Why not take religion out of schools and government?

I don't think religion should be taught in schools because of the different way people believe. If a child were Baptist, he/she could end up being taught by a COC teacher.

If a child is from an Atheist family, they shouldn't be taught religion at all.

The ABC's should be taught at school, leave the religion teachings at home.

I know one teacher at a local school that starts the day with prayer.

Political candidates use religion to get votes, but I see no way to stop them from doing that.

Because not everybody thinks like you do Jennifer.

When politicians voice how they believe that's called freedom of speech. Just like you have the right to object about anything that pertains to Christianity or God.
I say let each candidate run however they want to and not listen to Jennifer. Why can't we do that?

quote:

Originally posted by semiannualchick:
I don't think religion should be taught in schools because of the different way people believe. If a child were Baptist, he/she could end up being taught by a COC teacher.

If a child is from an Atheist family, they shouldn't be taught religion at all.

The ABC's should be taught at school, leave the religion teachings at home.

I know one teacher at a local school that starts the day with prayer.

Political candidates use religion to get votes, but I see no way to stop them from doing that.

Yes, and people will argue that there isn't any prayer in school. I know we can't stop politicians associated with any party to stop using religion, but it would be nice to let them all stand on their merits instead of their religious bent.

I'm not saying a truly good candidate can't be religious, or can't be a non-believer, but I hate the way they attack each other's religions as a reason not to support certain candidates.

IMO when either candidate launches one of those attacks they should be disqualified.

quote:

Originally posted by I am the Fireman:
Because not everybody thinks like you do Jennifer.

That's called freedom of speech and freedom of thought. Diversity. I know how a wonderful christian like you hates free speech IF it isn't praising your mythical god.

something to consider, jen: why not simply abide by the law and allow all of it?

it is actually a myth that "prayer in school" is against the law. it most certainly is not. the law says that all religions must be given equal treatment by the state and that one religion cannot be held above another.

so a teacher or principal certainly can lawfully lead an entire class in unadulterated christian prayer the jesus h. christ. but to be legal, the teacher darn well better say a jewish one the next day, a hindu one the next, a satanic one the next and a muslim one the next and so on. in fact, with roughly 23,000 active religions in this world, they will be praying for a very long time.

and, of course, the teacher would be wise to include a humanist invocation.

do all this and i promise on my mother's grave that no atheist or ACLU of Freedom from Religion Foundation will even bat an eye . . . actually, they would bay an eye because this would be a spectacle to behold. but they would have no grounds for punitive action.

so, jen, let's NOT ban it from school. let us toss out all these ideas into the market of ideas found in public school. it would be the best thing that ever happened.

quote:

so, jen, let's NOT ban it from school. let us toss out all these ideas into the market of ideas found in public school. it would be the best thing that ever happened.

Instead of everyone fighting over it let's just get it out of schools and government and let the parents be in charge of religious training. Even if they did teach all religions, allow all prayers, there would be those that claimed some other religion was getting priority over theirs. Very silly analogy- but haven't you ever taken a toy away from kids because they were fighting over it?

I don't feel being taught religion is the best thing that ever happened. I don't think it can be "taught". It's more like indoctrination. Can't you just see a teacher that thinks along the lines of bill teaching about Mormons? Yikes!

The question I will raise is why should "religion" be taught in public schools as a regular part of any curriculum? Religion can't be tested, it has no scientific principles, can't be proven, its predominantly a matter of "faith" in things that you cannot see or observe take place. These concepts, like Jennifer stated, have no place in a curriculum unless they are taught in a way to teach tolerance for everyone else's beliefs, which 95% of the time isn't the case. All people usually do is complain that one religion or faith is better than the other, when in reality they all are pretty ridiculous.

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." - George Washington

"Religions are all alike -- founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." - John Adams

"Christianity is the most perverted system ever shone on man." - Thomas Jefferson

Our Founding Fathers were pretty intelligent people, it would be nice if people actually knew what they generally stood for.

In urban California, candidates rarely state their religious positions. In-state, who knows, it's probably different.

