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Hello, I just spend a lot of time reading through this post and all the responses. Origionally I'm from Germany and I'm very glad the US came and helped in WWII. My grandfather fought in the war and was killed by Hitler because he didn't believe in what the man did. So the only way I know my grandpa is as a name on a wall on the churches property in my small hometown and I have one picture that my grandmother had that didnt' get destroyed. So yes, a lot of children in Germany back then and still today are glad that the US came to help. I support the troops that are in this war that is going on now 100 percent plus. And if someone doesn't like that, so be it. My prayers go out to each and every one of the men and women that defend this country and also their family and friends.
God bless them all. I support the troops. And "Thank You" to all soldiers from the past, present and future.
I finally have a definition from the federal government regarding Victory in Iraq.
The definition was presented by the assistant to the Secretary of State, a career State Department Employee.

Condensed it is this: Victory in Iraq will be a democratically elected government in control of the security of Iraq, and Friendly to the interests of the United States.

The definition is a denial of reality. I cannot imagine an Iraq with a democratically elected government that SUPPORTS AMERICAN INTERESTS. Not after what the USA has done to Iraq and its people, and appears to be willing to continue doing until the people of Iraq surrender.
It will be the same as the election of a majority Hamas Government in Palestine. THAT GOVERNMENT WILL NEVER SUPPORT US OR ISRAELI INTERESTS. But, it was democratically elected. THE SAME THING HAS HAPPENED IN IRAQ. The present government, democratically elected cannot retain the support of the Iraqi people and support the USA at the same time.
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
I finally have a definition from the federal government regarding Victory in Iraq.
The definition was presented by the assistant to the Secretary of State, a career State Department Employee.

Condensed it is this: Victory in Iraq will be a democratically elected government in control of the security of Iraq, and Friendly to the interests of the United States.

The definition is a denial of reality. I cannot imagine an Iraq with a democratically elected government that SUPPORTS AMERICAN INTERESTS. Not after what the USA has done to Iraq and its people, and appears to be willing to continue doing until the people of Iraq surrender.
It will be the same as the election of a majority Hamas Government in Palestine. THAT GOVERNMENT WILL NEVER SUPPORT US OR ISRAELI INTERESTS. But, it was democratically elected. THE SAME THING HAS HAPPENED IN IRAQ. The present government, democratically elected cannot retain the support of the Iraqi people and support the USA at the same time.


I talked to a couple in a convenience store yesterday who is from India... their opinion is that no matter how long the US stays in Iraq, as soon as they leave, Iraq will go back to the way Iraq always has been. They said that it was their culture to war and fight, and basically what a lot of us here say ... We just are not the WORLD's POLICE and cannot change cultures.
so very,very true kindred.
I have friends that are from Lebanon,they have openly discussed their thoughts on this war from day one,all negative. We have no right to even attempt to change an entire culture.I would like to see some proof of where and when the people of Iraq made a plea to the US to give them liberation. Was Washington contacted? Was there a movement going on trying to achieve their own liberation? I would like to know just HOW Bush determined it was our "duty and obligation" to liberate.
I agree in part. The Sec. of State's views are unrealistic. War is ingrained in their lives, has been since the begining of recorded history. One Nation enslaving another, only to be enslaved themselves by a stronger people/tribe. Yes, I have grown tired of being the police of the world. But I don't run the train, nor do I have the access to the intel our leaders do. So really, all I can add is to support our troops and pray for each and everyone of these brave men and women. I can also pray that in years to come we will be more concerned at protecting our own borders instead of others. Let's get busy on that 20ft. wall.
quote:
Originally posted by themax:
I agree in part. The Sec. of State's views are unrealistic. War is ingrained in their lives, has been since the begining of recorded history. One Nation enslaving another, only to be enslaved themselves by a stronger people/tribe. Yes, I have grown tired of being the police of the world. But I don't run the train, nor do I have the access to the intel our leaders do. So really, all I can add is to support our troops and pray for each and everyone of these brave men and women. I can also pray that in years to come we will be more concerned at protecting our own borders instead of others. Let's get busy on that 20ft. wall.


VERY well said, I agree!!
quote:
Originally posted by smurph:
I am still nauseated from King Georges speech last night.


Me too smurph... whatta hypocrite!!! Heck, not even smart enough to put his emotions in it... his eyes were just blank holes, no emotion, no feeling... maybe that will show those who LOVE HIM that he is nothing, and that he is just a power-hungry person who is biting at the bit that his wings are getting clipped. And then pathetically appealing to Joe Leiberman!!! LOL

He spewed BS around the world, and now to get 2 other countries, and 20,000 more of our troops involved...PATHETIC!!! And besides, what about the ones over there now who are due to come home, there should be around that many who HAVE served their time and it is time to BRING THEM HOME!!!! Forget changing a culture... forget trying to make their government operate like ours... They are going to do what they want to do and they are only putting up a front for whoever they have to.

MALIKI, don't call UNITED STATES 911 anymore, take care of your own country.
he only used the word WAR one time,in his opening sentences. he described our future babysitting service for Iraq.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/10/bush.transcript/index.html

I heard NOTHING that points to the "making the world a more secure place to live" (one of his favorite lines). So i went to read it and make sure i had heard everything correctly. We are in fact providing baby sitting services now for Iraq. It can be colored up with whatever anyone chooses to color it with,its what the man said!
smurph, the above comment was 'my' recap of what I heard him say. And you are totally correct, babysitting, yeah... at what price, and why do we have to PAY that price? None of the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ were ever mentioned... He cares not about that money... he cares not that Americans here could have used that for anything... ANYTHING!!! We threw it away, virtually, and there are children here who deserved it... but like I said, he showed absolutely NO emotions whatsoever, none, zero, ziltch... heck, we all show emotion when one of our own is involved in a casualty... but Bush..NO emotion at all...

