quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
quote:
Originally posted by REDNEVEDNAV:
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
...but I'll admit to you that all it takes is one look at the French...general level of sophisitication in terms of political thought...

Socialism is your idea of sophisticated political thought? Good luck on your move back to France, I wish you and yours all the best...

quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
I must tell you that I think your insinuation that one must be from France in order to disagree with the Occupation of Iraq is a poster boy for American ignorance.

Google: "French military victories"|click "I'm Feeling Lucky" and put the results on the 'poster' next to my name.

Again....YOU ARE WELCOME, Shoals Lover.


.


OMG, surly even this TRASH is not part of SL's eccentric behavior??? God, I can be such an idiot sometimes, I fell right in. Guess I didn't google that right, because nothing showed up for me.


Kindred_Spirit......when you go to google.com and type in French Military Victories and then click the I'm Feeling Lucky button....you get a page asking you, "Did you mean French Military Defeats?" I was just being a smarta** by saying to then put it next to my name on the poster....since I was named the "poster boy for American ignorance" by Shoals Lover
quote:
Originally posted by taint:
K.S. I know better that assume but You know it has been a while since S.L. made a post. And It has been a very long time ago that RED. told us how he came up with his nic.


I cannot remember how Red got the name, may have been before my time, if Red wants me to know he can PM me. And yes, you are right, I think even "I" Have more comments than he does now... this IS weird. I think I shall stay away from newbies for a while because I fall right into the traps... never said I was the brightest star, LOL!!!
quote:
Originally posted by taint:
K.S. I know better that assume but You know it has been a while since S.L. made a post. And It has been a very long time ago that RED. told us how he came up with his nic.


more than that, Shoals Lover was the only one that PM'd me about it and that also actually spelled it out in one his posts. Anyway, can anyone tell that I didn't have a lot to do today?
quote:
Originally posted by REDNEVEDNAV:
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
quote:
Originally posted by REDNEVEDNAV:
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
...but I'll admit to you that all it takes is one look at the French...general level of sophisitication in terms of political thought...

Socialism is your idea of sophisticated political thought? Good luck on your move back to France, I wish you and yours all the best...

quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
I must tell you that I think your insinuation that one must be from France in order to disagree with the Occupation of Iraq is a poster boy for American ignorance.

Google: "French military victories"|click "I'm Feeling Lucky" and put the results on the 'poster' next to my name.

Again....YOU ARE WELCOME, Shoals Lover.


.


OMG, surly even this TRASH is not part of SL's eccentric behavior??? God, I can be such an idiot sometimes, I fell right in. Guess I didn't google that right, because nothing showed up for me.


Kindred_Spirit......when you go to google.com and type in French Military Victories and then click the I'm Feeling Lucky button....you get a page asking you, "Did you mean French Military Defeats?" I was just being a smarta** by saying to then put it next to my name on the poster....since I was named the "poster boy for American ignorance" by Shoals Lover


Yes, I did come up with DEFEATS, and then didnt know what to do from there, LOL. Told ya I wasn't computer savvy. I have been a member here a long time, and I just HATE to have fallen trap to this PatriotwithOUTaBrain,.... but at least I got some 'say-so' in there, lol...

Thanks guys!!!
While I am steering clear of this thread for the time being...this did catch my eye...

quote:
TROLLING comes to mind right now.


It appears anyone that KS doesn't agree with is a troll...that rates right up there with brentmans 'koolaid drinker'. Quite the hypocrite I think!
I don't believe KS disagrees with this being a TROLL thread....I think he figured it out by now though.

I usually would not get into such myself...just bored and unable to resist the French comment.
quote:
just bored and unable to resist the French comment.



I have a French army rifle for sale...

never used, only dropped once. Big Grin
wow...it's amazing to watch the substance of this discussion disintegrate into accusations that I'm some other guy. I'm NOT Shoals Lover or anyone else who has previously posted in this forum, and, having thought about it for a couple of hours now, I realize that there's just no way to establish this without identifying myself, which I don't care to do any more than the rest of you...if anyone else can think of a way for me to verify that I'm not Shoals Lover (I'm really not sure why I care who you think I am, other than that it distracts from what I was trying to say), let me know in a private message-- I'll do it. I really hate to think that YOU folks think that there could only be One Single Sarcastic Liberal in an area of this size-- guess that really speaks for the area's lack of diversity, huh?

As for my shrewd inference that Rednevedanv's name derives from his surname, it's because-- NEWS FLASH, FOLKS-- it's obviously "Vandevender" spelled backwards. I have a sharp eye for word/number/letter combinations, and wondered what the point of an unpronounceable nic is-- just like I do when I see an incomprehensible personalized auto tag. Furthermore, I used to know an awesome local guitarist named Charles Vandevender, and I think his dad or grandfather was the minister of the Presbyterian church downtown when I was in high school...so, woohoo for me, I somehow trapped myself in an identity conundrum by reversing a few letters to figure out that the guy's last name HAD to be Vandevender...