I almost wish more of them would. Mary Bono, for instance, is a Scientologist. Is this not a reflection on her character and judgment?

nsns

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
In urban California, candidates rarely state their religious positions. In-state, who knows, it's probably different.

I almost wish more of them would. Mary Bono, for instance, is a Scientologist. Is this not a reflection on her character and judgment?

nsns

Not to me NSNS. No more than a Baptist, COC, Catholic, ANY other religion. Condemn one for their beliefs but not another is just what I was talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:

quote:

so, jen, let's NOT ban it from school. let us toss out all these ideas into the market of ideas found in public school. it would be the best thing that ever happened.

Instead of everyone fighting over it let's just get it out of schools and government and let the parents be in charge of religious training.

that would be nice. of course there are laws that prohibit certain behaviors but the reality is that people test that law constantly. fortunately, we have organization like the ACLU who protect that law but people continue to test it.

so let's give up. let me teach whatever they want but prosecute the hell out of them if they don't teach all of them equally and fairly? it would be the best thing to happen to atheism since the enlightenment.

I think they should teach ABOUT religion in school as it comes up in history. Religion itself though, should be taught at home or in church.

But I don't see anything wrong with a moment of silence before starting the day. All of those people of differing religions can pray to the God of their choice, while those who don't believe in God at all can just take a deep breath and prepare for the day ahead.

quote:

Originally posted by I am the Fireman:
When politicians voice how they believe that's called freedom of speech. Just like you have the right to object about anything that pertains to Christianity or God.
I say let each candidate run however they want to and not listen to Jennifer. Why can't we do that?

And I say let's not listen to fireman. How about that?

quote:

But I don't see anything wrong with a moment of silence before starting the day. All of those people of differing religions can pray to the God of their choice, while those who don't believe in God at all can just take a deep breath and prepare for the day ahead.

depending on how that is conducted, even that had been shot down in courts but, yeah, i don't have a problem with that, either. when i am forced to observe a MoS, i use it to catch my breath or squeeze my wife's butt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_silence

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:
Why not take religion out of schools? ALL religion. Schools are for learning, let the religious training be kept in the home. Why not take religion out of government? Let each candidate run on their record, not whether or not they believe, not what they believe, or even if they don't believe. Why can't we do that?

Totally agree with you. Religious is a dangerous thing - look at the mess the world is in right now and religion is the root to all of it.

quote:

Originally posted by ZBA:
The question I will raise is why should "religion" be taught in public schools as a regular part of any curriculum? Religion can't be tested, it has no scientific principles, can't be proven, its predominantly a matter of "faith" in things that you cannot see or observe take place. These concepts, like Jennifer stated, have no place in a curriculum unless they are taught in a way to teach tolerance for everyone else's beliefs, which 95% of the time isn't the case. All people usually do is complain that one religion or faith is better than the other, when in reality they all are pretty ridiculous.

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." - George Washington

"Religions are all alike -- founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." - John Adams

"Christianity is the most perverted system ever shone on man." - Thomas Jefferson

Our Founding Fathers were pretty intelligent people, it would be nice if people actually knew what they generally stood for.

--------------------------------------

They stood for both God and country.

Where did your above quotes come from?


"This is a question often asked today, and it arises from the efforts of those
who seek to impeach Washington's character by portraying him as irreligious.

Interestingly, Washington's own contemporaries did not question his Christianity
but were thoroughly convinced of his devout faith--a fact made evident in the
first-ever compilation of the The Writings of George Washington".
published in the 1830s.

.

Lets not confuse God and religion. Totally different entities. They came...from...the people that said them. Google it.

quote:

Originally posted by Unobtanium:
something to consider, jen: why not simply abide by the law and allow all of it?

it is actually a myth that "prayer in school" is against the law. it most certainly is not. the law says that all religions must be given equal treatment by the state and that one religion cannot be held above another.

so a teacher or principal certainly can lawfully lead an entire class in unadulterated christian prayer the jesus h. christ. but to be legal, the teacher darn well better say a jewish one the next day, a hindu one the next, a satanic one the next and a muslim one the next and so on. in fact, with roughly 23,000 active religions in this world, they will be praying for a very long time.

and, of course, the teacher would be wise to include a humanist invocation.

do all this and i promise on my mother's grave that no atheist or ACLU of Freedom from Religion Foundation will even bat an eye . . . actually, they would bay an eye because this would be a spectacle to behold. but they would have no grounds for punitive action.

so, jen, let's NOT ban it from school. let us toss out all these ideas into the market of ideas found in public school. it would be the best thing that ever happened.