SICKENING!!! HYPOCRITICAL!!!!
okay we have all those many sects of the Muslim faith. now look at our country, it is predominately of Christian faith,,but how many different branches of the christian faith do we have? MANY.We are not going to stop the violence among those people in 5, 10, or even 15 years, that is something which has been going on for more years than the US has even existed!
quote:
Originally posted by smurph:
okay we have all those many sects of the Muslim faith. now look at our country, it is predominately of Christian faith,,but how many different branches of the christian faith do we have? MANY.We are not going to stop the violence among those people in 5, 10, or even 15 years, that is something which has been going on for more years than the US has even existed!


Very well said smurph... VERY well said. I think there are people today that are disenchanted with our leader that yesterday supported him. I have heard 4 different comments from dubbya-lovers who are swinging the other way. He really did himself a disservice last night... and I am GLAD his and his "crew's" TRUE colors are coming to light. Too many Americans have been under his spell for too long now, some even down to bankruptcy.

Does that matter to him? Nope, the ONLY thing that matters to him is that the EMPIRE he was building is crumbling faster than Dear Old Daddy's did.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
I know enough to know that many-- hell, MOST of you-- will violently disagree with this, and given the prevailing national state of ignorance of the facts of global politics, it is only natural for you to do so. As a REAL American, I strongly support and respect your right to disagree.

Now, on to my point:

At a holiday gathering this weekend, I was with friends watching a hilarious montage of sports bloopers-- you know the ones: skateboard accidents, bobsledding nightmares, rodeos where the bull manages to inflict some kind of hilarious injury to the nether parts of the contestant...

As we laughed, I admitted to my friends that I always secretly root for the bull in these events-- it's an innocent animal being exploited for the amusement of a crowd of inbred idiots who SHOULD be at home teaching their kids to read-- so I feel that the bull is eminently more deserving of my sympathies than the redneck who wasn't smart enough to find a more enlightening hobby than risking his own life in the noble pursuit of tormenting more-or-less defenseless animals.

Ditto the kid who decides that it's a nifty idea to ride his skateboard down a fifty-foot handrail, only to perform a spectacular face-plant on the concrete below-- I can't bring myself to feel sorry for a guy who put himself in that position. Read a book, for %$&@'s sake! Enrich yourself a little! Watch the news and be informed! Take up chess, or golf, or join a softball league! Why knowingly engage in an activity for which human beings were not engineered by whatever Creator in whom you choose to believe? I support your right to DO it, but I'm not going to feel terribly sorry for you.

This got me started thinking about the 3,000-plus American kids-- and let's admit it, they're KIDS-- who have now been killed while occupying a foriegn country whose main offense against the United States seems to be an assassination attempt on Bush the Elder, which is of course a dubious claim for which I've never seen a scintilla of evidence.

I was shocked and appalled at the trend over the last few years of people PROTESTING at the funerals of dead American soldiers. It went against every tenet of my personal system of ethics. But you know what? The more I think about it (and that's been a LOT lately), while I still find the protests at funerals to be uncivilized and indecent, I think I now understand it.

Why?

Because I not only don't support the Occupation of Iraq-- I don't support the troops, either.

Most of you will stop reading at this point to rattle off vicious replies that showcase your lack of information, but for those of you who are intrigued enough to continue reading, here's my justification for NOT signing on with the typical anti-war statement that I "oppose the war, but support the troops".

These kids weren't drafted. Vietnam taught us that any future attempt at a draft would be disastrous and lead to another 1960's-style countercultural revolution, and the fat bastards in Washington far prefer our current sedated, ignorant state of patriotic bliss.

Thus, these kids went and SIGNED UP to go occupy (illegally, as far as I can tell) a foriegn nation, knowing full well that they were placing themselves in great bodily harm and potentially wrecking their loving families who might have to stand over their freshly-dug graves crying the way their child "sacrificed" his life for his country.

I call "BS" on this one. Iraq wasn't going to hurt us in a million years-- they wouldn't have been capable of hurting ANYONE without all the poison gas and other assorted death toys that Don Rumsfeld and other American dip***** passed out like lollipops back in the 70's and 80's.

If these soldiers weren't well-informed enough to take think better of taking a highly dangerous job that pays so little that they would qualify for food stamps, than I think perhaps that every time one of them dies from "insurgent" sniper fire or an IED, that's Darwin at work. Weeding out those who aren't savvy, hip, or educated enough to understand the news (maybe they were watching Fox News, but that's only further proves my point-- Fox News has been indisputably proven to be a woefully pathetic source of "news" and is really just a propaganda tool of the Republicans).

It's sad that these dead occupiers leave behind young widows and fatherless children, but in truth, perhaps those children will have a chance at a better life if their moms marry a guy who has the good sense to know the difference between "national duty" and "participating in a calculated effort to destabilize the Middle East, steal a bunch of oil, and avenge the humiliation of Bush the Elder by removing Saddam". Such a stepfather would likely do a far better job at raising the child of a dead American soldier than said soldier would have done had he survived the occupation.