I can't believe I'm even still typing. But so as not to leave this impossible "discussion" with any murky areas, I'd like to note the following, and you can then all respond about how I'm really Shoals Lover (for the record, having spent most of my life here, I'm FAR from a "Shoals Lover" and can't wait to get to a blue state soon's a job comes through)...

Having said that, I'd like to point out that I don't wish our soldiers harm. I just don't support the decision, particularly by anyone who joined the military after 2003 or so, to do. I think the Iraqi Occupation is costly in terms of money, lives, and loss of credibility in the world, and I've just begun to find it hard to mourn people who make such...bad...decisions.

I likened it to the reckless sports some people pursue like rock climbing or bullfighting-- when some guy falls off a 100-foot rock face dies from blunt force trauma or whatever, the lives of his survivors are impacted and truthfully, it's harder on the survivors than the "victim". And in this case, in my view, the ONLY difference is that the person was pursuing the "sport" under the guise of "serving the nation", and I say: "where's the service, other than the funeral service performed over your prematurely shattered remains that would be much better off above ground, alive, and enjoying life with your family?"

I'm just saying I don't support the mission, the decision to join the military, or the government that sends those kids (and "young adults", Mr. D) off to die FOR NO GOOD CAUSE.

I know quite well that I should never have broached this subject here-- it would be controversial even in a town with a MUCH better track record for free expression of ideas than Florence, and, truthfully, I'm not trying to ram the opinion down anyone's throat. I appreciate those of you who responded kindly or disagreed in a civil manner, and I will get out of your way and let you go back to assuring yourselves that there could only be one well-spoken, witty liberal in town and he spends his time creating alter-egos to reinforce his opinions. Sheesh.

I truly, truly, wish you all the best.
without a brain...you are surely no patriot...your posts reek with entitlement...."as long as I don't have to pay the price, then so be it"....there are always some of your kind around...normally, I would say that you have intellecutally reasoned your position into neutrality and chicken****ism, but I think that would be giving you way too much credit...your apathetic and pathetic ramblings, along with your psuedo-intellectualism, have no credence with anyone who has experience and knowledge of this country's many sacrifices and devotion to duty and freedom for the oppressed...sip your wine, enjoy your beignets, none whose spirit embody courage and honor would welcome your company...
PWOAB,fool me once shame on me but keep tring has put you on my very first ignore list.Congrats.
riiiight, Eli...your definition of "chicken****" seems to be my failure to expend young lives for fraudulent "causes" and when our national security is NOT being threatened...

I hate to admit this, because it just gives some of you more ammunition to hurl "educated idiot" slurs at me, but I happen to hold a bachelor's degree in....drum roll....HISTORY!!! I've studied every war in which America has been involved and many that it hasn't, and let me let you in on a little secret, Eli:

What you and I and everyone else on this forum say right now is idle speculation. When the history books are written on this sad chapter in American History, Bush, his cronies, and his war will be exposed as the liars, thieves, and murderers that I and others, including Colin Powell and Gen. John Abazaid to name but two, already know them to be.

You won't be standing there for me to rub it in your face when it becomes accepted fact, but that's not my style anyway. Historians ALWAYS have the last word, and Bush is in for a decline in reputation roughly similar to that of Michael Jackson, except at least THAT freak didn't KILL anyone.
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like joy my blood pressure was out the roof
but I read this entire thread and i am thinking.
Is what he is saying so far from possibly being a truth,,to a point? I am being serious here now.
I know we all support our troops,but just what is it they REALLY have signed up to do? Think,,really think WAS Saddam a real threat when we invaded Iraq? OH BUT WAIT,it shifted midstream ,,,we are there to liberate the country.
Our very own country had been attacked,,,,,the first time in how many years??????????? And our president is concerning himself with liberating another country? it does not add up

But I STILL support our troops,maybe they did not use good judgement by this guys opnion,BUT thier HEARTS were in a very patriotic place,to defend our country. Maybe they have been brainwashed,,but haven't we ALL been to a certain degree?
Also, I wonder how I'll be able to sleep at night knowing I've been 'ignored' by a guy whose screen name is defined as "the area between one's nutsa%k and ***hole."
Gonna hafta hit the NyQuil pretty heavy.
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I don't think anyone agrees with this war,but this is our country and those are our brave soldiers over there doing what they were ordered to do by our president( like him or not- he is the president of our country).We elected him(maybe?).If we don't like what he is doing we vote him out.This country has a government,which we elect to run things,if we don't like the way they are running things we vote them out.We may not like things the way they are now, but we still live in the best **** country there is.PWOB you sound like you are a coward and are just looking to excuse your cowadice!