Not really. There simply is no "equal treatment" doctrine of the type you describe. If you disagree, kindly put something up that documents it.

quote:

Interestingly, Washington's own contemporaries did not question his Christianity
but were thoroughly convinced of his devout faith--a fact made evident in the
first-ever compilation of the The Writings of George Washington".
published in the 1830s.

*******************************************

"Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice."
-- Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Jefferson's Works, Vol. iv., p. 572. (Asa Green "was probably the Reverend Ashbel Green, who was chaplain to congress during Washington's administration." -- Farrell Till in "The Christian Nation Myth.")

"I know that Gouverneur Morris, who claimed to be in his secrets, and believed himself to be so, has often told me that General Washington believed no more in that system [Christianity] than he did."
-- Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, February, 1800, quoted from Jefferson's Works, Vol. iv., p. 572 ("Gouverneur Morris was the principal drafter of the Constitution of the United States; he was a member of the Continental Congress, a United States senator from New York, and minister to France. He accepted, to a considerable extent, the skeptical views of French Freethinkers." -- John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans.)


Custis: Never Witnessed Devotions

"I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them."
-- Eleanor "Nellie" Parke Custis Lewis, Martha Washington's granddaughter from a previous marriage, quoted from Sparks' Washingon, also from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, p. 22


Abercrombie: Washington a Deist

"Sir, Washington was a Deist."
-- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, rector of the church Washington had attended with his wife, to The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, upon Wilson's having inquired of Abercrombie regarding Washington's religious beliefs, quoted from John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans


Savage: Prayer Paintings Silly Caricatures

"The pictures that represent him on his knees in the winter forest at Valley Forge are even silly caricatures. Washington was at least not sentimental, and he had nothing about him of the Pharisee that displays his religion at street corners or out in the woods in the sight of observers, or where his portrait could be taken by 'our special artist'!"
-- The Reverend M J Savage, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, p. 22


Blanchard: No Mealtime Prayer

"There was a clergyman at this dinner who blessed the food and said grace after they had done eating and had brought in the wine. I was told that General Washington said grace when there was no clergyman at the table, as fathers of a family do in America. The first time that I dined with him there was no clergyman and I did not perceive that he made this prayer, yet I remember that on taking his place at the table, he made a gesture and said a word, which I took for a piece of politeness, and which was perhaps a religious action. In this case his prayer must have been short; the clergyman made use of more forms. We remained a very long time at the table. They drank 12 or 15 healths with Madeira wine. In the course of the meal beer was served and grum, rum mixed with water."
-- Commissary-General Claude Blanchard, writing in his journal, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, p. 23


Abercrombie: Never Received Communion

"With respect to the inquiry you make, I can only state the following facts: that as pastor of the Episcopal Church, observing that, on sacramental Sundays George Washington, immediately after the desk and pulpit services, went out with the greater part of the congregation -- always leaving Mrs. Washington with the other communicants -- she invariably being one -- I considered it my duty, in a sermon on public worship, to state the unhappy tendency of example, particularly of those in elevated stations, who uniformly turned their backs on the Lord's Supper. I acknowledge the remark was intended for the President; and as such he received it. A few days after, in conversation, I believe, with a Senator of the United States, he told me he had dined the day before with the President, who, in the course of conversation at the table, said that, on the previous Sunday, he had received a very just rebuke from the pulpit for always leaving the church before the administration of the sacrament; that he honored the preacher for his integrity and candor; that he had never sufficiently considered the influence of his example, and that he would not again give cause for the repetition of the reproof; and that, as he had never been a communicant, were he to become one then, it would be imputed to an ostentatious display of religious zeal, arising altogether from his elevated station. Accordingly, he never afterwards came on the morning of sacrament Sunday, though at other times he was a constant attendant in the morning."
-- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, in a letter to a friend in 1833, Sprague's Annals of the American Pulpit, vol. 5, p. 394, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 25-26