It's nobody's obligation to "serve" America by participating in this war. Iraq was NOT involved in 9/11, but 9/11 WAS the driving emotional force behind MANY of the enlistments. Occupying Iraq is NOT a "service to America" or a "fight for justice"-- it's jackbooted thuggery in which we are stealing natural resources from a nation with a soverign who, while a terrible, brutal bastard, was really as much a legitimate soverign as George W. Bush, and probably his intellectual superior.

Oh, and what about the rapes, murders, and wholesale pillage of the innocent Iraqis who have now been dragged into a vicious civil war? Am I really supposed to go around supporting a gang of murderous, oil-thieving "soldiers" who have already killed FAR more INNOCENT Iraqis than Saddam managed to harm in twenty-odd years of absolutist rule?

So what we've got here is a bunch of kids who either:

1) took a foolish risk to seek adventure, and paid the price, just like the guy who gets his chest caved in by a rodeo bull, or;

2) were so misinformed and misled that they thought they were fighting for "justice" and "freedom", and paid the price for that stupidity and gullibility, or;

3) people who thought it would be neat to tote a machine gun and "avenge" the USA for 9/11 by capping a few and , and paid the price for that stupidity, or;

4) people who thought that it would be a good way to pay for a college education, and paid a much higher price than college could ever have cost. For the record, I was hip enough to know that student loans and grants are easily obtained, and I survive to type this message equipped with a master's degree and my brain still in my head instead of splattered on some Baghdad highway alongside the wreckage of a poorly-armored troop transport. If these kids thought risking their lives to sack a country was the best ticket to a college education, I say to their grieving families: Pell Grants. Stafford Loans. Work studies.

My sympathy, therefore, hereafter goes to the innocents of the world who are being victimized daily by various tyrants, genocidal maniacs, and religious fundamentalists. No longer will I feel compelled to recite the liberal talking point about "opposing the war, but supporting the toops". My support has better and more legitimate causes on which to be expended.

My compassion goes out to all the families of anyone injured or killed in Iraq or any of our other farcical military campaigns-- but it's really more PITY-- pity that those people were placed in a state of grief that could have been avoided by teaching thier children to have a better grasp of the reality of global politics and the inherent brutality of war. These soldiers are for the most part innocent pawns in the Bush Plan to turn the Middle East into an America-friendly golf resort/oil distribution hub, and I regret that they fell into the trap.

But I knew enough to save my family such misery, and those who didn't are not getting my "support" any more. From now on, they're just going to get my sense of regret that they weren't a little smarter.



I agree with some things you say. To me though, a kid on a skateboard, akin to the television show that aired on MTV: Jack***, is like comparing apples and oranges to American Soldiers. As an American, soldiers in the past, present and future are my heros and who I am forever greatful to because I have the freedoms that I have today. Whether they are helping with the evacuation of a hurricane or fighting in a war, they are brave men and women who give their time away from their families so tha I can be with mine. I owe all my freedoms to them, as well as all of my support. I personally know and have met some soliders in various branches of the military, (as we all do, either by relation or friendships) and their reasoning for entering the military vary from education or either their father/grandfather served and they were inspired by them. Not a single on that I have known or met joined for any reason you listed, aside from the college education that you mention. One friend in the Army looked into the grants and loans but decided...BRAVELY decided that through the army she could go much farther in her education all the while serving her country.

When I first registered to vote at 18, I registered democrat because my parents were. My dad worked in a union. I now mostly vote republican, except I always vote for Bud Cramer. Why I am talking about politics here is because I remember after 9/11, there wasn't democrat/republican/independant. We were all Americans. We held firemen in highest reguard during that time because of the sacrifice they made on that day to help others in need. They knoew what they were doing when they signed up to become a fireman, and it wasn't because of the categories you have listed here. It's because they are/were brave. The people who sign up for an at risk job are what make the world go round in my opinion. So, it's not them that I don't support, it's the leaders. I voted for Bush for both of his terms, honestly because I don't believe in gay rights and I am pro-life. But now I've decided that the women who chose to abort or those who live a gay lifestyle are their individual right and they will have to deal with that, not the elected official I chose. I'm not against this war in Iraq now, I'm just against how it's going right now. I don't understand that just because WMD's weren't found, that makes people feel it wasn't justified. Just because they weren't found doesn't mean they was not there. Didn't Saddam used mustard gase and other chemical war-fare on his own people..in Iraq? And where you say that Irag would never have hurt us in "a million years" -- I don't know what crystal ball you are gazing into, but since you can forsee that, why don't you tell me what you forsee for these foolish kids who sign up to serve or country..look in there and see if they are still foolishly signing up in "a million years" to protect your grand chilren's, grand children's, grand children's...etc.

The only thing I find that I do have in common with you is that I can sit here on my butt, in the freedoms of my very own home and spout of my, probably unwanted...just like yours, opinion about our country. The difference in us is that I know who I am indebted to for my freedoms.

And finally, you should change your screen name to suit your opinions. Last I checked, Patriot meant the following in the dictionary:

pa·tri·ot /ˈpeɪtriət, -ˌɒt or, especially Brit., ˈpætriət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pey-tree-uht, -ot or, especially Brit., pa-tree-uht] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.
2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.
3. (initial capital letter) Military. a U.S. Army antiaircraft missile with a range of 37 mi. (60 km) and a 200-lb. (90 kg) warhead, launched from a tracked vehicle with radar and computer guidance and fire control.



