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I know enough to know that many-- hell, MOST of you-- will violently disagree with this, and given the prevailing national state of ignorance of the facts of global politics, it is only natural for you to do so. As a REAL American, I strongly support and respect your right to disagree.

Now, on to my point:

At a holiday gathering this weekend, I was with friends watching a hilarious montage of sports bloopers-- you know the ones: skateboard accidents, bobsledding nightmares, rodeos where the bull manages to inflict some kind of hilarious injury to the nether parts of the contestant...

As we laughed, I admitted to my friends that I always secretly root for the bull in these events-- it's an innocent animal being exploited for the amusement of a crowd of inbred idiots who SHOULD be at home teaching their kids to read-- so I feel that the bull is eminently more deserving of my sympathies than the redneck who wasn't smart enough to find a more enlightening hobby than risking his own life in the noble pursuit of tormenting more-or-less defenseless animals.

Ditto the kid who decides that it's a nifty idea to ride his skateboard down a fifty-foot handrail, only to perform a spectacular face-plant on the concrete below-- I can't bring myself to feel sorry for a guy who put himself in that position. Read a book, for %$&@'s sake! Enrich yourself a little! Watch the news and be informed! Take up chess, or golf, or join a softball league! Why knowingly engage in an activity for which human beings were not engineered by whatever Creator in whom you choose to believe? I support your right to DO it, but I'm not going to feel terribly sorry for you.

This got me started thinking about the 3,000-plus American kids-- and let's admit it, they're KIDS-- who have now been killed while occupying a foriegn country whose main offense against the United States seems to be an assassination attempt on Bush the Elder, which is of course a dubious claim for which I've never seen a scintilla of evidence.

I was shocked and appalled at the trend over the last few years of people PROTESTING at the funerals of dead American soldiers. It went against every tenet of my personal system of ethics. But you know what? The more I think about it (and that's been a LOT lately), while I still find the protests at funerals to be uncivilized and indecent, I think I now understand it.

Why?

Because I not only don't support the Occupation of Iraq-- I don't support the troops, either.

Most of you will stop reading at this point to rattle off vicious replies that showcase your lack of information, but for those of you who are intrigued enough to continue reading, here's my justification for NOT signing on with the typical anti-war statement that I "oppose the war, but support the troops".

These kids weren't drafted. Vietnam taught us that any future attempt at a draft would be disastrous and lead to another 1960's-style countercultural revolution, and the fat bastards in Washington far prefer our current sedated, ignorant state of patriotic bliss.

Thus, these kids went and SIGNED UP to go occupy (illegally, as far as I can tell) a foriegn nation, knowing full well that they were placing themselves in great bodily harm and potentially wrecking their loving families who might have to stand over their freshly-dug graves crying the way their child "sacrificed" his life for his country.

I call "BS" on this one. Iraq wasn't going to hurt us in a million years-- they wouldn't have been capable of hurting ANYONE without all the poison gas and other assorted death toys that Don Rumsfeld and other American dip***** passed out like lollipops back in the 70's and 80's.

If these soldiers weren't well-informed enough to take think better of taking a highly dangerous job that pays so little that they would qualify for food stamps, than I think perhaps that every time one of them dies from "insurgent" sniper fire or an IED, that's Darwin at work. Weeding out those who aren't savvy, hip, or educated enough to understand the news (maybe they were watching Fox News, but that's only further proves my point-- Fox News has been indisputably proven to be a woefully pathetic source of "news" and is really just a propaganda tool of the Republicans).

It's sad that these dead occupiers leave behind young widows and fatherless children, but in truth, perhaps those children will have a chance at a better life if their moms marry a guy who has the good sense to know the difference between "national duty" and "participating in a calculated effort to destabilize the Middle East, steal a bunch of oil, and avenge the humiliation of Bush the Elder by removing Saddam". Such a stepfather would likely do a far better job at raising the child of a dead American soldier than said soldier would have done had he survived the occupation.

It's nobody's obligation to "serve" America by participating in this war. Iraq was NOT involved in 9/11, but 9/11 WAS the driving emotional force behind MANY of the enlistments. Occupying Iraq is NOT a "service to America" or a "fight for justice"-- it's jackbooted thuggery in which we are stealing natural resources from a nation with a soverign who, while a terrible, brutal bastard, was really as much a legitimate soverign as George W. Bush, and probably his intellectual superior.