Wilson: Wouldn't Trouble Clergyman

"When Congress sat in Philadelphia, President Washington attended the Episcopal Church. The rector, Dr. Abercrombie, told me that on the days when the sacrament of the Lord's Supper was to be administered, Washington's custom was to arise just before the ceremony commenced, and walk out of the church. This became a subject of remark in the congregation, as setting a bad example. At length the Doctor undertook to speak of it, with a direct allusion to the President. Washington was heard afterwards to remark that this was the first time a clergyman had thus preached to him, and he should henceforth neither trouble the Doctor or his congregation on such occasions, and ever after that, upon communion days, 'he absented himself altogether from church.'"
-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, biographer of Bishop White, in his sermon on the "Religion of the Presidents," published in the Albany Daily Advertiser, in 1831, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 26


Wilson: Deist, and Nothing More

"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more."
-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in an interview with Mr. Robert Dale Owen written on November 13, 1831, which was publlshed in New York two weeks later, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27


Owen: Wilson Tells Even More

"I called last evening on Dr. Wilson, as I told you I should, and I have seldom derived more pleasure from a short interview with anyone. Unless my discernment of character has been grievously at fault, I met an honest man and a sincere Christian. But you shall have the particulars. A gentleman of this city accompanied me to the Doctor's residence. We were very courteously received. I found him a tall, commanding figure, with a countenance of much benevolence, and a brow indicative of deep thought, apparently 50 years of age. I opened the interview by stating that though personally a stranger to him, I had taken the liberty of calling in consequence of having perused an interesting sermon of his, which had been reported in the Daily Advertiser of this city, and regarding which, as he probably knew, a variety of opinions prevailed. In a discussion, in which I had taken part, some of the facts as there reported had been questioned; and I wished to know from him whether the reporter had fairly given his words or not. I then read to him from a copy of the Daily Advertiser the paragraph which regards Washington, beginning, 'Washington was a man,' etc., and ending 'absented himself altogether from church.' 'I endorse,' said Dr. Wilson with emphasis, 'every word of that. Nay, I do not wish to conceal from you any part of the truth, even what I have not given to the public. Dr. Abercrombie said more than I have repeated. At the close of our conversation on the subject his emphatic expression was -- for I well remember the very words "Sir, Washington was a Deist."'"
-- Mr. Robert Dale Owen, newspaper reporter, afterwards a member of Congress and later Minister to Naples, after interviewing Dr. Wilson, giving the substance of the interview in a letter written on November 13, 1831, which was published in New York two weeks later, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 26-27


White: Never Received Communion

"In regard to the subject of your inquiry, truth requires me to say that General Washington never received the communion in the churches of which I am the parochial minister. Mrs. Washington was an habitual communicant. I have been written to by many on that point, and have been obliged to answer them am as I now do you."
-- The Right Reverend William White, the first bishop of Pennsylvania, friend of Washington and bishop of Christ's Church in Philadelphia, which Washington attend for about 25 years when he happened to be in that city, in a letter to Colonel Mercer of Fredericksberg, Virginia, on August 15, 1835, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27


Wilson: Never Received Communion

"Though the General attended the churches in which Dr. White officiated, whenever he was in Philadelphia during the Revolutionary War, and afterwards while President of the United States, he was never a communicant in them."
-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, from Wilson, Memoir of Bishop White, p. 188, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27


Wilson: Never Knelt; No Religious Talk

"His behavior in church was always serious and attentive, but as your letter seems to intend an inquiry on the point of kneeling during the service, I owe it to the truth to declare that I never saw him in the said attitude.... Although I was often in the company of this great man, and had the honor of often dining at his table, I never heard anything from him which could manifest his opinions on the subject of religion.... Within a few days of his leaving the Presidential chair, our vestry waited on him with an address prepared and delivered by me. In his answer he was pleased to express himself gratified by what he had heard from our pulpit; but there was nothing that committed him relatively to religious theory."
-- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a letter to the Rev B C C Parker, dated November 28, 1832, from Wilson, Memoir of Bishop White, pp. 189-191, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27