)
quote:
So what we've got here is a bunch of kids who either:

1) took a foolish risk to seek adventure, and paid the price, just like the guy who gets his chest caved in by a rodeo bull, or;

2) were so misinformed and misled that they thought they were fighting for "justice" and "freedom", and paid the price for that stupidity and gullibility, or;

3) people who thought it would be neat to tote a machine gun and "avenge" the USA for 9/11 by capping a few and , and paid the price for that stupidity, or;

4) people who thought that it would be a good way to pay for a college education, and paid a much higher price than college could ever have cost. For the record, I was hip enough to know that student loans and grants are easily obtained, and I survive to type this message equipped with a master's degree and my brain still in my head instead of splattered on some Baghdad highway alongside the wreckage of a poorly-armored troop transport. If these kids thought risking their lives to sack a country was the best ticket to a college education, I say to their grieving families: Pell Grants. Stafford Loans. Work studies.


I will grant you that those are all foolish reasons to join the military. However, those aren't the only reasons.

Tradition. There are families that have had people that have served from the the American Revolution until now.

Patriotism. They love their country, and would be more than willing to kill or die to defend it.

Debt. This one you most surely will not get. There are those that feel that pell grants, loans, welfare programs, and the rest, should all be repaid. Not everyone thinks they should take but not give back. True, there are other ways to repay those debts, serving one's country is nothing to be ashamed of.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
Also, Shiroshi, it should be noted that German propaganda, which they elevated to an art form, never openly admitted the stated goal of murdering six million people, and I'm sure the German kids in the trenches didn't know about the concentration camps-- remember that only a couple dozen Nazis were able to be tried and executed for the genocidal events, clear evidence that the "Final Solution" was not a widely known aim.


Before gaining power in Germany, Hitler did allude to the "Aryan" Race as the "Master Race". He did also blame the Jews for most of the finacial woes of Germany and most of Europe for the better part of a millenia. His main political capital was his idea of a pure, World dominating Germany, free of the chains of its (then) economic and stratigic disadvantages.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
Joy,

I thought all those nuclear warheads that Reagan and Company built, which have the destructive power to destroy the entire Earth twenty times over, as well as all those nifty precision-guided bombs, were supposed to keep us from having to deploy infantry...ohmygosh, do you mean that was all just a way to make defense contractors rich, just like Vietnam, just like Iraq?

I won't claim to be a military expert, but seems to me like the only real use for infantry in a foriegn theatre of war these days is for invading countries and waging urban warfare, which is hardly likely to be a remedy for a REAL threat to this country...

Which is precisely what's going on. Iraq is a street-fight, and to my way of thinking, we shouldn't be having to do a lot of urban warfare-- when we're fighting legitimate enemies as opposed to people we just feel the need to conquer. We're not fighting uniformed, identifiable military personnel-- just stupid/scared/superstitious/nationalistic citizens who feel like they're being invaded just like we would if the same were happening here.


Since I'm almost positive there is at least one enemy in Iraq that is smarter than you I'll ask:

If you were Iraqi, Irani, or pretty much any other country's soldier, would you really want to wear a uniform and stand up to the United States Military? Thats how you lose wars. The technological/manpower advantage is too far in our favor. Long gone are the days of two clear cut sides, wearing uniforms and carrying flags, marching into battle. The goal of war has rarely been to kill all of the other people, but to make the cost of contiueing the war too great for the opponent. Either politically, economically or tacticly. The Iraqi, Irani, and Syrian armed forces combined could not have defeated us in a "traditional" war. So now you see a different kind of war, and it is very effective. It worked for the Chinese and Russians in Vietnam and Korea. Strangely enough, we in this country cry foul at this type of war, even when we celebrate it on July 4th.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
lookn2it: if any attempt were ever made to institute a draft in this country again, there would be an explosion of grass-roots anarchy on a level previously unimaginable. I don't think anyone would stand for it, and furthermore, a draft would almost be WELCOME because it would place a lot more heat on the man sending troops into battle to be honest about his intentions and the risks involved.

Vandevender: Apart from my appreciation of your Alfred E. Neuman avatar, I must tell you that I think your insinuation that one must be from France in order to disagree with the Occupation of Iraq is a poster boy for American ignorance.
I'm from Alabama and have lived here all my life, but I'll admit to you that all it takes is one look at the French crime rate (a fraction of ours), literacy rate (MUCH higher than ours) and general level of sophisitication in terms of political thought MORE than make up for what folks like yourself seem to be unable to forgive them for: their bold refusal to support the Bush regime just because we (along with the British and many, MANY brave Resistance fighters) drove the Nazis from their land 66 years ago. I'm over it.
Pouring a glass of Merlot and toasting General Abazaid,

PwB


Is the same low crime rate politically minded France that saw riots and a near revolt in the past year? The same France that is suffering from soaring unemployment that the rioters were angry for the only available solution to? The French have backed into thier own form of socialism but failed to solve any of the real problems associated with it. Free college, health care, jobs for life. High unemployment, radicalism, and some of the highest taxes on the planet. Rampant racial strife as well. I tire of typing this list of France's woes, move along now.
quote:
Originally posted by PatriotWITHaBrain:
riiiight, Eli...your definition of "chicken****" seems to be my failure to expend young lives for fraudulent "causes" and when our national security is NOT being threatened...

