Skip to main content

I know enough to know that many-- hell, MOST of you-- will violently disagree with this, and given the prevailing national state of ignorance of the facts of global politics, it is only natural for you to do so. As a REAL American, I strongly support and respect your right to disagree.

Now, on to my point:

At a holiday gathering this weekend, I was with friends watching a hilarious montage of sports bloopers-- you know the ones: skateboard accidents, bobsledding nightmares, rodeos where the bull manages to inflict some kind of hilarious injury to the nether parts of the contestant...

As we laughed, I admitted to my friends that I always secretly root for the bull in these events-- it's an innocent animal being exploited for the amusement of a crowd of inbred idiots who SHOULD be at home teaching their kids to read-- so I feel that the bull is eminently more deserving of my sympathies than the redneck who wasn't smart enough to find a more enlightening hobby than risking his own life in the noble pursuit of tormenting more-or-less defenseless animals.

Ditto the kid who decides that it's a nifty idea to ride his skateboard down a fifty-foot handrail, only to perform a spectacular face-plant on the concrete below-- I can't bring myself to feel sorry for a guy who put himself in that position. Read a book, for %$&@'s sake! Enrich yourself a little! Watch the news and be informed! Take up chess, or golf, or join a softball league! Why knowingly engage in an activity for which human beings were not engineered by whatever Creator in whom you choose to believe? I support your right to DO it, but I'm not going to feel terribly sorry for you.

This got me started thinking about the 3,000-plus American kids-- and let's admit it, they're KIDS-- who have now been killed while occupying a foriegn country whose main offense against the United States seems to be an assassination attempt on Bush the Elder, which is of course a dubious claim for which I've never seen a scintilla of evidence.

I was shocked and appalled at the trend over the last few years of people PROTESTING at the funerals of dead American soldiers. It went against every tenet of my personal system of ethics. But you know what? The more I think about it (and that's been a LOT lately), while I still find the protests at funerals to be uncivilized and indecent, I think I now understand it.

Why?

Because I not only don't support the Occupation of Iraq-- I don't support the troops, either.

Most of you will stop reading at this point to rattle off vicious replies that showcase your lack of information, but for those of you who are intrigued enough to continue reading, here's my justification for NOT signing on with the typical anti-war statement that I "oppose the war, but support the troops".

These kids weren't drafted. Vietnam taught us that any future attempt at a draft would be disastrous and lead to another 1960's-style countercultural revolution, and the fat bastards in Washington far prefer our current sedated, ignorant state of patriotic bliss.

Thus, these kids went and SIGNED UP to go occupy (illegally, as far as I can tell) a foriegn nation, knowing full well that they were placing themselves in great bodily harm and potentially wrecking their loving families who might have to stand over their freshly-dug graves crying the way their child "sacrificed" his life for his country.

I call "BS" on this one. Iraq wasn't going to hurt us in a million years-- they wouldn't have been capable of hurting ANYONE without all the poison gas and other assorted death toys that Don Rumsfeld and other American dip***** passed out like lollipops back in the 70's and 80's.

If these soldiers weren't well-informed enough to take think better of taking a highly dangerous job that pays so little that they would qualify for food stamps, than I think perhaps that every time one of them dies from "insurgent" sniper fire or an IED, that's Darwin at work. Weeding out those who aren't savvy, hip, or educated enough to understand the news (maybe they were watching Fox News, but that's only further proves my point-- Fox News has been indisputably proven to be a woefully pathetic source of "news" and is really just a propaganda tool of the Republicans).

It's sad that these dead occupiers leave behind young widows and fatherless children, but in truth, perhaps those children will have a chance at a better life if their moms marry a guy who has the good sense to know the difference between "national duty" and "participating in a calculated effort to destabilize the Middle East, steal a bunch of oil, and avenge the humiliation of Bush the Elder by removing Saddam". Such a stepfather would likely do a far better job at raising the child of a dead American soldier than said soldier would have done had he survived the occupation.

It's nobody's obligation to "serve" America by participating in this war. Iraq was NOT involved in 9/11, but 9/11 WAS the driving emotional force behind MANY of the enlistments. Occupying Iraq is NOT a "service to America" or a "fight for justice"-- it's jackbooted thuggery in which we are stealing natural resources from a nation with a soverign who, while a terrible, brutal bastard, was really as much a legitimate soverign as George W. Bush, and probably his intellectual superior.

Oh, and what about the rapes, murders, and wholesale pillage of the innocent Iraqis who have now been dragged into a vicious civil war? Am I really supposed to go around supporting a gang of murderous, oil-thieving "soldiers" who have already killed FAR more INNOCENT Iraqis than Saddam managed to harm in twenty-odd years of absolutist rule?

So what we've got here is a bunch of kids who either:

1) took a foolish risk to seek adventure, and paid the price, just like the guy who gets his chest caved in by a rodeo bull, or;

2) were so misinformed and misled that they thought they were fighting for "justice" and "freedom", and paid the price for that stupidity and gullibility, or;

3) people who thought it would be neat to tote a machine gun and "avenge" the USA for 9/11 by capping a few and , and paid the price for that stupidity, or;

4) people who thought that it would be a good way to pay for a college education, and paid a much higher price than college could ever have cost. For the record, I was hip enough to know that student loans and grants are easily obtained, and I survive to type this message equipped with a master's degree and my brain still in my head instead of splattered on some Baghdad highway alongside the wreckage of a poorly-armored troop transport. If these kids thought risking their lives to sack a country was the best ticket to a college education, I say to their grieving families: Pell Grants. Stafford Loans. Work studies.

My sympathy, therefore, hereafter goes to the innocents of the world who are being victimized daily by various tyrants, genocidal maniacs, and religious fundamentalists. No longer will I feel compelled to recite the liberal talking point about "opposing the war, but supporting the toops". My support has better and more legitimate causes on which to be expended.

My compassion goes out to all the families of anyone injured or killed in Iraq or any of our other farcical military campaigns-- but it's really more PITY-- pity that those people were placed in a state of grief that could have been avoided by teaching thier children to have a better grasp of the reality of global politics and the inherent brutality of war. These soldiers are for the most part innocent pawns in the Bush Plan to turn the Middle East into an America-friendly golf resort/oil distribution hub, and I regret that they fell into the trap.

But I knew enough to save my family such misery, and those who didn't are not getting my "support" any more. From now on, they're just going to get my sense of regret that they weren't a little smarter.
Last edited {1}
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Everyone has their own opinion and take on the Iraq situation, but I have to admit that you have some valid points.

Some fairly wild ones, but some are valid.

But who am I to say, I am just an old woman, with an old brain that wants me and "mine" right where I can be with them and see them a lot...

I cannot think with a "WAR" mind, because I think with a Mommy/Grandmommy's mind.... so I guess that leaves me out on any good reply to your post.
You mean that you have turned your back on the young Americans serving in our military? Hey, critize the President, Sec. of defence,any of the policy makers you want. It is your right,and will remain your right, as long as young men and women are willing to put THEIR life on the line to insure that right. The orders they follow are just that ORDERS.

I can only shake my head and pray for the troops,and thank God for their braveness and willingness to serve our country. Would it be to must to ask for you to the same?
Thanks for your reply. I'd be interested to know which points in particular you find "wild"-- I assure you, I'm still half-looking for a way to justify supporting the troops, and am open to suggestions, which is the value of a forum such as this one.

And to clarify something: I don't wish death or dismemberment on ANYONE, especially not our occupiers in Iraq-- I just can't bring myself to "support" them, because to do so would be to legitimize the ridiculous military campaign in which they are used as expendable bullet-magnets.

My Mom and my grandmother would be pretty devastated if something happened to me, but I can assure you that I'm not going to put them in that position because I was reckless, stupid, or misinformed enough to trot off to a place where only violence is understood and where the equally-misinformed natives naturally regard us as invaders and occupiers rather than bringers of justice and democracy.

I have nothing but the highest respect for the men who fought in the World Wars-- which were, in my opinion, struggles which involved great men making sacrifices to beat back a clear and present danger to the United States-- the Nazis were clearly in search of global domination and were clearly involved in genocide and would no doubt have set their sights on America as soon as they had England and Russia under control.

In fact, the young German kids sent off by Hitler to occupy France, the Netherlands, Poland, etc. probably deserve more sympathy than our Iraqi Occupation troops-- they were follwing orders, just like our kids and they were oblivious to their government's REAL motives, just like our kids.
No, they're NOT there for their HEALTH-- just the opposite. And they should know better. They want to do something to promote their health, they should make better decisions-- just like the bullfighters and skateboarders should do.

Think of how many questions you ask before you buy a car or a house. Those kids, with a little parental guidance, might have given a bit more critical thought to the decision they were making to join up with an invading force on a mission to sate our country's thirst for cheap oil and defense spending.

Oh, and, Mom and Grandmom that you are, how 'bout this, Kindred? We could have fed, clothed, educated, and provided medical care for millions of needy AMERICAN children who are neglected, starving, or disadvantaged with the amount of money we've spent prosecuting this war.

So, maybe I'm more compassionate, realistically, than YOU are, and I'm NOT a dad or a grandpa...I'm a human being with a sense of propriety and a realistic grasp of world events who is not simply blinded by anti-Arab sentiments...
Until your second post, I had decided to leave it alone. There is strong evidence that US involvement in both of the World Wars was questionable. I won't get into the reasons as they are quiet complex, but they do exist.

Both the Germans and the Japanese wanted us to stay out of WWII and we were more than happy to jump in the first time.

And how do the German kids deserve more respect? They knew what Hitler wanted. He did not hide his ambitions from anyone. He gained power through centuries of mistrust and hatred. He did not bring any new ideas to the German people, since the leaders of Europe had been using the same ideas since the fall of the Roman Empire.
Shiroshi,

You are correct. I should have said the German kids were "equally deserving" of support and respect.

I agree that our involvement in WWII is still a legitimate source of debate, but it was nonetheless preceded by the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor (coupled with a declaration of war on the US by Japan). Invading Iraq using the justification of 9/11 is like us invading China after Pearl Harbor because, to an American, they all "kinda look the same".

Again, your input is appreciated.
Also, Shiroshi, it should be noted that German propaganda, which they elevated to an art form, never openly admitted the stated goal of murdering six million people, and I'm sure the German kids in the trenches didn't know about the concentration camps-- remember that only a couple dozen Nazis were able to be tried and executed for the genocidal events, clear evidence that the "Final Solution" was not a widely known aim.
How can anyone support the Troops by gleefully sending them off to die a horrific death.
Yes many of the troops are so brainwashed they have no clue of the truth just like probably most kids that age and their parents I might add..
How can you blame them for being ignorant since they grew up hearing the daily propaganda in schools, public and private, about how if "they" kill it's "terror" but if we kill it's bringing "freedom and democracy".
The only way to support the troops is to
DEMAND they come home NOW.
If anyone wants to get the Real Truth about global politics I suggest going to What Really Happened
To Benedict Arnold with a skull full of mush:

You say that "these are kids, 3,000 of them, KIA in Iraq.."

WRONG. One of the KIA's happens to be a personal friend of mine and we served together in the same unit. He was 31 years old when the RPG fired by an Iraqi soldier blew the entire right side of his body off.....yeah...31 is NOT a child my friend.

Second, you can disagree with whatever...but what you state to me is simple treason.

I think you need to take a visit to Iraq and see what it is really like...instead of drinking the Michael Moron and MSM kool aid...It might change your tune.
Brentenman,

Thanks for your service, even if you risked your life for nothing.

I'll concede that some of the dead soldiers from the Iraq campaign are a little older than teenagers, but 31's hardly a ripe old age.

And I hate to dignify your comments about "treason" with a response-- anyone who knows the first thing about the Bill of Rights knows you're a crackpot if you construe ANYTHING I say (apart from perhaps "I support the overthrow the United States Government") as "treason".

Seems like a guy who risked his life to preserve our "freedom" would know better than anyone that free speech is a critical component of the "freedom" you THINK you were fighting for while you killed people for oil and to avenge Daddy Bush.

Thanks for actually supporting my points with your response.

Oh, and I WON'T be visiting Iraq, because I have the sense to stay out of places where me and my concepts of "democracy" and "freedom" are likely to be greeted with an RPG. I'm going to survive and raise well-informed children who will make better decisions and stand a better chance of surviving to live a fruitful life, while meatheads like yourself raise mean-spirited, aggressive, "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" little warmongers who will boldly march off to catch an RPG of their own.

More power to ya.
Last edited by PatriotWITHaBrain
Patriot, I know where you coming from but let's also be realistic...Those soldiers over there are doing what you will not do, Right? What happens when a draft occurs will you defect now or later? And yes I do believe if something does not occur otherwise a draft is a good possiblity. Being an "Educated" mom do you think that is what I want for my son. NOPE! Be grateful that there are men willing to do this work so that you may stay home on your educated ***. But your comments are respected and welcome, too.
Last edited {1}
PatriotWITHaBrain,

As a combat veteran myself (U.S. Army-Infantry, Air Assault), I can sincerely say on behalf of all that have died and that will die serving this country, despite the popularity (or lack thereof, as the case may be) of the mission, so that you can have the right to say whatever you want, "YOU ARE WELCOME."

Btw, you wouldn't happen to be French would you?
Last edited by REDNEVEDNAV
lookn2it: if any attempt were ever made to institute a draft in this country again, there would be an explosion of grass-roots anarchy on a level previously unimaginable. I don't think anyone would stand for it, and furthermore, a draft would almost be WELCOME because it would place a lot more heat on the man sending troops into battle to be honest about his intentions and the risks involved.

Vandevender: Apart from my appreciation of your Alfred E. Neuman avatar, I must tell you that I think your insinuation that one must be from France in order to disagree with the Occupation of Iraq is a poster boy for American ignorance.
I'm from Alabama and have lived here all my life, but I'll admit to you that all it takes is one look at the French crime rate (a fraction of ours), literacy rate (MUCH higher than ours) and general level of sophisitication in terms of political thought MORE than make up for what folks like yourself seem to be unable to forgive them for: their bold refusal to support the Bush regime just because we (along with the British and many, MANY brave Resistance fighters) drove the Nazis from their land 66 years ago. I'm over it.
Pouring a glass of Merlot and toasting General Abazaid,

PwB
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
No, they're NOT there for their HEALTH-- just the opposite. And they should know better. They want to do something to promote their health, they should make better decisions-- just like the bullfighters and skateboarders should do.

Think of how many questions you ask before you buy a car or a house. Those kids, with a little parental guidance, might have given a bit more critical thought to the decision they were making to join up with an invading force on a mission to sate our country's thirst for cheap oil and defense spending.

Oh, and, Mom and Grandmom that you are, how 'bout this, Kindred? We could have fed, clothed, educated, and provided medical care for millions of needy AMERICAN children who are neglected, starving, or disadvantaged with the amount of money we've spent prosecuting this war.

So, maybe I'm more compassionate, realistically, than YOU are, and I'm NOT a dad or a grandpa...I'm a human being with a sense of propriety and a realistic grasp of world events who is not simply blinded by anti-Arab sentiments...


Okay, first of all, you have me pegged all wrong, you are judging me because I said I DO suppport our troops... and you are judging me on this ONE post that you just created the account to make, guess you are one of those who like to get something started.

Let me tell you, I have OVER 700 comments here, and that is just since 11/14/06, no telling how many the year before then.

I do not support Bush, or Cheney, or the reasoning (if there is any) that we are there, for the most part.... but I SUPPORT THE BOYS/GIRLS who are over there willing to give their lives for us, for YOU.

Maybe they could have made different decisions, but that isn't YOUR call...

Judge me if you want to... but you are going to have to go back so many threads to see WHAT and WHO I really am, and HOW I feel about this.

In all my ranting and raving about this war, I have never ONE SINGLE TIME said I didn't support our Troops.

Now if that doesn't explain it to you, then read back... there are only about 10 pages of threads to read back on, then you shall see my voice.... just dont judge me by YOUR FIRST POST.

Your first post, and what you say, and how you say it is the ONLY way any of us can judge you, sorry about that though, but after you are here for a while, it will be different, we can get to know you better....

Now do you see where I am coming from?
Last edited by Kindred
Mr.Vandevender,

Like Brentenman, I appreciate your service to the country and apologize for Presidents Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon sending you off to fight ten-year-old kids in black pajamas. It was very good of you to do so, and I'm glad you survived the experience to come back home and answer the following questions:

"How did your assistance in brutalizing the populations of Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos make me more free?"

"Was Ho Chi Minh planning to crash planes into the World Trade Center, or was he maybe going to hit us where it REALLY hurts-- with a Rice Embargo?"
I have been in Iraq (in a civilian capacity) and I agree with Patriot. This should not be happening.

There is no draft, however, when most of the people who are 30 plus years old signed up - there was no ongoing war in Iraq. May of the younger ones just marched down the primrose path with no idea of what would happen. War was a video game. I know - they told me so. I hate that they are losing their lives. I got to know many of them and they are not dumb - they "just drank the kool-aid". Even smart people can be brainwashed.

This senseless war was predicated on lies and false reports. From the very beginning, I couldn't figure out why we were going to war with Iraq and kept hearing the 9/11 terrorist rhetoric and I honestly don't think Bush or anybody else, neither Republican nor Democrat, knows how to get us out.

And something else that I think is a darn shame - civilians are paid much more than the troops they was support in Iraq. Go figure..........
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Talley:
How can anyone support the Troops by gleefully sending them off to die a horrific death.
Yes many of the troops are so brainwashed they have no clue of the truth just like probably most kids that age and their parents I might add..
How can you blame them for being ignorant since they grew up hearing the daily propaganda in schools, public and private, about how if "they" kill it's "terror" but if we kill it's bringing "freedom and democracy".
The only way to support the troops is to
DEMAND they come home NOW.
If anyone wants to get the Real Truth about global politics I suggest going to What Really Happened


Gary, I don't know of anyone who 'gleefully' sent their son or daughter over there... I think most Americans are now catching on to the fact that our troops maybe just maybe pawns, and that is sickening.

But I have to support them, for goodness sake, they are OURs, they are part of all of us, and they are just doing what they are ORDERED to do or face jail/court martial.

Please understand, and if you go back and read other postings, that I have said time and time and time again that for the life of me, I do not know why we are there, but that doesn't mean I don't support the guys and girls that are.

Sorry if I got too riled a while ago... I seem to be doing that a lot lately... I think this war is really fraying a lot of nerves.
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Talley:
How can anyone support the Troops by gleefully sending them off to die a horrific death.
Yes many of the troops are so brainwashed they have no clue of the truth just like probably most kids that age and their parents I might add..
How can you blame them for being ignorant since they grew up hearing the daily propaganda in schools, public and private, about how if "they" kill it's "terror" but if we kill it's bringing "freedom and democracy".
The only way to support the troops is to
DEMAND they come home NOW.
If anyone wants to get the Real Truth about global politics I suggest going to What Really Happened


Gary, I don't know of anyone who 'gleefully' sent their son or daughter over there... I think most Americans are now catching on to the fact that our troops maybe just maybe pawns, and that is sickening.

But I have to support them, for goodness sake, they are OURs, they are part of all of us, and they are just doing what they are ORDERED to do or face jail/court martial.

Please understand, and if you go back and read other postings, that I have said time and time and time again that for the life of me, I do not know why we are there, but that doesn't mean I don't support the guys and girls that are.

Sorry if I got too riled a while ago... I seem to be doing that a lot lately... I think this war is really fraying a lot of nerves.


Also, I would like to add that the Propaganda is right now at an all time high, and it is absolutely amazing at how many people just absorb it as truth. I suggest to anyone on here that is new, to please go back and read some of our other posts and you will see where most of us stand, and we are NOT ignorant nor are we brainwashed... but we still have part of us over in another country that we do NOT own, that we have no ties to, and dangling our troops in front of a culture that will never change.

Read smurph's post this morning with the link to it about the new Iraq president wanting to resign... things are not going good, and now even the propaganda smells like the doo-doo that it is.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
...but I'll admit to you that all it takes is one look at the French...general level of sophisitication in terms of political thought...

Socialism is your idea of sophisticated political thought? Good luck on your move back to France, I wish you and yours all the best...

quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
I must tell you that I think your insinuation that one must be from France in order to disagree with the Occupation of Iraq is a poster boy for American ignorance.

Google: "French military victories"|click "I'm Feeling Lucky" and put the results on the 'poster' next to my name.

Again....YOU ARE WELCOME, Shoals Lover.


.
Last edited by REDNEVEDNAV
Kindred Spirit:

You seem like a wonderful person to me, in all honesty. I'm not sure how my being a newcomer to this forum figures into the validity of my points, but, as I said in my first post, this is something I began thinking about over the last few days and decided it would be worth discussing.

I didn't intend to make any judgements about you as a person-- I don't feel qualified to "judge", only to express my opinion, which I admit is sometimes controversial.

I do feel that the money used to finance the Iraq disaster (which doesn't begin to cover the toll of human anguish) could have been better used feeding, clothing, educating, and providing medical treatment for our OWN CHILDREN than to send our young men off to die for a lie. I shouldn't have suggested that you think otherwise, and I apologize for that.
Well, it takes a lot to shock me silly at this point in my life, but I do believe you've achieved that, PWAB.

You'll find that most people on this forum don't believe entering Iraq was the right thing to do & that we are very much aware we were lied to. But not supporting our troops?!

Okay, lets go back a few years, before 9/11...let's say we have NO troops...that's right, all of them retired & nobody signs up out of fear of a future war. Do you understand what that means?! Any and all enemies of America or just those looking for crimes of opportunity will scream "OH HAPPY DAY! LET'S GET 'EM!" Your kids live safely in America because those troops stand between your kids and danger. The same is true for every American & we better not forget it!
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
Mr.Vandevender,

Like Brentenman, I appreciate your service to the country and apologize for Presidents Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon sending you off to fight ten-year-old kids in black pajamas. It was very good of you to do so, and I'm glad you survived the experience to come back home and answer the following questions:

"How did your assistance in brutalizing the populations of Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos make me more free?"

"Was Ho Chi Minh planning to crash planes into the World Trade Center, or was he maybe going to hit us where it REALLY hurts-- with a Rice Embargo?"


Other than in video games, I haven't brutalized the populations of any country, let alone Vietnam, Cambodia or Laos. I am 36 years old, Shoals Lover....ooops, I mean PatriotWITHaBrain Wink Wink

And, you are still welcome.
Joy,

I thought all those nuclear warheads that Reagan and Company built, which have the destructive power to destroy the entire Earth twenty times over, as well as all those nifty precision-guided bombs, were supposed to keep us from having to deploy infantry...ohmygosh, do you mean that was all just a way to make defense contractors rich, just like Vietnam, just like Iraq?

I won't claim to be a military expert, but seems to me like the only real use for infantry in a foriegn theatre of war these days is for invading countries and waging urban warfare, which is hardly likely to be a remedy for a REAL threat to this country...

Which is precisely what's going on. Iraq is a street-fight, and to my way of thinking, we shouldn't be having to do a lot of urban warfare-- when we're fighting legitimate enemies as opposed to people we just feel the need to conquer. We're not fighting uniformed, identifiable military personnel-- just stupid/scared/superstitious/nationalistic citizens who feel like they're being invaded just like we would if the same were happening here.
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
Well, it takes a lot to shock me silly at this point in my life, but I do believe you've achieved that, PWAB.

You'll find that most people on this forum don't believe entering Iraq was the right thing to do & that we are very much aware we were lied to. But not supporting our troops?!

Okay, lets go back a few years, before 9/11...let's say we have NO troops...that's right, all of them retired & nobody signs up out of fear of a future war. Do you understand what that means?! Any and all enemies of America or just those looking for crimes of opportunity will scream "OH HAPPY DAY! LET'S GET 'EM!" Your kids live safely in America because those troops stand between your kids and danger. The same is true for every American & we better not forget it!


Thanks Joy for eloquently stating what I failed to get across earlier. They are doing what others will not do. Let's at least respect the fact that they are doing what they feel is right. Labeling them all with one swift generalization and excusing their death as Darwin's Theories in Action is a bit crude and not in the least bit civilized. PwB, that is where you fall short. It belittles your intelligence.
And when the enemy knocks on YOUR door & there is no one to call? What then? Will that nuclear warhead stop them?

Forgive me if I'm coming on strong, but the blood pressure shot right out my head when I read your first post. Smiler I think/hope I'm hearing in your posts that you are searching for the truth. I hope you find it.
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
And when the enemy knocks on YOUR door & there is no one to call? What then? Will that nuclear warhead stop them?

Forgive me if I'm coming on strong, but the blood pressure shot right out my head when I read your first post. Smiler I think/hope I'm hearing in your posts that you are searching for the truth. I hope you find it.


Joy, you are such a sweet and kind lady... but you have EVERY right to speak your mind if your blood pressure goes thrugh the roof... You don't have to ask forgiveness for your feelings. I liked what you said.

*note to self, in the future to be more like Joy*
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
lookn2it: if any attempt were ever made to institute a draft in this country again, there would be an explosion of grass-roots anarchy on a level previously unimaginable. I don't think anyone would stand for it, and furthermore, a draft would almost be WELCOME because it would place a lot more heat on the man sending troops into battle to be honest about his intentions and the risks involved.

Vandevender: Apart from my appreciation of your Alfred E. Neuman avatar, I must tell you that I think your insinuation that one must be from France in order to disagree with the Occupation of Iraq is a poster boy for American ignorance.
I'm from Alabama and have lived here all my life, but I'll admit to you that all it takes is one look at the French crime rate (a fraction of ours), literacy rate (MUCH higher than ours) and general level of sophisitication in terms of political thought MORE than make up for what folks like yourself seem to be unable to forgive them for: their bold refusal to support the Bush regime just because we (along with the British and many, MANY brave Resistance fighters) drove the Nazis from their land 66 years ago. I'm over it.
Pouring a glass of Merlot and toasting General Abazaid,

PwB


You really believe that, dont you? I have SEEN the draft firsthand, and I know the government can do anything they want to, anytime they want to, and there isn't anything you can do about it.

TROLLING comes to mind right now.
quote:
Originally posted by taint:
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
Taint:

Could you please fill me in on which of my rights are being defended by the Occupation of Iraq? Please?


Your arrogance is of a level, that my blind support of our men and women in the armed forces,could in no way sway your superior intellect.


Taint is my new hero, Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by REDNEVEDNAV:
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
...but I'll admit to you that all it takes is one look at the French...general level of sophisitication in terms of political thought...

Socialism is your idea of sophisticated political thought? Good luck on your move back to France, I wish you and yours all the best...

quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
I must tell you that I think your insinuation that one must be from France in order to disagree with the Occupation of Iraq is a poster boy for American ignorance.

Google: "French military victories"|click "I'm Feeling Lucky" and put the results on the 'poster' next to my name.

Again....YOU ARE WELCOME, Shoals Lover.


.


OMG, surly even this TRASH is not part of SL's eccentric behavior??? God, I can be such an idiot sometimes, I fell right in. Guess I didn't google that right, because nothing showed up for me.
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
quote:
Originally posted by REDNEVEDNAV:
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
...but I'll admit to you that all it takes is one look at the French...general level of sophisitication in terms of political thought...

Socialism is your idea of sophisticated political thought? Good luck on your move back to France, I wish you and yours all the best...

quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
I must tell you that I think your insinuation that one must be from France in order to disagree with the Occupation of Iraq is a poster boy for American ignorance.

Google: "French military victories"|click "I'm Feeling Lucky" and put the results on the 'poster' next to my name.

Again....YOU ARE WELCOME, Shoals Lover.


.


OMG, surly even this TRASH is not part of SL's eccentric behavior??? God, I can be such an idiot sometimes, I fell right in. Guess I didn't google that right, because nothing showed up for me.


Kindred_Spirit......when you go to google.com and type in French Military Victories and then click the I'm Feeling Lucky button....you get a page asking you, "Did you mean French Military Defeats?" I was just being a smarta** by saying to then put it next to my name on the poster....since I was named the "poster boy for American ignorance" by Shoals Lover
quote:
Originally posted by taint:
K.S. I know better that assume but You know it has been a while since S.L. made a post. And It has been a very long time ago that RED. told us how he came up with his nic.


I cannot remember how Red got the name, may have been before my time, if Red wants me to know he can PM me. And yes, you are right, I think even "I" Have more comments than he does now... this IS weird. I think I shall stay away from newbies for a while because I fall right into the traps... never said I was the brightest star, LOL!!!
quote:
Originally posted by taint:
K.S. I know better that assume but You know it has been a while since S.L. made a post. And It has been a very long time ago that RED. told us how he came up with his nic.


more than that, Shoals Lover was the only one that PM'd me about it and that also actually spelled it out in one his posts. Anyway, can anyone tell that I didn't have a lot to do today?
quote:
Originally posted by REDNEVEDNAV:
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
quote:
Originally posted by REDNEVEDNAV:
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
...but I'll admit to you that all it takes is one look at the French...general level of sophisitication in terms of political thought...