Wilson: No Facts Prove Him a Christian

"I do not believe that any degree of recollection will bring to my mind any fact which would prove General Washington to have been a believer in the Christian revelation further than as may be hoped from his constant attendance upon Christian worship, in connection with the general reserve of his character."
-- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a letter to the Rev B C C Parker, dated December 31, 1832, from Wilson, Memoir of Bishop White, pp. 189-191, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 28


Jackson: Sorry, No One Remembers

"I find no one who ever communed with him."
-- Rev William Jackson, rector of Alexandria, Virginia, in response to a letter from Reverend Origen Bacheler, cited in The Bacheler-Owen Debate, vol. 2, p. 262, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 28

"I am sorry, after so long a delay in replying to your last, that it is not in my power to communicate something definite in reference to General Washington's church membership.... Nor can I find any old person who ever communed with him."
-- Rev William Jackson, rector of Alexandria, Virginia, in response to a second appeal from Reverend Origen Bacheler, cited in The Bacheler-Owen Debate, vol. 2, p. 262, quoted in John E Remsburg's Six Historic Americans, pp. 110-111, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 28


Custis: Left Before Communion

"On communion Sundays, he left the church with me after the blessing, and returned home, and we sent the carriage back after my grandmother."
-- George Custis, letter to Mr. Sparks on February 26, 1833, in Sparks's Washington, p. 521, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 29


Boller: Name of Christ Conspicuously Absent

"Unlike Thomas Jefferson -- and Thomas Paine, for that matter -- Washington never even got around to recording his belief that Christ was a great ethical teacher. His reticence on the subject was truly remarkable. Washington frequently alluded to Providence in his private correspondence. But the name of Christ, in any correspondence whatsoever, does not appear anywhere in his many letters to friends and associates throughout his life."
-- Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion (1963) pp. 74-75, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church." Had Washington been a pious Christian, he would have at least mentioned the name of Christ!


Flexner: Terminology of Enlightenment-Era Deism

"That he was not just striking a popular attitude as a politician is revealed by the absence of of the usual Christian terms: he did not mention Christ or even use the word 'God.' Following the phraseology of the philosophical Deism he professed, he referred to 'the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men,' to 'the benign parent of the human race.'"
-- James Thomas Flexner, describing Washington's first Inaugural Address, in George Washington and the New Nation (1783-1793) (1970) p. 184, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

"Washington's religious belief was that of the enlightenment: deism. He practically never used the word 'God,' preferring the more impersonal word 'Providence.' How little he visualized Providence in personal form is shown by the fact that he interchangeably applied to that force all three possible pronouns: he, she, and it."
-- James Thomas Flexner, in George Washington: Anguish and Farewell (1793-1799) (1972) p. 490, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"


Wilson: Early Presidents Not Religious

"The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [Washington; Adams; Jefferson; Madison; Monroe; Adams; Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity....
"Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."
-- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a sermon preached in October, 1831, first sentence quoted in John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans, second sentence quoted in Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion, pp. 14-15


Schwartz: Conduct Made Him Seem Christian

"George Washington's conduct convinced most Americans that he was a good Christian, but those possessing first-hand knowledge of his religious convictions had reasons for doubt."
-- Barry Schwartz, George Washington: The Making of an American Symbol (1987) p. 170, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"


Schwartz: Union Based on Difference, Interdependence

"No citizens ... were more sensitive to Washington's role as an upholder of liberties than the religious minorities. These groups were less anxious to cultivate what they had in common with other Americans than to sustain what kept them apart. Washington recognized this, just as he recognized the tenacity of regional and economic interests, and he took pains to explain precisely what national unity meant to him. He carried to his countrymen a vision of "organic" rather than "mechanical" solidarity, a union based on difference and interdependence rather than uniformity of belief and conduct. Washington's understanding of the kind of integration appropriate to a modern state was not shared by the most powerful Protestant establishments, the New England Congregationalists and Presbyterians; but other religious groups could not have been more pleased.... Acknowledging in each instance that respect for diversity was a fair price for commitment to the nation and its regime, Washington abolished deep-rooted fears that would have otherwise alienated a large part of the population from the nation-building process. For this large minority, he embodied not the ideal of union, nor even that of liberty, but rather the reconciliation of union and liberty."
-- Barry Schwartz, George Washington: The Making of an American Symbol (1987) pp. 85-86, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