I really am glad that we have a true Patriot to guide the "Patriot" in definition #3. To any past, present and future troop who might read this: To this mother of three, I applaud you. My little girl is a cancer survivor and during her treatment I quickly learned that kids in other countries didn't survive three months because their families didn't have the freedoms to get to the clinics. They couldn't be out after dark and since it took long for a blood transfusion or long for certain chemotherapies, they would be out past curfew. I had the freedoms to take my daughter for her care and she's a very happy, healthy little girl now in part because of you. Thanks from the bottom of my heart!!!!
I, too am VERY thankful for our Troops, I am thankful for our Military that protects all of us.

But I am not for Iraq, and I think that there are just too many of us who lived through the Vietnam Era to "like" what has been going on.

We want our Beloved Troops home, safe and sound and not having to fight a Civil War in another country. That has nothing to do with OUR freedoms of taking ourselves, our children, our grandchildren for medical health. It has nothing to do with our day to day life here. I think every Soldier in Iraq needs to be at home ... in the loving arms of their families.
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
I, too am VERY thankful for our Troops, I am thankful for our Military that protects all of us.

But I am not for Iraq, and I think that there are just too many of us who lived through the Vietnam Era to "like" what has been going on.

We want our Beloved Troops home, safe and sound and not having to fight a Civil War in another country. That has nothing to do with OUR freedoms of taking ourselves, our children, our grandchildren for medical health. It has nothing to do with our day to day life here. I think every Soldier in Iraq needs to be at home ... in the loving arms of their families.


To me, whether or not it's a member of the military in sitting in an office in Georgia, a retired veteran in the hospital in Birmingham or a soldier walking the street in Iraq at this very moment, it's all has something to do with OUR freedoms, our everyday freedoms. I don't "like" any war. AT ALL. Just like my fouth grader who is studing cause and effect this week in school, there's always going to be some undesireable effects. But, as for me, I think the cause for this war out-weighs the effect when it comes to our liberties and freedom at home. I don't think they can come home for various reasons, more than likely some that the American public are not privy to, like Iran and Syria that do and would effect our day to day life here. I do wish and pray that they could be with their families.
I couldn't agree more Just Saying.
KS - NO this war is not about our FREEDOM - it's about our PROTECTION of FREEDOM against other attacks!!! Until all of you understand that then you'll never get it! Until al-Qaida is eliminated from where ever they are we are still under threat of another 9/11. It's a no brainer folks, I would rather American soil not get attacked again. Nobody in there right mind want's to send our Soldiers and Marines into harm's way, but they ARE PROTECTING US! How anyone can disagree with the Miltary protecting our NATION baffles me to no end. Yeah this whole thing was miss handled from the start. But it is working. Have we been attacked? No. Do you not think the enemy would love to do nothing else but to attack us here on a larger scale than 9/11? Of course they would. But our brave men and women have them running for their lives. And with the brave men and women here at home in law enforcement essentially doing the same thing, there has not been another attack on American soil.
If you do not think the enemy is not testing us, you are sadly mistaken.
quote:
Originally posted by jaime:
I couldn't agree more Just Saying.
KS - NO this war is not about our FREEDOM - it's about our PROTECTION of FREEDOM against other attacks!!! Until all of you understand that then you'll never get it! Until al-Qaida is eliminated from where ever they are we are still under threat of another 9/11. It's a no brainer folks, I would rather American soil not get attacked again. Nobody in there right mind want's to send our Soldiers and Marines into harm's way, but they ARE PROTECTING US! How anyone can disagree with the Miltary protecting our NATION baffles me to no end. Yeah this whole thing was miss handled from the start. But it is working. Have we been attacked? No. Do you not think the enemy would love to do nothing else but to attack us here on a larger scale than 9/11? Of course they would. But our brave men and women have them running for their lives. And with the brave men and women here at home in law enforcement essentially doing the same thing, there has not been another attack on American soil.
If you do not think the enemy is not testing us, you are sadly mistaken.


I "USED" to believe that also... but the al qaida wasn't dominating Iraq, there domination is Palistine and Afganastan... I USED to think that this was to protect us and our freedoms for the future also... but how is invading a country FOR WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION justified when NONE were found.

WHO, WHEN did anyone say that we were in Iraq looking for Bin Laden or al qaida???? That was an "AFTERTHOUGHT" for justification for war mongers.

I USED to believe that fighting to stop terrorism on our soil was the right thing to do, UNTIL we stopped fighting to stop terrorism on our soil and started looking for WMD in a completely DIFFERENT country.

Yes, Our brave men and women deserve all the credit that anyone can possibly give, I have always said that, but even some of them don't believe that we should be in Iraq, and believe me, I have talked to a lot who have been there.

We got rid of Saddam, started their election process, and helped them LEARN democracy... now it is time to GIVE THEM BACK THEIR COUNTRY... it does NOT belong to us.

I may stand alone on what I have said here on THIS forum, but not on the many other forum's I have been on. And not with so many people I have talked to.

Only about 1/3 of the people thought this Cival War was okay for us to help with... now even that number is dwindling.

Any and all of my comments are directed at the CAUSE of being in Iraq, and NOT at anytime have I ever said I don't support the Troops... I DO!!!

I support them with all my heart and prayers... and if I knew what else to support them with, I would do that too.

