I normally say, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit for the forgiveness of your sins." He had been told that baptism was invalid unless the name of Jesus was the only name mentioned. After studying with him about this matter, he agreed to allow me to us the words with which I was comfortable. After Jeff changed into the baptistry robe, I went in and baptized him.

Nearly everyone raises the question about Jeff's sincerity. But I was there, and these questioners weren't. I deal with people who want to be baptized all the time. Knowing for certain the sincerity of the one requesting baptism is impossible. I just accept the words of Jesus recorded in Matthew 12: "[O]ut of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks" (v.34 NIV).

I cannot know the condition of another person's heart unless I listen to his or her words. I listened to Jeff's words, and I watched his eyes and his body language. I listened to the tone of his voice and observed his mannerisms, and I am convinced that he was totally sincere in his desire.

Some people wonder how baptism might have benefited Jeff in terms of his stature with the prison system. The answer is that it had absolutely no effect on his life sentences. He still had 15 life sentences to serve in Wisconsin and one in Ohio, if he was ever released from the Wisconsin prison. But being released never would have happened. He had accepted the fact that he would die in prison.

Jeff had nothing to gain in this life by being baptized; he had everything to gain in the next life. He was baptized for the same reason anyone else is baptized. In the light of the Bible, he surveyed his life and concluded that he needed to be saved.

Jeff's death comes as a major surprise to me and his family. I last saw him when we studied together the day before Thanksgiving. He was in good spirits. He led a prayer and gave me a Thanksgiving card, expressing his gratitude to me for studying the Bible with him.

Jeff was beginning to embrace the Christian spirit. His father and several pen pals saw a major transformation in who he was after he became a Christian.

His father has been restored and is again a faithful member of the church, as is a younger brother, who was converted in college.

A memorial service was held for Jeff, which was attended by his family, several Christians, and two sisters of one of his victims who had grown close to the Dahmer family since their brother's death.

I developed a very good sense of friendship with Jeff, and I am feeling a sense of loss. He had a hunger and a thirst for righteousness like I haven't seen in a long time, and I will miss him.



“Roy Ratcliff, a graduate of York College and Oklahoma Christian College, has been a minister for 24 years and works with the church of Christ in Madison, Wis. He and his wife, Susan, have two grown children.” 


http://www.tornadohills.com/dahmer/life. htm

Last time extra, because I think you are hopeless. He was not an atheist. He started his strange behavior when he was very young, killing animals and doing other crazy things. I doubt he even gave atheism a thought and IF ever ask he would still have thought and claimed he was a christian.  Most likely it was religion that helped mess him up. He was a homosexual and you know how you christians feel about that, and add to that he was a necrophiliac. You are on a forum trying to sell the notion that atheism breeds serial killers and leads to all sorts of abnormal behavior. I hope you get some help yourself because your thinking sounds as muddled as  dahmer's was. 

There’s many scriptures in the Bible that condone & demand murder in the name of God & can be found in both the old & new testaments.

The scriptures below & many others have been used by “Christian” serial killers in order to justify their crimes. It could be said that these scriptures is directly against the belief that Christianity is a religion of “peace” and “love”.

 

Christians tend to blame ritual murder/slaughter on Satan. I have yet to find one instance in the bible where Satan ever incited any kind of murder or any other crime.

 

And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.  (Leviticus 21:9)

 

That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman  (2 Chronicles 15:13 )

 

But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

  (Deuteronomy 13:9-10)

 

Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.  (Isaiah 14:21)

 

To the others He said in my hearing, “Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity. Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple. Then He said to them, “Defile the temple, and fill the courts with the slain. Go out!” And they went out and killed in the city (Ezekiel 9:5-7)

 

But those my enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring here, and slay them before me. (Luke 19:27)

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Last time extra, because I think you are hopeless. He was not an atheist. He started his strange behavior when he was very young, killing animals and doing other crazy things. I doubt he even gave atheism a thought and IF ever ask he would still have thought and claimed he was a christian.  Most likely it was religion that helped mess him up. He was a homosexual and you know how you christians feel about that, and add to that he was a necrophiliac. You are on a forum trying to sell the notion that atheism breeds serial killers and leads to all sorts of abnormal behavior. I hope you get some help yourself because your thinking sounds as muddled as  dahmer's was. 