I hate to admit this, because it just gives some of you more ammunition to hurl "educated idiot" slurs at me, but I happen to hold a bachelor's degree in....drum roll....HISTORY!!! I've studied every war in which America has been involved and many that it hasn't, and let me let you in on a little secret, Eli:

What you and I and everyone else on this forum say right now is idle speculation. When the history books are written on this sad chapter in American History, Bush, his cronies, and his war will be exposed as the liars, thieves, and murderers that I and others, including Colin Powell and Gen. John Abazaid to name but two, already know them to be.

You won't be standing there for me to rub it in your face when it becomes accepted fact, but that's not my style anyway. Historians ALWAYS have the last word, and Bush is in for a decline in reputation roughly similar to that of Michael Jackson, except at least THAT freak didn't KILL anyone.


Unless you are predicting a fall of the United States, the Historians will side with the official version. Historians don't write the truth, only the winning version of it. Had we lost WWII, the history of Pearl Harbor would have been: The US for the only time in its history moved its entire Pacific fleet into the same place, a move of seeming intent to attack, gathering of the strengths if you will.

Even now, speaking of nuclear weapons we fail to speak of the first victims, the US did do human testing before Japan. And what about the forced repatriation of Russians fleeing from Stalin? Or are you saying History in all of its Perfection looks down on Roosevelt for those crimes? I guess he wasn't involved in such events. Try looking up Andrey Vlasov and read a bit about the 2,700 Cossacks. They surrendered to the US.

How about Eisenhower and the three presidents after him and their little excursion to Vietnam? Eisenhower is at worst thought of as "lackluster", we won't mention Kennedy, and of course Nixon. Who would have thought that two of the most fondly remembered post-WWII presidents would be responsible for that war? So perhaps Bush ain't got as much to worry about as you would hope.
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To clarify any past, present or future misunderstandings, 22.250/taint/themax (that is correct I think - correct me if you were not originally themax), he explained the choice of the screen name 'taint' to us, something anyone who saw the vulgar definition on that very same thread would know. It was not a vulgar choice & he was shocked to know it had that meaning. It was an innocent mistake. 'Taint' is southern/redneck/short for 'it ain't'. Until Uber pointed out the other definition, I had never heard that before. Anyway, yeah, I'm sticking my neck out again, but I must be a glutton for punishment or something. Smiler

No offense to you, PWaB...I don't know you or any hidden agenda you may or may not have. In fairness, you could say the same for us as well. I hope you are simply looking for some answers and arguing this through to find the truth. However, I do feel your comments about 22.250 did not contribute to the discussion & were unnecessary & out of line. I know we get all get ticked off sometimes, but generally it's a good idea to wait a few minutes before sending if you are angry. Just a thought. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:
quote:
just bored and unable to resist the French comment.



I have a French army rifle for sale...

never used, only dropped once. Big Grin


Mott, after I got everything straightened out, IF I got it all straightened out, lol... I AM the one who did say it was a Trolling post... and if you remember, YOU are the one who told me what a trolling post was, and there is nothing hypocritical about it. It just threw me for a while.

And just where do you get "Trolling comes to mind" that says that I am hypocritical? You don't make sense because YOU were the one who brought trolling out in a post not too long ago, and stupid me had to ask you what it was.

Never again, not when it is thrown back into my face...
Getting back to subject, Patriot, I would like to state that your arrogance is overshadowing your intelligence. You are choosing to pigeonhole a whole group of people. You insist on "Civilized" thought, yet you discuss the 3,000 or more deaths in our military as though it's Darwinism at its best. Again I would ask are you willing to defect now or later when these "stupid" (your words not mine) ranks are depleted? Be glad and appreciative for their ability and willingness to sacrifice so that you may obtain your job in a place with more liberal thought so that you can continue to condescend others.
Joy,
Having, as you suggested, taken a few minutes to think before hitting 'send', I have come up with the following:

1) I initiated a thread concerning a matter of personal exploration and seeking the thoughts of others-- I knew it would be controversial, but that doesn't exactly mean it's not worth disucssing...

2) I was quickly dressed down, politely, by you for coming right in off the bat with, shall we say, a strong personality...I accepted the criticism, and said nothing that could be construed as 'vulgar' or 'offensive', in my understanding of the terms...

3) Along with Rednevednav, "T%$nt" proceeded to pile on with accusations that I was another poster obviously familiar to you all on the board masquerading in order to express an opinion that he or she was not willing to express under his or her usual screen name...