But I am sorry, this war in Iraq is for Iraq, and not for us, not to get al qaida and it is basically NONE of our business anymore, if it ever was.

NOW, and I MEAN RIGHT NOW, if al qaida is moving in over there, it is because we were there first... they were NOT there when we started. And if they are moving in over there, then THEIR culture can handle the difference in cultures themselves... Our brave men and women need to be back over here in our CIVILIZED Nation, back into the loving arms of their families.

The worst, absolutely worst thing that can happen now is that this go on too long, and these brave men and women get treated the way Vietnam Vets were treated, by OUR people.

We have to get out while the getting is good...
I too am for protection of our freedom. But please remember WHAT was the excuse given to the American citizen,,you know those of us back here working,paying taxes making ALL of any wars efforts possible . We were told there were WMDs, searched,searched again,and again,,no WMDs. THEN and only then were we told we were REALLY in Iraq, to liberate the people from the tyranny of Saddams rulership, overthrow his power. We accomplished this the man is dead.NOW we are being told by Bush himself he made mistakes,yea 3,000 of them . But NOW we must PROTECT Iraq,,babysit the country in other words. Reasonings for this war (mission as it is referred to by our president NOW) has done nothing but a flip-flop in efforts to CONVINCE taxpayers we are right.
I have no problem with war to DEFEND. We are fighting a war against an entire area of the worlds' cultures.WHO are we to dictate what cultures are acceptible and what are not? No one,not a one of our self-appointed experts here on this board on the war in Iraq have answered the questions I have presented,WHEN did people Iraq ASK for our help? Did they make direct contact with Washington,or any of our leaders in their plea? WHERE DID THE US GET THE INFORMATION THAT WE NEEDED TO LIBERATE IRAQ? Maybe it was a "self appointed" .
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:




Only about 1/3 of the people thought this Cival War was okay for us to help with... now even that number is dwindling




To me, I don't understand these polls. Where does this "one third" that the media keeps cramming down our throats everytime we turn on the news get this from? I consider myself part of "of the people" and I wasn't asked to participate in a poll. And I can name a whole heck of a lot of family and friends who didn't participate. So what is the "1/3" you keep speaking of pertain to? Is there some club? Is your voice in this poll or just because the poll swings in you opinion you agree with it and mention it to get your point across? Who all here participated in this poll?? I'd like to know. Did every single American participate or is it just an assumption? Seems to me if it was the true opinion then all of America would have participated.

How can this war not be our business, "if it ever was"? Didn't all of our leaders except one elected lady vote to go to war with Iraq? Since making presumptions about the american opinion with is so easy with "polls", isn't it just as easy to say that Saddam did use chemical war-fare on his own people, in his own country, hence at one time there were a certain type of war head that could hurt us or our allies? Since he happened to get his "hands" on it before, couldn't he very well do it again. As if you suppose "NOW, and I MEAN RIGHT NOW" Al-qaida is moving in over there because we were there first, couldn't you suppose they would have moved onto our soil the same way just like 9/11 if this war would have never started.

What if this civil war wasn't going on and Iraq was forming it's elected government like Afghanistan, what would your opinion on it be? Would you think it was worth it?
KS,
Tell me how Mohammad Atta meeting with Iraqi Gov Reps in Germany before the attacks doesn't tie Saddam's Iraq with al Qaeda? If you think it doesn't you are badly mistaken.
Not to mention the documentation that exists that proves radical Islamic terrorist training in where?... IRAQ

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp

WARNING: you will not here this from "your" media.

Yes al Qaeda was in Iraq. It's documented.

NEWS FLASH: the people we are fighting are Pro Saddam. HIS REGIME trained them. Did you actually think that they would just say "ok he's dead now, we will stop killing you"!

And for you to even think that my generation, and anyone else for that matter, would treat ANY person returning from any war like the Vietnam Vets were treated is REALLY insulting!!

Smurph for goodness sake get off the WMD's thing. That's old news. We all know the intel was wrong. The reason we are there is because of radical Islamic terrorists. IE: al Qaeda

Hummm... No one from a poll has ever called me either Just Saying... or anyone else I know... but that is probably just you and me... that possibly couldn't happen accross the country could it???
Jamie,

There is NO doubt that the meeting you mentioned took place. What is in doubt is the OUTCOME of the meeting. I am sure that some time in your life you have asked for something and been told no. Perhaps when you were praying for roller blades. The ONLY Terrorist training camp in Iraq that was operated by people who we can remotely call enemies, was operated OUT OF THE REACH of Hussain's Military...IT was in the Kurd territory, under an umbrella of US air protection, and was created AFTER the invasion of Afghanisan, and was the FIRST target of the Kurd militias as the US invaded Iraq.
Hussain's government was as much at risk from the Jihad as ours. It was non sectarian, it was a BA'ATHIST partisan government.
Keep in mind ONE OVER RIDING FACT. The United States Attacked Iraq. Iraq did not attack the United States. Iran has not attacked the United States. Afghanistan did not attack the United States. FANATIC RADICAL WAHABI MUSLIMS FROM SAUDI ARABIA, EXILED FROM THAT COUNTRY TOOK REFUGE IN AFGHANISTAN, AND ATTACKED THE UNITED STATES. The Enemy is FANATIC RELIGION.
quote:
Originally posted by just saying:
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
I know enough to know that many-- hell, MOST of you-- will violently disagree with this, and given the prevailing national state of ignorance of the facts of global politics, it is only natural for you to do so. As a REAL American, I strongly support and respect your right to disagree.