Oh, and what about the rapes, murders, and wholesale pillage of the innocent Iraqis who have now been dragged into a vicious civil war? Am I really supposed to go around supporting a gang of murderous, oil-thieving "soldiers" who have already killed FAR more INNOCENT Iraqis than Saddam managed to harm in twenty-odd years of absolutist rule?

So what we've got here is a bunch of kids who either:

1) took a foolish risk to seek adventure, and paid the price, just like the guy who gets his chest caved in by a rodeo bull, or;

2) were so misinformed and misled that they thought they were fighting for "justice" and "freedom", and paid the price for that stupidity and gullibility, or;

3) people who thought it would be neat to tote a machine gun and "avenge" the USA for 9/11 by capping a few and , and paid the price for that stupidity, or;

4) people who thought that it would be a good way to pay for a college education, and paid a much higher price than college could ever have cost. For the record, I was hip enough to know that student loans and grants are easily obtained, and I survive to type this message equipped with a master's degree and my brain still in my head instead of splattered on some Baghdad highway alongside the wreckage of a poorly-armored troop transport. If these kids thought risking their lives to sack a country was the best ticket to a college education, I say to their grieving families: Pell Grants. Stafford Loans. Work studies.

My sympathy, therefore, hereafter goes to the innocents of the world who are being victimized daily by various tyrants, genocidal maniacs, and religious fundamentalists. No longer will I feel compelled to recite the liberal talking point about "opposing the war, but supporting the toops". My support has better and more legitimate causes on which to be expended.

My compassion goes out to all the families of anyone injured or killed in Iraq or any of our other farcical military campaigns-- but it's really more PITY-- pity that those people were placed in a state of grief that could have been avoided by teaching thier children to have a better grasp of the reality of global politics and the inherent brutality of war. These soldiers are for the most part innocent pawns in the Bush Plan to turn the Middle East into an America-friendly golf resort/oil distribution hub, and I regret that they fell into the trap.

But I knew enough to save my family such misery, and those who didn't are not getting my "support" any more. From now on, they're just going to get my sense of regret that they weren't a little smarter.
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Everyone has their own opinion and take on the Iraq situation, but I have to admit that you have some valid points.

Some fairly wild ones, but some are valid.

But who am I to say, I am just an old woman, with an old brain that wants me and "mine" right where I can be with them and see them a lot...

I cannot think with a "WAR" mind, because I think with a Mommy/Grandmommy's mind.... so I guess that leaves me out on any good reply to your post.
You mean that you have turned your back on the young Americans serving in our military? Hey, critize the President, Sec. of defence,any of the policy makers you want. It is your right,and will remain your right, as long as young men and women are willing to put THEIR life on the line to insure that right. The orders they follow are just that ORDERS.

I can only shake my head and pray for the troops,and thank God for their braveness and willingness to serve our country. Would it be to must to ask for you to the same?
Thanks for your reply. I'd be interested to know which points in particular you find "wild"-- I assure you, I'm still half-looking for a way to justify supporting the troops, and am open to suggestions, which is the value of a forum such as this one.

And to clarify something: I don't wish death or dismemberment on ANYONE, especially not our occupiers in Iraq-- I just can't bring myself to "support" them, because to do so would be to legitimize the ridiculous military campaign in which they are used as expendable bullet-magnets.

My Mom and my grandmother would be pretty devastated if something happened to me, but I can assure you that I'm not going to put them in that position because I was reckless, stupid, or misinformed enough to trot off to a place where only violence is understood and where the equally-misinformed natives naturally regard us as invaders and occupiers rather than bringers of justice and democracy.

I have nothing but the highest respect for the men who fought in the World Wars-- which were, in my opinion, struggles which involved great men making sacrifices to beat back a clear and present danger to the United States-- the Nazis were clearly in search of global domination and were clearly involved in genocide and would no doubt have set their sights on America as soon as they had England and Russia under control.