4) At that point, I saw no reason to point out that, in addition to essentially trying to distract the forum from any valid points that may have been raised by my conversation, I was being dressed down and accused of identity fraud by someone with a really, really vulgar nickname...to which I quite rightly took exception...

5) I don't know "T%$nt", but I'm in my early thirties, and I've lived in Florence all my life except for a brief spell, and I can assure you that the aforementioned slang term has been around for as long as I can remember...it's the kind of thing snickered about by schoolkids on playgrounds...

6) Despite what you, or "Ta&^t", or anyone else may say in his defense, I simply choose not to believe that he chose the nic for the reasons he gives-- it doesn't BEGIN to add up-- I think he's actually sophisitcated enough to have intended the usage of the word to be a cute double-entendre (figure of speech with two meanings, for all you Francophobes) and that he was humiliated when I called him out on it. The old adage about folks who reside in glass houses not throwing stones seems to apply here...

In closing, as I inferred in a post last night, I've completely lost enthusiasm for this forum as a place of high-minded disucssion-- maybe I expected too much, but my years of college and grad school conditioned me to the civilized--if controversial-- exchange of ideas, and never, ever, EVER did I encounter the kind of pigheaded resistance to an IDEA that I've seen from some of the people on this forum...

I should have realized that the anonymity of the "Interwebs" allows for baseless accusations of "trolling" and "identity fraud", which means that I should probably stick to publishing my ideas in legitimate publications and not in an anonymous forum such as this one. Believe it or not, I get paid to write professionally (though let me hasten to assure you that it is NOT for the TimesDaily, which I view as a miserable, lazy rag that serves as a propaganda tool for Bobby Irons and UNA), and I should never have stepped outside the bounds of writing to which I can proudly affix my own by-line.

I'm not saying I'll never be back to this forum-- I feel a certain obligation to monitor future discussions about my own previous comments-- but I will NOT be initiating any new threads nor will I be much inclined to respond to others, unless it is to defend what I've already said.

Again, your civility and grace are appreciated-- you seem like a wonderful person, and perhaps there will come a time when I will move past my "angry young man" stage and be able to excercise more restraint like yourself-- but I kinda hope I don't...

yours,
b
"PWAB"
Lookn2it:

I'm sorry if the mere suggestion of Darwinism is an outright offense and renders me automatically guilty of condescencion.

I would be very interested to know your opinion on how the 'sacrifice' of our 3,000 young people has or will IN ANY WAY directly affect my own life. I was never saying we don't need a military or that I'm opposed to any and all military action-- I oppose the CURRENT military action, along with a legion of military officers and global experts, including Gen. John Abazaid among countless others.

You keep implying I should be grateful-- but for what? For the rape, murder, torture, and destruction that has caused the formerly-balanced budget (thanks, Clinton!) to soar into a massive defecit (thanks, W!)?

Should I somehow take comfort in the fact that the world is beginning to quite rightly view the United States as a gang of bullying thugs?

Should I divest myself of my carefully-considered agnosticism and become religious so that I could earnestly thank some deity for the dedication of nineteen-year-olds missing limbs (or dead) because they were sent into urban combat woefully under-supplied with armored vehicles, body armor, etc?

I respect your opinion, but I'm still not sure exactly what it is.
I am of the opinion that we have overstepped our boundaries in Iraq. We are woefully mistaken to think there can ever be peace between the Middle Eastern Countries. I do think you are correct in that there are numerous hidden agendas and some that may never come to light. However, I find it hard to condemn and excuse their deaths and dismemberment as just some form of stupidity on their part.
People make their own choices true. But the reasons you stated for their decisions to join the military were just vastly understated. It would be great if life was just as simple as black and white, smart and dumb, etc. my point is that whether agreed on by you or not there are numerous reasons why someone chooses their path. For no other reason that right to be able to choose should be respected - not ridiculed.
I don't want to argue with you. I would just like you to see that as civility calls for- understanding rationale that you, yourself, can't fathom should still be respected as a single independent decision. Not just a sweeping generaliztion of a whole brigade or military unit. Simply stated I am just asking you to rethink your statment. It is a generic reference to a very large group of people that you know nothing about other than they made a decision based on reasons you don't know and don't understand and don't agree with. If I read your statements correctly you are basically saying "OK, they are too dumb to realize that they are Lemmings sent off to commit suicide. So, according to the laws of nature let the strongest and smartest survive. No big deal to me." I think its the apathy on your part for them to make your point about the war that both angers me and scares me at the same time.
PWaB, IMO, you are not a troll. If I understand the definition of a troll, a troll cannot be reasoned with & doesn't care what anybody else thinks. Their sole purpose is to shock, attack, cause controversy and instigate fights among forum members. Any attempts to fix them or be their friend results in another attack. Now, this is my understanding after looking it up some time back. You all can correct me if I am mistaken. You do not fit that description. Some of us, including myself, are new to this troll business.