Now, on to my point:<snip>
Why?

Because I not only don't support the Occupation of Iraq-- I don't support the troops, either.

<SNIP>



I agree with some things you say. To me though, a kid on a skateboard, akin to the television show that aired on MTV: Jack***, is like comparing apples and oranges to American Soldiers. As an American, soldiers in the past, present and future are my heros and who I am forever greatful to because I have the freedoms that I have today. Whether they are helping with the evacuation of a hurricane or fighting in a war, they are brave men and women who give their time away from their families so tha I can be with mine. I owe all my freedoms to them, as well as all of my support. I personally know and have met some soliders in various branches of the military, (as we all do, either by relation or friendships) and their reasoning for entering the military vary from education or either their father/grandfather served and they were inspired by them. Not a single on that I have known or met joined for any reason you listed, aside from the college education that you mention. One friend in the Army looked into the grants and loans but decided...BRAVELY decided that through the army she could go much farther in her education all the while serving her country.

When I first registered to vote at 18, I registered democrat because my parents were. My dad worked in a union. I now mostly vote republican, except I always vote for Bud Cramer. Why I am talking about politics here is because I remember after 9/11, there wasn't democrat/republican/independant. We were all Americans. We held firemen in highest reguard during that time because of the sacrifice they made on that day to help others in need. They knoew what they were doing when they signed up to become a fireman, and it wasn't because of the categories you have listed here. It's because they are/were brave. The people who sign up for an at risk job are what make the world go round in my opinion. So, it's not them that I don't support, it's the leaders. I voted for Bush for both of his terms, honestly because I don't believe in gay rights and I am pro-life. But now I've decided that the women who chose to abort or those who live a gay lifestyle are their individual right and they will have to deal with that, not the elected official I chose. I'm not against this war in Iraq now, I'm just against how it's going right now. I don't understand that just because WMD's weren't found, that makes people feel it wasn't justified. Just because they weren't found doesn't mean they was not there. Didn't Saddam used mustard gase and other chemical war-fare on his own people..in Iraq? And where you say that Irag would never have hurt us in "a million years" -- I don't know what crystal ball you are gazing into, but since you can forsee that, why don't you tell me what you forsee for these foolish kids who sign up to serve or country..look in there and see if they are still foolishly signing up in "a million years" to protect your grand chilren's, grand children's, grand children's...etc.

The only thing I find that I do have in common with you is that I can sit here on my butt, in the freedoms of my very own home and spout of my, probably unwanted...just like yours, opinion about our country. The difference in us is that I know who I am indebted to for my freedoms.

And finally, you should change your screen name to suit your opinions. Last I checked, Patriot meant the following in the dictionary:

pa·tri·ot /ˈpeɪtriət, -ˌɒt or, especially Brit., ˈpætriət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pey-tree-uht, -ot or, especially Brit., pa-tree-uht] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.
2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.
3. (initial capital letter) Military. a U.S. Army antiaircraft missile with a range of 37 mi. (60 km) and a 200-lb. (90 kg) warhead, launched from a tracked vehicle with radar and computer guidance and fire control.



I really am glad that we have a true Patriot to guide the "Patriot" in definition #3. To any past, present and future troop who might read this: To this mother of three, I applaud you. My little girl is a cancer survivor and during her treatment I quickly learned that kids in other countries didn't survive three months because their families didn't have the freedoms to get to the clinics. They couldn't be out after dark and since it took long for a blood transfusion or long for certain chemotherapies, they would be out past curfew. I had the freedoms to take my daughter for her care and she's a very happy, healthy little girl now in part because of you. Thanks from the bottom of my heart!!!!
Patriot with a brain, I agree with you. And, just saying, metaphore is not expected to match perfectly, It exemplifies a principal, not a series of actual comparisons.
Next, the definition of patriot: great cut and paste, Now, try this definition:
Main Entry: chau·vin·ism
Pronunciation: 'shO-v&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French chauvinisme, from Nicolas Chauvin, character noted for his excessive patriotism and devotion to Napoleon in Théodore and Hippolyte Cogniard's play La Cocarde tricolore (1831)
1 : excessive or blind patriotism -- compare JINGOISM
2 : undue partiality or attachment to a group or place to which one belongs or has belonged
3 : an attitude of superiority toward members of the opposite sex; also : behavior expressive of such an attitude
- chau·vin·ist /-v&-nist/ noun or adjective
- chau·vin·is·tic /"shO-v&-'nis-tik/ adjective
- chau·vin·is·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

I will contend that your brand of Patriotism is EXEMPLARY OF (1) and (2) and you are not a Patriot, but a Chauvanist.
I intended to ask if you had ever asked for anything and been told "NO." Change roller blade to a date with Madonna. Is that less insulting? The meeting you mentioned TOOK PLACE. The Iraq Government SAID NO. The Terrorist Camp existed, it did not exist until AFTER the invasion of Afghanistan, escaped Al Qaeda...escaped from Tora Bora...established that training camp. It was established in the NORTHERN NO FLY ZONE. It was attacked and destroyed AFTER THE INVASION OF IRAQ BEGAN. It was attacked and destroyed by Kurd Militia forces. IT HAD NOT BEEN ATTACKED IN THE TIME IT EXISTED, BECAUSE THE USA DID NOT ATTACK IT.