In fact, the young German kids sent off by Hitler to occupy France, the Netherlands, Poland, etc. probably deserve more sympathy than our Iraqi Occupation troops-- they were follwing orders, just like our kids and they were oblivious to their government's REAL motives, just like our kids.
No, they're NOT there for their HEALTH-- just the opposite. And they should know better. They want to do something to promote their health, they should make better decisions-- just like the bullfighters and skateboarders should do.

Think of how many questions you ask before you buy a car or a house. Those kids, with a little parental guidance, might have given a bit more critical thought to the decision they were making to join up with an invading force on a mission to sate our country's thirst for cheap oil and defense spending.

Oh, and, Mom and Grandmom that you are, how 'bout this, Kindred? We could have fed, clothed, educated, and provided medical care for millions of needy AMERICAN children who are neglected, starving, or disadvantaged with the amount of money we've spent prosecuting this war.

So, maybe I'm more compassionate, realistically, than YOU are, and I'm NOT a dad or a grandpa...I'm a human being with a sense of propriety and a realistic grasp of world events who is not simply blinded by anti-Arab sentiments...
Until your second post, I had decided to leave it alone. There is strong evidence that US involvement in both of the World Wars was questionable. I won't get into the reasons as they are quiet complex, but they do exist.

Both the Germans and the Japanese wanted us to stay out of WWII and we were more than happy to jump in the first time.

And how do the German kids deserve more respect? They knew what Hitler wanted. He did not hide his ambitions from anyone. He gained power through centuries of mistrust and hatred. He did not bring any new ideas to the German people, since the leaders of Europe had been using the same ideas since the fall of the Roman Empire.
Shiroshi,

You are correct. I should have said the German kids were "equally deserving" of support and respect.

I agree that our involvement in WWII is still a legitimate source of debate, but it was nonetheless preceded by the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor (coupled with a declaration of war on the US by Japan). Invading Iraq using the justification of 9/11 is like us invading China after Pearl Harbor because, to an American, they all "kinda look the same".

Again, your input is appreciated.
Also, Shiroshi, it should be noted that German propaganda, which they elevated to an art form, never openly admitted the stated goal of murdering six million people, and I'm sure the German kids in the trenches didn't know about the concentration camps-- remember that only a couple dozen Nazis were able to be tried and executed for the genocidal events, clear evidence that the "Final Solution" was not a widely known aim.
How can anyone support the Troops by gleefully sending them off to die a horrific death.
Yes many of the troops are so brainwashed they have no clue of the truth just like probably most kids that age and their parents I might add..
How can you blame them for being ignorant since they grew up hearing the daily propaganda in schools, public and private, about how if "they" kill it's "terror" but if we kill it's bringing "freedom and democracy".
The only way to support the troops is to
DEMAND they come home NOW.
If anyone wants to get the Real Truth about global politics I suggest going to What Really Happened
To Benedict Arnold with a skull full of mush:

You say that "these are kids, 3,000 of them, KIA in Iraq.."

WRONG. One of the KIA's happens to be a personal friend of mine and we served together in the same unit. He was 31 years old when the RPG fired by an Iraqi soldier blew the entire right side of his body off.....yeah...31 is NOT a child my friend.

Second, you can disagree with whatever...but what you state to me is simple treason.

I think you need to take a visit to Iraq and see what it is really like...instead of drinking the Michael Moron and MSM kool aid...It might change your tune.
Brentenman,

Thanks for your service, even if you risked your life for nothing.

I'll concede that some of the dead soldiers from the Iraq campaign are a little older than teenagers, but 31's hardly a ripe old age.

And I hate to dignify your comments about "treason" with a response-- anyone who knows the first thing about the Bill of Rights knows you're a crackpot if you construe ANYTHING I say (apart from perhaps "I support the overthrow the United States Government") as "treason".

Seems like a guy who risked his life to preserve our "freedom" would know better than anyone that free speech is a critical component of the "freedom" you THINK you were fighting for while you killed people for oil and to avenge Daddy Bush.

Thanks for actually supporting my points with your response.

Oh, and I WON'T be visiting Iraq, because I have the sense to stay out of places where me and my concepts of "democracy" and "freedom" are likely to be greeted with an RPG. I'm going to survive and raise well-informed children who will make better decisions and stand a better chance of surviving to live a fruitful life, while meatheads like yourself raise mean-spirited, aggressive, "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" little warmongers who will boldly march off to catch an RPG of their own.