I have no problem with keeping religious indoctrination out of the public schools. Those are matters of personal conviction and should not be forced on anyone. As for candidates they can list whatever they want about themselves and its up to you and me to sort out who is best. I think you and I are pretty much in agreement for once Jennifer.

What school is religion being taught in? The public schools I attended did not teach it. The public schools my children attended sure didn't teach it (not even close). Had moment of silence at the beginning of the day and then there was never even any illusion about religion. Is this suppose to just be another thread to stir the pot because some people don't have anything else to do or what? But I am serious, what school is religion being taught?

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:
Why not take religion out of schools? ALL religion. Schools are for learning, let the religious training be kept in the home. Why not take religion out of government? Let each candidate run on their record, not whether or not they believe, not what they believe, or even if they don't believe. Why can't we do that?

Hi Jennifer,

You are asking for the impossible. A person's faith, be it Christianity or atheism, is a part of that person's being. To tell a person who works in schools or in government to leave their beliefs and faith outside -- would be like telling a person, "You can bring your right arm to work today; but, leave your left arm at home." Not very realistic.

And, since we Christians do not complain about having Evolution taught in schools -- why should atheists complain about having Creation taught in schools? We are not afraid of the comparison. Yet, it seems this comparison "almost" scares the devil out of atheists.

Jennifer, you show you lack of faith in your own religion and you lack of certainty about your own beliefs -- when you are so paranoid about exposing people to God. He doesn't bite -- I promise.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Unobtanium:

quote:

But I don't see anything wrong with a moment of silence before starting the day. All of those people of differing religions can pray to the God of their choice, while those who don't believe in God at all can just take a deep breath and prepare for the day ahead.

depending on how that is conducted, even that had been shot down in courts but, yeah, i don't have a problem with that, either. when i am forced to observe a MoS, i use it to catch my breath or squeeze my wife's butt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_silence

I play pocket pool.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:
Why not take religion out of schools? ALL religion. Schools are for learning, let the religious training be kept in the home. Why not take religion out of government? Let each candidate run on their record, not whether or not they believe, not what they believe, or even if they don't believe. Why can't we do that?

Hi Jennifer,

You are asking for the impossible. A person's faith, be it Christianity or atheism, is a part of that person's being. To tell a person who works in schools or in government to leave their beliefs and faith outside -- would be like telling a person, "You can bring your right arm to work today; but, leave your left arm at home." Not very realistic.

And, since we Christians do not complain about having Evolution taught in schools -- why should atheists complain about having Creation taught in schools? We are not afraid of the comparison. Yet, it seems this comparison "almost" scares the devil out of atheists.

Jennifer, you show you lack of faith in your own religion and you lack of certainty about your own beliefs -- when you are so paranoid about exposing people to God. He doesn't bite -- I promise.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

I think Creation stories would be appropriate in Kindergarten right along side Mother Goose and the Brothers Grimm.

quote:

Hi Jennifer,

You are asking for the impossible. A person's faith, be it Christianity or atheism, is a part of that person's being. To tell a person who works in schools or in government to leave their beliefs and faith outside -- would be like telling a person, "You can bring your right arm to work today; but, leave your left arm at home." Not very realistic.

And, since we Christians do not complain about having Evolution taught in schools -- why should atheists complain about having Creation taught in schools? We are not afraid of the comparison. Yet, it seems this comparison "almost" scares the devil out of atheists.

Jennifer, you show you lack of faith in your own religion and you lack of certainty about your own beliefs -- when you are so paranoid about exposing people to God. He doesn't bite -- I promise.