The First Casualty of war is the Truth.
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by just saying:
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
I know enough to know that many-- hell, MOST of you-- will violently disagree with this, and given the prevailing national state of ignorance of the facts of global politics, it is only natural for you to do so. As a REAL American, I strongly support and respect your right to disagree.

Now, on to my point:<snip>
Why?

Because I not only don't support the Occupation of Iraq-- I don't support the troops, either.

<SNIP>



I agree with some things you say. To me though, a kid on a skateboard, akin to the television show that aired on MTV: Jack***, is like comparing apples and oranges to American Soldiers. As an American, soldiers in the past, present and future are my heros and who I am forever greatful to because I have the freedoms that I have today. Whether they are helping with the evacuation of a hurricane or fighting in a war, they are brave men and women who give their time away from their families so tha I can be with mine. I owe all my freedoms to them, as well as all of my support. I personally know and have met some soliders in various branches of the military, (as we all do, either by relation or friendships) and their reasoning for entering the military vary from education or either their father/grandfather served and they were inspired by them. Not a single on that I have known or met joined for any reason you listed, aside from the college education that you mention. One friend in the Army looked into the grants and loans but decided...BRAVELY decided that through the army she could go much farther in her education all the while serving her country.

When I first registered to vote at 18, I registered democrat because my parents were. My dad worked in a union. I now mostly vote republican, except I always vote for Bud Cramer. Why I am talking about politics here is because I remember after 9/11, there wasn't democrat/republican/independant. We were all Americans. We held firemen in highest reguard during that time because of the sacrifice they made on that day to help others in need. They knoew what they were doing when they signed up to become a fireman, and it wasn't because of the categories you have listed here. It's because they are/were brave. The people who sign up for an at risk job are what make the world go round in my opinion. So, it's not them that I don't support, it's the leaders. I voted for Bush for both of his terms, honestly because I don't believe in gay rights and I am pro-life. But now I've decided that the women who chose to abort or those who live a gay lifestyle are their individual right and they will have to deal with that, not the elected official I chose. I'm not against this war in Iraq now, I'm just against how it's going right now. I don't understand that just because WMD's weren't found, that makes people feel it wasn't justified. Just because they weren't found doesn't mean they was not there. Didn't Saddam used mustard gase and other chemical war-fare on his own people..in Iraq? And where you say that Irag would never have hurt us in "a million years" -- I don't know what crystal ball you are gazing into, but since you can forsee that, why don't you tell me what you forsee for these foolish kids who sign up to serve or country..look in there and see if they are still foolishly signing up in "a million years" to protect your grand chilren's, grand children's, grand children's...etc.

The only thing I find that I do have in common with you is that I can sit here on my butt, in the freedoms of my very own home and spout of my, probably unwanted...just like yours, opinion about our country. The difference in us is that I know who I am indebted to for my freedoms.

And finally, you should change your screen name to suit your opinions. Last I checked, Patriot meant the following in the dictionary:

pa·tri·ot /ˈpeɪtriət, -ˌɒt or, especially Brit., ˈpætriət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pey-tree-uht, -ot or, especially Brit., pa-tree-uht] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.
2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.
3. (initial capital letter) Military. a U.S. Army antiaircraft missile with a range of 37 mi. (60 km) and a 200-lb. (90 kg) warhead, launched from a tracked vehicle with radar and computer guidance and fire control.



I really am glad that we have a true Patriot to guide the "Patriot" in definition #3. To any past, present and future troop who might read this: To this mother of three, I applaud you. My little girl is a cancer survivor and during her treatment I quickly learned that kids in other countries didn't survive three months because their families didn't have the freedoms to get to the clinics. They couldn't be out after dark and since it took long for a blood transfusion or long for certain chemotherapies, they would be out past curfew. I had the freedoms to take my daughter for her care and she's a very happy, healthy little girl now in part because of you. Thanks from the bottom of my heart!!!!
Patriot with a brain, I agree with you. And, just saying, metaphore is not expected to match perfectly, It exemplifies a principal, not a series of actual comparisons.
Next, the definition of patriot: great cut and paste, Now, try this definition:
Main Entry: chau·vin·ism
Pronunciation: 'shO-v&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French chauvinisme, from Nicolas Chauvin, character noted for his excessive patriotism and devotion to Napoleon in Théodore and Hippolyte Cogniard's play La Cocarde tricolore (1831)
1 : excessive or blind patriotism -- compare JINGOISM
2 : undue partiality or attachment to a group or place to which one belongs or has belonged
3 : an attitude of superiority toward members of the opposite sex; also : behavior expressive of such an attitude
- chau·vin·ist /-v&-nist/ noun or adjective
- chau·vin·is·tic /"shO-v&-'nis-tik/ adjective
- chau·vin·is·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

I will contend that your brand of Patriotism is EXEMPLARY OF (1) and (2) and you are not a Patriot, but a Chauvanist.



Wow. Thanks for the calling me a name. Classy. Cut and Paste is also a nice feature on the computer, I find, so that you don’t have to type out everything. Thanks for the compliment on that.

I don’t get why you can call me a chauvinist when I was merely stating my opinion just like you state yours in your post. I see nothing in my post insinuating me otherwise; you’ll have to be more precise on your accusations. I guess since you can assume that I am a chauvinist, I can assume that you don’t agree with me so you turn to juvenile ways. Especially, in terms of metaphorically speaking, EDIQUITE (EdEKit) stands to mean civility, courtesy, decency, and decorum… You are not showing it. You know, don’t throw stones when living in a glass house.