I vehemently disagree with you regarding our troops, but I do agree with several of your points...such as our government's motives for entering Iraq being self-seeking.
I would also like to add that while I, too, may not agree with you about our troops I think it would be a shame to lose you on this forum. You made me think. I don't agree with all your points as Joy stated but I do think you make several really valid ones.
Lookn2it,

I thank you for your response...

I'm at a bit of a loss as to how one can discuss something as vast as "war", "military", "soldiers", etc., without engaging in generalization. Surely I can't be expected to examine the motives of each individual soldier?

Furthermore, most folks don't hesitate to generalize in such statements as "they are fighting hard for our country and are good people", do they?

Thus, it seems a little like there's a double standard at work here in which it's wrong to engage in generalization when criticizing, but A-OK to do so when praising, mourning, glorifying, etc.

"We Support Our Troops"= generalization that would seem to imply that we support, for example, the four brave young men who heroically held down and systematically raped-- vaginally and anally-- a 14-year-old and then murdered her and her entire family and set their house on fire. I'm sure nobody here applauds that act; in fact, I'm sure that my mention of it further enrages those I've already infuriated. But it happened.

Moreover, if you could point to ANY quote of mine in which I act like it's "no big deal", I would be grateful-- I'm mad as hell about this waste of life, and I think I care more about those kids than those of you who "support" their mission-- I wish every one of them had never been duped by recruiters/advertising/guidance counselors/testosterone/ignorance/ in the first place and sent over there. I don't want them dead. I was just saying that I'm losing the ability to "support" a decision to join in on this fraudlent military campaign-- and I probably should have clarified earlier on that I was referring more to those who joined, say, after 2003 and 2004.

Anyway, I'm sure that in real life, you and I probably see eye-to-eye more than you would imagine-- you are reasonable and obviously NOT in the world of denial that much of the country inhabits...I'm sorry if I've come across as condescending or arrogant, but it's pretty hard to express one's personality in print, and I think I tend to ratchet up the sarcasm a little because, frankly, I was trying to get a point across that I knew was going to be at odds with prevailing sentiment.

I'm kind of a 'prevailing sentiment be da*ned' sort of guy. "Everyone thinks so" has never sufficed as the basis for my own worldview, and never will-- in fact, if most people think something, it's probably bogus as hell and immediately suspect.

As I said above, I'm really just monitoring this post at this point to see it through to its conclusion-- I've had the revelation that this kind of anonymous message board is a flawed concept from the beginning, at least as regards political discourse.

I'll be glad to address any further points you have, and I thank you again for your participation in the discussion.
Well,

I have come to a simular conclusion Patriot. But with an asterisk. Bush invaded Iraq with CLINTON'S ARMY. Those men and women, People like Lori Piestewa and Jessica Lynch volunteered their service to this country in a time of relative peace, trained hard and learned the methods of war to DEFEND AND PROTECT THE UNITED STATES. They Got HIJACKED. Lori died to Save Jessica on a battlefield that did not exist before the day she died. Before that battle was fought TWO Generals, Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff resigned rather than order troops into IRAQ, and one of them had ordered troops into Afghanistan. Lori was a lowly Specialist in a Maintenance Battalion she had a contract to fulfill, and two fatherless children.
But the term of enlistment is four years. The enlisted person in the Military today either started out for a career in the Armed forces and extended his or her contract before the war, OR they volunteered to fight this war. THOSE VOLUNTEERS FOR WAR ARE PLAIN AND SIMPLE MERCENARIES. No one in his right mind supports MERCENARIES FIGHTING A WAR OF AGGRESSION.

So, count this liberal as one who SUPPORTS a strong DEFENSIVE military, AND ADAMANTLY OPPOSES MERCENARY ARMIES MARCHING TO CONQUEST. Ours or Theirs, IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. I will gladly take up arms AGAIN, to defend this country. But, like Lt Ehren Watada, I would not go to fight in Iraq for love nor money.
Thanks, EdEKit-- and right on. I'm all for having the best defensive army in the world, and I really regret not making it clear from the beginning that my comments-- and lack of support-- had more to do with recent enlistees and nothing to do with those who had reasonable cause to believe that they would only be deployed in an honest, realistic, judicious manner when they signed up.

Truthfully, it's the same principle that makes me very irritated when I hear that so-and-so percentage of American high school seniors can't find the country or their home state on a map. This, to me, seems like a logical extension of that same problem-- high school kids think the news is irrelevant to them, thus do not take up the slack left by the public education system by watching the news, reading books, etc. That was the basis of my use of the dreaded D-Word (Darwinism) that I appear to have used somewhat loosely given the gravity of the subject.

(steps up to podium, clears throat)
Hey parents! Talk to your kids now and then! Don't let them be raised by XBox or whatever the current trendy gaming system is! Encourage independent reading, FROM PRESCHOOL FORWARD! Don't raise another generation of dupes! Encourage critical thinking! Discuss the news over dinner!