Socialism is your idea of sophisticated political thought? Good luck on your move back to France, I wish you and yours all the best...

quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
I must tell you that I think your insinuation that one must be from France in order to disagree with the Occupation of Iraq is a poster boy for American ignorance.

Google: "French military victories"|click "I'm Feeling Lucky" and put the results on the 'poster' next to my name.

Again....YOU ARE WELCOME, Shoals Lover.


.


OMG, surly even this TRASH is not part of SL's eccentric behavior??? God, I can be such an idiot sometimes, I fell right in. Guess I didn't google that right, because nothing showed up for me.


Kindred_Spirit......when you go to google.com and type in French Military Victories and then click the I'm Feeling Lucky button....you get a page asking you, "Did you mean French Military Defeats?" I was just being a smarta** by saying to then put it next to my name on the poster....since I was named the "poster boy for American ignorance" by Shoals Lover


Yes, I did come up with DEFEATS, and then didnt know what to do from there, LOL. Told ya I wasn't computer savvy. I have been a member here a long time, and I just HATE to have fallen trap to this PatriotwithOUTaBrain,.... but at least I got some 'say-so' in there, lol...

Thanks guys!!!
wow...it's amazing to watch the substance of this discussion disintegrate into accusations that I'm some other guy. I'm NOT Shoals Lover or anyone else who has previously posted in this forum, and, having thought about it for a couple of hours now, I realize that there's just no way to establish this without identifying myself, which I don't care to do any more than the rest of you...if anyone else can think of a way for me to verify that I'm not Shoals Lover (I'm really not sure why I care who you think I am, other than that it distracts from what I was trying to say), let me know in a private message-- I'll do it. I really hate to think that YOU folks think that there could only be One Single Sarcastic Liberal in an area of this size-- guess that really speaks for the area's lack of diversity, huh?

As for my shrewd inference that Rednevedanv's name derives from his surname, it's because-- NEWS FLASH, FOLKS-- it's obviously "Vandevender" spelled backwards. I have a sharp eye for word/number/letter combinations, and wondered what the point of an unpronounceable nic is-- just like I do when I see an incomprehensible personalized auto tag. Furthermore, I used to know an awesome local guitarist named Charles Vandevender, and I think his dad or grandfather was the minister of the Presbyterian church downtown when I was in high school...so, woohoo for me, I somehow trapped myself in an identity conundrum by reversing a few letters to figure out that the guy's last name HAD to be Vandevender...

I can't believe I'm even still typing. But so as not to leave this impossible "discussion" with any murky areas, I'd like to note the following, and you can then all respond about how I'm really Shoals Lover (for the record, having spent most of my life here, I'm FAR from a "Shoals Lover" and can't wait to get to a blue state soon's a job comes through)...

Having said that, I'd like to point out that I don't wish our soldiers harm. I just don't support the decision, particularly by anyone who joined the military after 2003 or so, to do. I think the Iraqi Occupation is costly in terms of money, lives, and loss of credibility in the world, and I've just begun to find it hard to mourn people who make such...bad...decisions.

I likened it to the reckless sports some people pursue like rock climbing or bullfighting-- when some guy falls off a 100-foot rock face dies from blunt force trauma or whatever, the lives of his survivors are impacted and truthfully, it's harder on the survivors than the "victim". And in this case, in my view, the ONLY difference is that the person was pursuing the "sport" under the guise of "serving the nation", and I say: "where's the service, other than the funeral service performed over your prematurely shattered remains that would be much better off above ground, alive, and enjoying life with your family?"

I'm just saying I don't support the mission, the decision to join the military, or the government that sends those kids (and "young adults", Mr. D) off to die FOR NO GOOD CAUSE.

I know quite well that I should never have broached this subject here-- it would be controversial even in a town with a MUCH better track record for free expression of ideas than Florence, and, truthfully, I'm not trying to ram the opinion down anyone's throat. I appreciate those of you who responded kindly or disagreed in a civil manner, and I will get out of your way and let you go back to assuring yourselves that there could only be one well-spoken, witty liberal in town and he spends his time creating alter-egos to reinforce his opinions. Sheesh.

I truly, truly, wish you all the best.
without a brain...you are surely no patriot...your posts reek with entitlement...."as long as I don't have to pay the price, then so be it"....there are always some of your kind around...normally, I would say that you have intellecutally reasoned your position into neutrality and chicken****ism, but I think that would be giving you way too much credit...your apathetic and pathetic ramblings, along with your psuedo-intellectualism, have no credence with anyone who has experience and knowledge of this country's many sacrifices and devotion to duty and freedom for the oppressed...sip your wine, enjoy your beignets, none whose spirit embody courage and honor would welcome your company...
riiiight, Eli...your definition of "chicken****" seems to be my failure to expend young lives for fraudulent "causes" and when our national security is NOT being threatened...

I hate to admit this, because it just gives some of you more ammunition to hurl "educated idiot" slurs at me, but I happen to hold a bachelor's degree in....drum roll....HISTORY!!! I've studied every war in which America has been involved and many that it hasn't, and let me let you in on a little secret, Eli:

What you and I and everyone else on this forum say right now is idle speculation. When the history books are written on this sad chapter in American History, Bush, his cronies, and his war will be exposed as the liars, thieves, and murderers that I and others, including Colin Powell and Gen. John Abazaid to name but two, already know them to be.

You won't be standing there for me to rub it in your face when it becomes accepted fact, but that's not my style anyway. Historians ALWAYS have the last word, and Bush is in for a decline in reputation roughly similar to that of Michael Jackson, except at least THAT freak didn't KILL anyone.
Last edited {1}
like joy my blood pressure was out the roof
but I read this entire thread and i am thinking.
Is what he is saying so far from possibly being a truth,,to a point? I am being serious here now.
I know we all support our troops,but just what is it they REALLY have signed up to do? Think,,really think WAS Saddam a real threat when we invaded Iraq? OH BUT WAIT,it shifted midstream ,,,we are there to liberate the country.
Our very own country had been attacked,,,,,the first time in how many years??????????? And our president is concerning himself with liberating another country? it does not add up

But I STILL support our troops,maybe they did not use good judgement by this guys opnion,BUT thier HEARTS were in a very patriotic place,to defend our country. Maybe they have been brainwashed,,but haven't we ALL been to a certain degree?
I don't think anyone agrees with this war,but this is our country and those are our brave soldiers over there doing what they were ordered to do by our president( like him or not- he is the president of our country).We elected him(maybe?).If we don't like what he is doing we vote him out.This country has a government,which we elect to run things,if we don't like the way they are running things we vote them out.We may not like things the way they are now, but we still live in the best **** country there is.PWOB you sound like you are a coward and are just looking to excuse your cowadice!



)
quote:
So what we've got here is a bunch of kids who either:

1) took a foolish risk to seek adventure, and paid the price, just like the guy who gets his chest caved in by a rodeo bull, or;

2) were so misinformed and misled that they thought they were fighting for "justice" and "freedom", and paid the price for that stupidity and gullibility, or;

3) people who thought it would be neat to tote a machine gun and "avenge" the USA for 9/11 by capping a few and , and paid the price for that stupidity, or;

4) people who thought that it would be a good way to pay for a college education, and paid a much higher price than college could ever have cost. For the record, I was hip enough to know that student loans and grants are easily obtained, and I survive to type this message equipped with a master's degree and my brain still in my head instead of splattered on some Baghdad highway alongside the wreckage of a poorly-armored troop transport. If these kids thought risking their lives to sack a country was the best ticket to a college education, I say to their grieving families: Pell Grants. Stafford Loans. Work studies.


I will grant you that those are all foolish reasons to join the military. However, those aren't the only reasons.

Tradition. There are families that have had people that have served from the the American Revolution until now.

Patriotism. They love their country, and would be more than willing to kill or die to defend it.

Debt. This one you most surely will not get. There are those that feel that pell grants, loans, welfare programs, and the rest, should all be repaid. Not everyone thinks they should take but not give back. True, there are other ways to repay those debts, serving one's country is nothing to be ashamed of.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
Also, Shiroshi, it should be noted that German propaganda, which they elevated to an art form, never openly admitted the stated goal of murdering six million people, and I'm sure the German kids in the trenches didn't know about the concentration camps-- remember that only a couple dozen Nazis were able to be tried and executed for the genocidal events, clear evidence that the "Final Solution" was not a widely known aim.


Before gaining power in Germany, Hitler did allude to the "Aryan" Race as the "Master Race". He did also blame the Jews for most of the finacial woes of Germany and most of Europe for the better part of a millenia. His main political capital was his idea of a pure, World dominating Germany, free of the chains of its (then) economic and stratigic disadvantages.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
Joy,

I thought all those nuclear warheads that Reagan and Company built, which have the destructive power to destroy the entire Earth twenty times over, as well as all those nifty precision-guided bombs, were supposed to keep us from having to deploy infantry...ohmygosh, do you mean that was all just a way to make defense contractors rich, just like Vietnam, just like Iraq?

I won't claim to be a military expert, but seems to me like the only real use for infantry in a foriegn theatre of war these days is for invading countries and waging urban warfare, which is hardly likely to be a remedy for a REAL threat to this country...

Which is precisely what's going on. Iraq is a street-fight, and to my way of thinking, we shouldn't be having to do a lot of urban warfare-- when we're fighting legitimate enemies as opposed to people we just feel the need to conquer. We're not fighting uniformed, identifiable military personnel-- just stupid/scared/superstitious/nationalistic citizens who feel like they're being invaded just like we would if the same were happening here.


Since I'm almost positive there is at least one enemy in Iraq that is smarter than you I'll ask:

If you were Iraqi, Irani, or pretty much any other country's soldier, would you really want to wear a uniform and stand up to the United States Military? Thats how you lose wars. The technological/manpower advantage is too far in our favor. Long gone are the days of two clear cut sides, wearing uniforms and carrying flags, marching into battle. The goal of war has rarely been to kill all of the other people, but to make the cost of contiueing the war too great for the opponent. Either politically, economically or tacticly. The Iraqi, Irani, and Syrian armed forces combined could not have defeated us in a "traditional" war. So now you see a different kind of war, and it is very effective. It worked for the Chinese and Russians in Vietnam and Korea. Strangely enough, we in this country cry foul at this type of war, even when we celebrate it on July 4th.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
lookn2it: if any attempt were ever made to institute a draft in this country again, there would be an explosion of grass-roots anarchy on a level previously unimaginable. I don't think anyone would stand for it, and furthermore, a draft would almost be WELCOME because it would place a lot more heat on the man sending troops into battle to be honest about his intentions and the risks involved.

Vandevender: Apart from my appreciation of your Alfred E. Neuman avatar, I must tell you that I think your insinuation that one must be from France in order to disagree with the Occupation of Iraq is a poster boy for American ignorance.
I'm from Alabama and have lived here all my life, but I'll admit to you that all it takes is one look at the French crime rate (a fraction of ours), literacy rate (MUCH higher than ours) and general level of sophisitication in terms of political thought MORE than make up for what folks like yourself seem to be unable to forgive them for: their bold refusal to support the Bush regime just because we (along with the British and many, MANY brave Resistance fighters) drove the Nazis from their land 66 years ago. I'm over it.
Pouring a glass of Merlot and toasting General Abazaid,

PwB


Is the same low crime rate politically minded France that saw riots and a near revolt in the past year? The same France that is suffering from soaring unemployment that the rioters were angry for the only available solution to? The French have backed into thier own form of socialism but failed to solve any of the real problems associated with it. Free college, health care, jobs for life. High unemployment, radicalism, and some of the highest taxes on the planet. Rampant racial strife as well. I tire of typing this list of France's woes, move along now.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
riiiight, Eli...your definition of "chicken****" seems to be my failure to expend young lives for fraudulent "causes" and when our national security is NOT being threatened...

I hate to admit this, because it just gives some of you more ammunition to hurl "educated idiot" slurs at me, but I happen to hold a bachelor's degree in....drum roll....HISTORY!!! I've studied every war in which America has been involved and many that it hasn't, and let me let you in on a little secret, Eli:

What you and I and everyone else on this forum say right now is idle speculation. When the history books are written on this sad chapter in American History, Bush, his cronies, and his war will be exposed as the liars, thieves, and murderers that I and others, including Colin Powell and Gen. John Abazaid to name but two, already know them to be.

You won't be standing there for me to rub it in your face when it becomes accepted fact, but that's not my style anyway. Historians ALWAYS have the last word, and Bush is in for a decline in reputation roughly similar to that of Michael Jackson, except at least THAT freak didn't KILL anyone.


Unless you are predicting a fall of the United States, the Historians will side with the official version. Historians don't write the truth, only the winning version of it. Had we lost WWII, the history of Pearl Harbor would have been: The US for the only time in its history moved its entire Pacific fleet into the same place, a move of seeming intent to attack, gathering of the strengths if you will.

Even now, speaking of nuclear weapons we fail to speak of the first victims, the US did do human testing before Japan. And what about the forced repatriation of Russians fleeing from Stalin? Or are you saying History in all of its Perfection looks down on Roosevelt for those crimes? I guess he wasn't involved in such events. Try looking up Andrey Vlasov and read a bit about the 2,700 Cossacks. They surrendered to the US.

How about Eisenhower and the three presidents after him and their little excursion to Vietnam? Eisenhower is at worst thought of as "lackluster", we won't mention Kennedy, and of course Nixon. Who would have thought that two of the most fondly remembered post-WWII presidents would be responsible for that war? So perhaps Bush ain't got as much to worry about as you would hope.
Last edited {1}
To clarify any past, present or future misunderstandings, 22.250/taint/themax (that is correct I think - correct me if you were not originally themax), he explained the choice of the screen name 'taint' to us, something anyone who saw the vulgar definition on that very same thread would know. It was not a vulgar choice & he was shocked to know it had that meaning. It was an innocent mistake. 'Taint' is southern/redneck/short for 'it ain't'. Until Uber pointed out the other definition, I had never heard that before. Anyway, yeah, I'm sticking my neck out again, but I must be a glutton for punishment or something. Smiler

No offense to you, PWaB...I don't know you or any hidden agenda you may or may not have. In fairness, you could say the same for us as well. I hope you are simply looking for some answers and arguing this through to find the truth. However, I do feel your comments about 22.250 did not contribute to the discussion & were unnecessary & out of line. I know we get all get ticked off sometimes, but generally it's a good idea to wait a few minutes before sending if you are angry. Just a thought. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:
quote:
just bored and unable to resist the French comment.



I have a French army rifle for sale...

never used, only dropped once. Big Grin


Mott, after I got everything straightened out, IF I got it all straightened out, lol... I AM the one who did say it was a Trolling post... and if you remember, YOU are the one who told me what a trolling post was, and there is nothing hypocritical about it. It just threw me for a while.

And just where do you get "Trolling comes to mind" that says that I am hypocritical? You don't make sense because YOU were the one who brought trolling out in a post not too long ago, and stupid me had to ask you what it was.

Never again, not when it is thrown back into my face...
Getting back to subject, Patriot, I would like to state that your arrogance is overshadowing your intelligence. You are choosing to pigeonhole a whole group of people. You insist on "Civilized" thought, yet you discuss the 3,000 or more deaths in our military as though it's Darwinism at its best. Again I would ask are you willing to defect now or later when these "stupid" (your words not mine) ranks are depleted? Be glad and appreciative for their ability and willingness to sacrifice so that you may obtain your job in a place with more liberal thought so that you can continue to condescend others.
Joy,
Having, as you suggested, taken a few minutes to think before hitting 'send', I have come up with the following:

1) I initiated a thread concerning a matter of personal exploration and seeking the thoughts of others-- I knew it would be controversial, but that doesn't exactly mean it's not worth disucssing...

2) I was quickly dressed down, politely, by you for coming right in off the bat with, shall we say, a strong personality...I accepted the criticism, and said nothing that could be construed as 'vulgar' or 'offensive', in my understanding of the terms...

3) Along with Rednevednav, "T%$nt" proceeded to pile on with accusations that I was another poster obviously familiar to you all on the board masquerading in order to express an opinion that he or she was not willing to express under his or her usual screen name...

4) At that point, I saw no reason to point out that, in addition to essentially trying to distract the forum from any valid points that may have been raised by my conversation, I was being dressed down and accused of identity fraud by someone with a really, really vulgar nickname...to which I quite rightly took exception...

5) I don't know "T%$nt", but I'm in my early thirties, and I've lived in Florence all my life except for a brief spell, and I can assure you that the aforementioned slang term has been around for as long as I can remember...it's the kind of thing snickered about by schoolkids on playgrounds...

6) Despite what you, or "Ta&^t", or anyone else may say in his defense, I simply choose not to believe that he chose the nic for the reasons he gives-- it doesn't BEGIN to add up-- I think he's actually sophisitcated enough to have intended the usage of the word to be a cute double-entendre (figure of speech with two meanings, for all you Francophobes) and that he was humiliated when I called him out on it. The old adage about folks who reside in glass houses not throwing stones seems to apply here...

In closing, as I inferred in a post last night, I've completely lost enthusiasm for this forum as a place of high-minded disucssion-- maybe I expected too much, but my years of college and grad school conditioned me to the civilized--if controversial-- exchange of ideas, and never, ever, EVER did I encounter the kind of pigheaded resistance to an IDEA that I've seen from some of the people on this forum...

I should have realized that the anonymity of the "Interwebs" allows for baseless accusations of "trolling" and "identity fraud", which means that I should probably stick to publishing my ideas in legitimate publications and not in an anonymous forum such as this one. Believe it or not, I get paid to write professionally (though let me hasten to assure you that it is NOT for the TimesDaily, which I view as a miserable, lazy rag that serves as a propaganda tool for Bobby Irons and UNA), and I should never have stepped outside the bounds of writing to which I can proudly affix my own by-line.

I'm not saying I'll never be back to this forum-- I feel a certain obligation to monitor future discussions about my own previous comments-- but I will NOT be initiating any new threads nor will I be much inclined to respond to others, unless it is to defend what I've already said.

Again, your civility and grace are appreciated-- you seem like a wonderful person, and perhaps there will come a time when I will move past my "angry young man" stage and be able to excercise more restraint like yourself-- but I kinda hope I don't...

yours,
b
"PWAB"
Lookn2it:

I'm sorry if the mere suggestion of Darwinism is an outright offense and renders me automatically guilty of condescencion.

I would be very interested to know your opinion on how the 'sacrifice' of our 3,000 young people has or will IN ANY WAY directly affect my own life. I was never saying we don't need a military or that I'm opposed to any and all military action-- I oppose the CURRENT military action, along with a legion of military officers and global experts, including Gen. John Abazaid among countless others.

You keep implying I should be grateful-- but for what? For the rape, murder, torture, and destruction that has caused the formerly-balanced budget (thanks, Clinton!) to soar into a massive defecit (thanks, W!)?

Should I somehow take comfort in the fact that the world is beginning to quite rightly view the United States as a gang of bullying thugs?

Should I divest myself of my carefully-considered agnosticism and become religious so that I could earnestly thank some deity for the dedication of nineteen-year-olds missing limbs (or dead) because they were sent into urban combat woefully under-supplied with armored vehicles, body armor, etc?

I respect your opinion, but I'm still not sure exactly what it is.
I am of the opinion that we have overstepped our boundaries in Iraq. We are woefully mistaken to think there can ever be peace between the Middle Eastern Countries. I do think you are correct in that there are numerous hidden agendas and some that may never come to light. However, I find it hard to condemn and excuse their deaths and dismemberment as just some form of stupidity on their part.
People make their own choices true. But the reasons you stated for their decisions to join the military were just vastly understated. It would be great if life was just as simple as black and white, smart and dumb, etc. my point is that whether agreed on by you or not there are numerous reasons why someone chooses their path. For no other reason that right to be able to choose should be respected - not ridiculed.
I don't want to argue with you. I would just like you to see that as civility calls for- understanding rationale that you, yourself, can't fathom should still be respected as a single independent decision. Not just a sweeping generaliztion of a whole brigade or military unit. Simply stated I am just asking you to rethink your statment. It is a generic reference to a very large group of people that you know nothing about other than they made a decision based on reasons you don't know and don't understand and don't agree with. If I read your statements correctly you are basically saying "OK, they are too dumb to realize that they are Lemmings sent off to commit suicide. So, according to the laws of nature let the strongest and smartest survive. No big deal to me." I think its the apathy on your part for them to make your point about the war that both angers me and scares me at the same time.
PWaB, IMO, you are not a troll. If I understand the definition of a troll, a troll cannot be reasoned with & doesn't care what anybody else thinks. Their sole purpose is to shock, attack, cause controversy and instigate fights among forum members. Any attempts to fix them or be their friend results in another attack. Now, this is my understanding after looking it up some time back. You all can correct me if I am mistaken. You do not fit that description. Some of us, including myself, are new to this troll business.

I vehemently disagree with you regarding our troops, but I do agree with several of your points...such as our government's motives for entering Iraq being self-seeking.
Lookn2it,

I thank you for your response...

I'm at a bit of a loss as to how one can discuss something as vast as "war", "military", "soldiers", etc., without engaging in generalization. Surely I can't be expected to examine the motives of each individual soldier?

Furthermore, most folks don't hesitate to generalize in such statements as "they are fighting hard for our country and are good people", do they?

Thus, it seems a little like there's a double standard at work here in which it's wrong to engage in generalization when criticizing, but A-OK to do so when praising, mourning, glorifying, etc.

"We Support Our Troops"= generalization that would seem to imply that we support, for example, the four brave young men who heroically held down and systematically raped-- vaginally and anally-- a 14-year-old and then murdered her and her entire family and set their house on fire. I'm sure nobody here applauds that act; in fact, I'm sure that my mention of it further enrages those I've already infuriated. But it happened.

Moreover, if you could point to ANY quote of mine in which I act like it's "no big deal", I would be grateful-- I'm mad as hell about this waste of life, and I think I care more about those kids than those of you who "support" their mission-- I wish every one of them had never been duped by recruiters/advertising/guidance counselors/testosterone/ignorance/ in the first place and sent over there. I don't want them dead. I was just saying that I'm losing the ability to "support" a decision to join in on this fraudlent military campaign-- and I probably should have clarified earlier on that I was referring more to those who joined, say, after 2003 and 2004.

Anyway, I'm sure that in real life, you and I probably see eye-to-eye more than you would imagine-- you are reasonable and obviously NOT in the world of denial that much of the country inhabits...I'm sorry if I've come across as condescending or arrogant, but it's pretty hard to express one's personality in print, and I think I tend to ratchet up the sarcasm a little because, frankly, I was trying to get a point across that I knew was going to be at odds with prevailing sentiment.

I'm kind of a 'prevailing sentiment be da*ned' sort of guy. "Everyone thinks so" has never sufficed as the basis for my own worldview, and never will-- in fact, if most people think something, it's probably bogus as hell and immediately suspect.

As I said above, I'm really just monitoring this post at this point to see it through to its conclusion-- I've had the revelation that this kind of anonymous message board is a flawed concept from the beginning, at least as regards political discourse.

I'll be glad to address any further points you have, and I thank you again for your participation in the discussion.
Well,

I have come to a simular conclusion Patriot. But with an asterisk. Bush invaded Iraq with CLINTON'S ARMY. Those men and women, People like Lori Piestewa and Jessica Lynch volunteered their service to this country in a time of relative peace, trained hard and learned the methods of war to DEFEND AND PROTECT THE UNITED STATES. They Got HIJACKED. Lori died to Save Jessica on a battlefield that did not exist before the day she died. Before that battle was fought TWO Generals, Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff resigned rather than order troops into IRAQ, and one of them had ordered troops into Afghanistan. Lori was a lowly Specialist in a Maintenance Battalion she had a contract to fulfill, and two fatherless children.
But the term of enlistment is four years. The enlisted person in the Military today either started out for a career in the Armed forces and extended his or her contract before the war, OR they volunteered to fight this war. THOSE VOLUNTEERS FOR WAR ARE PLAIN AND SIMPLE MERCENARIES. No one in his right mind supports MERCENARIES FIGHTING A WAR OF AGGRESSION.

So, count this liberal as one who SUPPORTS a strong DEFENSIVE military, AND ADAMANTLY OPPOSES MERCENARY ARMIES MARCHING TO CONQUEST. Ours or Theirs, IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. I will gladly take up arms AGAIN, to defend this country. But, like Lt Ehren Watada, I would not go to fight in Iraq for love nor money.
Thanks, EdEKit-- and right on. I'm all for having the best defensive army in the world, and I really regret not making it clear from the beginning that my comments-- and lack of support-- had more to do with recent enlistees and nothing to do with those who had reasonable cause to believe that they would only be deployed in an honest, realistic, judicious manner when they signed up.

Truthfully, it's the same principle that makes me very irritated when I hear that so-and-so percentage of American high school seniors can't find the country or their home state on a map. This, to me, seems like a logical extension of that same problem-- high school kids think the news is irrelevant to them, thus do not take up the slack left by the public education system by watching the news, reading books, etc. That was the basis of my use of the dreaded D-Word (Darwinism) that I appear to have used somewhat loosely given the gravity of the subject.

(steps up to podium, clears throat)
Hey parents! Talk to your kids now and then! Don't let them be raised by XBox or whatever the current trendy gaming system is! Encourage independent reading, FROM PRESCHOOL FORWARD! Don't raise another generation of dupes! Encourage critical thinking! Discuss the news over dinner!

(steps down, loosens tie)

Maybe I should have said all that in the first post, instead of what I DID say. But it would likely would have sunk to the bottom of the tank for lack of sparkle.

In hindsight, it might also have been equally thought-provoking if I'd asked everyone if they would advise their own child to join the military upon graduation this spring. The answers might have been more illuminating had I not used the "danger sports" metaphor...
EdEKit, you have food for thought there. But in all honesty,If one signs up for military duty, even in peace time. There is always the possibility of a conflict begining somewhere in the world, were we have a duty, maybe even a treaty in place that includes our assistence.
That is why our armed forces train for war not peace, all of that aside. Teddy said it best many years ago
" walk softly, but carry a big stick"

And before you ask,

Yes, we may not be walking as softly as we could.
Although I'm going to leave you this nasty little response it does not mean I am poorly educated on the subject. That being said,

I'm not entirely certain you would oppose such a death however. I doubt they would choose to even take you as you are the closest thing to an ally that these guys have in the US and whether you believe it or not they ARE OUR enemies. As for your rant about people expanding their mind through books.. Why don't you think about trying out some physical activities... Not everyone wants to be some egghead reject.. Comprende? You don't really want everyone who's currently skateboarding in some park somewhere (physical activity) to go home and read a book while eating egg whites on toast and waiting for "Murder She Wrote" to come on, do you? No. Because then everyone would be as dull, boring, and weak as you are. I understand that strengths are not limited to muscles and endurance, but strong mind and body do not come from reading books alone. I submit to you that you are in fact the limited mind. Not necessarily in the manner which you are referencing in your post, but limited from expanding outward from your daily routine. With no respect whatsoever, I do request that you quit humping large trees and other plant life, animals in various sizes, and small children. Take a step outside your boring little homely box and try having some fun outside. You see, learning while reading books can be helpful in many ways, but the limitation is the fact that you're reading the words of another person.. You are learning from someone else. Physical activities can be trained, but pretty much everything you do, especially in skateboarding for example, is self taught. Instead of reading or listening to some political propaganda all day long and THINKING you know what the hell you're talking about. All you REALLY know is what other people are talking about. So, I say screw your bright idea and empty ignorant rant about educating one's self through the perspectives of others. Almost EVERYONE is biased in some manner, so how can you trust what they say? Take me for example..