First of all religion isn't like your arm or leg. Secondly I have no idea what you mean about lack of faith in my religion-I have no religion. As far as your god not biting, of course not, he doesn't exist- how could he bite? There is nothing about your creationism theory that scares me. It's silly not scary.
And christians complain plenty about evolution being taught.

quote:

Originally posted by Shoals Resident:
What school is religion being taught in? The public schools I attended did not teach it. The public schools my children attended sure didn't teach it (not even close). Had moment of silence at the beginning of the day and then there was never even any illusion about religion. Is this suppose to just be another thread to stir the pot because some people don't have anything else to do or what? But I am serious, what school is religion being taught?

SR,

As far as I know there is no schools that are teaching religion. Public schools that is. I think what Jennifer is talking about is the constant fight to KEEP it out. If it were left up to many of the local school boards (and parents) it would be all over the place in our school system. They already try and sneak it in with their lousy sticker on the high school biology books and the prayers led at football games and graduations. Left unchecked it would spread like wildfire.

As for government, the only way I know to stop politicians from running on a religious platform or enacting laws based on their religion is to make it a big no no. Every time a politician even brings up his faith and starts thanking god and saying this nation is a Christian nation, that candidate gets struck off my list of viable options. If more people started doing that we would see less religion mingled with our government. Most of them only say it because they know the public wants to hear it. Not because they actually have a real faith. Then you have the real religious nut jobs up in Congress try to change the constitution to fit their Christianity. I saw a story in the news not long ago on this very topic. They did a study on how many times each religion was brought up in Congress. Jewish, Mormon, Christianity...by a overwhelming lead the christian congressmen and women invoked their faith in speaking to congress over all other religions put together. Christians are the ones that can not separate their service to ALL of the American people and their personal religion, like other faiths represented in congress.

I think that even if you are a christian you should be opposed to that kind of thing. That is not the place and it is not the way that the bible directed christians to act. Also it is un-constitutional.

quote:

Originally posted by Shoals Resident:
What school is religion being taught in? The public schools I attended did not teach it. The public schools my children attended sure didn't teach it (not even close). Had moment of silence at the beginning of the day and then there was never even any illusion about religion. Is this suppose to just be another thread to stir the pot because some people don't have anything else to do or what? But I am serious, what school is religion being taught?

First of all I said take religion, ALL religion out of schools and politics. Read what I wrote. Read the responses. It is not against the law to teach the bible in school, but you would have to give other religions the same treatment and oh brother you sure don't want that.

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:
Why not take religion out of schools? ALL religion. Schools are for learning, let the religious training be kept in the home. Why not take religion out of government? Let each candidate run on their record, not whether or not they believe, not what they believe, or even if they don't believe. Why can't we do that?

my opinion has always been:

when they start teaching calculus and particle physics in sunday school, they can teach jesus and moses in public school.
it's funny.. they never think that's a good idea...

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Originally posted by O No!:
I think they should teach ABOUT religion in school as it comes up in history. Religion itself though, should be taught at home or in church.

they do. there is a chunk in my son's history.. maybe social studies book... there is about 3 pages on the root basics of islam, christianity judism, hinduism, bhuddism and somethign else that escapes me.. taoism maybe.. not much, and all of it is phrased along the lines of " the muslims believe' or ' jewish people are taught' and along those lines. i didn't have a problem wiht it, i just checked it for accuracy

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But I don't see anything wrong with a moment of silence before starting the day. All of those people of differing religions can pray to the God of their choice, while those who don't believe in God at all can just take a deep breath and prepare for the day ahead.

i don't have a problem with the moment of silence thing.. i'm not sure what the objection to that is, but i've had people on both sides reject it.

but regardless, i still maintain that as long as there are tests and unexpected wood in gym and forgotten homework assignements, there WILL be prayer in schools.

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:
Why not take religion out of schools? ALL religion. Schools are for learning, let the religious training be kept in the home. Why not take religion out of government? Let each candidate run on their record, not whether or not they believe, not what they believe, or even if they don't believe. Why can't we do that?

my opinion has always been: when they start teaching calculus and particle physics in sunday school, they can teach jesus and moses in public school. it's funny.. they never think that's a good idea...