(steps down, loosens tie)

Maybe I should have said all that in the first post, instead of what I DID say. But it would likely would have sunk to the bottom of the tank for lack of sparkle.

In hindsight, it might also have been equally thought-provoking if I'd asked everyone if they would advise their own child to join the military upon graduation this spring. The answers might have been more illuminating had I not used the "danger sports" metaphor...
EdEKit, you have food for thought there. But in all honesty,If one signs up for military duty, even in peace time. There is always the possibility of a conflict begining somewhere in the world, were we have a duty, maybe even a treaty in place that includes our assistence.
That is why our armed forces train for war not peace, all of that aside. Teddy said it best many years ago
" walk softly, but carry a big stick"

And before you ask,

Yes, we may not be walking as softly as we could.
Although I'm going to leave you this nasty little response it does not mean I am poorly educated on the subject. That being said,

I'm not entirely certain you would oppose such a death however. I doubt they would choose to even take you as you are the closest thing to an ally that these guys have in the US and whether you believe it or not they ARE OUR enemies. As for your rant about people expanding their mind through books.. Why don't you think about trying out some physical activities... Not everyone wants to be some egghead reject.. Comprende? You don't really want everyone who's currently skateboarding in some park somewhere (physical activity) to go home and read a book while eating egg whites on toast and waiting for "Murder She Wrote" to come on, do you? No. Because then everyone would be as dull, boring, and weak as you are. I understand that strengths are not limited to muscles and endurance, but strong mind and body do not come from reading books alone. I submit to you that you are in fact the limited mind. Not necessarily in the manner which you are referencing in your post, but limited from expanding outward from your daily routine. With no respect whatsoever, I do request that you quit humping large trees and other plant life, animals in various sizes, and small children. Take a step outside your boring little homely box and try having some fun outside. You see, learning while reading books can be helpful in many ways, but the limitation is the fact that you're reading the words of another person.. You are learning from someone else. Physical activities can be trained, but pretty much everything you do, especially in skateboarding for example, is self taught. Instead of reading or listening to some political propaganda all day long and THINKING you know what the hell you're talking about. All you REALLY know is what other people are talking about. So, I say screw your bright idea and empty ignorant rant about educating one's self through the perspectives of others. Almost EVERYONE is biased in some manner, so how can you trust what they say? Take me for example..

But just because you trust that doesn't mean you should believe me if I say "There are WMDs in Iraq" or "Thousands of teenagers have been killed because of Bush"... Both of what I just said are completely opposite sides of the spectrum and I don't believe either.. Facts are this: Soldiers who joined the US military at whatever age did so of their own free will and choosing and many have been killed in action. There were no WMDs (to our knowledge) in Iraq, but we did liberate a country under the rule of a tyrant dictator responsible for the deaths of millions. The people have since all but plunged into civil war. We should not be the world police, but we have every right to make preemptive strikes against our enemies and those who harbor and support them. There was probably some bad blood between Iraq and the US that played a part in choosing that country for attack. They wouldn't comply with inspectors after all (or atleast so we've been told- see what I'm sayin). In the long run we now have an established presence in the mid-east where we can launch future assaults on terrorist nations. Our presence there also draws fire off of the civilian population here in the US... They'll try to attack us here, but priority is to defend their bases and permanent positions. OBVIOUSLY lots of facts and other crap you hear on the news, internet, weird movies by Michael Moore(s), and in books you read can be right or wrong. Right according to some; wrong according to others. Regardless what you believe you should NEVER EVER NOT SUPPORT YOUR OWN TROOPS!! Be angry, disagree, HELL, PROTEST all you want about the war, the leadership directing it, and the circumstances prolonging it, but when you see an American Soldier at the airport coming home to his family, or drive by a funeral service for one of our fallen brothers you had better take your hat off and put your hand over your heart and THANK GOD for every waking moment he's blessed you with in this GREAT NATION. At that point I want you to remember that freedom isn't free and the reason nations like ours now strike preemptively at regimes like Saddam's is because appeasement failed in the past and will fail again. Give diplomacy all the time it needs, but when it comes time to go to it then GO TO IT. You support your troops and you support your country EVERYDAY for the rest of your life because it is YOURS. The only reason you ever hear anything on TV about politics is because they want you to vote a certain way next election and they'll twist it any way they can. All that matters in the end is that our country prevails because regardless of how you feel about anything the United States is a beacon of hope that the world may live in freedom some day. The freedoms I so enjoy here in the US may some day be enjoyed in Iraq. That to me is worth everything we've given and more. I guess I'm just a "the ends justify the means" type guy. I can only hope that it is not simply their religion which causes peace to fail. The End.