But just because you trust that doesn't mean you should believe me if I say "There are WMDs in Iraq" or "Thousands of teenagers have been killed because of Bush"... Both of what I just said are completely opposite sides of the spectrum and I don't believe either.. Facts are this: Soldiers who joined the US military at whatever age did so of their own free will and choosing and many have been killed in action. There were no WMDs (to our knowledge) in Iraq, but we did liberate a country under the rule of a tyrant dictator responsible for the deaths of millions. The people have since all but plunged into civil war. We should not be the world police, but we have every right to make preemptive strikes against our enemies and those who harbor and support them. There was probably some bad blood between Iraq and the US that played a part in choosing that country for attack. They wouldn't comply with inspectors after all (or atleast so we've been told- see what I'm sayin). In the long run we now have an established presence in the mid-east where we can launch future assaults on terrorist nations. Our presence there also draws fire off of the civilian population here in the US... They'll try to attack us here, but priority is to defend their bases and permanent positions. OBVIOUSLY lots of facts and other crap you hear on the news, internet, weird movies by Michael Moore(s), and in books you read can be right or wrong. Right according to some; wrong according to others. Regardless what you believe you should NEVER EVER NOT SUPPORT YOUR OWN TROOPS!! Be angry, disagree, HELL, PROTEST all you want about the war, the leadership directing it, and the circumstances prolonging it, but when you see an American Soldier at the airport coming home to his family, or drive by a funeral service for one of our fallen brothers you had better take your hat off and put your hand over your heart and THANK GOD for every waking moment he's blessed you with in this GREAT NATION. At that point I want you to remember that freedom isn't free and the reason nations like ours now strike preemptively at regimes like Saddam's is because appeasement failed in the past and will fail again. Give diplomacy all the time it needs, but when it comes time to go to it then GO TO IT. You support your troops and you support your country EVERYDAY for the rest of your life because it is YOURS. The only reason you ever hear anything on TV about politics is because they want you to vote a certain way next election and they'll twist it any way they can. All that matters in the end is that our country prevails because regardless of how you feel about anything the United States is a beacon of hope that the world may live in freedom some day. The freedoms I so enjoy here in the US may some day be enjoyed in Iraq. That to me is worth everything we've given and more. I guess I'm just a "the ends justify the means" type guy. I can only hope that it is not simply their religion which causes peace to fail. The End.

-Bear
Last edited by Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by tomcat_176:
Although I'm going to leave you this nasty little response it does not mean I am poorly educated on the subject. That being said,

I'm not entirely certain you would oppose such a death however. I doubt they would choose to even take you as you are the closest thing to an ally that these guys have in the US and whether you believe it or not they ARE OUR enemies. As for your rant about people expanding their mind through books.. Why don't you think about trying out some physical activities... Not everyone wants to be some egghead reject.. Comprende? You don't really want everyone who's currently skateboarding in some park somewhere (physical activity) to go home and read a book while eating egg whites on toast and waiting for "Murder She Wrote" to come on, do you? No. Because then everyone would be as dull, boring, and weak as you are. I understand that strengths are not limited to muscles and endurance, but strong mind and body do not come from reading books alone. I submit to you that you are in fact the limited mind. Not necessarily in the manner which you are referencing in your post, but limited from expanding outward from your daily routine. With no respect whatsoever, I do request that you quit humping large trees and other plant life, animals in various sizes, and small children. Take a step outside your boring little homely box and try having some fun outside. You see, learning while reading books can be helpful in many ways, but the limitation is the fact that you're reading the words of another person.. You are learning from someone else. Physical activities can be trained, but pretty much everything you do, especially in skateboarding for example, is self taught. Instead of reading or listening to some political propaganda all day long and THINKING you know what the hell you're talking about. All you REALLY know is what other people are talking about. So, I say screw your bright idea and empty ignorant rant about educating one's self through the perspectives of others. Almost EVERYONE is biased in some manner, so how can you trust what they say? Take me for example..

But just because you trust that doesn't mean you should believe me if I say "There are WMDs in Iraq" or "Thousands of teenagers have been killed because of Bush"... Both of what I just said are completely opposite sides of the spectrum and I don't believe either.. Facts are this: Soldiers who joined the US military at whatever age did so of their own free will and choosing and many have been killed in action. There were no WMDs (to our knowledge) in Iraq, but we did liberate a country under the rule of a tyrant dictator responsible for the deaths of millions. The people have since all but plunged into civil war. We should not be the world police, but we have every right to make preemptive strikes against our enemies and those who harbor and support them. There was probably some bad blood between Iraq and the US that played a part in choosing that country for attack. They wouldn't comply with inspectors after all (or atleast so we've been told- see what I'm sayin). In the long run we now have an established presence in the mid-east where we can launch future assaults on terrorist nations. Our presence there also draws fire off of the civilian population here in the US... They'll try to attack us here, but priority is to defend their bases and permanent positions. OBVIOUSLY lots of facts and other crap you hear on the news, internet, weird movies by Michael Moore(s), and in books you read can be right or wrong. Right according to some; wrong according to others. Regardless what you believe you should NEVER EVER NOT SUPPORT YOUR OWN TROOPS!! Be angry, disagree, HELL, PROTEST all you want about the war, the leadership directing it, and the circumstances prolonging it, but when you see an American Soldier at the airport coming home to his family, or drive by a funeral service for one of our fallen brothers you had better take your hat off and put your hand over your heart and THANK GOD for every waking moment he's blessed you with in this GREAT NATION. At that point I want you to remember that freedom isn't free and the reason nations like ours now strike preemptively at regimes like Saddam's is because appeasement failed in the past and will fail again. Give diplomacy all the time it needs, but when it comes time to go to it then GO TO IT. You support your troops and you support your country EVERYDAY for the rest of your life because it is YOURS. The only reason you ever hear anything on TV about politics is because they want you to vote a certain way next election and they'll twist it any way they can. All that matters in the end is that our country prevails because regardless of how you feel about anything the United States is a beacon of hope that the world may live in freedom some day. The freedoms I so enjoy here in the US may some day be enjoyed in Iraq. That to me is worth everything we've given and more. I guess I'm just a "the ends justify the means" type guy. I can only hope that it is not simply their religion which causes peace to fail. The End.

-Bear


Best

Post

Ever

Big Grin
Last edited by Former Member
Patriot wrote:
"Thus, these kids went and SIGNED UP to go occupy (illegally, as far as I can tell) a foriegn nation, knowing full well that they were placing themselves in great bodily harm and potentially wrecking their loving families who might have to stand over their freshly-dug graves crying the way their child "sacrificed" his life for his country."

==================================================

I think there was a standing Army in place long before we went into the ME. So that might cause you to rethink that statement. I'l agree that there are some "cowboys" who signed up after 911 kick some muzzy arse. You can go to youtube or google video and see some evidence of that, and I do agree that most soldiers killed in Iraq are eulogized by their families with the "he died for his country" thing are misguided. I'm sure they believe it and it helps them justify their loved one being senselessly extinguished for a noble cause.

To keep things in perspective, almost all war is fought over religion, power or resources or control of resources. This one is no different.
quote:
Originally posted by themax:
EdEKit, you have food for thought there. But in all honesty,If one signs up for military duty, even in peace time. There is always the possibility of a conflict begining somewhere in the world, were we have a duty, maybe even a treaty in place that includes our assistence.
That is why our armed forces train for war not peace, all of that aside. Teddy said it best many years ago
" walk softly, but carry a big stick"

And before you ask,

Yes, we may not be walking as softly as we could.

themax,
I was a volunteer soldier, before Vietnam, and After Korea, I resigned a competitive appointment to the USMC in 1962. I won that appointment by being a very good soldier, a very good intellect, and a willingness to serve. I resigned, and served out my enlistment as an E 4.
I can only speak for myself, and a very few others who have shared their thoughs with me. I went into the service willingly, with the full knowledge that if we were attacked I would be called on to repell the attackers.
On a day in August of 1961 I stood on the German side of the Iron Curtain and waited for a Soviet Tank to cross the line, armed with an M 1 rifle, 16 bullets, and a standard fatigue cap.
I still KNOW why I was there. A little over a year later, I stood, ready, and while TERRIFIED at the prospect, and willing to invade Cuba as JFK ended the most dangerous confrontation between superpower in ANYONE'S lifetime. I STILL KNOW WHY I WAS THERE.
The US military is a HUGE stick, and we need it. My personal opinion is the invasion of Iraq IS A DELIBERATE MISUES OF THE DEFENSE FORCES OF THE USA.
And I agree with you. The reason for using them is to control the production and transportation of OIL.
quote:
Originally posted by tomcat_176:
Although I'm going to leave you this nasty little response it does not mean I am poorly educated on the subject. That being said,

I'm not entirely certain you would oppose such a death however. I doubt they would choose to even take you as you are the closest thing to an ally that these guys have in the US and whether you believe it or not they ARE OUR enemies. As for your rant about people expanding their mind through books.. Why don't you think about trying out some physical activities... Not everyone wants to be some egghead reject.. Comprende? You don't really want everyone who's currently skateboarding in some park somewhere (physical activity) to go home and read a book while eating egg whites on toast and waiting for "Murder She Wrote" to come on, do you? No. Because then everyone would be as dull, boring, and weak as you are. I understand that strengths are not limited to muscles and endurance, but strong mind and body do not come from reading books alone. I submit to you that you are in fact the limited mind. Not necessarily in the manner which you are referencing in your post, but limited from expanding outward from your daily routine. With no respect whatsoever, I do request that you quit humping large trees and other plant life, animals in various sizes, and small children. Take a step outside your boring little homely box and try having some fun outside. You see, learning while reading books can be helpful in many ways, but the limitation is the fact that you're reading the words of another person.. You are learning from someone else. Physical activities can be trained, but pretty much everything you do, especially in skateboarding for example, is self taught. Instead of reading or listening to some political propaganda all day long and THINKING you know what the hell you're talking about. All you REALLY know is what other people are talking about. So, I say screw your bright idea and empty ignorant rant about educating one's self through the perspectives of others. Almost EVERYONE is biased in some manner, so how can you trust what they say? Take me for example..

But just because you trust that doesn't mean you should believe me if I say "There are WMDs in Iraq" or "Thousands of teenagers have been killed because of Bush"... Both of what I just said are completely opposite sides of the spectrum and I don't believe either.. Facts are this: Soldiers who joined the US military at whatever age did so of their own free will and choosing and many have been killed in action. There were no WMDs (to our knowledge) in Iraq, but we did liberate a country under the rule of a tyrant dictator responsible for the deaths of millions. The people have since all but plunged into civil war. We should not be the world police, but we have every right to make preemptive strikes against our enemies and those who harbor and support them. There was probably some bad blood between Iraq and the US that played a part in choosing that country for attack. They wouldn't comply with inspectors after all (or atleast so we've been told- see what I'm sayin). In the long run we now have an established presence in the mid-east where we can launch future assaults on terrorist nations. Our presence there also draws fire off of the civilian population here in the US... They'll try to attack us here, but priority is to defend their bases and permanent positions. OBVIOUSLY lots of facts and other crap you hear on the news, internet, weird movies by Michael Moore(s), and in books you read can be right or wrong. Right according to some; wrong according to others. Regardless what you believe you should NEVER EVER NOT SUPPORT YOUR OWN TROOPS!! Be angry, disagree, HELL, PROTEST all you want about the war, the leadership directing it, and the circumstances prolonging it, but when you see an American Soldier at the airport coming home to his family, or drive by a funeral service for one of our fallen brothers you had better take your hat off and put your hand over your heart and THANK GOD for every waking moment he's blessed you with in this GREAT NATION. At that point I want you to remember that freedom isn't free and the reason nations like ours now strike preemptively at regimes like Saddam's is because appeasement failed in the past and will fail again. Give diplomacy all the time it needs, but when it comes time to go to it then GO TO IT. You support your troops and you support your country EVERYDAY for the rest of your life because it is YOURS. The only reason you ever hear anything on TV about politics is because they want you to vote a certain way next election and they'll twist it any way they can. All that matters in the end is that our country prevails because regardless of how you feel about anything the United States is a beacon of hope that the world may live in freedom some day. The freedoms I so enjoy here in the US may some day be enjoyed in Iraq. That to me is worth everything we've given and more. I guess I'm just a "the ends justify the means" type guy. I can only hope that it is not simply their religion which causes peace to fail. The End.

-Bear

Beautifully written! Thank you, tomcat! I wish I could have written with such eloquence!
Sometime we turn into donkey's especially when we feel powerful. We all need to put on sackcloth and get on our knees and pray. There are people here in the good old US that spy into people's homes saying they're doing it for
God but in reality. They are child molester and homeinvader. They get caught everyday some service time other claim they're spy for the Lord. If God didn't want Noah son's seeing his nakeness and drunkness, then why would he sent these good for nothing people into people homes to spy, let's think people if the shoe was on the other foot, would you want your life on someone else's monitor that you did not request. I feel if the people overseas had weapons of mass destruction don't you think they would have used them. There is something wrong with the WTC picture. As God is my witness even the day the planes went into the buildings I always felt that the people overseas had nothing to do with the death and because of the language barrier they were tagged. Even in 2007 I still feel that even that man's death brought very little relief. There is something that doesn't fit. Is there anyone out there who's feeling where I'm coming from. I'm not trying to start trouble, I just need to know why all these things are going on without God as the Leader.
Last edited by moms3babes2000
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition, Smart Chick! The US of A has the God given right to "Shock and Awe" any dictator/foreign country that pisses us off, right? First we start with Iraq, then move on to Iran, North Korea, that little Chavez fellow in Venezuela, and while we're down Mexico way we ought to go ahead a finish off Castro (you're welcome, jack and bobby) and have a little "talk" with President Calderon (Mexico) about all our "visitors". And if we're feeling particularly frisky, we might even go wipe the s#&t-eating grins off all those visages francaise.

While I don't agree with everything PWB said, THIS WAR IS NOT ABOUT DEFENDING OUR FREEDOMS! Yes, Saddam was terrible and should have been overthrown, but we are not the world police. There are other men/governments just as bad as Saddam was. Are we going to "liberate" them, too? You can't force democracy on a country that is not ready for it. It has to start from within. There is civil was in Iraq now because different religious sects are warring over control of their territories. IMO this is what happens when any country is ruled by a theocratic government. These are the same civil/territorial wars that have been happening in the Middle East for millenia. For the past 30? or more years, the US and other Superpowers have been hedging their bets on which mullah was going to win. Why? Because of the great goat cheese that comes from the Middle East? the Persian rugs? the seductive art of belly dancing?

No!!!! I will give you one guess.....
quote:
Originally posted by moms3babes2000:
Sometime we turn into donkey's especially when we feel powerful. We all need to put on sackcloth and get on our knees and pray. There are people here in the good old US that spy into people's homes saying they're doing it for
God but in reality. They are child molester and homeinvader. They get caught everyday some service time other claim they're spy for the Lord. If God didn't want Noah son's seeing his nakeness and drunkness, then why would he sent these good for nothing people into people homes to spy, let's think people if the shoe was on the other foot, would you want your life on someone else's monitor that you did not request. I feel if the people overseas had weapons of mass destruction don't you think they would have used them. There is something wrong with the WTC picture. As God is my witness even the day the planes went into the buildings I always felt that the people overseas had nothing to do with the death and because of the language barrier they were tagged. Even in 2007 I still feel that even that man's death brought very little relief. There is something that doesn't fit. Is there anyone out there who's feeling where I'm coming from. I'm not trying to start trouble, I just need to know why all these things are going on without God as the Leader.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16472777/

(READ ARTICLE ABOVE) Bush doesn't abide by ANY law, he writes his own, and has done it several times over last two years, ... the public, and the fat=cat politicians should have raised the roof about KING GEORGE writing laws and by-passing the way we are set up to do that, CONSTITUTIONALLY!!!! But we have allowed it, people have placated him, and now, he can read your mail... and anything you put online, and anything you say on the phone... ANYTHING!!! And it just makes me wonder, ... WHO THE HELL IS THE ENEMY???? US???? Seems like it!!! WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES ARE THE ONES THAT ARE PAYING for the power hungry president we put in the White House. NUFF SAID!!

Whew, sorry about the rant, had to get that off my chest.... things are wrong, things in America is wrong, bad wrong... if WE are supposed to be free, and our troops are fighting for our freedom, then why in hell do we have a President taking away our freedoms left and right?

But no matter what, my thoughts and my mind is with the troops over there THINKING they are fighting for our freedoms, probably not even knowing that the President himself is the one taking them away. . . How did we get in this conditions???? Just how did we allow ONE SINGLE man so much power???? Thought we had laws, but DUBBYA has proven that we only have laws when it is convenient to the gov't.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
Lookn2it:

I'm sorry if the mere suggestion of Darwinism is an outright offense and renders me automatically guilty of condescencion.

I would be very interested to know your opinion on how the 'sacrifice' of our 3,000 young people has or will IN ANY WAY directly affect my own life. I was never saying we don't need a military or that I'm opposed to any and all military action-- I oppose the CURRENT military action, along with a legion of military officers and global experts, including Gen. John Abazaid among countless others.

You keep implying I should be grateful-- but for what? For the rape, murder, torture, and destruction that has caused the formerly-balanced budget (thanks, Clinton!) to soar into a massive defecit (thanks, W!)?

Should I somehow take comfort in the fact that the world is beginning to quite rightly view the United States as a gang of bullying thugs?

Should I divest myself of my carefully-considered agnosticism and become religious so that I could earnestly thank some deity for the dedication of nineteen-year-olds missing limbs (or dead) because they were sent into urban combat woefully under-supplied with armored vehicles, body armor, etc?

I respect your opinion, but I'm still not sure exactly what it is.


I will again say that my thoughts and prayers are with each and every one of our servicemen/women in Iraq. But I do have to admit, that as of late, and the recent News Casts that our freedoms are being taken away here in the USA, as I posted above the link to read. Funny though, that was all over the news last night, and on CNN, ABC, NBC, MSNBC, but I searched and searched FOX and there is nothing about that link I posted.... wonder why??? Could it be because FOX belongs to the Republicans ONLY? I think so.

In the last 2 years, President Bush signed laws saying they could monitor our emails, anything we put on the internet, including this, our phone calls, and now (this week) our very own first class mail.

Freedoms of Americans are being stripped right here by those we are SUPPOSED to trust, not in Iraq.

This is absolutely horrifying.
quote:
Originally posted by Carol None:
I agree with some of what you said, but so far as those who signed up to go, many saw it as their only way out of a bad situation here at home. This may be their only key to further education and a job that can get them out of poverty.
I would like to have someone comment on the difference in Saddam killing people involved in an assissanation attempt on his life, and Bush invading Iraq and in the process many innocents being killed because there was an assissanation attempt on his father.


Carol None.. you make a good point here. I know of 3 different men who signed up to make a living for their families, get health insurance, and the benefit of getting an education after they got out... Little did they know they would end up in a desert, and their lives, and the lives of their families FOREVER changed.

There are probably a lot of troops who signed up to go to war, but with the deployment of older, National Guard Members, and younger people just trying to get a career first makes me wonder just how many that have been to Iraq or are in Iraq, actually 'buy into' that FREEDOM and WMD stuff... ya know?
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
wow...it's amazing to watch the substance of this discussion disintegrate into accusations that I'm some other guy. I'm NOT Shoals Lover or anyone else who has previously posted in this forum, and, having thought about it for a couple of hours now, I realize that there's just no way to establish this without identifying myself, which I don't care to do any more than the rest of you...if anyone else can think of a way for me to verify that I'm not Shoals Lover (I'm really not sure why I care who you think I am, other than that it distracts from what I was trying to say), let me know in a private message-- I'll do it. I really hate to think that YOU folks think that there could only be One Single Sarcastic Liberal in an area of this size-- guess that really speaks for the area's lack of diversity, huh?

As for my shrewd inference that Rednevedanv's name derives from his surname, it's because-- NEWS FLASH, FOLKS-- it's obviously "Vandevender" spelled backwards. I have a sharp eye for word/number/letter combinations, and wondered what the point of an unpronounceable nic is-- just like I do when I see an incomprehensible personalized auto tag. Furthermore, I used to know an awesome local guitarist named Charles Vandevender, and I think his dad or grandfather was the minister of the Presbyterian church downtown when I was in high school...so, woohoo for me, I somehow trapped myself in an identity conundrum by reversing a few letters to figure out that the guy's last name HAD to be Vandevender...

I can't believe I'm even still typing. But so as not to leave this impossible "discussion" with any murky areas, I'd like to note the following, and you can then all respond about how I'm really Shoals Lover (for the record, having spent most of my life here, I'm FAR from a "Shoals Lover" and can't wait to get to a blue state soon's a job comes through)...

Having said that, I'd like to point out that I don't wish our soldiers harm. I just don't support the decision, particularly by anyone who joined the military after 2003 or so, to do. I think the Iraqi Occupation is costly in terms of money, lives, and loss of credibility in the world, and I've just begun to find it hard to mourn people who make such...bad...decisions.

I likened it to the reckless sports some people pursue like rock climbing or bullfighting-- when some guy falls off a 100-foot rock face dies from blunt force trauma or whatever, the lives of his survivors are impacted and truthfully, it's harder on the survivors than the "victim". And in this case, in my view, the ONLY difference is that the person was pursuing the "sport" under the guise of "serving the nation", and I say: "where's the service, other than the funeral service performed over your prematurely shattered remains that would be much better off above ground, alive, and enjoying life with your family?"

I'm just saying I don't support the mission, the decision to join the military, or the government that sends those kids (and "young adults", Mr. D) off to die FOR NO GOOD CAUSE.

I know quite well that I should never have broached this subject here-- it would be controversial even in a town with a MUCH better track record for free expression of ideas than Florence, and, truthfully, I'm not trying to ram the opinion down anyone's throat. I appreciate those of you who responded kindly or disagreed in a civil manner, and I will get out of your way and let you go back to assuring yourselves that there could only be one well-spoken, witty liberal in town and he spends his time creating alter-egos to reinforce his opinions. Sheesh.

I truly, truly, wish you all the best.


Now THIS is the first comment you wrote that had substance, and that I can agree with a lot of... you, yourself has toned down to where you are no longer throwing anger into the mix, but logic, and I can agree with your logic.
quote:
Originally posted by elijah495:
without a brain...you are surely no patriot...your posts reek with entitlement...."as long as I don't have to pay the price, then so be it"....there are always some of your kind around...normally, I would say that you have intellecutally reasoned your position into neutrality and chicken****ism, but I think that would be giving you way too much credit...your apathetic and pathetic ramblings, along with your psuedo-intellectualism, have no credence with anyone who has experience and knowledge of this country's many sacrifices and devotion to duty and freedom for the oppressed...sip your wine, enjoy your beignets, none whose spirit embody courage and honor would welcome your company...


Elijah, I know where you are coming from, and I can so empathize with you and your position, ... but I have to say that patriotism is tumbling as we speak since people are now learning the REAL reasons behind Iraq. Saddam was an evil, tyrant who ruled a country with fear and death and horrible torture... But there are a lot of actual "truths" coming out since Jan. 1st, and yesterday, since Bush NOW has people he has to answer to, and not the Robots he put there. He is replacing people left and right... but he also has signed a law saying he has the authority to read OUR first class mail... OUR MAIL???? We are not the enemy here, we are Americans, but now our lives, (yours too) are an open book... internet, email, telephone, and now OPENING OUR MAIL... now WHO is taking away our freedoms? It is not Saddam, he is dead.... or as some websites say, IS HE? Confused ... In the history of our Country, to keep one person (President) from becoming a Tyrant, we created the Executive Orders so the President CANNOT sign LAWS before it passing one of our Judicial bodies... he has ignored that 3 times that I know of, and to me, that is a crime.

Do you remember him telling that Judge that ruled he could NOT tap wires of Americans that he appealed, and during the appeal, he was going to continue to tap the lines to our phones?

Wow, now that reeks of tyranny to almost everyone I know, or have read, or have heard on television.

Elijah, please understand where I am coming from, I do not want to make you upset with me in any way, but this picture has not only gotten SO big that we cannot see it all, it is getting ready to explode... ya know?
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
riiiight, Eli...your definition of "chicken****" seems to be my failure to expend young lives for fraudulent "causes" and when our national security is NOT being threatened...

I hate to admit this, because it just gives some of you more ammunition to hurl "educated idiot" slurs at me, but I happen to hold a bachelor's degree in....drum roll....HISTORY!!! I've studied every war in which America has been involved and many that it hasn't, and let me let you in on a little secret, Eli:

What you and I and everyone else on this forum say right now is idle speculation. When the history books are written on this sad chapter in American History, Bush, his cronies, and his war will be exposed as the liars, thieves, and murderers that I and others, including Colin Powell and Gen. John Abazaid to name but two, already know them to be.

You won't be standing there for me to rub it in your face when it becomes accepted fact, but that's not my style anyway. Historians ALWAYS have the last word, and Bush is in for a decline in reputation roughly similar to that of Michael Jackson, except at least THAT freak didn't KILL anyone.


PWAB, you have just graduated another course, lol.. that is not to come onto a board, in this day and time, and spout out FLAME against our troops... Now I think you KNOW that if you want to share your intelligence with us, you know more how to do it. Besides, you are not the only person on this board who has a College degree, or that is smart... in fact, if you are as smart as you 'claim' you know that people who have a head-full of COMMON SENSE, and experience is much smarter than the book-worm who spends years studying history. You studied it, WE LIVED A LOT OF IT...

It isnt that you are disliked, or even hated, you just need to know how to approach your opinions on group of people who have been conversing for over a year with each other.

Now, you know, I hope.
quote:
Originally posted by yankeewitch:
I don't think anyone agrees with this war,but this is our country and those are our brave soldiers over there doing what they were ordered to do by our president( like him or not- he is the president of our country).We elected him(maybe?).If we don't like what he is doing we vote him out.This country has a government,which we elect to run things,if we don't like the way they are running things we vote them out.We may not like things the way they are now, but we still live in the best **** country there is.


I think that within the next month, we will be finding out so much that our brains are going to have a hard time wrapping around it all...

And My biggest fear is that we have opened up a can of worms that there is no way to put a lid on, a nearly a billion dollars a day... Frowner
quote:
Originally posted by Shiroshi:
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
Also, Shiroshi, it should be noted that German propaganda, which they elevated to an art form, never openly admitted the stated goal of murdering six million people, and I'm sure the German kids in the trenches didn't know about the concentration camps-- remember that only a couple dozen Nazis were able to be tried and executed for the genocidal events, clear evidence that the "Final Solution" was not a widely known aim.


Before gaining power in Germany, Hitler did allude to the "Aryan" Race as the "Master Race". He did also blame the Jews for most of the finacial woes of Germany and most of Europe for the better part of a millenia. His main political capital was his idea of a pure, World dominating Germany, free of the chains of its (then) economic and stratigic disadvantages.


I agree with Shiroshi on this, I watch a lot of the history channel.... and the German troops did know what was going on, but their fear and maybe even their sadism made it to where they just kept their mouths shut and did their job.

Patriotic, yes, we can all be patriotic, but thankfully, TODAY we are supposed to know the good and the bad... we were supposed to have learned from WWII, Germany and Japan...

I love my country, I love the troops over there who think they are fighting for our freedoms, and I love the way ALL of America UNITED after 9/11... but alas, I am afraid that it has all been turned around and used against us, and we have now waited too long to cry FOUL... but that is just my opinion, and I could be dead wrong, and would not in the least mind being proved wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by Shiroshi:
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
lookn2it: if any attempt were ever made to institute a draft in this country again, there would be an explosion of grass-roots anarchy on a level previously unimaginable. I don't think anyone would stand for it, and furthermore, a draft would almost be WELCOME because it would place a lot more heat on the man sending troops into battle to be honest about his intentions and the risks involved.

Vandevender: Apart from my appreciation of your Alfred E. Neuman avatar, I must tell you that I think your insinuation that one must be from France in order to disagree with the Occupation of Iraq is a poster boy for American ignorance.
I'm from Alabama and have lived here all my life, but I'll admit to you that all it takes is one look at the French crime rate (a fraction of ours), literacy rate (MUCH higher than ours) and general level of sophisitication in terms of political thought MORE than make up for what folks like yourself seem to be unable to forgive them for: their bold refusal to support the Bush regime just because we (along with the British and many, MANY brave Resistance fighters) drove the Nazis from their land 66 years ago. I'm over it.
Pouring a glass of Merlot and toasting General Abazaid,

PwB


Is the same low crime rate politically minded France that saw riots and a near revolt in the past year? The same France that is suffering from soaring unemployment that the rioters were angry for the only available solution to? The French have backed into thier own form of socialism but failed to solve any of the real problems associated with it. Free college, health care, jobs for life. High unemployment, radicalism, and some of the highest taxes on the planet. Rampant racial strife as well. I tire of typing this list of France's woes, move along now.