Pertaining to the original post of this thread, I see where your loyalties lie. You know mine. I guess that’s all we can say to each other about that.
No Ed that's actually more insulting...
Ed you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. No I don't have proof of what was said just as you don't know Iraq said no. There IS DOCUMENTATION that training camps existed from 1999 on. That's a bit before. Where is your documentation? I gave you mine. Stop following liberal talking points and give me proof that no training camp existed before Afghanistan. YOU CAN'T because it is already documented that there WAS!
Here's the link again incase you missed it.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!
JAMIE,

If you are so sensitive that a rhetorical question insults you, I am at risk of JUST PLAING KICKING SAND IN YOUR FACE WITH THIS COMMENT.

The Weekly Standard is the VOICE OF THE PROJECT FOR THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY, THE MANAGING EDITOR IS WILLIAM KRISTOL. THE PUBLISHER IS RUPERT MURDOC. Believing what they publish without confirmation from at least two other sources is JUST PLAIN STUPID.
quote:
Originally posted by jaime:
No Ed that's actually more insulting...
Ed you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. No I don't have proof of what was said just as you don't know Iraq said no. There IS DOCUMENTATION that training camps existed from 1999 on. That's a bit before. Where is your documentation? I gave you mine. Stop following liberal talking points and give me proof that no training camp existed before Afghanistan. YOU CAN'T because it is already documented that there WAS!
Here's the link again incase you missed it.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp



WAKE UP AMERICA!!!



First we go to Iraq to get their WMD, THEN after none was found, it was for their liberation and democracy... and NOW all of a sudden it is because of al qaida and Iran... WHICH IS IT????

And Jaime, You may be 35, but you didnt LIVE Vietnam, and this sure smells just like it... I LIVED it.

Another thing... Terrorist camps are EVERYWHERE, Where do you think their training took place to fly into our trade centers??? In Florida... so that is lame, at best... ANOTHER BUSH EXCUSE.
[Smurph for goodness sake get off the WMD's thing. That's old news. We all know the intel was wrong. The reason we are there is because of radical Islamic terrorists. IE: al Qaeda]

HE** NO i will not get off the WMD thing,, Bush and his cronnies may have the likes of you brainwashed and that is your business. We entered into a war based on LIES and the lies continue!
Wrong intel ,,get a grip, if the US officials are going to contiue using that BS,every country in this world had better have a fear,a very real fear of the US.
quote:
Originally posted by smurph:
[Smurph for goodness sake get off the WMD's thing. That's old news. We all know the intel was wrong. The reason we are there is because of radical Islamic terrorists. IE: al Qaeda]

HE** NO i will not get off the WMD thing,, Bush and his cronnies may have the likes of you brainwashed and that is your business. We entered into a war based on LIES and the lies continue!
Wrong intel ,,get a grip, if the US officials are going to contiue using that BS,every country in this world had better have a fear,a very real fear of the US.


YAY Smurph.... You got all that RIGHT!!!! GREAT answer!!!!! Thanks!
Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, speaking on the Senate floor yesterday:


"Madam Secretary, when you set in motion the kind of policy that the president is talking about here, it's very, very dangerous," said Hagel, a decorated Vietnam War combat veteran. "As a matter of fact, I have to say, Madam Secretary, that I think this speech given last night by this president represents the most dangerous foreign policy blunder in this country since Vietnam -- if it's carried out."
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, speaking on the Senate floor yesterday:


"Madam Secretary, when you set in motion the kind of policy that the president is talking about here, it's very, very dangerous," said Hagel, a decorated Vietnam War combat veteran. "As a matter of fact, I have to say, Madam Secretary, that I think this speech given last night by this president represents the most dangerous foreign policy blunder in this country since Vietnam -- if it's carried out."


Thank you, for saving me from saying this. And allowing this statement: THE PRESIDENT'S ADMINISTRATION HAS FAILED. BUSH is now OFFICIALLY A LAME DUCK.

My faith in Ameica's politicians has just gotten CPR, the patient is still critical, but the gravity of the situation is lessening.
Ed, I know exactly who the Weekly Standard is. OH want to know something?... Rupert Murdock is liberal. Don't be so naive to think I get my facts from just one outlet. Indeed that would be stupid. And Lame Duck is any president in their second term.

KS, no I didn't live through Vietnam, but that doesn't mean I don't know what happened. Yeah, the same thing is happening now that happened then. Politicians and the Politically Correct are trying to run a war. That has never worked. But don't imply I don't know what happened in Vietnam. I lost family in that war and I have lost a good friend in this one. So don't tell me I don't know.

Smurph, I'm not even gonna reply to the brainwashed response. You guys think that some of us are brainwashed? You should and step back and really look at some of what you are saying.

If you really think terrorism is gonna leave us alone if we just pack up and leave, you better get your head out of the sand. If we don't take our enemy out there, they will be at our doorstep in the short future AGAIN. If you are so caught up in your little world not to realize that, then may God help you. Because if we stop fighting terrorism now, He's the only that will be able to protect us then.
quote:
If you really think terrorism is gonna leave us alone if we just pack up and leave, you better get your head out of the sand. If we don't take our enemy out there, they will be at our doorstep in the short future AGAIN. If you are so caught up in your little world not to realize that, then may God help you. Because if we stop fighting terrorism now, He's the only that will be able to protect us then.


Go read the transcripts of last nights speech.

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