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Well I think the nun should have turned her care over to a secular medical institution.
I feel for her- i have no doubt it was an agonizing and haunting decision. But she could have transferred the mother/daughter elsewhere, where this decision would have been off of her. Not meaning pass the buck, but Catholics are unequivocably opposed to abortion. Many many other institutions do not carry the weight of the dilemma. So, she was in the wrong in the Church's eyes. A catholic hospital just can't do abortions. Catholic physicians typically refuse abortions- as do OR nurses, anesthesiologists, etc. Why? Because it is in direct opposition of the sanctity of life.
What a sad, sad situation.
I do have high regard for the doctrine protecting the sanctity of life. I think many Catholics do, as well.
Hi Beter and VP,

If anyone on this Religion Forum is known to be anti-abortion -- it is me. I have fought against abortion and will always fight against abortion.

However, I believe this nun was correct in her decision. Yes, there will be times when a decision must be made between two lives -- and I believe that she was right to save the mother's life.

I have always said that I can support abortion in such cases. While I might sit on the fence when it comes to incest or rape -- I will always lean toward saving the mother's life in such instances where it is shown that her death resulting from an attempt to carry the child to term is virtually a certainty.

There is another reason to support this decision that I doubt anyone has considered. Given that there are two lives -- and, one must die; which is better to allow to die -- the one which is certain to go straight into the arms of Jesus in heaven (the baby) or the one where salvation may be in question and a soul could be lost eternally?

Allowing the woman to live -- if she is a believer will allow her to glorify God through her redeemed life. And, if she is not yet a believe; there is time for her to make a decision to follow Jesus Christ.

Regardless of the which reason one chooses -- I support the nun in her decision.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Allowing the woman to live -- if she is a believer will allow her to glorify God through her redeemed life. And, if she is not yet a believe; there is time for her to make a decision to follow Jesus Christ.

Sorry, but I don't think this has anything to do with it.

Hi VP,

Correct me if I am wrong; but, I get the feeling that you would disagree if I said the "outhouse" stinks.

My Friend, I am not the enemy; the world is the enemy. I may not agree with many of your Roman Catholic doctrines and teachings -- but, to the best of my knowledge, we both are on the same team -- the Jesus Team.

Think about it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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I'm not disagreeing with you as "an enemy". You are way too defensive!
I am simply saying that the issue is not whether the woman should live to be a Christian, or what she does with her life. That is secondary. The root of the matter is someone had to decide if she should live, and if her child should be sacrificed in order to make that happen.
That's all..
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
I'm not disagreeing with you as "an enemy". You are way too defensive! I am simply saying that the issue is not whether the woman should live to be a Christian, or what she does with her life. That is secondary. The root of the matter is someone had to decide if she should live, and if her child should be sacrificed in order to make that happen. That's all..

Hi VP,

What would you say is most important to Jesus Christ and to God the Father: (1) How many years a person lives in this mortal life, or (2) The eternal salvation of that person's soul?

God sent Jesus Christ, His only Son, to die a cruel death on the cross for one purpose -- to offer eternal salvation to all who, by His grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- will believe and receive His "paid in full" free gift of eternal life.

The facts are that there are two lives in the balance and one will be lost. One of those lives absolutely has eternal life in Christ locked up; that baby will go directly into the arms of Jesus Christ.

The other life may or may not have eternal life locked yet. Would God want this person to be lost, to be cast into eternal hell, without another chance to repent and follow Jesus Christ? I don't believe so. No, God does not like nor agree with abortions; but, like He brought famine, pestilence, and war upon His own people Israel -- to harvest the remnant who will be saved -- and sacrifice the others; I believe He will allow this innocent child to go into the arms of Jesus -- to save its mother's eternal soul. So, yes, I believe God would not condemn us for allowing this to happen.

God hates abortion. Just as He hates war -- but, at times, uses it to save His people -- I believe He will allow us to use the abominable abortion to save the eternal soul of this mother.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Allowing the woman to live -- if she is a believer will allow her to glorify God through her redeemed life. And, if she is not yet a believe; there is time for her to make a decision to follow Jesus Christ.


Sorry, but I don't think this has anything to do with it.