More power to ya.
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Patriot, I know where you coming from but let's also be realistic...Those soldiers over there are doing what you will not do, Right? What happens when a draft occurs will you defect now or later? And yes I do believe if something does not occur otherwise a draft is a good possiblity. Being an "Educated" mom do you think that is what I want for my son. NOPE! Be grateful that there are men willing to do this work so that you may stay home on your educated ***. But your comments are respected and welcome, too.
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PatriotWITHaBrain,

As a combat veteran myself (U.S. Army-Infantry, Air Assault), I can sincerely say on behalf of all that have died and that will die serving this country, despite the popularity (or lack thereof, as the case may be) of the mission, so that you can have the right to say whatever you want, "YOU ARE WELCOME."

Btw, you wouldn't happen to be French would you?
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lookn2it: if any attempt were ever made to institute a draft in this country again, there would be an explosion of grass-roots anarchy on a level previously unimaginable. I don't think anyone would stand for it, and furthermore, a draft would almost be WELCOME because it would place a lot more heat on the man sending troops into battle to be honest about his intentions and the risks involved.

Vandevender: Apart from my appreciation of your Alfred E. Neuman avatar, I must tell you that I think your insinuation that one must be from France in order to disagree with the Occupation of Iraq is a poster boy for American ignorance.
I'm from Alabama and have lived here all my life, but I'll admit to you that all it takes is one look at the French crime rate (a fraction of ours), literacy rate (MUCH higher than ours) and general level of sophisitication in terms of political thought MORE than make up for what folks like yourself seem to be unable to forgive them for: their bold refusal to support the Bush regime just because we (along with the British and many, MANY brave Resistance fighters) drove the Nazis from their land 66 years ago. I'm over it.
Pouring a glass of Merlot and toasting General Abazaid,

PwB
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
No, they're NOT there for their HEALTH-- just the opposite. And they should know better. They want to do something to promote their health, they should make better decisions-- just like the bullfighters and skateboarders should do.

Think of how many questions you ask before you buy a car or a house. Those kids, with a little parental guidance, might have given a bit more critical thought to the decision they were making to join up with an invading force on a mission to sate our country's thirst for cheap oil and defense spending.

Oh, and, Mom and Grandmom that you are, how 'bout this, Kindred? We could have fed, clothed, educated, and provided medical care for millions of needy AMERICAN children who are neglected, starving, or disadvantaged with the amount of money we've spent prosecuting this war.

So, maybe I'm more compassionate, realistically, than YOU are, and I'm NOT a dad or a grandpa...I'm a human being with a sense of propriety and a realistic grasp of world events who is not simply blinded by anti-Arab sentiments...


Okay, first of all, you have me pegged all wrong, you are judging me because I said I DO suppport our troops... and you are judging me on this ONE post that you just created the account to make, guess you are one of those who like to get something started.

Let me tell you, I have OVER 700 comments here, and that is just since 11/14/06, no telling how many the year before then.

I do not support Bush, or Cheney, or the reasoning (if there is any) that we are there, for the most part.... but I SUPPORT THE BOYS/GIRLS who are over there willing to give their lives for us, for YOU.

Maybe they could have made different decisions, but that isn't YOUR call...

Judge me if you want to... but you are going to have to go back so many threads to see WHAT and WHO I really am, and HOW I feel about this.

In all my ranting and raving about this war, I have never ONE SINGLE TIME said I didn't support our Troops.

Now if that doesn't explain it to you, then read back... there are only about 10 pages of threads to read back on, then you shall see my voice.... just dont judge me by YOUR FIRST POST.

Your first post, and what you say, and how you say it is the ONLY way any of us can judge you, sorry about that though, but after you are here for a while, it will be different, we can get to know you better....

Now do you see where I am coming from?
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Mr.Vandevender,

Like Brentenman, I appreciate your service to the country and apologize for Presidents Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon sending you off to fight ten-year-old kids in black pajamas. It was very good of you to do so, and I'm glad you survived the experience to come back home and answer the following questions:

"How did your assistance in brutalizing the populations of Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos make me more free?"

"Was Ho Chi Minh planning to crash planes into the World Trade Center, or was he maybe going to hit us where it REALLY hurts-- with a Rice Embargo?"

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