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You didn't watch the video did you? He said it was when he was TAUGHT EVOLUTION in school and in science that he began his attraction with killing and dissecting animals, and then humans. It was the belief that there was no accountability for what he was doing that helped him find justification for his actions.  Watch the interview. 

You didn't watch the video did you? He said it was when he was TAUGHT EVOLUTION in school and in science that he began his attraction with killing and dissecting animals, and then humans. It was the belief that there was no accountability for what he was doing that helped him find justification for his actions.  Watch the interview. 

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IF he said that it was after someone "got to him" and told him it wasn't his fault blah blah blah. Most likely after he was baptized again and worried about going to hell. I saw a two hour interview of his and he NEVER mentioned any such thing. He said HE had no idea why he did what he did, he said the doctors had NO idea why he did what he did. He said he was very young when he started having fantasies about killing. He never mentioned religion at all. Get over it. 

"One thing I know for sure. It was a definite compulsion because I couldn't quit. I tried, but after the Ambassador, I couldn't quit. It would be nice if someone could give the answer on a silver platter as to why I did all this and what caused it, because I can't come up with an answer."



As I said, he SAID he had no idea why he did the things he did, he said the doctors told him they had NO idea. No mention of atheism at all.



"Am I just an extremely evil person or is it some kind of satanic influence, or what? I have no idea. I have no idea at all. Do you? Is it possible to be influenced by spirit beings? I know that sounds like an easy way to cop out and say that I couldn't help myself, but from all that the Bible says, there are forces that have a direct or indirect influence on people's behavior. The Bible calls him Satan. I suppose it's possible because it sure seems like some of the thoughts aren't my own, they just come blasting into my head… These thoughts are very powerful, very destructive, and they do not leave. They're not the kind of thoughts that you can just shake your head and they're gone. They do not leave."

http://www.tornadohills.com/dahmer/quotes.htm


Satanic influence? Spirit beings? No atheist would ever say that because atheists know those things don't exist. He was a christian trying to blame something other than his sick self. Anyway I'm finished with it. Like I said extra, you need help yourself for trying to blame atheism for what he did.





Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer

 


Dahmer was a "mixed up kid" right from the start.  Whatever his problems were, it's facile and ridiculous to blame his actions on his knowledge of Evolution.
We cannot take his dad's word for anything, since he's a Creationist.

 

DF

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oh, so we can take your word DF? How ridiculous.

Originally Posted by lexum:

I will have to argue that a Christian cannot murder. That would not be Christ like.

  Given that axiom all murderers are atheists at heart not Christian.

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There’s many scriptures in the Bible that condone & demand murder in the name of God & can be found in both the old & new testaments.

 

Look, every time ANYONE does something bad, there is sure to be an argument here on this forum, blaming religion. Don't you all realize how silly that is? There are crazy Christians, there are crazy people in ALL religions, and there are crazy atheists.

 

In politics, there are Dems who cheat on their spouses and there are Repubs who cheat on their spouses.

 

Why can't any of you get it through your heads that the acts of an INDIVIDUAL most often have nothing to do with their faith or lack of it, and they have nothing to do with a political party. Trying to spin the bad actions of any INDIVIDUAL on order to blame whatEVER it is you are against, is just plain childish.

 

When all those Penn State students rioted because they fire Paterno, I almost started a thread asking all of you Catholic bashers if you thought those students must be Catholic, but I realized it would just turn into another tired old thread with the same old tired arguments.

 

Each INDIVIDUAL is responsible for his or her own actions, and to blame it on their religion, their politics, their club, or anything else is pointless.

You didn't watch the video did you? He said it was when he was TAUGHT EVOLUTION in school and in science that he began his attraction with killing and dissecting animals, and then humans. It was the belief that there was no accountability for what he was doing that helped him find justification for his actions.  Watch the interview.


So he was taught the truth about the diversity of species.  Do you think his parents did not teach him morality?  Did no one touch upon his innate sense of empathy?  Was he a mutant who had no sense of empathy?


He was taught evolution about the time of puberty, when many mental illnesses manifest themselves?


Ex, have you gone mad?  Dude, I love ya, but this argument is asinine.  There is no link between atheism and psychopathy.  If you've read "Wise Blood" the reverse might become apparent.  I also recommend the film.


DF

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