-Bear
Last edited by Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by tomcat_176:
Although I'm going to leave you this nasty little response it does not mean I am poorly educated on the subject. That being said,

I'm not entirely certain you would oppose such a death however. I doubt they would choose to even take you as you are the closest thing to an ally that these guys have in the US and whether you believe it or not they ARE OUR enemies. As for your rant about people expanding their mind through books.. Why don't you think about trying out some physical activities... Not everyone wants to be some egghead reject.. Comprende? You don't really want everyone who's currently skateboarding in some park somewhere (physical activity) to go home and read a book while eating egg whites on toast and waiting for "Murder She Wrote" to come on, do you? No. Because then everyone would be as dull, boring, and weak as you are. I understand that strengths are not limited to muscles and endurance, but strong mind and body do not come from reading books alone. I submit to you that you are in fact the limited mind. Not necessarily in the manner which you are referencing in your post, but limited from expanding outward from your daily routine. With no respect whatsoever, I do request that you quit humping large trees and other plant life, animals in various sizes, and small children. Take a step outside your boring little homely box and try having some fun outside. You see, learning while reading books can be helpful in many ways, but the limitation is the fact that you're reading the words of another person.. You are learning from someone else. Physical activities can be trained, but pretty much everything you do, especially in skateboarding for example, is self taught. Instead of reading or listening to some political propaganda all day long and THINKING you know what the hell you're talking about. All you REALLY know is what other people are talking about. So, I say screw your bright idea and empty ignorant rant about educating one's self through the perspectives of others. Almost EVERYONE is biased in some manner, so how can you trust what they say? Take me for example..

But just because you trust that doesn't mean you should believe me if I say "There are WMDs in Iraq" or "Thousands of teenagers have been killed because of Bush"... Both of what I just said are completely opposite sides of the spectrum and I don't believe either.. Facts are this: Soldiers who joined the US military at whatever age did so of their own free will and choosing and many have been killed in action. There were no WMDs (to our knowledge) in Iraq, but we did liberate a country under the rule of a tyrant dictator responsible for the deaths of millions. The people have since all but plunged into civil war. We should not be the world police, but we have every right to make preemptive strikes against our enemies and those who harbor and support them. There was probably some bad blood between Iraq and the US that played a part in choosing that country for attack. They wouldn't comply with inspectors after all (or atleast so we've been told- see what I'm sayin). In the long run we now have an established presence in the mid-east where we can launch future assaults on terrorist nations. Our presence there also draws fire off of the civilian population here in the US... They'll try to attack us here, but priority is to defend their bases and permanent positions. OBVIOUSLY lots of facts and other crap you hear on the news, internet, weird movies by Michael Moore(s), and in books you read can be right or wrong. Right according to some; wrong according to others. Regardless what you believe you should NEVER EVER NOT SUPPORT YOUR OWN TROOPS!! Be angry, disagree, HELL, PROTEST all you want about the war, the leadership directing it, and the circumstances prolonging it, but when you see an American Soldier at the airport coming home to his family, or drive by a funeral service for one of our fallen brothers you had better take your hat off and put your hand over your heart and THANK GOD for every waking moment he's blessed you with in this GREAT NATION. At that point I want you to remember that freedom isn't free and the reason nations like ours now strike preemptively at regimes like Saddam's is because appeasement failed in the past and will fail again. Give diplomacy all the time it needs, but when it comes time to go to it then GO TO IT. You support your troops and you support your country EVERYDAY for the rest of your life because it is YOURS. The only reason you ever hear anything on TV about politics is because they want you to vote a certain way next election and they'll twist it any way they can. All that matters in the end is that our country prevails because regardless of how you feel about anything the United States is a beacon of hope that the world may live in freedom some day. The freedoms I so enjoy here in the US may some day be enjoyed in Iraq. That to me is worth everything we've given and more. I guess I'm just a "the ends justify the means" type guy. I can only hope that it is not simply their religion which causes peace to fail. The End.

-Bear


Best

Post

Ever

Big Grin
Last edited by Former Member
BTW, if indeed Shoals Lover and PatriotWITHaBrain are two separate people (as seems to be the case), I stand corrected and apologize for hijacking the thread with the accusation.

To PatriotWITHaBrain: on behalf of my brother, thank you for the compliment, he is still an awesome guitar player.
Patriot wrote:
"Thus, these kids went and SIGNED UP to go occupy (illegally, as far as I can tell) a foriegn nation, knowing full well that they were placing themselves in great bodily harm and potentially wrecking their loving families who might have to stand over their freshly-dug graves crying the way their child "sacrificed" his life for his country."

==================================================

I think there was a standing Army in place long before we went into the ME. So that might cause you to rethink that statement. I'l agree that there are some "cowboys" who signed up after 911 kick some muzzy arse. You can go to youtube or google video and see some evidence of that, and I do agree that most soldiers killed in Iraq are eulogized by their families with the "he died for his country" thing are misguided. I'm sure they believe it and it helps them justify their loved one being senselessly extinguished for a noble cause.

To keep things in perspective, almost all war is fought over religion, power or resources or control of resources. This one is no different.

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