Is that the same France that turned their backs on us, but didnt have the guts to actually SAY so?
quote:
Originally posted by lookn2it:
I am of the opinion that we have overstepped our boundaries in Iraq. We are woefully mistaken to think there can ever be peace between the Middle Eastern Countries. I do think you are correct in that there are numerous hidden agendas and some that may never come to light. However, I find it hard to condemn and excuse their deaths and dismemberment as just some form of stupidity on their part.
People make their own choices true. But the reasons you stated for their decisions to join the military were just vastly understated. It would be great if life was just as simple as black and white, smart and dumb, etc. my point is that whether agreed on by you or not there are numerous reasons why someone chooses their path. For no other reason that right to be able to choose should be respected - not ridiculed.
I don't want to argue with you. I would just like you to see that as civility calls for- understanding rationale that you, yourself, can't fathom should still be respected as a single independent decision. Not just a sweeping generaliztion of a whole brigade or military unit. Simply stated I am just asking you to rethink your statment. It is a generic reference to a very large group of people that you know nothing about other than they made a decision based on reasons you don't know and don't understand and don't agree with. If I read your statements correctly you are basically saying "OK, they are too dumb to realize that they are Lemmings sent off to commit suicide. So, according to the laws of nature let the strongest and smartest survive. No big deal to me." I think its the apathy on your part for them to make your point about the war that both angers me and scares me at the same time.


AMEN!!! And you might just be surprised at how many people are now coming to this conclusion... it is overwhelming finally learning a lot about what is REALLY going on, it is scary too....
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
Well,

I have come to a simular conclusion Patriot. But with an asterisk. Bush invaded Iraq with CLINTON'S ARMY. Those men and women, People like Lori Piestewa and Jessica Lynch volunteered their service to this country in a time of relative peace, trained hard and learned the methods of war to DEFEND AND PROTECT THE UNITED STATES. They Got HIJACKED. Lori died to Save Jessica on a battlefield that did not exist before the day she died. Before that battle was fought TWO Generals, Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff resigned rather than order troops into IRAQ, and one of them had ordered troops into Afghanistan. Lori was a lowly Specialist in a Maintenance Battalion she had a contract to fulfill, and two fatherless children.
But the term of enlistment is four years. The enlisted person in the Military today either started out for a career in the Armed forces and extended his or her contract before the war, OR they volunteered to fight this war. THOSE VOLUNTEERS FOR WAR ARE PLAIN AND SIMPLE MERCENARIES. No one in his right mind supports MERCENARIES FIGHTING A WAR OF AGGRESSION.

So, count this liberal as one who SUPPORTS a strong DEFENSIVE military, AND ADAMANTLY OPPOSES MERCENARY ARMIES MARCHING TO CONQUEST. Ours or Theirs, IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. I will gladly take up arms AGAIN, to defend this country. But, like Lt Ehren Watada, I would not go to fight in Iraq for love nor money.


Ed, you are correct about it being the Army left from Clinton's time, but our country then started deploying the National Guardsmen, who have been there for years, hoping for retirement, to get that little extra bonus on their retirement. Never did they think they would be deployed in another war. Were they happy to go? Happy might not be the word, but they were doing their job, and what they thought was their Patriotic duty.

No one would have ever thought that our National Guard and Reservists that were in their 40's-50's would EVER have to run the ground with guns again. How scary that must have really been for them...

I dont think it is a bit hypocritical though to say we support our troops, but not the cause. I DO support each and every human being that is doing what their jobs dictate, and what they have to do, and that will not change, I will support them until the day they come home.
quote:
Originally posted by REDNEVEDNAV:
BTW, if indeed Shoals Lover and PatriotWITHaBrain are two separate people (as seems to be the case), I stand corrected and apologize for hijacking the thread with the accusation.

To PatriotWITHaBrain: on behalf of my brother, thank you for the compliment, he is still an awesome guitar player.


Me too Red... I did the same thing and I apologize.
quote:
Originally posted by tomcat_176:
Although I'm going to leave you this nasty little response it does not mean I am poorly educated on the subject. That being said,

I'm not entirely certain you would oppose such a death however. I doubt they would choose to even take you as you are the closest thing to an ally that these guys have in the US and whether you believe it or not they ARE OUR enemies. As for your rant about people expanding their mind through books.. Why don't you think about trying out some physical activities... Not everyone wants to be some egghead reject.. Comprende? You don't really want everyone who's currently skateboarding in some park somewhere (physical activity) to go home and read a book while eating egg whites on toast and waiting for "Murder She Wrote" to come on, do you? No. Because then everyone would be as dull, boring, and weak as you are. I understand that strengths are not limited to muscles and endurance, but strong mind and body do not come from reading books alone. I submit to you that you are in fact the limited mind. Not necessarily in the manner which you are referencing in your post, but limited from expanding outward from your daily routine. With no respect whatsoever, I do request that you quit humping large trees and other plant life, animals in various sizes, and small children. Take a step outside your boring little homely box and try having some fun outside. You see, learning while reading books can be helpful in many ways, but the limitation is the fact that you're reading the words of another person.. You are learning from someone else. Physical activities can be trained, but pretty much everything you do, especially in skateboarding for example, is self taught. Instead of reading or listening to some political propaganda all day long and THINKING you know what the hell you're talking about. All you REALLY know is what other people are talking about. So, I say screw your bright idea and empty ignorant rant about educating one's self through the perspectives of others. Almost EVERYONE is biased in some manner, so how can you trust what they say? Take me for example..

But just because you trust that doesn't mean you should believe me if I say "There are WMDs in Iraq" or "Thousands of teenagers have been killed because of Bush"... Both of what I just said are completely opposite sides of the spectrum and I don't believe either.. Facts are this: Soldiers who joined the US military at whatever age did so of their own free will and choosing and many have been killed in action. There were no WMDs (to our knowledge) in Iraq, but we did liberate a country under the rule of a tyrant dictator responsible for the deaths of millions. The people have since all but plunged into civil war. We should not be the world police, but we have every right to make preemptive strikes against our enemies and those who harbor and support them. There was probably some bad blood between Iraq and the US that played a part in choosing that country for attack. They wouldn't comply with inspectors after all (or atleast so we've been told- see what I'm sayin). In the long run we now have an established presence in the mid-east where we can launch future assaults on terrorist nations. Our presence there also draws fire off of the civilian population here in the US... They'll try to attack us here, but priority is to defend their bases and permanent positions. OBVIOUSLY lots of facts and other crap you hear on the news, internet, weird movies by Michael Moore(s), and in books you read can be right or wrong. Right according to some; wrong according to others. Regardless what you believe you should NEVER EVER NOT SUPPORT YOUR OWN TROOPS!! Be angry, disagree, HELL, PROTEST all you want about the war, the leadership directing it, and the circumstances prolonging it, but when you see an American Soldier at the airport coming home to his family, or drive by a funeral service for one of our fallen brothers you had better take your hat off and put your hand over your heart and THANK GOD for every waking moment he's blessed you with in this GREAT NATION. At that point I want you to remember that freedom isn't free and the reason nations like ours now strike preemptively at regimes like Saddam's is because appeasement failed in the past and will fail again. Give diplomacy all the time it needs, but when it comes time to go to it then GO TO IT. You support your troops and you support your country EVERYDAY for the rest of your life because it is YOURS. The only reason you ever hear anything on TV about politics is because they want you to vote a certain way next election and they'll twist it any way they can. All that matters in the end is that our country prevails because regardless of how you feel about anything the United States is a beacon of hope that the world may live in freedom some day. The freedoms I so enjoy here in the US may some day be enjoyed in Iraq. That to me is worth everything we've given and more. I guess I'm just a "the ends justify the means" type guy. I can only hope that it is not simply their religion which causes peace to fail. The End.

-Bear


Wow, heavy statement, had a lot of truth in it.

Makes me remember that when I got off the plane from KC Missouri to Memphis, there were 6 of our troops in full Uniform at the same boarding gate as me, they were going HOME from Iraq, and their families hadn't even seen them... I will ALWAYS honor the fact that each one of them allowed me to hug them, and thank them for what they did for us. Those few moments were PRICELESS.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
Thanks, EdEKit-- and right on. I'm all for having the best defensive army in the world, and I really regret not making it clear from the beginning that my comments-- and lack of support-- had more to do with recent enlistees and nothing to do with those who had reasonable cause to believe that they would only be deployed in an honest, realistic, judicious manner when they signed up.

Truthfully, it's the same principle that makes me very irritated when I hear that so-and-so percentage of American high school seniors can't find the country or their home state on a map. This, to me, seems like a logical extension of that same problem-- high school kids think the news is irrelevant to them, thus do not take up the slack left by the public education system by watching the news, reading books, etc. That was the basis of my use of the dreaded D-Word (Darwinism) that I appear to have used somewhat loosely given the gravity of the subject.

(steps up to podium, clears throat)
Hey parents! Talk to your kids now and then! Don't let them be raised by XBox or whatever the current trendy gaming system is! Encourage independent reading, FROM PRESCHOOL FORWARD! Don't raise another generation of dupes! Encourage critical thinking! Discuss the news over dinner!

(steps down, loosens tie)

Maybe I should have said all that in the first post, instead of what I DID say. But it would likely would have sunk to the bottom of the tank for lack of sparkle.

In hindsight, it might also have been equally thought-provoking if I'd asked everyone if they would advise their own child to join the military upon graduation this spring. The answers might have been more illuminating had I not used the "danger sports" metaphor...


This is one of the smartest comments I have seen on here... and you are totally right... get rid of all the video games, and allow KIDS to be KIDS and not some methodical robot created by Game Makers... What a profound statement.... It would absolutely be fantastic if this message could be passed to each and every parent out there...

I think Parents of today's age uses it more as a babysitter than anything else, which means they don't have time to teach like we did many many years ago.

Thanks for that statement!!!
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
No, they're NOT there for their HEALTH-- just the opposite. And they should know better. They want to do something to promote their health, they should make better decisions-- just like the bullfighters and skateboarders should do.

Think of how many questions you ask before you buy a car or a house. Those kids, with a little parental guidance, might have given a bit more critical thought to the decision they were making to join up with an invading force on a mission to sate our country's thirst for cheap oil and defense spending.

Oh, and, Mom and Grandmom that you are, how 'bout this, Kindred? We could have fed, clothed, educated, and provided medical care for millions of needy AMERICAN children who are neglected, starving, or disadvantaged with the amount of money we've spent prosecuting this war.

So, maybe I'm more compassionate, realistically, than YOU are, and I'm NOT a dad or a grandpa...I'm a human being with a sense of propriety and a realistic grasp of world events who is not simply blinded by anti-Arab sentiments...


As bad as I hate to admit it, you have scores of great comments within your text... things that a lot of us are saying, and believing, ... And I also have to admit, that you got my anger going with the name of this post, and I didn't even give you much of a chance to explain yourself.... Sorry about that, ... Now, given some time to actually start reading, you make a lot of sense, in a lot of ways....

You definitely have a way of getting attention, lol.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
Brentenman,

Thanks for your service, even if you risked your life for nothing.

I'll concede that some of the dead soldiers from the Iraq campaign are a little older than teenagers, but 31's hardly a ripe old age.

And I hate to dignify your comments about "treason" with a response-- anyone who knows the first thing about the Bill of Rights knows you're a crackpot if you construe ANYTHING I say (apart from perhaps "I support the overthrow the United States Government") as "treason".

Seems like a guy who risked his life to preserve our "freedom" would know better than anyone that free speech is a critical component of the "freedom" you THINK you were fighting for while you killed people for oil and to avenge Daddy Bush.

Thanks for actually supporting my points with your response.

Oh, and I WON'T be visiting Iraq, because I have the sense to stay out of places where me and my concepts of "democracy" and "freedom" are likely to be greeted with an RPG. I'm going to survive and raise well-informed children who will make better decisions and stand a better chance of surviving to live a fruitful life, while meatheads like yourself raise mean-spirited, aggressive, "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" little warmongers who will boldly march off to catch an RPG of their own.

More power to ya.


Since Bush changed the laws on internet, emails, telephone and now US first class mail ... I am wondering when he will try to change the bill of rights too... And I hope no one comes on here and says the President cannot make laws, the news says different, even showed him sitting there signing it, with all his cronies behind him... oh wait, he got rid of a couple of those and replaced them today.

Heck ... who even KNOWS what is going on in this FLIP-FLOP day and time... We will find out though, the truth ALWAYS comes out, and call it karma if you will, but what goes around does come around, and that is not political, it is Biblical.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
Kindred Spirit:

You seem like a wonderful person to me, in all honesty. I'm not sure how my being a newcomer to this forum figures into the validity of my points, but, as I said in my first post, this is something I began thinking about over the last few days and decided it would be worth discussing.

I didn't intend to make any judgements about you as a person-- I don't feel qualified to "judge", only to express my opinion, which I admit is sometimes controversial.

I do feel that the money used to finance the Iraq disaster (which doesn't begin to cover the toll of human anguish) could have been better used feeding, clothing, educating, and providing medical treatment for our OWN CHILDREN than to send our young men off to die for a lie. I shouldn't have suggested that you think otherwise, and I apologize for that.


You know what, PWAB, you after a day of reading all the replies here, I have to say that you and I are saying much of the SAME thing, I agree with what you said here, the only thing that irritated me was that I still do support our troops, for whatever reason they are over there, they are there, and they need our support... Heaven knows they aren't getting it anywhere else.... Sorry we all got off on the wrong foot.
As quoted by Smart Chick:

"Our troops are in Iraq, and in danger, because it is their JOB to protect this country. The morality of the war is really a non-issue....We are a free country because thousands of honorable and couragous men and women put their lives on the line every day to defend this country against any and all threats as deemed appropriate by the Commander in Chief."

I did read your post, several times in fact. What I understood you to say was that they (our soliders) were in Iraq fighting for our freedoms, which is not the truth. Everything else in your post I agree with. I have a family member in Afganistan right now. My husband is in the medical field and has been needle stuck by a hepatitus/AIDS patient. I realize the risk that these selfless and brave people put themselves in every day. I think it is terrible to rejoice in anyone's death, regardless of what they did, for the good or the bad.

I do question your statement "The morality of the war is really a non-issue." I think this is a huge issue. One side is arguing this war is an almost-mandate from God to free Iraq from Saddam and the other side is saying the "occupation of Iraq" is morally and ethically wrong. While I realize that war is a sometimes necessary evil, i.e. ending slavery, stopping the invasion of Europe and the annihilation of the Jews, I think that it should only be used as an absolute last effort for peace and/or protection. I'm completely uncomfortable with "pre-emptive strikes". Do I want to sit around a wait for the next 911? Of course not. But adopting a policy of attacking countries before they attack us stinks and is morally wrong IMO.

I realize that I'm relatively new to these forums and you don't know much about my background and beliefs. Since I turned 18 in the 80's, I voted Republican. Over the past 10 years either my eyes have been open, or I am maturing enough to realize that politics on the National level is so dirty that I don't believe anyone anymore. I've never been one to debate much on politics, always happily agreeing to disagree. I guess watching both sides call God down on their side has left me angry and sick. I would suppose God is tired of it, too.

I apologize if I offended you, Smart Chick. I guess my retort was a bit too smart ***. I should not have had that late night gin and tonic and watched 2 episodes of The Office.Wink
quote:
Originally posted by mandomama:
As quoted by Smart Chick:

"Our troops are in Iraq, and in danger, because it is their JOB to protect this country. The morality of the war is really a non-issue....We are a free country because thousands of honorable and couragous men and women put their lives on the line every day to defend this country against any and all threats as deemed appropriate by the Commander in Chief."

I did read your post, several times in fact. What I understood you to say was that they (our soliders) were in Iraq fighting for our freedoms, which is not the truth. Everything else in your post I agree with. I have a family member in Afganistan right now. My husband is in the medical field and has been needle stuck by a hepatitus/AIDS patient. I realize the risk that these selfless and brave people put themselves in every day. I think it is terrible to rejoice in anyone's death, regardless of what they did, for the good or the bad.

I do question your statement "The morality of the war is really a non-issue." I think this is a huge issue. One side is arguing this war is an almost-mandate from God to free Iraq from Saddam and the other side is saying the "occupation of Iraq" is morally and ethically wrong. While I realize that war is a sometimes necessary evil, i.e. ending slavery, stopping the invasion of Europe and the annihilation of the Jews, I think that it should only be used as an absolute last effort for peace and/or protection. I'm completely uncomfortable with "pre-emptive strikes". Do I want to sit around a wait for the next 911? Of course not. But adopting a policy of attacking countries before they attack us stinks and is morally wrong IMO.

I realize that I'm relatively new to these forums and you don't know much about my background and beliefs. Since I turned 18 in the 80's, I voted Republican. Over the past 10 years either my eyes have been open, or I am maturing enough to realize that politics on the National level is so dirty that I don't believe anyone anymore. I've never been one to debate much on politics, always happily agreeing to disagree. I guess watching both sides call God down on their side has left me angry and sick. I would suppose God is tired of it, too.

I apologize if I offended you, Smart Chick. I guess my retort was a bit too smart ***. I should not have had that late night gin and tonic and watched 2 episodes of The Office.Wink


MANDOMAMA, I think that all of us, at one time or another offends someone else without really meaning to... that is the detriment of no eye-contact or facial expressions as we speak (type) But I am hoping, no actually I am praying, that people really pay attention to the next couple of months and see how many lies, and even illegal activity has come from this war on Iraq. There has already been a couple to make the news, big time, but looks like no one wants to pay attention to them right now.... but they will, when it is all said and done, probably at least 70% of this country will SEE the truth of what is going on, as we speak.
quote:
Originally posted by that smart chick:
Let me clarify my statement : "The morality of the war is really a non-issue."

In the general context - yes, it is an issue. Of course! We can't just start bombing people left and right!

In the specific context of PWAB's post which was to support or not support the troops - no, it is not an issue. I support the troops and the military 100%. I am not a big fan of this drawn out, unorganized, and brutal occupation of Iraq. But regardless of where they are and what they are doing, I support them, even when I don't agree with the mission.

The idea of this country going on the offense to avoid having to go on the defensive is crazy, I totally agree with that. A strong grassroots level approach (start with local homeland security and then work up to city, state, regional, etc) would be a better approach then jumping straight to global action would make more sense. And if this IS a war for oil (I'm not totally on board with that) then why in the heck aren't we working harder towards alternate fuels??? Ok, I could ramble for days....


Also, mandomama, no apology necessary~ forums are a notorious place for smart ***'s and I am one! I also did not mean to offend you, either. Big Grin


The title of this post brought out the ire of a lot of people, but the context has proven to be very educational... very.
You are so right Kindred,

This forum really has made me think and organize my thoughts in ways I never had before. It is one thing to have a conversation with yourself, and quite another to write it down. I'm a stay-at-home mom and really dont get into the nitty gritty of world events with anybody. I'm too busy keeping up with laundry, homework, after school activities and such to have these thought provoking discussions with someone.

I love it here, though! Even if I disagree, I am having a blast reading through all the posts. I stayed up waaaayyy too late last night (~2am) reading, but there is a freedom in coming here and working out your opinions. Kind of like iron sharpeneing iron, right? Thanks to all who post: thought proving, humorous, bitter and angry, or just plain misinformed!
quote:
Originally posted by mandomama:
You are so right Kindred,

This forum really has made me think and organize my thoughts in ways I never had before. It is one thing to have a conversation with yourself, and quite another to write it down. I'm a stay-at-home mom and really dont get into the nitty gritty of world events with anybody. I'm too busy keeping up with laundry, homework, after school activities and such to have these thought provoking discussions with someone.

I love it here, though! Even if I disagree, I am having a blast reading through all the posts. I stayed up waaaayyy too late last night (~2am) reading, but there is a freedom in coming here and working out your opinions. Kind of like iron sharpeneing iron, right? Thanks to all who post: thought proving, humorous, bitter and angry, or just plain misinformed!


Mandomama, I remember those days... all my kids grown, and have kids... somehow or another at that stage of our lives, we don't watch too much national news, if anything, it is mostly local.

But someday the kids DO get older, and it may be THEM sent overseas... now we are back into the scary (mom and grand mom) emotions.

My oldest 2 grandsons are both 12, and I am just praying this is over before they get old enough to be sent...

If there was a reason, a cause, for the good of the United States, then I may think differently... but right now, I see no reasons, no causes, a HUGE HUGE money pit, and our dear boys/girls there for moot. My heart and prayers are still with our troops, that will never change, they deserve that much from us.
This forum is great... I am glad that I finally had the chance to read through all of it. K.S.-- just want you to know that I am alright. However, today I lost a very dear friend. I myself was blown twenty or more feet from the turret of the vehicle. To all, I guess I am writing this with some emotion, simply to place more realism and first hand account into what is happening here. I think it's easy to get lost in the politics of why we are here. I often wonder myself, what we are doing here. I pray, I pray, I pray that we can make it better. I'll leave it at that. PWAB-- you have every right to not "Support Our Troops". I wish you wouldn't state that it was ignorance that led me to becoming a Soldier, but it's your opinion. I'll pray for you too, as I would ask that you pray for me, if you do that sort of thingSmiler I agree that all the name calling is unnecessary. The comment on treason was unnecessary. I appreciate the fact that you later came out and stated how you should have been more despcriptive of what Soldier's you were focusing in on. To me that says alot about your character. Don't get me wrong, initially I was quite irrate at what you originally posted, but have learned to try and sift through these forums before making comments of my own. You seem to be very intelligent, but your arrogance is what I believe set the tone. I am probably jumping around from topic to topic, but I can't sleep and I just need to type something. PWAB-- know this, if you were to walk up to me to shake my hand, I would gladly take it as I would any American who chose to speak of what they believed. In about a week or so, I will come home for my R&R. I will come back a smarter man. God Bless each one of you. Stand up for what you believe in. It could make the difference.
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by moms3babes2000:
<SNIP>

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16472777/

(READ ARTICLE ABOVE) Bush doesn't abide by ANY law, he writes his own, and has done it several times over last two years, ... <SNIP> Whew, sorry about the rant, had to get that off my chest.... things are wrong, things in America is wrong, bad wrong... if WE are supposed to be free, and our troops are fighting for our freedom, then why in hell do we have a President taking away our freedoms left and right?

But no matter what, my thoughts and my mind is with the troops over there THINKING they are fighting for our freedoms, probably not even knowing that the President himself is the one taking them away. . . How did we get in this conditions????
[COLOR:RED]EMPHASIS MINE

Just how did we allow ONE SINGLE man so much power????
EMPHASIS MINE
Thought we had laws, but DUBBYA has proven that we only have laws when it is convenient to the gov't.[/color]


THAT QUESTION IS THE ONE I WANT ANSWERED. I want my representative, and your representative to get ON THE BALL, and stop this ursurpation of American Liberties by the DOMINEERING MAN OF GOD WE BARELY ALLOWED INTO THE OVAL OFFICE TWICE.
quote:
Originally posted by that smart chick:
Let me clarify my statement : "The morality of the war is really a non-issue."

In the general context - yes, it is an issue. Of course! We can't just start bombing people left and right!

In the specific context of PWAB's post which was to support or not support the troops - no, it is not an issue. I support the troops and the military 100%. I am not a big fan of this drawn out, unorganized, and brutal occupation of Iraq. But regardless of where they are and what they are doing, I support them, even when I don't agree with the mission.

The idea of this country going on the offense to avoid having to go on the defensive is crazy, I totally agree with that. A strong grassroots level approach (start with local homeland security and then work up to city, state, regional, etc) would be a better approach then jumping straight to global action would make more sense. And if this IS a war for oil (I'm not totally on board with that) then why in the heck aren't we working harder towards alternate fuels??? Ok, I could ramble for days....


Also, mandomama, no apology necessary~ forums are a notorious place for smart ***'s and I am one! I also did not mean to offend you, either. Big Grin


Smart chick is RIGHT... any war is an obscenity. Under current international law, ANY WAR IS ILLEGAL. Any war is Immoral, and any war is FATTENING, if you happen to be the maker of smart bombs that are stupid enough to blow themselves up, cruise missiles, anti personnel weapons, hum vee's tanks, rifles, body armor, and transport trucks.
Fighting AGAINST AN ILLEGAL WAR, sort of like being the opposition to an aggressor. This time, we are the aggressor.
This is in response to the post by Patriotwithoutabrain. You are so far beneath contempt, that words to tell you how I feel about the things you have said here fail me. And, before you start in about anyone who disagrees with you is less educated than you, let me tell you I also have a college degree. In nursing. I suppose if I am injured by a patient or contract a contagious disease it is my own fault for going into the profession that will put me at risk. And, according to your way of thinking, policemen, who also risk their lives daily to protect the likes of you, deserve to be killed by a criminal, because they should have known better than to go into such a dangerous profession. According to what you have said, any profession or occupation that places a person in danger or at any risk, is less than honorable, and those people deserve whatever harm may befall them.
The impression I have of you are that you are a spineless coward, undeserving of having your freedoms, safety and priveleges protected, even though any soldier, my son included, will protect your right to spew such trash, WITH THEIR VERY LIVES!!!!
And, to all of you who have posted replies to this maniacs point of view agreeing with any part of what he has said, you should be ashamed of yourselves. It's people (and I use the term loosely) like him that need to have their own little passivist country so they can sit back and read their books to their little incompassionate hearts content.
To all the military people who have read this forum, the only thing he got right was in response to one post where he thanked you for your service, but that you had risked your life for nothing. He's the nothing!!
This whole post has made me so angry. My son is a soldier in the US Army National Guard. The next time we have a natural disaster, you should know who will be helping you. It will be the very people you have blasted with your unbelievable garbage.
And, don't bother responding by pointing out that I am not as intelligent as you by differing with you. If you are the mark for intelligence, I would prefer to be the dumbest creature on the face of the earth!
quote:
Originally posted by resa1865:
This is in response to the post by Patriotwithoutabrain. You are so far beneath contempt, that words to tell you how I feel about the things you have said here fail me. And, before you start in about anyone who disagrees with you is less educated than you, let me tell you I also have a college degree. In nursing. I suppose if I am injured by a patient or contract a contagious disease it is my own fault for going into the profession that will put me at risk. And, according to your way of thinking, policemen, who also risk their lives daily to protect the likes of you, deserve to be killed by a criminal, because they should have known better than to go into such a dangerous profession. According to what you have said, any profession or occupation that places a person in danger or at any risk, is less than honorable, and those people deserve whatever harm may befall them.
The impression I have of you are that you are a spineless coward, undeserving of having your freedoms, safety and priveleges protected, even though any soldier, my son included, will protect your right to spew such trash, WITH THEIR VERY LIVES!!!!
And, to all of you who have posted replies to this maniacs point of view agreeing with any part of what he has said, you should be ashamed of yourselves. It's people (and I use the term loosely) like him that need to have their own little passivist country so they can sit back and read their books to their little incompassionate hearts content.
To all the military people who have read this forum, the only thing he got right was in response to one post where he thanked you for your service, but that you had risked your life for nothing. He's the nothing!!
This whole post has made me so angry. My son is a soldier in the US Army National Guard. The next time we have a natural disaster, you should know who will be helping you. It will be the very people you have blasted with your unbelievable garbage.
And, don't bother responding by pointing out that I am not as intelligent as you by differing with you. If you are the mark for intelligence, I would prefer to be the dumbest creature on the face of the earth!


BRAVO!!!!
quote:
Originally posted by resa1865:
This is in response to the post by Patriotwithoutabrain. You are so far beneath contempt, that words to tell you how I feel about the things you have said here fail me. And, before you start in about anyone who disagrees with you is less educated than you, let me tell you I also have a college degree. In nursing. I suppose if I am injured by a patient or contract a contagious disease it is my own fault for going into the profession that will put me at risk. And, according to your way of thinking, policemen, who also risk their lives daily to protect the likes of you, deserve to be killed by a criminal, because they should have known better than to go into such a dangerous profession. According to what you have said, any profession or occupation that places a person in danger or at any risk, is less than honorable, and those people deserve whatever harm may befall them.
The impression I have of you are that you are a spineless coward, undeserving of having your freedoms, safety and priveleges protected, even though any soldier, my son included, will protect your right to spew such trash, WITH THEIR VERY LIVES!!!!
And, to all of you who have posted replies to this maniacs point of view agreeing with any part of what he has said, you should be ashamed of yourselves. It's people (and I use the term loosely) like him that need to have their own little passivist country so they can sit back and read their books to their little incompassionate hearts content.
To all the military people who have read this forum, the only thing he got right was in response to one post where he thanked you for your service, but that you had risked your life for nothing. He's the nothing!!
This whole post has made me so angry. My son is a soldier in the US Army National Guard. The next time we have a natural disaster, you should know who will be helping you. It will be the very people you have blasted with your unbelievable garbage.
And, don't bother responding by pointing out that I am not as intelligent as you by differing with you. If you are the mark for intelligence, I would prefer to be the dumbest creature on the face of the earth!


I am NOT ashamed of anything I say, anything I feel, or anything I KNOW. It is those of you who refuse to SEE or HEAR what is happening in our Nation who should be ashamed.