Hi Nagel,

Since they already teach Evolution in schools; why not balance the curriculum by also teaching Creation?

We Christians have no problem with them teaching Evolution balanced by Creation -- why are atheist wetting their pants whenever this is mentioned?

What do you fear -- that our kids will be smart enough to recognize the falseness of Evolution?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Since they already teach Evolution in schools; why not balance the curriculum by also teaching Creation?
Bill

And what religion would you want this teacher to be that teaches creation?

The reason creation isn't taught in schools is because evolution is based on science, and has been and continues to be tested in the field of Biology. Creation is not a scientific theory and can't be accepted on any more level than faith. As Thomas Paine stated, "Theology is the study of nothing". That doesn't really fit in well with a public school curriculum. I've said a hundred times evolution doesn't dismiss God. It may question the validity of that Bible you are waving around.

quote:

As far as I know there is no schools that are teaching religion. Public schools that is. I think what Jennifer is talking about is the constant fight to KEEP it out. If it were left up to many of the local school boards (and parents) it would be all over the place in our school system. They already try and sneak it in with their lousy sticker on the high school biology books and the prayers led at football games and graduations. Left unchecked it would spread like wildfire.

Another great post. Exactly.

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Originally posted by Bill Gray:

And, since we Christians do not complain about having Evolution taught in schools -- why should atheists complain about having Creation taught in schools? We are not afraid of the comparison. Yet, it seems this comparison "almost" scares the devil out of atheists.

Bill, you fundies have complained all the way to court about evolution being taught in schools. For the rest of us, we don't want an allegorical tale to be taught as scientific fact. The message of the creationists needs to stay in Sunday school where it belongs.

But if you are so hot on teaching creationism, will you also allow the Islam version, the Buddhist version, the Taoist version?

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Originally posted by CrustyMac:
But if you are so hot on teaching creationism, will you also allow the Islam version, the Buddhist version, the Taoist version?

Allow? Nope. If one religion gets in, so must they all, including the Hindu version, the Mormon version, the Scientology version, the Bahai version, Confucian version, the Wiccan version, the Zoroastrian version, the Sikh version, the Tao version, the Rastafari version and so on and on and on. As with most religion in government issues (and Pascal's wager), what some Christians clearly don't comprehend is that Christianity is only one of many alternative modern religions. The choice is never just between a Christian "explanation" and science. That is either naive, ignorant or based on fear of competition, or all of the above.

A secular government like ours with freedom of/from religion protects everyone by keeping faith and myth the responsibility of parents and tax-exempt religious institutions. The reason that some religionists complain so loudly about the teaching of science in school is the reality that once children's curious minds have been exposed to real, verifiable, complex, challenging and elegant explanations for phenomena ...hokey stories told by know-nothings from millennia ago are often quaint and empty of real answers and truth. And that is very hard to combat without tons of confusion and nonsense.

dang it. i was gonna do that.

i was gonna say 'sure bill, we can teach creation. would you like to start with the islamic version or the taoist version? i guess we can go by alpha, but that'll give the zoroastrians the last word, are you gonna be ok wth that?"

because bill is pretty predictable, and i was figureing he'd say soemthing similar to what he did say...

and now you dang people come along and take my set up away from me

ah well. /golf clap

well done people.

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
And, since we Christians do not complain about having Evolution taught in schools -- why should atheists complain about having Creation taught in schools? We are not afraid of the comparison. Yet, it seems this comparison "almost" scares the devil out of atheists.

Bill, you fundies have complained all the way to court about evolution being taught in schools. For the rest of us, we don't want an allegorical tale to be taught as scientific fact. The message of the creationists needs to stay in Sunday school where it belongs.

BUT, YOU DO BLESS HAVING THE "FICTIONAL TALE" OF DARWINIAN EVOLUTION TAUGHT AS FACT - RIGHT?

I don't bless anything. Evolution is the best science available. Not fiction, science. I don't insist that evolution be taught in your Sunday school class, why do you insist that a religious story be taught in school?