Read the replies, because you obviously have NOT, or otherwise, don't try to flaunt how 'smart' you are and pretend the rest of us are dumb.

Read Ed's reply... we have a man in the oval office who stole the first election, and barely even beat KERRY!... KERRY, lol... he almost beat Bush, and that even makes me laugh.

Over 2/3 of the Nation agree with most of the comments of these people who bared their soul... but you, sadly, remain in the 1/3 who refuse to admit there are things wrong, BAD wrong with these last 6 years.

About a billion dollars a day is going overseas, and we dont even pretend to take care of our very own children right here at home. Does anyone see we have HUNGRY people right here in the US? Kids that don't even have winter coats, kids that barely even survive, and I won't even go into medical.... but LETS SEND THAT BILLION DOLLARS A DAY OVERSEAS!!!! Lets Not even THINK about stopping that, or even curtailing it...

That is NOT our country, and that is NOT our people...

I support the Troops (mauiboy especially via emails) but not the causes that we are there, it is none of our business how a country makes their laws.

Some of the laws made in the last 6 months here in the US were illegally made, so we cannot even make OUR laws right, and now we expect to nose in on someone else's HOUSE and make THEIR laws...

That is a country and culture we cannot nor will not EVER change, they are who they are, and always will be.

And if your son is here helping with Natural Disasters, then I applaud him, he is HERE, helping OUR people... how rewarding. Our troops are over there, doing their jobs too, but we do NOT know if they like it or not... the news is just too biased to know the "rest of the story" ...
quote:
Originally posted by mauiboy71:
This forum is great... I am glad that I finally had the chance to read through all of it. K.S.-- just want you to know that I am alright. However, today I lost a very dear friend. I myself was blown twenty or more feet from the turret of the vehicle. To all, I guess I am writing this with some emotion, simply to place more realism and first hand account into what is happening here. I think it's easy to get lost in the politics of why we are here. I often wonder myself, what we are doing here. I pray, I pray, I pray that we can make it better. I'll leave it at that. PWAB-- you have every right to not "Support Our Troops". I wish you wouldn't state that it was ignorance that led me to becoming a Soldier, but it's your opinion. I'll pray for you too, as I would ask that you pray for me, if you do that sort of thingSmiler I agree that all the name calling is unnecessary. The comment on treason was unnecessary. I appreciate the fact that you later came out and stated how you should have been more despcriptive of what Soldier's you were focusing in on. To me that says alot about your character. Don't get me wrong, initially I was quite irrate at what you originally posted, but have learned to try and sift through these forums before making comments of my own. You seem to be very intelligent, but your arrogance is what I believe set the tone. I am probably jumping around from topic to topic, but I can't sleep and I just need to type something. PWAB-- know this, if you were to walk up to me to shake my hand, I would gladly take it as I would any American who chose to speak of what they believed. In about a week or so, I will come home for my R&R. I will come back a smarter man. God Bless each one of you. Stand up for what you believe in. It could make the difference.


When you told me of this in email Friday night, my heart skipped beats... You already know how I feel, and I am not going into all that here, except to say, that I am so glad you are fine, and that soon, you will be able to hold your wife and two baby girls!!!!!

Many hugs to ya!!! And thank you for all that you and your buddies do!!!
quote:
Originally posted by resa1865:
This is in response to the post by Patriotwithoutabrain. You are so far beneath contempt, that words to tell you how I feel about the things you have said here fail me. And, before you start in about anyone who disagrees with you is less educated than you, let me tell you I also have a college degree. In nursing. I suppose if I am injured by a patient or contract a contagious disease it is my own fault for going into the profession that will put me at risk. And, according to your way of thinking, policemen, who also risk their lives daily to protect the likes of you, deserve to be killed by a criminal, because they should have known better than to go into such a dangerous profession. According to what you have said, any profession or occupation that places a person in danger or at any risk, is less than honorable, and those people deserve whatever harm may befall them.
The impression I have of you are that you are a spineless coward, undeserving of having your freedoms, safety and priveleges protected, even though any soldier, my son included, will protect your right to spew such trash, WITH THEIR VERY LIVES!!!!
And, to all of you who have posted replies to this maniacs point of view agreeing with any part of what he has said, you should be ashamed of yourselves. It's people (and I use the term loosely) like him that need to have their own little passivist country so they can sit back and read their books to their little incompassionate hearts content.
To all the military people who have read this forum, the only thing he got right was in response to one post where he thanked you for your service, but that you had risked your life for nothing. He's the nothing!!
This whole post has made me so angry. My son is a soldier in the US Army National Guard. The next time we have a natural disaster, you should know who will be helping you. It will be the very people you have blasted with your unbelievable garbage.
And, don't bother responding by pointing out that I am not as intelligent as you by differing with you. If you are the mark for intelligence, I would prefer to be the dumbest creature on the face of the earth!
Double Bravo! Very well stated.
Resa, best post of the whole thread!!!
I thank you and I haven't even been in the service. But I am smart enough to know what freedoms we've been given because of our troops, and what it meant and the cost to get those freedoms. If anyone here thinks our government is so bad, we'll gladly let you try any other government. (oh say try one in the Middle East) You would be running back to your cozy couch so you can berate the very government that gave the right to be disrespectful (read: HATE)to it to the point of idiocity!!!
Try that in Syria/Iran/Korea.
I think my point is made.
quote:
Originally posted by jaime:
Resa, best post of the whole thread!!!
I thank you and I haven't even been in the service. But I am smart enough to know what freedoms we've been given because of our troops, and what it meant and the cost to get those freedoms. If anyone here thinks our government is so bad, we'll gladly let you try any other government. (oh say try one in the Middle East) You would be running back to your cozy couch so you can berate the very government that gave the right to be disrespectful (read: HATE)to it to the point of idiocity!!!
Try that in Syria/Iran/Korea.
I think my point is made.


jaime, actually your point is NOT made... This is MY country, and I think the government has dropped the ball on so many things, especially in the last 2 years, and I am not alone either, 2/3 of Americans see it and know it.

I totally support our troops, but right now, they are not fighting for OUR freedom, because that is not OUR country, they are doing their jobs, that the gov't sent them to do.

I am proud of our troops, and support them whole-heartedly, but the cause that we are in right now has NO justification, and our boys/girs are DIEING.

You want to ignore what is going on in our Nation, be my guest, but thank God I am part of the 2/3rds that SEE that we have to make a change, or we will go under.

So, see... your point is ONLY made to the 1/3 of the people who don't or won't open their eyes and SEE what is going on...

This is not the way our Country is supposed to run, we found that out back in the 60,s and 70,s... and how we have done a complete circle I dont know, but we have, and now we have to work doubly hard at digging out... AGAIN.

OHHH, and another point, this is MY country, and I do NOT have to try another, I just want to strive to make ours better. That comment is a cop-out, just to try to hush up those who dont believe the way you do... Been there, heard ALL that before.
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
quote:
Originally posted by resa1865:
This is in response to the post by Patriotwithoutabrain. You are so far beneath contempt, that words to tell you how I feel about the things you have said here fail me.


I am NOT ashamed of anything I say, anything I feel, or anything I KNOW. It is those of you who refuse to SEE or HEAR what is happening in our Nation who should be ashamed.

Read the replies, because you obviously have NOT, or otherwise, don't try to flaunt how 'smart' you are and pretend the rest of us are dumb.

Read Ed's reply... we have a man in the oval office who stole the first election, and barely even beat KERRY!... KERRY, lol... he almost beat Bush, and that even makes me laugh.

Over 2/3 of the Nation agree with most of the comments of these people who bared their soul... but you, sadly, remain in the 1/3 who refuse to admit there are things wrong, BAD wrong with these last 6 years.

<snip> [about the money] <snip>

That is NOT our country, and that is NOT our people...

I support the Troops (mauiboy especially via emails) but not the causes that we are there, it is none of our business how a country makes their laws.

Some of the laws made in the last 6 months here in the US were illegally made, so we cannot even make OUR laws right, and now we expect to nose in on someone else's HOUSE and make THEIR laws...

That is a country and culture we cannot nor will not EVER change, they are who they are, and always will be.

And if your son is here helping with Natural Disasters, then I applaud him, he is HERE, helping OUR people... how rewarding. Our troops are over there, doing their jobs too, but we do NOT know if they like it or not... the news is just too biased to know the "rest of the story" ...


Kindred,

Thanks again.

In the 40 years since my discharge from the ARMY a lot of things have changed in the world. During my service, we rose as a nation against the Soviet Union TWICE.
We delude ourselves if we think there is no danger to our liberty, or standard of living.
We need a military to protect us from people who would attack us. We don't need a military to attack them.
I do support the military, and at the moment it looks like the leaders of that military, with the exception of the Commander in Chief are willing and anxious to do their duty, defending this nation.
The issue is, What is the war in Iraq doing to DEFEND us? I don't see any real threat to our indepencence from Iraq. I do see a real dependence on the resource of Iraq, crude oil.
If we succeed in dominating Iraq, we will have to keep an armed force there till the oil is all gone. That's the only way we can prevent other nations from OUTBIDDING us for the crude oil.
I will say this again,
"We need a military to protect us from people who would attack us. We don't need a military to attack them."
I do support the Military, I do support the people who do the job. I DO NOT SUPPORT AGGRESSION, CONQUEST, PRE EMPTIVE WAR, OR ANY OTHER POLICY OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION.
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
quote:
Originally posted by resa1865:
This is in response to the post by Patriotwithoutabrain. You are so far beneath contempt, that words to tell you how I feel about the things you have said here fail me.


I am NOT ashamed of anything I say, anything I feel, or anything I KNOW. It is those of you who refuse to SEE or HEAR what is happening in our Nation who should be ashamed.

Read the replies, because you obviously have NOT, or otherwise, don't try to flaunt how 'smart' you are and pretend the rest of us are dumb.

Read Ed's reply... we have a man in the oval office who stole the first election, and barely even beat KERRY!... KERRY, lol... he almost beat Bush, and that even makes me laugh.

Over 2/3 of the Nation agree with most of the comments of these people who bared their soul... but you, sadly, remain in the 1/3 who refuse to admit there are things wrong, BAD wrong with these last 6 years.

<snip> [about the money] <snip>

That is NOT our country, and that is NOT our people...

I support the Troops (mauiboy especially via emails) but not the causes that we are there, it is none of our business how a country makes their laws.

Some of the laws made in the last 6 months here in the US were illegally made, so we cannot even make OUR laws right, and now we expect to nose in on someone else's HOUSE and make THEIR laws...

That is a country and culture we cannot nor will not EVER change, they are who they are, and always will be.

And if your son is here helping with Natural Disasters, then I applaud him, he is HERE, helping OUR people... how rewarding. Our troops are over there, doing their jobs too, but we do NOT know if they like it or not... the news is just too biased to know the "rest of the story" ...


Kindred,

Thanks again.

In the 40 years since my discharge from the ARMY a lot of things have changed in the world. During my service, we rose as a nation against the Soviet Union TWICE.
We delude ourselves if we think there is no danger to our liberty, or standard of living.
We need a military to protect us from people who would attack us. We don't need a military to attack them.
I do support the military, and at the moment it looks like the leaders of that military, with the exception of the Commander in Chief are willing and anxious to do their duty, defending this nation.
The issue is, What is the war in Iraq doing to DEFEND us? I don't see any real threat to our indepencence from Iraq. I do see a real dependence on the resource of Iraq, crude oil.
If we succeed in dominating Iraq, we will have to keep an armed force there till the oil is all gone. That's the only way we can prevent other nations from OUTBIDDING us for the crude oil.
I will say this again,
"We need a military to protect us from people who would attack us. We don't need a military to attack them."
I do support the Military, I do support the people who do the job. I DO NOT SUPPORT AGGRESSION, CONQUEST, PRE EMPTIVE WAR, OR ANY OTHER POLICY OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION.


Ed, the voice of reason!!! My Dad served in WWII for our FREEDOM, and also in Korea... but since then, the ONLY thing that has threatened our FREEDOM is new laws on wiretapping, reading mail and monitoring internet... Oh and Osama whats-his-name. Now if we were at war because of what he did on 9/11, then I think EVERYONE would believe in the cause.

But since we jumped in on Iraq for no apparent reason, it is not our cause, and as a tax-paying, self-supporting AMERICAN I can say that and I can voice my dislike of it, and it just fires my buns to hear people (those VERY FEW people) who cop-out with the ONLY thing they know to say and that is "try another country"...

I bet I have paid as much taxes as some people here, and more than most, and I refuse to let someone come on a board and tell me to try another country...

AMERICA is MY country, and WHEN it gets straightened out, and Bush no longer has that "blank check" and has PEOPLE he has to answer to, then everyone might just see some good come out of it... IF they can SEE, HEAR or COMPREHEND, that is, lol.
I realize that I have been out of the state since 2003 (that's when my USAR unit deployed to Fort Dix, NJ), but I can't believe how gullible and moronic some of the people from my home state have become. People like KS who still say "BUSH STOLE THE ELECTION", and ED who states that "I DO NOT SUPPORT AGGRESSION, CONQUEST, PRE EMPTIVE WAR, OR ANY OTHER POLICY OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION" or any of the other blithering idiots who believe we are in Irag for OIL!! Can any of you point to the FIRST DROP of oil that we have gotten from Iraq? That's what I thought. Quit reading the NY TIMES. Stop listening to MSNBC. Get out and do some research on your own. Do you people really not understand the fact that WHEN we get Iraq back on it's feet with a strong central government, they will be a great influance on the region and a wonderful ally if (probably when) the time comes to deal with Syria and Iran. I spend every day preparing Soldiers to go to Iraq and Afganistan. I also have the wonderful opportunity to talk with the Soldiers who are coming back from both. I can honestly say that in over 3 years, I have NEVER heard a Soldier say anything but how PROUD they are of the job we are doing in both countries. I truly feel sorry for some of you. You need to get up from your computer and get outside. Your ideas about this country and this war would not survive the cleansing effects of the sun.

Southern Patriot
quote:
Originally posted by sstarns01:
I realize that I have been out of the state since 2003 (that's when my USAR unit deployed to Fort Dix, NJ), but I can't believe how gullible and moronic some of the people from my home state have become. People like KS who still say "BUSH STOLE THE ELECTION", and ED who states that "I DO NOT SUPPORT AGGRESSION, CONQUEST, PRE EMPTIVE WAR, OR ANY OTHER POLICY OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION" or any of the other blithering idiots who believe we are in Irag for OIL!! Can any of you point to the FIRST DROP of oil that we have gotten from Iraq? That's what I thought. Quit reading the NY TIMES. Stop listening to MSNBC. Get out and do some research on your own. Do you people really not understand the fact that WHEN we get Iraq back on it's feet with a strong central government, they will be a great influance on the region and a wonderful ally if (probably when) the time comes to deal with Syria and Iran. I spend every day preparing Soldiers to go to Iraq and Afganistan. I also have the wonderful opportunity to talk with the Soldiers who are coming back from both. I can honestly say that in over 3 years, I have NEVER heard a Soldier say anything but how PROUD they are of the job we are doing in both countries. I truly feel sorry for some of you. You need to get up from your computer and get outside. Your ideas about this country and this war would not survive the cleansing effects of the sun.

Southern Patriot


sstarns, we HAVE done research, and we have lived through other "cold wars" and we DO know what we are talking about. QUIT READING NY TIMES... guess TimesDaily will be glad to hear that one, since they are owned by NY Times, lol.

And we can have our own opinions, remember the first amendment to the constitution??? It says FREEDOM OF SPEECH... it dont add that UNLESS you disagree with the president or 1/3rd of the rest of the Nation... Roll Eyes

And what else do you expect ANY soldier to say? I expect each and every one of them to say what they are told to say.

Besides... I have already forgot more than you will ever know about this sort of activity... end of comment, lol.
KS
Just to respond to your scattered little post:
1.)I know who owns the TD. Don't care. I only read to keep up with what is happening in my old stomping grounds. 2.) I never said you were not entitled to freedom of speech, I just wish you would educate yourself before you use it. 3.) I am also a Soldier (you should always capitalize Soldier when you are use it in written form because it is a name. See, you learned something today) and I NEVER say anything just because my Commander or anyone else says so. PERIOD. If you really believe that to be so, you are even farther gone than I thought. 4.) What could you possibly know, much less forgot, about this "activity" than I will ever know. Please do feel me in.

Southern Patriot
I have read this whole thread. I've agreed with a lot and disagreed with a lot, and quite honestly this is the thread that I joined to reply to.

I do not support this war at all. However, I do support our troops. I have a few friends that are over in Iraq right now, and I pray that they do make it back. Each of them joined after 9-11 when patriotism was high, and when they all wanted to serve. Each of them now feel like they have been swindled at least a bit. They are proud to serve and fight for their country, but their morale is down and all of them feel like they shouldn't be in Iraq at all.

I don't really know what the official reason for us being in Iraq is now. It's changed so much, and since the war was officially declared "over" like two years ago, we are still there. It boggles my mind.

Since I just read it, I have to say to Southern Patriot. This is why being American is good. You can call my mom (Kindred Spirit) and anyone else on here "moronic", "idiot", and "gullible" (despite actually calling the person out who wrote this *raises eyebrow*)anytime you wish to do so. However, does that really help your cause and make you feel better? Unfortunately, it's not going to change people's minds, especially if you belittle them. Smiler

I'm the first to admit that I don't like Bush. The first election I wasn't old enough to vote it, but this last one I voted by character, and Bush's character to me had been soiled over the years. He is still our President, and I respect that he is in office, but I do not respect the job that he has done thus far.


That's the way I feel without any propaganda put forthwith, and nothing anyone can say or post or do, will change that.

If you really have served this country, then I thank you for your service. Do not get me (or my mom) wrong, we are strong supporters of the troops. She is more of a political debator, and I'm not. I usually just read. But, we are allowed the right to voice our likes and dislikes just like everyone else.

This was enlightening to read, for sure. Big Grin

~Manda~
sstarns01, the great "southern patriot"...

I will let the rest of what you said slide, but please do not lecture KindredSprirt-- or anyone else for that matter-- on spelling, punctuation, or capitalization.

For the record, "soldier" is NOT capitalized, unless it is at the beginning of a sentence.

Ask anyone with the most remote familiarity with the English language. You might have to go outside your immediate circle of family and friends to accomplish this, but you can do it.

Examples:

"He was the best soldier in the unit."

"It was sure a shame when those American soldiers vaginally and anally raped that 12-year-old Iraqi girl and then murdered her, along with her entire family."

"I hope they hang those soldiers with the same rope they used on Saddam, who acted like more of a gentleman on the gallows than those miserable cowards probably will when their time comes."

Always glad to help out,

PWAB
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
sstarns01, the great "southern patriot"...

I will let the rest of what you said slide, but please do not lecture KindredSprirt-- or anyone else for that matter-- on spelling, punctuation, or capitalization.

For the record, "soldier" is NOT capitalized, unless it is at the beginning of a sentence.

Ask anyone with the most remote familiarity with the English language. You might have to go outside your immediate circle of family and friends to accomplish this, but you can do it.

Examples:

"He was the best soldier in the unit."

"It was sure a shame when those American soldiers vaginally and anally raped that 12-year-old Iraqi girl and then murdered her, along with her entire family."

"I hope they hang those soldiers with the same rope they used on Saddam, who acted like more of a gentleman on the gallows than those miserable cowards probably will when their time comes."

Always glad to help out,

PWAB


LOL! Even though I do not agree with some of your ideas, I can appreciate some of your humor!
quote:
Originally posted by sstarns01:
I realize that I have been out of the state since 2003 (that's when my USAR unit deployed to Fort Dix, NJ), but I can't believe how gullible and moronic some of the people from my home state have become. People like KS who still say "BUSH STOLE THE ELECTION", and ED who states that "I DO NOT SUPPORT AGGRESSION, CONQUEST, PRE EMPTIVE WAR, OR ANY OTHER POLICY OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION" or any of the other blithering idiots who believe we are in Irag for OIL!! Can any of you point to the FIRST DROP of oil that we have gotten from Iraq? That's what I thought. Quit reading the NY TIMES. Stop listening to MSNBC. Get out and do some research on your own. Do you people really not understand the fact that WHEN we get Iraq back on it's feet with a strong central government, they will be a great influance on the region and a wonderful ally if (probably when) the time comes to deal with Syria and Iran. I spend every day preparing Soldiers to go to Iraq and Afganistan. I also have the wonderful opportunity to talk with the Soldiers who are coming back from both. I can honestly say that in over 3 years, I have NEVER heard a Soldier say anything but how PROUD they are of the job we are doing in both countries. I truly feel sorry for some of you. You need to get up from your computer and get outside. Your ideas about this country and this war would not survive the cleansing effects of the sun.

Southern Patriot

Gee Starns,
Bush Junior decided to invade Iraq when the people who supported his election told him that was a prerequisite to their support.
Do you expect to see any Oil from Iraq. WHEN WE FINALLY LIBERATE IT, we will do what we do with MOST of the Alaska oil, SHIP IT OFF TO CHINA. Iraq oil is not now a major part of ANY country's consumption. IT IS NOT GETTING OUT OF THE COUNTRY.
Starns, you need to look into the pipeline network, the sea ports where the tankers load up, and the PRICE of crude.
At 50 dollars a barrel, the tar sands of VENEZUELA can supply all the fuel needs of the world, at present consumption, for 500 years. BUT THAT IS AT 50 A BARREL. At 22 dollars a bbl the oil in KANSAS is not recoverable. AT $55, the oil Shale in Wyoming could provide a domestic source that would TOTALLY ELIMINATE the need for importation. Canada is seeing an oil production boom in their oil sands, and they are selling to a willing customer, China.
Fella, the cost of a gallon of gasoline depends on a number of factors. NOT least among them the cost of transporting it to the service station.
If we were not making war, but were instead making pipelines, Russian oil would be going to refineries in Iran and Iraq, and it would be getting made into fuels and feed stock for plastics and SHIPPED TO CHINA, JAPAN, SOUTH KOREA, INDIA and PAKISTAN. The value of oil would DROP LIKE A STONE IN AN ELEVATOR SHAFT. Kansas, Texas and Wyoming would SHUT DOWN all production. WE would be dependent on imported oil too. Then, when all the EASY TO GET NEARBY SUPPLIES were used up, we would start up again in Kansas and Wyoming and Oklahoma and Texas, and Southern California, and on and on and on. Pennsylvania might even become an oil producer again.
If you want to justify the war in Iraq, you need to JUSTIFY GOING TO WAR TO LINE SOMEONE ELSE'S POCKET.
Regarding "dealing with Syria and Iran" we should deal with them. Pay for what they have and we need, and otherwise LEAVE THEM TO THEIR OWN WAYS.
By the way and this is no secret, nor is it an issue, I trained at the Communication School at Fort Dix, and I while I have visited Alabama, and like the state a lot, I live in Arizona.
PWAB.
For your general wealth of information. The word soldier will always be capitalized when used in the first person, (i.e. Tho Soldiers of the United States Army have peformed a service for the Iraqi people by freeing them from the tyrany of Saddam. If they want to kill themselves in a civil war now, so be it.). I write the word anywhere from 5 to 500 times a day, on a military installation, and I know how it should be capitalized.
And by the way, if the BS you wrote about the 12 year old is true then the Soldiers should be and will be hung with the same rope. If you got that little tidbit from the nightly new, I would recommend getting some proof before you repeat it.
quote:
Originally posted by jaime:
Resa, best post of the whole thread!!!
I thank you and I haven't even been in the service. But I am smart enough to know what freedoms we've been given because of our troops, and what it meant and the cost to get those freedoms. If anyone here thinks our government is so bad, we'll gladly let you try any other government. (oh say try one in the Middle East) You would be running back to your cozy couch so you can berate the very government that gave the right to be disrespectful (read: HATE)to it to the point of idiocity!!!
Try that in Syria/Iran/Korea.
I think my point is made.

Jamie,
You have it backwards. WE DEMANDED AND WON OUR FREEDOMS ONLY ONCE. Since then the Military has been protecting them.
That may be a fine distinction, but there have been occasions when the military did not protect but opposed liberty. KENT STATE. The military has been used frequently to protect property, occasionally to protect individuals, SELMA SCHOOL INTEGRATION.
At its best government uses force to intervene between one group that has a right, and another group that wants that right denied. At its worst, it denies liberties. It NEVER grants or creates liberties. By definition Government Governs. (capitalization for emphasis for those of you who are sticklers for OBEDIENCE TO RULES.
quote:
Originally posted by sstarns01:
or any of the other blithering idiots who believe we are in Irag for OIL!! Southern Patriot


Did your parents have any intelligent children?

I take exception to your ridiculous comment. I've spoken with several Marines, and that includes my son, who would have a different opinion. When you are the point of the spear, doing the killing and getting killed you may have change of heart.

You must have missed world history.

Good luck.
quote:
Originally posted by that smart chick:
Did I ever defend the politics regarding the war in Iraq? No.

I simply stated that it is a soldier's JOB to follow orders and those orders involve a certain degree of risk. Those risks include going to war and getting killed.

The statements in my post were in defense of the people who choose to defend this country. I support them, I support the job they are doing, and I support their choice to join the military. I do not, however support the President's choice regarding the war in Iraq.

I never said that the war in Iraq was about defending our freedom. PWAB's original post stated that he didn't feel any compassion for soldiers fighting in the war because they are / were aware of the occupational hazzard when they signed up for the armed services. I ask, does the same apply to firefighters, police, and others who risk their lives for the greater good of the greatest number of citizens.

You, mandomama, are advised to stop jumping to conclusions and shoving your words in my mouth and start reading posts before you go off on the poster.

You have it right chick,
Lt Ehren Watada has it right too.
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by sstarns01:
or any of the other blithering idiots who believe we are in Irag for OIL!! Southern Patriot


Did your parents have any intelligent children?

I take exception to your ridiculous comment. I've spoken with several Marines, and that includes my son, who would have a different opinion. When you are the point of the spear, doing the killing and getting killed you may have change of heart.

You must have missed world history.

Good luck.


miamizsun... what a great comment, and so truthful too. I know a whole lot of soldiers who disagree with this young man who is spouting off at the mouth, WITHOUT reading the entire post. Probably read enough to make him angry and he just came in spouting.

My very own daughter created an account here so she could have her say, and a lot of her friends have been there, and upon coming home, they DO share the horrible times, and the REASONING behind them having to go there in the first place. One of them even told us one night, that when he joined, it was to go to Afganastan to get Osama, and ended up in Iraq. Wow, and he knew not WHY!!!

I haven't read all these comments yet, since I got home from work, took me a while to figure out how to change from my daughter's account to mine, lol.

But sstarns, you came on too strong, you slung insults at people who have said time and time again WE ARE BEHIND OUR TROOPS, and you started the name calling, sstarns, which was horrible.

And I captalize what and when I want to, or when my shift key is working right, whatever the case may be... As far as capitalizing SOLDIERS, what does it matter on a board like this, if one has to type as quick as possible, and makes, what YOU think is a typo, SO WHAT??? WHO CARES??? And now, since I allow you to teach me how to captalize Soldier, in your case I will not do so, because someone supposedly fighting for OUR freedoms, you sure are rude, crude, and just plain awful on a board where people are trying to voice in TYPEWRITTEN words how they feel.

So now that you are a big boy and have served your time, you can read my facial expressions??? You can see my eyes??? You can predict what people MEAN through the typewritten word? No you cannot, no one can, because without that benefit, things can be said wrong.

I suggest you grow up a little more, and OPEN your eyes to see what is going on around you before coming here and acting like we are dummies.

I could go on, but that is all I feel like "teaching" at the moment, lol
Last edited by Kindred
quote:
Originally posted by sstarns01:
PWAB.
For your general wealth of information. The word soldier will always be capitalized when used in the first person, (i.e. Tho Soldiers of the United States Army have peformed a service for the Iraqi people by freeing them from the tyrany of Saddam. If they want to kill themselves in a civil war now, so be it.). I write the word anywhere from 5 to 500 times a day, on a military installation, and I know how it should be capitalized.
And by the way, if the BS you wrote about the 12 year old is true then the Soldiers should be and will be hung with the same rope. If you got that little tidbit from the nightly new, I would recommend getting some proof before you repeat it.


From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access

[DOCID:chapter_txt-3]

[Page 23-34]

[[Page 23]]


3. CAPITALIZATION RULES

3.5. A common noun or adjective forming an essential part of
a proper name is capitalized; the common noun used alone as a
substitute for the name of a place or thing is not capitalized.

Soldiers' Home of Ohio; the soldiers' home

Soldiers' Home, if part of name: Ohio Soldiers' Home; the soldiers' home; etc.



.....and the debate rages on.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
sstarns01, the great "southern patriot"...

I will let the rest of what you said slide, but please do not lecture KindredSprirt-- or anyone else for that matter-- on spelling, punctuation, or capitalization.

For the record, "soldier" is NOT capitalized, unless it is at the beginning of a sentence.

Ask anyone with the most remote familiarity with the English language. You might have to go outside your immediate circle of family and friends to accomplish this, but you can do it.

Examples:

"He was the best soldier in the unit."

"It was sure a shame when those American soldiers vaginally and anally raped that 12-year-old Iraqi girl and then murdered her, along with her entire family."

"I hope they hang those soldiers with the same rope they used on Saddam, who acted like more of a gentleman on the gallows than those miserable cowards probably will when their time comes."

Always glad to help out,

PWAB


PWAB-- I gave you some lee way, but you crossed the line. What those kids did to that girl and her family was horrible. Please, do not use it so lightly. I understand that you were trying to make a point, but their was a better way to do it and you already made comments about these incidents in a previous post(didn't think this dumb soldier would read back that far did you)lol...

Okay, on the subject of capitalizing Ss in the word Soldier. In military correspondence a directive, order, memorandum, whatever simply stated that the word Soldier will be capitalized. What our Southern Gentlemen in Jersey failed to clarify is that it is for Military Correspondence only. I believe Brentenman can back me on this, Where are you???

Southern Patriot-- I realize you have trained and spoken to many troops who have served in both Afghanistan and Iraq. For that, I appreciate you. TRADOC is what killed my Active Duty career... Simply stated, "it ain't the real Army". Anyway, my question to you is if you have been to either place??? I will let you answer and then we'll go from there.

I would like for you to realize that the points you made may have been more appreciated and accepted had you not been so ugly in making your point. In fact I pointed this out to PWAB. He seems to be intelligent, but his arrogance tends to just get you angry at what he has to say. My opinion.

People need to get the "love it or leave it" mentality out of your head. If people were not able to express their opinions this post wouldn't even exist. Remember the Soldier, I like to capitalize it anywaySmiler, fights not only for those who support him/her, but for those who don't. We fight for those who choose to stand up against something they do not believe in and for those who choose to drink kool-aidSmiler I had to BrentenmanSmiler Listen, I've been through alot these last couple of days just ask K.S. Just remember that having these discussions is the American way. It is our life. You don't have to throw stones to state your opinion. By telling someone to go find another country, just doesn't make sense. Calling someone a moron, doesn't help you make your case. Appreciate the fact that so many people can have so many different opinions. I love my Country....
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by jaime:
Resa, best post of the whole thread!!!
I thank you and I haven't even been in the service. But I am smart enough to know what freedoms we've been given because of our troops, and what it meant and the cost to get those freedoms. If anyone here thinks our government is so bad, we'll gladly let you try any other government. (oh say try one in the Middle East) You would be running back to your cozy couch so you can berate the very government that gave the right to be disrespectful (read: HATE)to it to the point of idiocity!!!
Try that in Syria/Iran/Korea.
I think my point is made.

Jamie,
You have it backwards. WE DEMANDED AND WON OUR FREEDOMS ONLY ONCE. Since then the Military has been protecting them.
That may be a fine distinction, but there have been occasions when the military did not protect but opposed liberty. KENT STATE. The military has been used frequently to protect property, occasionally to protect individuals, SELMA SCHOOL INTEGRATION.
At its best government uses force to intervene between one group that has a right, and another group that wants that right denied. At its worst, it denies liberties. It NEVER grants or creates liberties. By definition Government Governs. (capitalization for emphasis for those of you who are sticklers for OBEDIENCE TO RULES.


Once AGAIN Ed, you are correct!!! We demanded and won our freedoms, many many years ago. Vietnam and Iraq has nothing to do with the freedom of the US of A.

MONEY, MONEY, MONEY... this is a Rich man's war, and anyone who don't believe that, then bury your heads deeper...

Like I said earlier... OVER 2/3rds of our Nation believes like I do, so I cannot be too wrong.

But again, so there are no misconceptions... I SUPPORT OUR TROOPS, in whatever endeavor our gov't puts them to do, whether here in America or on foreign soil.. I support and love each person in the military who is doing their jobs. I also know a lot of them that are doing their jobs do not believe in the cause either. They aren't rich, so therefore cannot understand the RICH MANS War.
mauiboy71: I got your six....and you are correct. Soldier is the correct way to spell it, with capital S, just like Marine, Airman, or Sailor. The change took effect last year.

mauiboy71: send me some-more details as requested via AKO when you have a chance.
Also, notified my entire class on what happened last week, all send their good lucks and best wishes considering the situation. Also, they say "thank you" for the information you have given me so far that I DISTROED out.
quote:
Originally posted by mauiboy71:
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
sstarns01, the great "southern patriot"...

I will let the rest of what you said slide, but please do not lecture KindredSprirt-- or anyone else for that matter-- on spelling, punctuation, or capitalization.

For the record, "soldier" is NOT capitalized, unless it is at the beginning of a sentence.

Ask anyone with the most remote familiarity with the English language. You might have to go outside your immediate circle of family and friends to accomplish this, but you can do it.

Examples:

"He was the best soldier in the unit."

"It was sure a shame when those American soldiers vaginally and anally raped that 12-year-old Iraqi girl and then murdered her, along with her entire family."

"I hope they hang those soldiers with the same rope they used on Saddam, who acted like more of a gentleman on the gallows than those miserable cowards probably will when their time comes."

Always glad to help out,

PWAB


PWAB-- I gave you some lee way, but you crossed the line. What those kids did to that girl and her family was horrible. Please, do not use it so lightly. I understand that you were trying to make a point, but their was a better way to do it and you already made comments about these incidents in a previous post(didn't think this dumb soldier would read back that far did you)lol...

Okay, on the subject of capitalizing Ss in the word Soldier. In military correspondence a directive, order, memorandum, whatever simply stated that the word Soldier will be capitalized. What our Southern Gentlemen in Jersey failed to clarify is that it is for Military Correspondence only. I believe Brentenman can back me on this, Where are you???

Southern Patriot-- I realize you have trained and spoken to many troops who have served in both Afghanistan and Iraq. For that, I appreciate you. TRADOC is what killed my Active Duty career... Simply stated, "it ain't the real Army". Anyway, my question to you is if you have been to either place??? I will let you answer and then we'll go from there.

I would like for you to realize that the points you made may have been more appreciated and accepted had you not been so ugly in making your point. In fact I pointed this out to PWAB. He seems to be intelligent, but his arrogance tends to just get you angry at what he has to say. My opinion.

People need to get the "love it or leave it" mentality out of your head. If people were not able to express their opinions this post wouldn't even exist. Remember the Soldier, I like to capitalize it anywaySmiler, fights not only for those who support him/her, but for those who don't. We fight for those who choose to stand up against something they do not believe in and for those who choose to drink kool-aidSmiler I had to BrentenmanSmiler Listen, I've been through alot these last couple of days just ask K.S. Just remember that having these discussions is the American way. It is our life. You don't have to throw stones to state your opinion. By telling someone to go find another country, just doesn't make sense. Calling someone a moron, doesn't help you make your case. Appreciate the fact that so many people can have so many different opinions. I love my Country....


mauiboy, it is so late there, why arent you asleep, hehe!!! What a very well thought out, INTELLIGENT comment. I cannot appreciate you enough!!! You already know that though, our emails tells me a lot, as it tells you a lot, and I cannot wait till you, Soldier that you are, gets to go home to your wife and beautiful children!!!! That is in my prayers.

PWAB does go over the line, WAY over, but so does this other person... whom I will not stoop to his level and call him names.

I daresay that if sstarns (Southern Patriot) superiors knew that he took it upon himself to take AWAY our freedom of speech by belittling, insulting, and namecalling just to fit HIS mood, they wouldn't like it... after all... his point was FREEDOM, right?

maui... You are my one true hero and you are a great Soldier who got injured in action and you have the Admiration of this entire board. You are a true Soldier because you came here, and allowed us to speak our peace, and you spoke yours, and mutual respect was created. I applaud you, I admire you, and I thank you for being a great voice for our Armed Services in Iraq.

And psssst, I am waiting to see if this person who is insulting everyone has ever been there too... Smiler

Stay safe, and take care!!!!
Last edited by Kindred
quote:
Originally posted by Brentenman:
mauiboy71: I got your six....and you are correct. Soldier is the correct way to spell it, with capital S, just like Marine, Airman, or Sailor. The change took effect last year.

mauiboy71: send me some-more details as requested via AKO when you have a chance.
Also, notified my entire class on what happened last week, all send their good lucks and best wishes considering the situation. Also, they say "thank you" for the information you have given me so far that I DISTROED out.


Brentman, like yourself, I have been emailing mauiboy, and he is one first class Soldier!!! There is no doubt in my mind. I have told some of the people I work with about what happened to him last Friday, and he is now is a VERY large prayer circle right here in our area... I think that is awesome!!!

I look forward to meeting him, his wife and his children, and so does my family... Everyone here is excited to meet such a wonderful, intelligent Soldier, filled with Common Sense... There is nothing but utmost respect...
quote:
Originally posted by Brentenman:
mauiboy71: I got your six....and you are correct. Soldier is the correct way to spell it, with capital S, just like Marine, Airman, or Sailor. The change took effect last year.

mauiboy71: send me some-more details as requested via AKO when you have a chance.
Also, notified my entire class on what happened last week, all send their good lucks and best wishes considering the situation. Also, they say "thank you" for the information you have given me so far that I DISTROED out.


I have some pics I can send you, but will have to call you about the rest. Thanks to all your class for their thoughts. You know as well as I do that none of it is easy. I'll leave it at that. Take care and God Bless
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
quote:
Originally posted by mauiboy71:
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
sstarns01, the great "southern patriot"...

I will let the rest of what you said slide, but please do not lecture KindredSprirt-- or anyone else for that matter-- on spelling, punctuation, or capitalization.

For the record, "soldier" is NOT capitalized, unless it is at the beginning of a sentence.

Ask anyone with the most remote familiarity with the English language. You might have to go outside your immediate circle of family and friends to accomplish this, but you can do it.

Examples:

"He was the best soldier in the unit."

"It was sure a shame when those American soldiers vaginally and anally raped that 12-year-old Iraqi girl and then murdered her, along with her entire family."

"I hope they hang those soldiers with the same rope they used on Saddam, who acted like more of a gentleman on the gallows than those miserable cowards probably will when their time comes."

Always glad to help out,

PWAB


PWAB-- I gave you some lee way, but you crossed the line. What those kids did to that girl and her family was horrible. Please, do not use it so lightly. I understand that you were trying to make a point, but their was a better way to do it and you already made comments about these incidents in a previous post(didn't think this dumb soldier would read back that far did you)lol...

Okay, on the subject of capitalizing Ss in the word Soldier. In military correspondence a directive, order, memorandum, whatever simply stated that the word Soldier will be capitalized. What our Southern Gentlemen in Jersey failed to clarify is that it is for Military Correspondence only. I believe Brentenman can back me on this, Where are you???

Southern Patriot-- I realize you have trained and spoken to many troops who have served in both Afghanistan and Iraq. For that, I appreciate you. TRADOC is what killed my Active Duty career... Simply stated, "it ain't the real Army". Anyway, my question to you is if you have been to either place??? I will let you answer and then we'll go from there.

I would like for you to realize that the points you made may have been more appreciated and accepted had you not been so ugly in making your point. In fact I pointed this out to PWAB. He seems to be intelligent, but his arrogance tends to just get you angry at what he has to say. My opinion.

People need to get the "love it or leave it" mentality out of your head. If people were not able to express their opinions this post wouldn't even exist. Remember the Soldier, I like to capitalize it anywaySmiler, fights not only for those who support him/her, but for those who don't. We fight for those who choose to stand up against something they do not believe in and for those who choose to drink kool-aidSmiler I had to BrentenmanSmiler Listen, I've been through alot these last couple of days just ask K.S. Just remember that having these discussions is the American way. It is our life. You don't have to throw stones to state your opinion. By telling someone to go find another country, just doesn't make sense. Calling someone a moron, doesn't help you make your case. Appreciate the fact that so many people can have so many different opinions. I love my Country....


mauiboy, it is so late there, why arent you asleep, hehe!!! What a very well thought out, INTELLIGENT comment. I cannot appreciate you enough!!! You already know that though, our emails tells me a lot, as it tells you a lot, and I cannot wait till you, Soldier that you are, gets to go home to your wife and beautiful children!!!! That is in my prayers.

PWAB does go over the line, WAY over, but so does this other person... whom I will not stoop to his level and call him names.

I daresay that if his superiors knew that he took it upon himself to take AWAY our freedom of speech by belittling, insulting, and namecalling just to fit HIS mood, they wouldn't like it... after all... his point was FREEDOM, right?

maui... You are my one true hero and you are a great Soldier who got injured in action and you have the Admiration of this entire board. You are a true Soldier because you came here, and allowed us to speak our peace, and you spoke yours, and mutual respect was created. I applaud you, I admire you, and I thank you for being a great voice for our Armed Services in Iraq.

And psssst, I am waiting to see if this person who is insulting everyone has ever been there too... Smiler

Stay safe, and take care!!!!


K.S.-- you're making me blush Red Face just kidding. It is late, but sleep is minimal here anyway. Sorry all, I've kind of made this my personal talking board. Thanks K.S. can't wait to meet you all.
quote:
Originally posted by sstarns01:
KS
Just to respond to your scattered little post:
1.)I know who owns the TD. Don't care. I only read to keep up with what is happening in my old stomping grounds. 2.) I never said you were not entitled to freedom of speech, I just wish you would educate yourself before you use it. 3.) I am also a Soldier (you should always capitalize Soldier when you are use it in written form because it is a name. See, you learned something today) and I NEVER say anything just because my Commander or anyone else says so. PERIOD. If you really believe that to be so, you are even farther gone than I thought. 4.) What could you possibly know, much less forgot, about this "activity" than I will ever know. Please do feel me in.

Southern Patriot


A LOT more than I am willing to tell someone who comes to a board, and starts out calling everyone idiots, morons, and the like... That, to me, proves your intellect.... Tell us YOUR Military Background... Where have you served, how long have you been in, any medals yet? Give us something to respect about you, except the namecalling and I bet you just MIGHT get some respect back, but until then, you don't have mine.

Your first task here is to go back and READ every single post by every single person, so you can get a 'feel' of what and why certain things were said.

And PLEASE, before you do that, just know that PWAB does NOT speak for all of us, only himself... oh, sorry, that was lesson #2.. but oh well, we need to clear the air, and this is the only way I know how to do it.

Oh and another thing, I don't say we are over in Iraq for Oil, all that Oil has already been sold anyway... we are over there for MONEY... the one thing better than Oil, is MONEY... now think about it.

We SHOULD be hunting down Osama, instead of re-working a country that we don't own, we dont live there, we don't make their laws, we didn't create their culture... and so far, NO ONE, not even Fox news can give one good reason to be in Iraq. God knows I wish they could.
Awww, mauiboy, I just now read your email to my home email .... we have been emailing all day from my work email... I am so sorry about your friend. Your wounds, and this fatality must really hurt you, and I am praying with all my might that God sees you through all this bad time.

You are a strong man and a great Soldier, and my hat is off to you for what you are going through.

God Bless you, my young friend!!!! And He will.
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by moms3babes2000:
<SNIP>

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16472777/

(READ ARTICLE ABOVE) Bush doesn't abide by ANY law, he writes his own, and has done it several times over last two years, ... <SNIP> Whew, sorry about the rant, had to get that off my chest.... things are wrong, things in America is wrong, bad wrong... if WE are supposed to be free, and our troops are fighting for our freedom, then why in hell do we have a President taking away our freedoms left and right?

But no matter what, my thoughts and my mind is with the troops over there THINKING they are fighting for our freedoms, probably not even knowing that the President himself is the one taking them away. . . How did we get in this conditions????
[COLOR:RED]EMPHASIS MINE

Just how did we allow ONE SINGLE man so much power????
EMPHASIS MINE
Thought we had laws, but DUBBYA has proven that we only have laws when it is convenient to the gov't.[/color]


THAT QUESTION IS THE ONE I WANT ANSWERED. I want my representative, and your representative to get ON THE BALL, and stop this ursurpation of American Liberties by the DOMINEERING MAN OF GOD WE BARELY ALLOWED INTO THE OVAL OFFICE TWICE.


Ed, the entire United States should demand that answer...we have a right to know how this man got where he is, and is above the law.

You remember back when he started wiretapping, and the judge told him it was illegal, he then told her that he appealed her decision and would continue to wiretap until it reached appeal... now call THAT POWER... I am amazed.

They wanted to impeach Clinton for Monica, and that didn't affect anyone but Bill, Hillary and Monica..

We were going to impeach Nixon for Watergate, another wiretapping thing, but he resigned first..

Now Bush is getting away with EVERYTHING, and I DO MEAN EVERYTHING, and we have slowly been acclimated to it, .... well not anymore...

Americans should DEMAND answers from their local Congressmen and Senators as to WHY he was given this much power to override the Constitution of the United states, by making his own laws, to suit his own needs.... Yet, we are so acclimated to all the rhetoric, that we just allow it to happen.

Someone, somewhere will do something, I dont know what to do, except sign a petition for impeachment, or else take away his check book and take away his and Cheney's power by using the LEGAL means to do so....
I want everyone here to know that the board here to know that any of the last comments I have made referred to sstarns (Southern Patriot) and not to anyone else... All of our Military men on this board deserves respect... mainly because they GIVE respect.

I am sorry if anyone thought I was talking about someone else!!!
Kindred,

I am badly hurt, not by anthing you have said, but by what the Government I pledged allegiance to for my whole life, is doing.
We can stop children, we can pull back, we can pay for the damages of the brawl, and we can beg for mercy and maybe avoid punitive damages, BUT WE ARE GUILTY already of making a war of aggression. And we did not need to.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
I know enough to know that many-- hell, MOST of you-- will violently disagree with this, and given the prevailing national state of ignorance of the facts of global politics, it is only natural for you to do so. As a REAL American, I strongly support and respect your right to disagree.

Now, on to my point:

At a holiday gathering this weekend, I was with friends watching a hilarious montage of sports bloopers-- you know the ones: skateboard accidents, bobsledding nightmares, rodeos where the bull manages to inflict some kind of hilarious injury to the nether parts of the contestant...

As we laughed, I admitted to my friends that I always secretly root for the bull in these events-- it's an innocent animal being exploited for the amusement of a crowd of inbred idiots who SHOULD be at home teaching their kids to read-- so I feel that the bull is eminently more deserving of my sympathies than the redneck who wasn't smart enough to find a more enlightening hobby than risking his own life in the noble pursuit of tormenting more-or-less defenseless animals.

Ditto the kid who decides that it's a nifty idea to ride his skateboard down a fifty-foot handrail, only to perform a spectacular face-plant on the concrete below-- I can't bring myself to feel sorry for a guy who put himself in that position. Read a book, for %$&@'s sake! Enrich yourself a little! Watch the news and be informed! Take up chess, or golf, or join a softball league! Why knowingly engage in an activity for which human beings were not engineered by whatever Creator in whom you choose to believe? I support your right to DO it, but I'm not going to feel terribly sorry for you.

This got me started thinking about the 3,000-plus American kids-- and let's admit it, they're KIDS-- who have now been killed while occupying a foriegn country whose main offense against the United States seems to be an assassination attempt on Bush the Elder, which is of course a dubious claim for which I've never seen a scintilla of evidence.

I was shocked and appalled at the trend over the last few years of people PROTESTING at the funerals of dead American soldiers. It went against every tenet of my personal system of ethics. But you know what? The more I think about it (and that's been a LOT lately), while I still find the protests at funerals to be uncivilized and indecent, I think I now understand it.

Why?

Because I not only don't support the Occupation of Iraq-- I don't support the troops, either.

Most of you will stop reading at this point to rattle off vicious replies that showcase your lack of information, but for those of you who are intrigued enough to continue reading, here's my justification for NOT signing on with the typical anti-war statement that I "oppose the war, but support the troops".

These kids weren't drafted. Vietnam taught us that any future attempt at a draft would be disastrous and lead to another 1960's-style countercultural revolution, and the fat bastards in Washington far prefer our current sedated, ignorant state of patriotic bliss.

Thus, these kids went and SIGNED UP to go occupy (illegally, as far as I can tell) a foriegn nation, knowing full well that they were placing themselves in great bodily harm and potentially wrecking their loving families who might have to stand over their freshly-dug graves crying the way their child "sacrificed" his life for his country.

I call "BS" on this one. Iraq wasn't going to hurt us in a million years-- they wouldn't have been capable of hurting ANYONE without all the poison gas and other assorted death toys that Don Rumsfeld and other American dip***** passed out like lollipops back in the 70's and 80's.

If these soldiers weren't well-informed enough to take think better of taking a highly dangerous job that pays so little that they would qualify for food stamps, than I think perhaps that every time one of them dies from "insurgent" sniper fire or an IED, that's Darwin at work. Weeding out those who aren't savvy, hip, or educated enough to understand the news (maybe they were watching Fox News, but that's only further proves my point-- Fox News has been indisputably proven to be a woefully pathetic source of "news" and is really just a propaganda tool of the Republicans).

It's sad that these dead occupiers leave behind young widows and fatherless children, but in truth, perhaps those children will have a chance at a better life if their moms marry a guy who has the good sense to know the difference between "national duty" and "participating in a calculated effort to destabilize the Middle East, steal a bunch of oil, and avenge the humiliation of Bush the Elder by removing Saddam". Such a stepfather would likely do a far better job at raising the child of a dead American soldier than said soldier would have done had he survived the occupation.

It's nobody's obligation to "serve" America by participating in this war. Iraq was NOT involved in 9/11, but 9/11 WAS the driving emotional force behind MANY of the enlistments. Occupying Iraq is NOT a "service to America" or a "fight for justice"-- it's jackbooted thuggery in which we are stealing natural resources from a nation with a soverign who, while a terrible, brutal bastard, was really as much a legitimate soverign as George W. Bush, and probably his intellectual superior.

Oh, and what about the rapes, murders, and wholesale pillage of the innocent Iraqis who have now been dragged into a vicious civil war? Am I really supposed to go around supporting a gang of murderous, oil-thieving "soldiers" who have already killed FAR more INNOCENT Iraqis than Saddam managed to harm in twenty-odd years of absolutist rule?

So what we've got here is a bunch of kids who either:

1) took a foolish risk to seek adventure, and paid the price, just like the guy who gets his chest caved in by a rodeo bull, or;

2) were so misinformed and misled that they thought they were fighting for "justice" and "freedom", and paid the price for that stupidity and gullibility, or;

3) people who thought it would be neat to tote a machine gun and "avenge" the USA for 9/11 by capping a few and , and paid the price for that stupidity, or;

4) people who thought that it would be a good way to pay for a college education, and paid a much higher price than college could ever have cost. For the record, I was hip enough to know that student loans and grants are easily obtained, and I survive to type this message equipped with a master's degree and my brain still in my head instead of splattered on some Baghdad highway alongside the wreckage of a poorly-armored troop transport. If these kids thought risking their lives to sack a country was the best ticket to a college education, I say to their grieving families: Pell Grants. Stafford Loans. Work studies.

My sympathy, therefore, hereafter goes to the innocents of the world who are being victimized daily by various tyrants, genocidal maniacs, and religious fundamentalists. No longer will I feel compelled to recite the liberal talking point about "opposing the war, but supporting the toops". My support has better and more legitimate causes on which to be expended.

My compassion goes out to all the families of anyone injured or killed in Iraq or any of our other farcical military campaigns-- but it's really more PITY-- pity that those people were placed in a state of grief that could have been avoided by teaching thier children to have a better grasp of the reality of global politics and the inherent brutality of war. These soldiers are for the most part innocent pawns in the Bush Plan to turn the Middle East into an America-friendly golf resort/oil distribution hub, and I regret that they fell into the trap.

But I knew enough to save my family such misery, and those who didn't are not getting my "support" any more. From now on, they're just going to get my sense of regret that they weren't a little smarter.
O.K now boys and girls, we can debate till the cows come home how Bush was wrong or right.The facts are simple. If I am in the U.S.army and my C.O. tells me we are being deployed to bla bla it is not my job to ask why. But it IS my duty to follow orders. The military IS NOT an only if I want to job. It IS a Sir,YES SIR.job. And as far as not supporting our young and older people in uniform as you stated in your 1st post get it right!! This thread has been knocked off your post by 'should we or should we not be there' Your post sir, was a simple I DO NOT support our troops. LET'S NOT change the subject as you have cleaverly done. And let us not allow us to be mislead. Start another post for goodness sake. You are who you are and you sir are someone that would go to Canada.
quote:
Originally posted by themax:
O.K now boys and girls, we can debate till the cows come home how Bush was wrong or right.The facts are simple. If I am in the U.S.army and my C.O. tells me we are being deployed to bla bla it is not my job to ask why. But it IS my duty to follow orders. The military IS NOT an only if I want to job. It IS a Sir,YES SIR.job. And as far as not supporting our young and older people in uniform as you stated in your 1st post get it right!! This thread has been knocked off your post by 'should we or should we not be there' Your post sir, was a simple I DO NOT support our troops. LET'S NOT change the subject as you have cleaverly done. And let us not allow us to be mislead. Start another post for goodness sake. You are who you are and you sir are someone that would go to Canada.


There is another Topic that addresses this particular issue. Lt Watada goes to trial soon.
THERE IS A COURTS MARTIAL COMING IN REGARDS TO THE OBEDIENCE TO ORDERS TO GO TO IRAQ.
1st Lt Ehren Watada refused to obey his order to go to Iraq.
He took his first deployment, NOT TO THE MIDDLE EAST, but he refused this one. Watada is an outstanding soldier, his commission was granted as a Second Lt...after 9/11, he was fast tracked to First Lt. His entire defense is the OBLIGATION of a soldier to REFUSE illegal orders.
Not illegal.

I even asked JAG about it last week (see my earlier post). They showed me the legal regs, etc. where Congress authorized it, POTUS ordered it. Closed case.

By whose laws do you make it illegal, France??? Why, I found French and German made, as well as Warsaw Pact, CHICOM, and PDRK made war material over there.....UN? I got to see first hand why the UN didn't want us over there in the first place...I saw the the results of the former UN's Secretary General's son and his double dealings.... UN oil for food, err, oil for palace program over there...even slept in 3 of them (even though the roofs were bombed out). I saw the result of what happens when totalitarianism is allowed to run rampant: mass graves, torture chambers, etc.....

Yeah..illegal order my rear end...You guys sound like Neville Chamberlain, failed Prime Minister of the UK, in 1938.."...what I have here, gentlemen, is the treaty signed earlier today between Herr Hitler and myself, pledging that our peoples will never go to war again.... have peace in our time..." 1 year later, World War II begain in Europe, due to appeasement.
quote:
Originally posted by resa1865:
Apparently I didn't make myself clear. I am not trying to flaunt how smart I may or may not be, neither am I defending why our troops are in Iraq. I don't like that we are there either. My point is that our troops are there, not by their own choosing, and we as a country should support THE TROOPS and their families. Saying they get what they deserve (being killed) just for signing up for military service is detestable, and anyone who spews this garbage is beneath contempt.


Resa, if I misunderstood your last comment, I am sorry... what you just said is very true, and I agree with you, 100%. No one can find anyone who joined the Military to get killed, their hearts were in the right place.

I don't agree with the cause of our being in Iraq, but I do support our Troops!!!! If, as an older woman, I could do anything to make their lives better, I certainly would try!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
quote:
Originally posted by resa1865:
This is in response to the post by Patriotwithoutabrain. You are so far beneath contempt, that words to tell you how I feel about the things you have said here fail me. And, before you start in about anyone who disagrees with you is less educated than you, let me tell you I also have a college degree. In nursing. I suppose if I am injured by a patient or contract a contagious disease it is my own fault for going into the profession that will put me at risk. And, according to your way of thinking, policemen, who also risk their lives daily to protect the likes of you, deserve to be killed by a criminal, because they should have known better than to go into such a dangerous profession. According to what you have said, any profession or occupation that places a person in danger or at any risk, is less than honorable, and those people deserve whatever harm may befall them.
The impression I have of you are that you are a spineless coward, undeserving of having your freedoms, safety and priveleges protected, even though any soldier, my son included, will protect your right to spew such trash, WITH THEIR VERY LIVES!!!!
And, to all of you who have posted replies to this maniacs point of view agreeing with any part of what he has said, you should be ashamed of yourselves. It's people (and I use the term loosely) like him that need to have their own little passivist country so they can sit back and read their books to their little incompassionate hearts content.
To all the military people who have read this forum, the only thing he got right was in response to one post where he thanked you for your service, but that you had risked your life for nothing. He's the nothing!!
This whole post has made me so angry. My son is a soldier in the US Army National Guard. The next time we have a natural disaster, you should know who will be helping you. It will be the very people you have blasted with your unbelievable garbage.
And, don't bother responding by pointing out that I am not as intelligent as you by differing with you. If you are the mark for intelligence, I would prefer to be the dumbest creature on the face of the earth!


I am NOT ashamed of anything I say, anything I feel, or anything I KNOW. It is those of you who refuse to SEE or HEAR what is happening in our Nation who should be ashamed.

Read the replies, because you obviously have NOT, or otherwise, don't try to flaunt how 'smart' you are and pretend the rest of us are dumb.

Read Ed's reply... we have a man in the oval office who stole the first election, and barely even beat KERRY!... KERRY, lol... he almost beat Bush, and that even makes me laugh.

Over 2/3 of the Nation agree with most of the comments of these people who bared their soul... but you, sadly, remain in the 1/3 who refuse to admit there are things wrong, BAD wrong with these last 6 years.

About a billion dollars a day is going overseas, and we dont even pretend to take care of our very own children right here at home. Does anyone see we have HUNGRY people right here in the US? Kids that don't even have winter coats, kids that barely even survive, and I won't even go into medical.... but LETS SEND THAT BILLION DOLLARS A DAY OVERSEAS!!!! Lets Not even THINK about stopping that, or even curtailing it...

That is NOT our country, and that is NOT our people...

I support the Troops (mauiboy especially via emails) but not the causes that we are there, it is none of our business how a country makes their laws.

Some of the laws made in the last 6 months here in the US were illegally made, so we cannot even make OUR laws right, and now we expect to nose in on someone else's HOUSE and make THEIR laws...

That is a country and culture we cannot nor will not EVER change, they are who they are, and always will be.

And if your son is here helping with Natural Disasters, then I applaud him, he is HERE, helping OUR people... how rewarding. Our troops are over there, doing their jobs too, but we do NOT know if they like it or not... the news is just too biased to know the "rest of the story" ...


Apparently I didn't make myself clear. I am not trying to flaunt how smart I may or may not be, neither am I defending why our troops are in Iraq. I don't like that we are there either. My point is that our troops are there, not by their own choosing, and we as a country should support THE TROOPS and their families. Saying they get what they deserve (being killed) just for signing up for military service is detestable, and anyone who spews this garbage is beneath contempt.
quote:
Originally posted by resa1865:
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
quote:
Originally posted by resa1865:
This is in response to the post by Patriotwithoutabrain. You are so far beneath contempt, that words to tell you how I feel about the things you have said here fail me. And, before you start in about anyone who disagrees with you is less educated than you, let me tell you I also have a college degree. In nursing. I suppose if I am injured by a patient or contract a contagious disease it is my own fault for going into the profession that will put me at risk. And, according to your way of thinking, policemen, who also risk their lives daily to protect the likes of you, deserve to be killed by a criminal, because they should have known better than to go into such a dangerous profession. According to what you have said, any profession or occupation that places a person in danger or at any risk, is less than honorable, and those people deserve whatever harm may befall them.
The impression I have of you are that you are a spineless coward, undeserving of having your freedoms, safety and priveleges protected, even though any soldier, my son included, will protect your right to spew such trash, WITH THEIR VERY LIVES!!!!
And, to all of you who have posted replies to this maniacs point of view agreeing with any part of what he has said, you should be ashamed of yourselves. It's people (and I use the term loosely) like him that need to have their own little passivist country so they can sit back and read their books to their little incompassionate hearts content.
To all the military people who have read this forum, the only thing he got right was in response to one post where he thanked you for your service, but that you had risked your life for nothing. He's the nothing!!
This whole post has made me so angry. My son is a soldier in the US Army National Guard. The next time we have a natural disaster, you should know who will be helping you. It will be the very people you have blasted with your unbelievable garbage.
And, don't bother responding by pointing out that I am not as intelligent as you by differing with you. If you are the mark for intelligence, I would prefer to be the dumbest creature on the face of the earth!


I am NOT ashamed of anything I say, anything I feel, or anything I KNOW. It is those of you who refuse to SEE or HEAR what is happening in our Nation who should be ashamed.

Read the replies, because you obviously have NOT, or otherwise, don't try to flaunt how 'smart' you are and pretend the rest of us are dumb.

Read Ed's reply... we have a man in the oval office who stole the first election, and barely even beat KERRY!... KERRY, lol... he almost beat Bush, and that even makes me laugh.

Over 2/3 of the Nation agree with most of the comments of these people who bared their soul... but you, sadly, remain in the 1/3 who refuse to admit there are things wrong, BAD wrong with these last 6 years.

About a billion dollars a day is going overseas, and we dont even pretend to take care of our very own children right here at home. Does anyone see we have HUNGRY people right here in the US? Kids that don't even have winter coats, kids that barely even survive, and I won't even go into medical.... but LETS SEND THAT BILLION DOLLARS A DAY OVERSEAS!!!! Lets Not even THINK about stopping that, or even curtailing it...

That is NOT our country, and that is NOT our people...

I support the Troops (mauiboy especially via emails) but not the causes that we are there, it is none of our business how a country makes their laws.

Some of the laws made in the last 6 months here in the US were illegally made, so we cannot even make OUR laws right, and now we expect to nose in on someone else's HOUSE and make THEIR laws...

That is a country and culture we cannot nor will not EVER change, they are who they are, and always will be.

And if your son is here helping with Natural Disasters, then I applaud him, he is HERE, helping OUR people... how rewarding. Our troops are over there, doing their jobs too, but we do NOT know if they like it or not... the news is just too biased to know the "rest of the story" ...


Apparently I didn't make myself clear. I am not trying to flaunt how smart I may or may not be, neither am I defending why our troops are in Iraq. I don't like that we are there either. My point is that our troops are there, not by their own choosing, and we as a country should support THE TROOPS and their families. Saying they get what they deserve (being killed) just for signing up for military service is detestable, and anyone who spews this garbage is beneath contempt.


I remember what I said, but I guess I was just retaliating to what you said and the way you said it, but what I did say was valid, due to that comment...

My last sentence should have told you (and others) should have told you that I DO support our Troops AND your son... and I do agree with what you said in your last comment...
quote:
Originally posted by Brentenman:
Not illegal.

I even asked JAG about it last week (see my earlier post). They showed me the legal regs, etc. where Congress authorized it, POTUS ordered it. Closed case.

By whose laws do you make it illegal, France??? Why, I found French and German made, as well as Warsaw Pact, CHICOM, and PDRK made war material over there.....UN? I got to see first hand why the UN didn't want us over there in the first place...I saw the the results of the former UN's Secretary General's son and his double dealings.... UN oil for food, err, oil for palace program over there...even slept in 3 of them (even though the roofs were bombed out). I saw the result of what happens when totalitarianism is allowed to run rampant: mass graves, torture chambers, etc.....

Yeah..illegal order my rear end...You guys sound like Neville Chamberlain, failed Prime Minister of the UK, in 1938.."...what I have here, gentlemen, is the treaty signed earlier today between Herr Hitler and myself, pledging that our peoples will never go to war again.... have peace in our time..." 1 year later, World War II begain in Europe, due to appeasement.


Brent, I am not going to argue with your first-hand knowledge, because I know you have been there, and I haven't.

Only thing I would say here is that TOTALITARINISM is a scary word right now, especially due to dubbya's resistance to do things the way he is supposed to and refuses to do it right. A President is NOT supposed to MAKE law, that is what we have all the other people for... When a President refuses to abide by a judges order, and goes ahead with HIS plan, it is dangerous to all of us.
POSTER BOY FOR TROOP SUPPORT??

As some of you have no doubt noticed, I've been steering clear of this thread for a few days, and, honestly, been doing some soul-searching of my own about my feelings on the matter.

I DO still believe that many of those who joined the military in full knowledge of the shabby premise for the occupation of Iraq made a decision with which I do not agree, and did so at great risk to their lives. I DO want EACH AND EVERY American in the Middle Eastern Theater of Operations to return home safe and in one piece.

Mauiboy (be safe, partner...we need you and your friends back here, alive) and others have made some excellent points, and given my intensely high level of compassion for ALL of humanity, I will say that I support their safe return home while continuing to disagree with their motives for joining and with the operation they are being directed to conduct. I think it's vile and disgusting, and I would be furious if I were in the military and realized I was being used as a jackbooted thug under the guise of "freedom" and "justice" and "peace". I still DON'T think the personal freedoms of ANY American have been enhanced in any way by the operation, and conversely MANY American lives have been wrecked-- not just the soldiers (thanks for the capitalization rules, Rednevednav, you saved me from having to look those up to straighten out what's-his-name-- and by the way, Red, the Stained Mecca guys are about six years or so older than me, and the few times I got to see them play are memories I shan't soon forget) but those of the families and friends left behind to ponder the terrible fate of their loved one for decades to come.

I mainly came back to clear up any doubt as to the rape-and-murder some of our brave young men saw fit to carry out-- if it makes you uncomfortable or uneasy or mad to read about it, then you should examine your underlying delusions about the reality of war.

Oh, and (hopefully) finally, I would like to say that the post by "Tomkat", which some of you applauded (Nashbama in particular) could not have missed the point of the post to which is purportedly responded by a wider margin. I NEVER implied that we don't need well-rounded children with athletic ability and physical health. Never.

I can't drive down the road without having my eyes violated by "Chase #9" and "Brianna Co-Head Cheerleader" stickers on the windows of SUVs.

I can't think of any parent of young children (the Mrs. and I are waiting until we've settled into career-level jobs to start our own family) who isn't constantly running around like a madman (or madwoman) taking their kids from soccer to softball to karate to baseball practice. I think that physical activity comes naturally to kids, but that mental development requires excellent parenting and the encouragement of reading.

I didn't want to even respond to "Tomkat"'s suggestion that I was encouraging parents to encourage their children to sit around eating eggs on toast and watching Murder She Wrote. I think they should eat a balanced diet and excercise daily, be involved in extracurricular activities and sports, and STILL enrich thier minds by being well-informed about current events and by experiencing the great literary works of human history, which hold lessons that are still highly applicable to the world in which we live today. "Nashbama" obviously felt better about being athletic-but-semi-literate after reading "Tomkat"'s post, as did some of the rest of you, but this is not a black-and-white matter with two choices: Egghead With No Common Sense vs. Athletic Dumba%$.

I manage to participate, along with Mrs. Brain, in a number of outdoor activities and even a couple of physically-demanding competitive ones, but you know what? Before we go to sleep at night (and after having thoroughly satisfied each other's carnal desires), we turn Jay Leno's unfunny show off and read (separate) books for a while before going to sleep. On my nightstand right now is a copy of Stephen Ambrose's magnificent book about the European campaign of the summer and fall of 1944.

Anyway, for anyone who doesn't know it by now:


Charlotte, N.C. (AP) -- Federal prosecutors accused a U.S. soldier Monday of raping and murdering a young Iraqi woman and gunning down her family, all of whose bodies were found burned in an apparent cover-up.

Steven D. Green, a 21-year-old former Army private first class, who was recently discharged because of a "personality disorder," appeared Monday in a federal magistrate's courtroom in Charlotte.

The murder and rape charges against him grew out of a military investigation involving as many as five soldiers in the alleged rape and killing of a young woman in Mahmoudiya. Three of the woman's relatives were also killed in the incident -- one of them a girl believed to be about 5.

Prosecutors said that Green and others entered the home of a family of Iraqi civilians, where Green shot the three relatives, then he and another soldier raped the woman and killed her. According to an accompanying affidavit, photos taken by Army investigators in March showed a burned body of "what appears to be a woman with blankets thrown over her upper torso."

FBI agents arrested Green on Friday in Marion, N.C. He is being held in Charlotte without bond pending a transfer to Louisville, Ky.

The case is being handled by federal prosecutors there because Green, who served 11 months with the 101st Airborne Division, based at Fort Campbell, Ky., is no longer in the military. According to an affidavit filed with the criminal complaint, he was given an honorable discharge "before this incident came to light. Green was discharged due to a personality disorder."

He faces a possible death sentence if convicted of murder.

In Baghdad, a U.S. military spokesman, Maj. Joseph Breasseale, said "at this time" no other charges have been filed in the Mahmoudiya case.

The mayor of Mahmoudiya, Mouayad Fadhil, said Monday that Iraqi authorities had started their own investigation. He said U.S. Army officers were also seeking permission to exhume one of the bodies; the U.S. military declined to comment on the report because the investigation is ongoing.

The age of the rape victim was also unclear. U.S. officials close to the case have described her as a young woman, and FBI documents estimated her age at 25, but a neighbor of the family said the rape victim was 14 and her sister was 10.

The affidavit filed in Green's case by FBI special agent Gregor J. Ahlers of Louisville said Green and three other soldiers from the 101st's 502nd Infantry Regiment were working a traffic checkpoint in Mahmoudiya on March 12 when they conspired to rape a woman who lived nearby.

According to the affidavit's account, the soldiers changed their clothes before going to the woman's residence to avoid detection. Once there, the affidavit said, Green took three members of the family -- an adult male and female, and a girl estimated to be 5 years old -- into a bedroom, after which shots were heard from inside.

"Green came to the bedroom door and told everyone, 'I just killed them. All are dead,'" the affidavit said.

The affidavit is based on interviews conducted by the FBI and investigators at Fort Campbell with three unidentified soldiers assigned to Green's platoon. One of the soldiers said he witnessed another soldier and Green rape the woman.

"After the rape, (the soldier) witnessed Green shoot the woman in the head two to three times," the affidavit said.

Ahlers said in the affidavit that he also reviewed photos taken by Army investigators in Iraq of bodies found inside a burned house, including photos of an Iraqi man, woman and young girl who all appear to have died of gunshot wounds. He said he also reviewed a photo of a burned body of "what appears to be a woman with blankets thrown over her upper torso."

An official familiar with details of the investigation in Iraq has told The Associated Press that a flammable liquid was used to burn the rape victim's body in a cover-up attempt. U.S. officials have said they believed the victims were killed in sectarian violence.

On Friday, the U.S. military acknowledged that Maj. Gen. James D. Thurman, commander of the 4th Infantry Division, had ordered a criminal investigation into the alleged slaying of a family in Mahmoudiya.

Four members of the 502nd have had their weapons taken away and were confined to a U.S. base near Mahmoudiya, officials said.

The suspects belong to the same unit as two soldiers kidnapped and killed south of Baghdad last month, a military official said on condition of anonymity because the case was under way.

The military has said that one and possibly both of the slain soldiers were tortured and beheaded. The official said the mutilation of the slain soldiers stirred feelings of guilt and led at least one member of the platoon to reveal the rape-slaying on June 22.

According to the affidavit filed Monday, investigators learned of the March 12 attack during a combat stress debriefing that occurred around June 20.

Green will have a preliminary hearing and a detention hearing on July 10 in Charlotte, and will then be brought to Louisville, said Marisa Ford, chief of the criminal division for the U.S. Attorney's Office in Louisville.
Last edited by PatriotWITHaBrain
Hello, I just spend a lot of time reading through this post and all the responses. Origionally I'm from Germany and I'm very glad the US came and helped in WWII. My grandfather fought in the war and was killed by Hitler because he didn't believe in what the man did. So the only way I know my grandpa is as a name on a wall on the churches property in my small hometown and I have one picture that my grandmother had that didnt' get destroyed. So yes, a lot of children in Germany back then and still today are glad that the US came to help. I support the troops that are in this war that is going on now 100 percent plus. And if someone doesn't like that, so be it. My prayers go out to each and every one of the men and women that defend this country and also their family and friends.
God bless them all. I support the troops. And "Thank You" to all soldiers from the past, present and future.
I finally have a definition from the federal government regarding Victory in Iraq.
The definition was presented by the assistant to the Secretary of State, a career State Department Employee.

Condensed it is this: Victory in Iraq will be a democratically elected government in control of the security of Iraq, and Friendly to the interests of the United States.

The definition is a denial of reality. I cannot imagine an Iraq with a democratically elected government that SUPPORTS AMERICAN INTERESTS. Not after what the USA has done to Iraq and its people, and appears to be willing to continue doing until the people of Iraq surrender.
It will be the same as the election of a majority Hamas Government in Palestine. THAT GOVERNMENT WILL NEVER SUPPORT US OR ISRAELI INTERESTS. But, it was democratically elected. THE SAME THING HAS HAPPENED IN IRAQ. The present government, democratically elected cannot retain the support of the Iraqi people and support the USA at the same time.
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
I finally have a definition from the federal government regarding Victory in Iraq.
The definition was presented by the assistant to the Secretary of State, a career State Department Employee.

Condensed it is this: Victory in Iraq will be a democratically elected government in control of the security of Iraq, and Friendly to the interests of the United States.

The definition is a denial of reality. I cannot imagine an Iraq with a democratically elected government that SUPPORTS AMERICAN INTERESTS. Not after what the USA has done to Iraq and its people, and appears to be willing to continue doing until the people of Iraq surrender.
It will be the same as the election of a majority Hamas Government in Palestine. THAT GOVERNMENT WILL NEVER SUPPORT US OR ISRAELI INTERESTS. But, it was democratically elected. THE SAME THING HAS HAPPENED IN IRAQ. The present government, democratically elected cannot retain the support of the Iraqi people and support the USA at the same time.


I talked to a couple in a convenience store yesterday who is from India... their opinion is that no matter how long the US stays in Iraq, as soon as they leave, Iraq will go back to the way Iraq always has been. They said that it was their culture to war and fight, and basically what a lot of us here say ... We just are not the WORLD's POLICE and cannot change cultures.
so very,very true kindred.
I have friends that are from Lebanon,they have openly discussed their thoughts on this war from day one,all negative. We have no right to even attempt to change an entire culture.I would like to see some proof of where and when the people of Iraq made a plea to the US to give them liberation. Was Washington contacted? Was there a movement going on trying to achieve their own liberation? I would like to know just HOW Bush determined it was our "duty and obligation" to liberate.
I agree in part. The Sec. of State's views are unrealistic. War is ingrained in their lives, has been since the begining of recorded history. One Nation enslaving another, only to be enslaved themselves by a stronger people/tribe. Yes, I have grown tired of being the police of the world. But I don't run the train, nor do I have the access to the intel our leaders do. So really, all I can add is to support our troops and pray for each and everyone of these brave men and women. I can also pray that in years to come we will be more concerned at protecting our own borders instead of others. Let's get busy on that 20ft. wall.
quote:
Originally posted by themax:
I agree in part. The Sec. of State's views are unrealistic. War is ingrained in their lives, has been since the begining of recorded history. One Nation enslaving another, only to be enslaved themselves by a stronger people/tribe. Yes, I have grown tired of being the police of the world. But I don't run the train, nor do I have the access to the intel our leaders do. So really, all I can add is to support our troops and pray for each and everyone of these brave men and women. I can also pray that in years to come we will be more concerned at protecting our own borders instead of others. Let's get busy on that 20ft. wall.


VERY well said, I agree!!
quote:
Originally posted by smurph:
I am still nauseated from King Georges speech last night.


Me too smurph... whatta hypocrite!!! Heck, not even smart enough to put his emotions in it... his eyes were just blank holes, no emotion, no feeling... maybe that will show those who LOVE HIM that he is nothing, and that he is just a power-hungry person who is biting at the bit that his wings are getting clipped. And then pathetically appealing to Joe Leiberman!!! LOL

He spewed BS around the world, and now to get 2 other countries, and 20,000 more of our troops involved...PATHETIC!!! And besides, what about the ones over there now who are due to come home, there should be around that many who HAVE served their time and it is time to BRING THEM HOME!!!! Forget changing a culture... forget trying to make their government operate like ours... They are going to do what they want to do and they are only putting up a front for whoever they have to.

MALIKI, don't call UNITED STATES 911 anymore, take care of your own country.
he only used the word WAR one time,in his opening sentences. he described our future babysitting service for Iraq.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/10/bush.transcript/index.html

I heard NOTHING that points to the "making the world a more secure place to live" (one of his favorite lines). So i went to read it and make sure i had heard everything correctly. We are in fact providing baby sitting services now for Iraq. It can be colored up with whatever anyone chooses to color it with,its what the man said!
smurph, the above comment was 'my' recap of what I heard him say. And you are totally correct, babysitting, yeah... at what price, and why do we have to PAY that price? None of the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ were ever mentioned... He cares not about that money... he cares not that Americans here could have used that for anything... ANYTHING!!! We threw it away, virtually, and there are children here who deserved it... but like I said, he showed absolutely NO emotions whatsoever, none, zero, ziltch... heck, we all show emotion when one of our own is involved in a casualty... but Bush..NO emotion at all...

SICKENING!!! HYPOCRITICAL!!!!
okay we have all those many sects of the Muslim faith. now look at our country, it is predominately of Christian faith,,but how many different branches of the christian faith do we have? MANY.We are not going to stop the violence among those people in 5, 10, or even 15 years, that is something which has been going on for more years than the US has even existed!
quote:
Originally posted by smurph:
okay we have all those many sects of the Muslim faith. now look at our country, it is predominately of Christian faith,,but how many different branches of the christian faith do we have? MANY.We are not going to stop the violence among those people in 5, 10, or even 15 years, that is something which has been going on for more years than the US has even existed!


Very well said smurph... VERY well said. I think there are people today that are disenchanted with our leader that yesterday supported him. I have heard 4 different comments from dubbya-lovers who are swinging the other way. He really did himself a disservice last night... and I am GLAD his and his "crew's" TRUE colors are coming to light. Too many Americans have been under his spell for too long now, some even down to bankruptcy.

Does that matter to him? Nope, the ONLY thing that matters to him is that the EMPIRE he was building is crumbling faster than Dear Old Daddy's did.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
I know enough to know that many-- hell, MOST of you-- will violently disagree with this, and given the prevailing national state of ignorance of the facts of global politics, it is only natural for you to do so. As a REAL American, I strongly support and respect your right to disagree.

Now, on to my point:

At a holiday gathering this weekend, I was with friends watching a hilarious montage of sports bloopers-- you know the ones: skateboard accidents, bobsledding nightmares, rodeos where the bull manages to inflict some kind of hilarious injury to the nether parts of the contestant...

As we laughed, I admitted to my friends that I always secretly root for the bull in these events-- it's an innocent animal being exploited for the amusement of a crowd of inbred idiots who SHOULD be at home teaching their kids to read-- so I feel that the bull is eminently more deserving of my sympathies than the redneck who wasn't smart enough to find a more enlightening hobby than risking his own life in the noble pursuit of tormenting more-or-less defenseless animals.

Ditto the kid who decides that it's a nifty idea to ride his skateboard down a fifty-foot handrail, only to perform a spectacular face-plant on the concrete below-- I can't bring myself to feel sorry for a guy who put himself in that position. Read a book, for %$&@'s sake! Enrich yourself a little! Watch the news and be informed! Take up chess, or golf, or join a softball league! Why knowingly engage in an activity for which human beings were not engineered by whatever Creator in whom you choose to believe? I support your right to DO it, but I'm not going to feel terribly sorry for you.

This got me started thinking about the 3,000-plus American kids-- and let's admit it, they're KIDS-- who have now been killed while occupying a foriegn country whose main offense against the United States seems to be an assassination attempt on Bush the Elder, which is of course a dubious claim for which I've never seen a scintilla of evidence.

I was shocked and appalled at the trend over the last few years of people PROTESTING at the funerals of dead American soldiers. It went against every tenet of my personal system of ethics. But you know what? The more I think about it (and that's been a LOT lately), while I still find the protests at funerals to be uncivilized and indecent, I think I now understand it.

Why?

Because I not only don't support the Occupation of Iraq-- I don't support the troops, either.

Most of you will stop reading at this point to rattle off vicious replies that showcase your lack of information, but for those of you who are intrigued enough to continue reading, here's my justification for NOT signing on with the typical anti-war statement that I "oppose the war, but support the troops".

These kids weren't drafted. Vietnam taught us that any future attempt at a draft would be disastrous and lead to another 1960's-style countercultural revolution, and the fat bastards in Washington far prefer our current sedated, ignorant state of patriotic bliss.

Thus, these kids went and SIGNED UP to go occupy (illegally, as far as I can tell) a foriegn nation, knowing full well that they were placing themselves in great bodily harm and potentially wrecking their loving families who might have to stand over their freshly-dug graves crying the way their child "sacrificed" his life for his country.

I call "BS" on this one. Iraq wasn't going to hurt us in a million years-- they wouldn't have been capable of hurting ANYONE without all the poison gas and other assorted death toys that Don Rumsfeld and other American dip***** passed out like lollipops back in the 70's and 80's.

If these soldiers weren't well-informed enough to take think better of taking a highly dangerous job that pays so little that they would qualify for food stamps, than I think perhaps that every time one of them dies from "insurgent" sniper fire or an IED, that's Darwin at work. Weeding out those who aren't savvy, hip, or educated enough to understand the news (maybe they were watching Fox News, but that's only further proves my point-- Fox News has been indisputably proven to be a woefully pathetic source of "news" and is really just a propaganda tool of the Republicans).

It's sad that these dead occupiers leave behind young widows and fatherless children, but in truth, perhaps those children will have a chance at a better life if their moms marry a guy who has the good sense to know the difference between "national duty" and "participating in a calculated effort to destabilize the Middle East, steal a bunch of oil, and avenge the humiliation of Bush the Elder by removing Saddam". Such a stepfather would likely do a far better job at raising the child of a dead American soldier than said soldier would have done had he survived the occupation.

It's nobody's obligation to "serve" America by participating in this war. Iraq was NOT involved in 9/11, but 9/11 WAS the driving emotional force behind MANY of the enlistments. Occupying Iraq is NOT a "service to America" or a "fight for justice"-- it's jackbooted thuggery in which we are stealing natural resources from a nation with a soverign who, while a terrible, brutal bastard, was really as much a legitimate soverign as George W. Bush, and probably his intellectual superior.

Oh, and what about the rapes, murders, and wholesale pillage of the innocent Iraqis who have now been dragged into a vicious civil war? Am I really supposed to go around supporting a gang of murderous, oil-thieving "soldiers" who have already killed FAR more INNOCENT Iraqis than Saddam managed to harm in twenty-odd years of absolutist rule?

So what we've got here is a bunch of kids who either:

1) took a foolish risk to seek adventure, and paid the price, just like the guy who gets his chest caved in by a rodeo bull, or;

2) were so misinformed and misled that they thought they were fighting for "justice" and "freedom", and paid the price for that stupidity and gullibility, or;

3) people who thought it would be neat to tote a machine gun and "avenge" the USA for 9/11 by capping a few and , and paid the price for that stupidity, or;

4) people who thought that it would be a good way to pay for a college education, and paid a much higher price than college could ever have cost. For the record, I was hip enough to know that student loans and grants are easily obtained, and I survive to type this message equipped with a master's degree and my brain still in my head instead of splattered on some Baghdad highway alongside the wreckage of a poorly-armored troop transport. If these kids thought risking their lives to sack a country was the best ticket to a college education, I say to their grieving families: Pell Grants. Stafford Loans. Work studies.

My sympathy, therefore, hereafter goes to the innocents of the world who are being victimized daily by various tyrants, genocidal maniacs, and religious fundamentalists. No longer will I feel compelled to recite the liberal talking point about "opposing the war, but supporting the toops". My support has better and more legitimate causes on which to be expended.

My compassion goes out to all the families of anyone injured or killed in Iraq or any of our other farcical military campaigns-- but it's really more PITY-- pity that those people were placed in a state of grief that could have been avoided by teaching thier children to have a better grasp of the reality of global politics and the inherent brutality of war. These soldiers are for the most part innocent pawns in the Bush Plan to turn the Middle East into an America-friendly golf resort/oil distribution hub, and I regret that they fell into the trap.

But I knew enough to save my family such misery, and those who didn't are not getting my "support" any more. From now on, they're just going to get my sense of regret that they weren't a little smarter.



I agree with some things you say. To me though, a kid on a skateboard, akin to the television show that aired on MTV: Jack***, is like comparing apples and oranges to American Soldiers. As an American, soldiers in the past, present and future are my heros and who I am forever greatful to because I have the freedoms that I have today. Whether they are helping with the evacuation of a hurricane or fighting in a war, they are brave men and women who give their time away from their families so tha I can be with mine. I owe all my freedoms to them, as well as all of my support. I personally know and have met some soliders in various branches of the military, (as we all do, either by relation or friendships) and their reasoning for entering the military vary from education or either their father/grandfather served and they were inspired by them. Not a single on that I have known or met joined for any reason you listed, aside from the college education that you mention. One friend in the Army looked into the grants and loans but decided...BRAVELY decided that through the army she could go much farther in her education all the while serving her country.

When I first registered to vote at 18, I registered democrat because my parents were. My dad worked in a union. I now mostly vote republican, except I always vote for Bud Cramer. Why I am talking about politics here is because I remember after 9/11, there wasn't democrat/republican/independant. We were all Americans. We held firemen in highest reguard during that time because of the sacrifice they made on that day to help others in need. They knoew what they were doing when they signed up to become a fireman, and it wasn't because of the categories you have listed here. It's because they are/were brave. The people who sign up for an at risk job are what make the world go round in my opinion. So, it's not them that I don't support, it's the leaders. I voted for Bush for both of his terms, honestly because I don't believe in gay rights and I am pro-life. But now I've decided that the women who chose to abort or those who live a gay lifestyle are their individual right and they will have to deal with that, not the elected official I chose. I'm not against this war in Iraq now, I'm just against how it's going right now. I don't understand that just because WMD's weren't found, that makes people feel it wasn't justified. Just because they weren't found doesn't mean they was not there. Didn't Saddam used mustard gase and other chemical war-fare on his own people..in Iraq? And where you say that Irag would never have hurt us in "a million years" -- I don't know what crystal ball you are gazing into, but since you can forsee that, why don't you tell me what you forsee for these foolish kids who sign up to serve or country..look in there and see if they are still foolishly signing up in "a million years" to protect your grand chilren's, grand children's, grand children's...etc.

The only thing I find that I do have in common with you is that I can sit here on my butt, in the freedoms of my very own home and spout of my, probably unwanted...just like yours, opinion about our country. The difference in us is that I know who I am indebted to for my freedoms.

And finally, you should change your screen name to suit your opinions. Last I checked, Patriot meant the following in the dictionary:

pa·tri·ot /ˈpeɪtriət, -ˌɒt or, especially Brit., ˈpætriət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pey-tree-uht, -ot or, especially Brit., pa-tree-uht] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.
2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.
3. (initial capital letter) Military. a U.S. Army antiaircraft missile with a range of 37 mi. (60 km) and a 200-lb. (90 kg) warhead, launched from a tracked vehicle with radar and computer guidance and fire control.



I really am glad that we have a true Patriot to guide the "Patriot" in definition #3. To any past, present and future troop who might read this: To this mother of three, I applaud you. My little girl is a cancer survivor and during her treatment I quickly learned that kids in other countries didn't survive three months because their families didn't have the freedoms to get to the clinics. They couldn't be out after dark and since it took long for a blood transfusion or long for certain chemotherapies, they would be out past curfew. I had the freedoms to take my daughter for her care and she's a very happy, healthy little girl now in part because of you. Thanks from the bottom of my heart!!!!
I, too am VERY thankful for our Troops, I am thankful for our Military that protects all of us.

But I am not for Iraq, and I think that there are just too many of us who lived through the Vietnam Era to "like" what has been going on.

We want our Beloved Troops home, safe and sound and not having to fight a Civil War in another country. That has nothing to do with OUR freedoms of taking ourselves, our children, our grandchildren for medical health. It has nothing to do with our day to day life here. I think every Soldier in Iraq needs to be at home ... in the loving arms of their families.
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
I, too am VERY thankful for our Troops, I am thankful for our Military that protects all of us.

But I am not for Iraq, and I think that there are just too many of us who lived through the Vietnam Era to "like" what has been going on.

We want our Beloved Troops home, safe and sound and not having to fight a Civil War in another country. That has nothing to do with OUR freedoms of taking ourselves, our children, our grandchildren for medical health. It has nothing to do with our day to day life here. I think every Soldier in Iraq needs to be at home ... in the loving arms of their families.


To me, whether or not it's a member of the military in sitting in an office in Georgia, a retired veteran in the hospital in Birmingham or a soldier walking the street in Iraq at this very moment, it's all has something to do with OUR freedoms, our everyday freedoms. I don't "like" any war. AT ALL. Just like my fouth grader who is studing cause and effect this week in school, there's always going to be some undesireable effects. But, as for me, I think the cause for this war out-weighs the effect when it comes to our liberties and freedom at home. I don't think they can come home for various reasons, more than likely some that the American public are not privy to, like Iran and Syria that do and would effect our day to day life here. I do wish and pray that they could be with their families.
I couldn't agree more Just Saying.
KS - NO this war is not about our FREEDOM - it's about our PROTECTION of FREEDOM against other attacks!!! Until all of you understand that then you'll never get it! Until al-Qaida is eliminated from where ever they are we are still under threat of another 9/11. It's a no brainer folks, I would rather American soil not get attacked again. Nobody in there right mind want's to send our Soldiers and Marines into harm's way, but they ARE PROTECTING US! How anyone can disagree with the Miltary protecting our NATION baffles me to no end. Yeah this whole thing was miss handled from the start. But it is working. Have we been attacked? No. Do you not think the enemy would love to do nothing else but to attack us here on a larger scale than 9/11? Of course they would. But our brave men and women have them running for their lives. And with the brave men and women here at home in law enforcement essentially doing the same thing, there has not been another attack on American soil.
If you do not think the enemy is not testing us, you are sadly mistaken.
quote:
Originally posted by jaime:
I couldn't agree more Just Saying.
KS - NO this war is not about our FREEDOM - it's about our PROTECTION of FREEDOM against other attacks!!! Until all of you understand that then you'll never get it! Until al-Qaida is eliminated from where ever they are we are still under threat of another 9/11. It's a no brainer folks, I would rather American soil not get attacked again. Nobody in there right mind want's to send our Soldiers and Marines into harm's way, but they ARE PROTECTING US! How anyone can disagree with the Miltary protecting our NATION baffles me to no end. Yeah this whole thing was miss handled from the start. But it is working. Have we been attacked? No. Do you not think the enemy would love to do nothing else but to attack us here on a larger scale than 9/11? Of course they would. But our brave men and women have them running for their lives. And with the brave men and women here at home in law enforcement essentially doing the same thing, there has not been another attack on American soil.
If you do not think the enemy is not testing us, you are sadly mistaken.


I "USED" to believe that also... but the al qaida wasn't dominating Iraq, there domination is Palistine and Afganastan... I USED to think that this was to protect us and our freedoms for the future also... but how is invading a country FOR WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION justified when NONE were found.

WHO, WHEN did anyone say that we were in Iraq looking for Bin Laden or al qaida???? That was an "AFTERTHOUGHT" for justification for war mongers.

I USED to believe that fighting to stop terrorism on our soil was the right thing to do, UNTIL we stopped fighting to stop terrorism on our soil and started looking for WMD in a completely DIFFERENT country.

Yes, Our brave men and women deserve all the credit that anyone can possibly give, I have always said that, but even some of them don't believe that we should be in Iraq, and believe me, I have talked to a lot who have been there.

We got rid of Saddam, started their election process, and helped them LEARN democracy... now it is time to GIVE THEM BACK THEIR COUNTRY... it does NOT belong to us.

I may stand alone on what I have said here on THIS forum, but not on the many other forum's I have been on. And not with so many people I have talked to.

Only about 1/3 of the people thought this Cival War was okay for us to help with... now even that number is dwindling.

Any and all of my comments are directed at the CAUSE of being in Iraq, and NOT at anytime have I ever said I don't support the Troops... I DO!!!

I support them with all my heart and prayers... and if I knew what else to support them with, I would do that too.

But I am sorry, this war in Iraq is for Iraq, and not for us, not to get al qaida and it is basically NONE of our business anymore, if it ever was.

NOW, and I MEAN RIGHT NOW, if al qaida is moving in over there, it is because we were there first... they were NOT there when we started. And if they are moving in over there, then THEIR culture can handle the difference in cultures themselves... Our brave men and women need to be back over here in our CIVILIZED Nation, back into the loving arms of their families.

The worst, absolutely worst thing that can happen now is that this go on too long, and these brave men and women get treated the way Vietnam Vets were treated, by OUR people.

We have to get out while the getting is good...
I too am for protection of our freedom. But please remember WHAT was the excuse given to the American citizen,,you know those of us back here working,paying taxes making ALL of any wars efforts possible . We were told there were WMDs, searched,searched again,and again,,no WMDs. THEN and only then were we told we were REALLY in Iraq, to liberate the people from the tyranny of Saddams rulership, overthrow his power. We accomplished this the man is dead.NOW we are being told by Bush himself he made mistakes,yea 3,000 of them . But NOW we must PROTECT Iraq,,babysit the country in other words. Reasonings for this war (mission as it is referred to by our president NOW) has done nothing but a flip-flop in efforts to CONVINCE taxpayers we are right.
I have no problem with war to DEFEND. We are fighting a war against an entire area of the worlds' cultures.WHO are we to dictate what cultures are acceptible and what are not? No one,not a one of our self-appointed experts here on this board on the war in Iraq have answered the questions I have presented,WHEN did people Iraq ASK for our help? Did they make direct contact with Washington,or any of our leaders in their plea? WHERE DID THE US GET THE INFORMATION THAT WE NEEDED TO LIBERATE IRAQ? Maybe it was a "self appointed" .
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:




Only about 1/3 of the people thought this Cival War was okay for us to help with... now even that number is dwindling




To me, I don't understand these polls. Where does this "one third" that the media keeps cramming down our throats everytime we turn on the news get this from? I consider myself part of "of the people" and I wasn't asked to participate in a poll. And I can name a whole heck of a lot of family and friends who didn't participate. So what is the "1/3" you keep speaking of pertain to? Is there some club? Is your voice in this poll or just because the poll swings in you opinion you agree with it and mention it to get your point across? Who all here participated in this poll?? I'd like to know. Did every single American participate or is it just an assumption? Seems to me if it was the true opinion then all of America would have participated.

How can this war not be our business, "if it ever was"? Didn't all of our leaders except one elected lady vote to go to war with Iraq? Since making presumptions about the american opinion with is so easy with "polls", isn't it just as easy to say that Saddam did use chemical war-fare on his own people, in his own country, hence at one time there were a certain type of war head that could hurt us or our allies? Since he happened to get his "hands" on it before, couldn't he very well do it again. As if you suppose "NOW, and I MEAN RIGHT NOW" Al-qaida is moving in over there because we were there first, couldn't you suppose they would have moved onto our soil the same way just like 9/11 if this war would have never started.

What if this civil war wasn't going on and Iraq was forming it's elected government like Afghanistan, what would your opinion on it be? Would you think it was worth it?
KS,
Tell me how Mohammad Atta meeting with Iraqi Gov Reps in Germany before the attacks doesn't tie Saddam's Iraq with al Qaeda? If you think it doesn't you are badly mistaken.
Not to mention the documentation that exists that proves radical Islamic terrorist training in where?... IRAQ

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp

WARNING: you will not here this from "your" media.

Yes al Qaeda was in Iraq. It's documented.

NEWS FLASH: the people we are fighting are Pro Saddam. HIS REGIME trained them. Did you actually think that they would just say "ok he's dead now, we will stop killing you"!

And for you to even think that my generation, and anyone else for that matter, would treat ANY person returning from any war like the Vietnam Vets were treated is REALLY insulting!!

Smurph for goodness sake get off the WMD's thing. That's old news. We all know the intel was wrong. The reason we are there is because of radical Islamic terrorists. IE: al Qaeda

Hummm... No one from a poll has ever called me either Just Saying... or anyone else I know... but that is probably just you and me... that possibly couldn't happen accross the country could it???
Jamie,

There is NO doubt that the meeting you mentioned took place. What is in doubt is the OUTCOME of the meeting. I am sure that some time in your life you have asked for something and been told no. Perhaps when you were praying for roller blades. The ONLY Terrorist training camp in Iraq that was operated by people who we can remotely call enemies, was operated OUT OF THE REACH of Hussain's Military...IT was in the Kurd territory, under an umbrella of US air protection, and was created AFTER the invasion of Afghanisan, and was the FIRST target of the Kurd militias as the US invaded Iraq.
Hussain's government was as much at risk from the Jihad as ours. It was non sectarian, it was a BA'ATHIST partisan government.
Keep in mind ONE OVER RIDING FACT. The United States Attacked Iraq. Iraq did not attack the United States. Iran has not attacked the United States. Afghanistan did not attack the United States. FANATIC RADICAL WAHABI MUSLIMS FROM SAUDI ARABIA, EXILED FROM THAT COUNTRY TOOK REFUGE IN AFGHANISTAN, AND ATTACKED THE UNITED STATES. The Enemy is FANATIC RELIGION.
quote:
Originally posted by just saying:
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
I know enough to know that many-- hell, MOST of you-- will violently disagree with this, and given the prevailing national state of ignorance of the facts of global politics, it is only natural for you to do so. As a REAL American, I strongly support and respect your right to disagree.

Now, on to my point:<snip>
Why?

Because I not only don't support the Occupation of Iraq-- I don't support the troops, either.

<SNIP>



I agree with some things you say. To me though, a kid on a skateboard, akin to the television show that aired on MTV: Jack***, is like comparing apples and oranges to American Soldiers. As an American, soldiers in the past, present and future are my heros and who I am forever greatful to because I have the freedoms that I have today. Whether they are helping with the evacuation of a hurricane or fighting in a war, they are brave men and women who give their time away from their families so tha I can be with mine. I owe all my freedoms to them, as well as all of my support. I personally know and have met some soliders in various branches of the military, (as we all do, either by relation or friendships) and their reasoning for entering the military vary from education or either their father/grandfather served and they were inspired by them. Not a single on that I have known or met joined for any reason you listed, aside from the college education that you mention. One friend in the Army looked into the grants and loans but decided...BRAVELY decided that through the army she could go much farther in her education all the while serving her country.

When I first registered to vote at 18, I registered democrat because my parents were. My dad worked in a union. I now mostly vote republican, except I always vote for Bud Cramer. Why I am talking about politics here is because I remember after 9/11, there wasn't democrat/republican/independant. We were all Americans. We held firemen in highest reguard during that time because of the sacrifice they made on that day to help others in need. They knoew what they were doing when they signed up to become a fireman, and it wasn't because of the categories you have listed here. It's because they are/were brave. The people who sign up for an at risk job are what make the world go round in my opinion. So, it's not them that I don't support, it's the leaders. I voted for Bush for both of his terms, honestly because I don't believe in gay rights and I am pro-life. But now I've decided that the women who chose to abort or those who live a gay lifestyle are their individual right and they will have to deal with that, not the elected official I chose. I'm not against this war in Iraq now, I'm just against how it's going right now. I don't understand that just because WMD's weren't found, that makes people feel it wasn't justified. Just because they weren't found doesn't mean they was not there. Didn't Saddam used mustard gase and other chemical war-fare on his own people..in Iraq? And where you say that Irag would never have hurt us in "a million years" -- I don't know what crystal ball you are gazing into, but since you can forsee that, why don't you tell me what you forsee for these foolish kids who sign up to serve or country..look in there and see if they are still foolishly signing up in "a million years" to protect your grand chilren's, grand children's, grand children's...etc.

The only thing I find that I do have in common with you is that I can sit here on my butt, in the freedoms of my very own home and spout of my, probably unwanted...just like yours, opinion about our country. The difference in us is that I know who I am indebted to for my freedoms.

And finally, you should change your screen name to suit your opinions. Last I checked, Patriot meant the following in the dictionary:

pa·tri·ot /ˈpeɪtriət, -ˌɒt or, especially Brit., ˈpætriət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pey-tree-uht, -ot or, especially Brit., pa-tree-uht] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.
2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.
3. (initial capital letter) Military. a U.S. Army antiaircraft missile with a range of 37 mi. (60 km) and a 200-lb. (90 kg) warhead, launched from a tracked vehicle with radar and computer guidance and fire control.



I really am glad that we have a true Patriot to guide the "Patriot" in definition #3. To any past, present and future troop who might read this: To this mother of three, I applaud you. My little girl is a cancer survivor and during her treatment I quickly learned that kids in other countries didn't survive three months because their families didn't have the freedoms to get to the clinics. They couldn't be out after dark and since it took long for a blood transfusion or long for certain chemotherapies, they would be out past curfew. I had the freedoms to take my daughter for her care and she's a very happy, healthy little girl now in part because of you. Thanks from the bottom of my heart!!!!
Patriot with a brain, I agree with you. And, just saying, metaphore is not expected to match perfectly, It exemplifies a principal, not a series of actual comparisons.
Next, the definition of patriot: great cut and paste, Now, try this definition:
Main Entry: chau·vin·ism
Pronunciation: 'shO-v&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French chauvinisme, from Nicolas Chauvin, character noted for his excessive patriotism and devotion to Napoleon in Théodore and Hippolyte Cogniard's play La Cocarde tricolore (1831)
1 : excessive or blind patriotism -- compare JINGOISM
2 : undue partiality or attachment to a group or place to which one belongs or has belonged
3 : an attitude of superiority toward members of the opposite sex; also : behavior expressive of such an attitude
- chau·vin·ist /-v&-nist/ noun or adjective
- chau·vin·is·tic /"shO-v&-'nis-tik/ adjective
- chau·vin·is·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

I will contend that your brand of Patriotism is EXEMPLARY OF (1) and (2) and you are not a Patriot, but a Chauvanist.
I intended to ask if you had ever asked for anything and been told "NO." Change roller blade to a date with Madonna. Is that less insulting? The meeting you mentioned TOOK PLACE. The Iraq Government SAID NO. The Terrorist Camp existed, it did not exist until AFTER the invasion of Afghanistan, escaped Al Qaeda...escaped from Tora Bora...established that training camp. It was established in the NORTHERN NO FLY ZONE. It was attacked and destroyed AFTER THE INVASION OF IRAQ BEGAN. It was attacked and destroyed by Kurd Militia forces. IT HAD NOT BEEN ATTACKED IN THE TIME IT EXISTED, BECAUSE THE USA DID NOT ATTACK IT.

The First Casualty of war is the Truth.
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by just saying:
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
I know enough to know that many-- hell, MOST of you-- will violently disagree with this, and given the prevailing national state of ignorance of the facts of global politics, it is only natural for you to do so. As a REAL American, I strongly support and respect your right to disagree.

Now, on to my point:<snip>
Why?

Because I not only don't support the Occupation of Iraq-- I don't support the troops, either.

<SNIP>



I agree with some things you say. To me though, a kid on a skateboard, akin to the television show that aired on MTV: Jack***, is like comparing apples and oranges to American Soldiers. As an American, soldiers in the past, present and future are my heros and who I am forever greatful to because I have the freedoms that I have today. Whether they are helping with the evacuation of a hurricane or fighting in a war, they are brave men and women who give their time away from their families so tha I can be with mine. I owe all my freedoms to them, as well as all of my support. I personally know and have met some soliders in various branches of the military, (as we all do, either by relation or friendships) and their reasoning for entering the military vary from education or either their father/grandfather served and they were inspired by them. Not a single on that I have known or met joined for any reason you listed, aside from the college education that you mention. One friend in the Army looked into the grants and loans but decided...BRAVELY decided that through the army she could go much farther in her education all the while serving her country.

When I first registered to vote at 18, I registered democrat because my parents were. My dad worked in a union. I now mostly vote republican, except I always vote for Bud Cramer. Why I am talking about politics here is because I remember after 9/11, there wasn't democrat/republican/independant. We were all Americans. We held firemen in highest reguard during that time because of the sacrifice they made on that day to help others in need. They knoew what they were doing when they signed up to become a fireman, and it wasn't because of the categories you have listed here. It's because they are/were brave. The people who sign up for an at risk job are what make the world go round in my opinion. So, it's not them that I don't support, it's the leaders. I voted for Bush for both of his terms, honestly because I don't believe in gay rights and I am pro-life. But now I've decided that the women who chose to abort or those who live a gay lifestyle are their individual right and they will have to deal with that, not the elected official I chose. I'm not against this war in Iraq now, I'm just against how it's going right now. I don't understand that just because WMD's weren't found, that makes people feel it wasn't justified. Just because they weren't found doesn't mean they was not there. Didn't Saddam used mustard gase and other chemical war-fare on his own people..in Iraq? And where you say that Irag would never have hurt us in "a million years" -- I don't know what crystal ball you are gazing into, but since you can forsee that, why don't you tell me what you forsee for these foolish kids who sign up to serve or country..look in there and see if they are still foolishly signing up in "a million years" to protect your grand chilren's, grand children's, grand children's...etc.

The only thing I find that I do have in common with you is that I can sit here on my butt, in the freedoms of my very own home and spout of my, probably unwanted...just like yours, opinion about our country. The difference in us is that I know who I am indebted to for my freedoms.

And finally, you should change your screen name to suit your opinions. Last I checked, Patriot meant the following in the dictionary:

pa·tri·ot /ˈpeɪtriət, -ˌɒt or, especially Brit., ˈpætriət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pey-tree-uht, -ot or, especially Brit., pa-tree-uht] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.
2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.
3. (initial capital letter) Military. a U.S. Army antiaircraft missile with a range of 37 mi. (60 km) and a 200-lb. (90 kg) warhead, launched from a tracked vehicle with radar and computer guidance and fire control.



I really am glad that we have a true Patriot to guide the "Patriot" in definition #3. To any past, present and future troop who might read this: To this mother of three, I applaud you. My little girl is a cancer survivor and during her treatment I quickly learned that kids in other countries didn't survive three months because their families didn't have the freedoms to get to the clinics. They couldn't be out after dark and since it took long for a blood transfusion or long for certain chemotherapies, they would be out past curfew. I had the freedoms to take my daughter for her care and she's a very happy, healthy little girl now in part because of you. Thanks from the bottom of my heart!!!!
Patriot with a brain, I agree with you. And, just saying, metaphore is not expected to match perfectly, It exemplifies a principal, not a series of actual comparisons.
Next, the definition of patriot: great cut and paste, Now, try this definition:
Main Entry: chau·vin·ism
Pronunciation: 'shO-v&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French chauvinisme, from Nicolas Chauvin, character noted for his excessive patriotism and devotion to Napoleon in Théodore and Hippolyte Cogniard's play La Cocarde tricolore (1831)
1 : excessive or blind patriotism -- compare JINGOISM
2 : undue partiality or attachment to a group or place to which one belongs or has belonged
3 : an attitude of superiority toward members of the opposite sex; also : behavior expressive of such an attitude
- chau·vin·ist /-v&-nist/ noun or adjective
- chau·vin·is·tic /"shO-v&-'nis-tik/ adjective
- chau·vin·is·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

I will contend that your brand of Patriotism is EXEMPLARY OF (1) and (2) and you are not a Patriot, but a Chauvanist.



Wow. Thanks for the calling me a name. Classy. Cut and Paste is also a nice feature on the computer, I find, so that you don’t have to type out everything. Thanks for the compliment on that.

I don’t get why you can call me a chauvinist when I was merely stating my opinion just like you state yours in your post. I see nothing in my post insinuating me otherwise; you’ll have to be more precise on your accusations. I guess since you can assume that I am a chauvinist, I can assume that you don’t agree with me so you turn to juvenile ways. Especially, in terms of metaphorically speaking, EDIQUITE (EdEKit) stands to mean civility, courtesy, decency, and decorum… You are not showing it. You know, don’t throw stones when living in a glass house.

Pertaining to the original post of this thread, I see where your loyalties lie. You know mine. I guess that’s all we can say to each other about that.
No Ed that's actually more insulting...
Ed you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. No I don't have proof of what was said just as you don't know Iraq said no. There IS DOCUMENTATION that training camps existed from 1999 on. That's a bit before. Where is your documentation? I gave you mine. Stop following liberal talking points and give me proof that no training camp existed before Afghanistan. YOU CAN'T because it is already documented that there WAS!
Here's the link again incase you missed it.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!
JAMIE,

If you are so sensitive that a rhetorical question insults you, I am at risk of JUST PLAING KICKING SAND IN YOUR FACE WITH THIS COMMENT.

The Weekly Standard is the VOICE OF THE PROJECT FOR THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY, THE MANAGING EDITOR IS WILLIAM KRISTOL. THE PUBLISHER IS RUPERT MURDOC. Believing what they publish without confirmation from at least two other sources is JUST PLAIN STUPID.
quote:
Originally posted by jaime:
No Ed that's actually more insulting...
Ed you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. No I don't have proof of what was said just as you don't know Iraq said no. There IS DOCUMENTATION that training camps existed from 1999 on. That's a bit before. Where is your documentation? I gave you mine. Stop following liberal talking points and give me proof that no training camp existed before Afghanistan. YOU CAN'T because it is already documented that there WAS!
Here's the link again incase you missed it.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp



WAKE UP AMERICA!!!



First we go to Iraq to get their WMD, THEN after none was found, it was for their liberation and democracy... and NOW all of a sudden it is because of al qaida and Iran... WHICH IS IT????

And Jaime, You may be 35, but you didnt LIVE Vietnam, and this sure smells just like it... I LIVED it.

Another thing... Terrorist camps are EVERYWHERE, Where do you think their training took place to fly into our trade centers??? In Florida... so that is lame, at best... ANOTHER BUSH EXCUSE.
[Smurph for goodness sake get off the WMD's thing. That's old news. We all know the intel was wrong. The reason we are there is because of radical Islamic terrorists. IE: al Qaeda]

HE** NO i will not get off the WMD thing,, Bush and his cronnies may have the likes of you brainwashed and that is your business. We entered into a war based on LIES and the lies continue!
Wrong intel ,,get a grip, if the US officials are going to contiue using that BS,every country in this world had better have a fear,a very real fear of the US.
quote:
Originally posted by smurph:
[Smurph for goodness sake get off the WMD's thing. That's old news. We all know the intel was wrong. The reason we are there is because of radical Islamic terrorists. IE: al Qaeda]

HE** NO i will not get off the WMD thing,, Bush and his cronnies may have the likes of you brainwashed and that is your business. We entered into a war based on LIES and the lies continue!
Wrong intel ,,get a grip, if the US officials are going to contiue using that BS,every country in this world had better have a fear,a very real fear of the US.


YAY Smurph.... You got all that RIGHT!!!! GREAT answer!!!!! Thanks!
Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, speaking on the Senate floor yesterday:


"Madam Secretary, when you set in motion the kind of policy that the president is talking about here, it's very, very dangerous," said Hagel, a decorated Vietnam War combat veteran. "As a matter of fact, I have to say, Madam Secretary, that I think this speech given last night by this president represents the most dangerous foreign policy blunder in this country since Vietnam -- if it's carried out."
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, speaking on the Senate floor yesterday:


"Madam Secretary, when you set in motion the kind of policy that the president is talking about here, it's very, very dangerous," said Hagel, a decorated Vietnam War combat veteran. "As a matter of fact, I have to say, Madam Secretary, that I think this speech given last night by this president represents the most dangerous foreign policy blunder in this country since Vietnam -- if it's carried out."


Thank you, for saving me from saying this. And allowing this statement: THE PRESIDENT'S ADMINISTRATION HAS FAILED. BUSH is now OFFICIALLY A LAME DUCK.

My faith in Ameica's politicians has just gotten CPR, the patient is still critical, but the gravity of the situation is lessening.
Ed, I know exactly who the Weekly Standard is. OH want to know something?... Rupert Murdock is liberal. Don't be so naive to think I get my facts from just one outlet. Indeed that would be stupid. And Lame Duck is any president in their second term.

KS, no I didn't live through Vietnam, but that doesn't mean I don't know what happened. Yeah, the same thing is happening now that happened then. Politicians and the Politically Correct are trying to run a war. That has never worked. But don't imply I don't know what happened in Vietnam. I lost family in that war and I have lost a good friend in this one. So don't tell me I don't know.

Smurph, I'm not even gonna reply to the brainwashed response. You guys think that some of us are brainwashed? You should and step back and really look at some of what you are saying.

If you really think terrorism is gonna leave us alone if we just pack up and leave, you better get your head out of the sand. If we don't take our enemy out there, they will be at our doorstep in the short future AGAIN. If you are so caught up in your little world not to realize that, then may God help you. Because if we stop fighting terrorism now, He's the only that will be able to protect us then.
quote:
If you really think terrorism is gonna leave us alone if we just pack up and leave, you better get your head out of the sand. If we don't take our enemy out there, they will be at our doorstep in the short future AGAIN. If you are so caught up in your little world not to realize that, then may God help you. Because if we stop fighting terrorism now, He's the only that will be able to protect us then.


Go read the transcripts of last nights speech.

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×