I hope the woman is a believer. Either way, she has lived long enough to prove she's a productive citizen and she probably has ppl who need her. The child hasn't and doesn't. You go with the proven life every time. Its a no brainer.
Woah!!!! Did I just read that Bill Gray has agreed (for 2 pages of reasons) that the nun did the right thing ? Do y'all realize what this means ?
The nun made a choice, and Bill agrees, so BILL GRAY IS FOR CHOICE !!!!!!!.
Praise the Lord, he has seen the light !
Now, Bill has here-before had the opinion that people who were FOR CHOICE are classified as "PRO ABORTION" by him.
Now, as we all know, Bill is NOT pro abortion, and I hope he now agrees that those of us who are pro choice are NOT pro abortion either.
There is a difference, and to dis-allow that difference is to believe in a lie, and to call us such is to be a liar.

Welcome to the pro choice crowd Bill !
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
God hates abortion. Just as He hates war -- but, at times, uses it to save His people

No, Bill. Abortion is a man made evil. Not used by God. Ever....

Hi VP,

True, abortion is a man-made evil, or Satanic evil. But, we see in Job that God allowed Satan to test Job. And, throughout the Old Testament, God allowed Godless nations to conquer Israel and take them into captivity -- for their long term good.

I will stand by my belief that, in this instance, the nun was right.

Isn't this ironic -- me arguing for the Roman Catholic nun -- and you arguing against the Roman Catholic nun. Will wonders never cease?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bil

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
No, I don't really find it ironic. She made a decision that is in direct opposition to Catholic Doctrine. So why would I support that? I maintain, she should have transferred this woman's care elsewhere.

Hi VP,

But, even if she had transferred the woman to another facility so that she could have the abortion -- that is still condoning the abortion.

That is like telling an alcoholic, "You can't drink in my home -- but, I will send you next door and they will give you whiskey."

Sending the lady to another facility where she knew the lady would be able to have the abortion -- would have only been "passing the buck" to allow the nun to feel pure.

What did Jesus say, "The Law teaches that adultery is a sin; I say that even looking at a woman with adulterous desires is a sin." That is paraphrased; but, you get the point.

Under the circumstances, I believe the nun did the right thing.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Elvis, you're right. what a horrible dilemma. I'm not judging her- I am just stating that her actions are contrary to doctrine. So I guess defending the decision that she be excommunicated.
That being said, surely we don't know the whole story, and I hope all involved are at peace with the outcome. Sad situation all around.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Elvis, you're right. what a horrible dilemma. I'm not judging her- I am just stating that her actions are contrary to doctrine. So I guess defending the decision that she be excommunicated. That being said, surely we don't know the whole story, and I hope all involved are at peace with the outcome. Sad situation all around.

Hi VP,

To me, it is sad that this lady, put into a position where she had to make such a moral choice -- is to be kicked out of her church for making the right decision.

But, on the other hand -- maybe now she will find a church which is not so dogmatic and will find true spiritual peace.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:


......Yes, there will be times when a decision must be made between two lives -- and I believe that she was right to save the mother's life.

I have always said that I can support abortion in such cases. While I might sit on the fence when it comes to incest or rape....

Bill


This statement you made is disturbing. So if you had a daughter and she was raped by a family member you would consider encouraging her to keep the child? If you not saying this can you please explain?
quote:
Originally posted by flotown79:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
However, I believe this nun was correct in her decision. Yes, there will be times when a decision must be made between two lives -- and I believe that she was right to save the mother's life.

I have always said that I can support abortion in such cases. While I might sit on the fence when it comes to incest or rape -- I will always lean toward saving the mother's life in such instances where it is shown that her death resulting from an attempt to carry the child to term is virtually a certainty. Bill

This statement you made is disturbing. So if you had a daughter and she was raped by a family member you would consider encouraging her to keep the child? If you not saying this can you please explain?

Hi Flo,

Yes, if the my daughter's life is not at risk -- physically or mentally -- I would most likely encourage her to have the child. And, we would discuss whether she wanted to keep the child or allow it to be adopted. While I realize that rape and incest are heinous and evil -- that does not make that child's life any less valuable to God.

History has shown, over and over, great people who were conceived under such horrible conditions -- who went on to have a major impact upon the world. What would have happened if that child had been killed by abortion before being allowed to make this contribution to mankind and to society? That would have left a big hole in our world. We cannot judge a child by the conditions of its conception.

Yes, I love my daughters and granddaughters -- and I would do anything to protect them. But, God loves that unborn child even more.

However, I am not saying that I wouldn't be very tempted to play Circumcision Doctor, with a dull knife, upon the man who did this. That would be the test of my Christian walk.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by flotown79:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
However, I believe this nun was correct in her decision. Yes, there will be times when a decision must be made between two lives -- and I believe that she was right to save the mother's life.

I have always said that I can support abortion in such cases. While I might sit on the fence when it comes to incest or rape -- I will always lean toward saving the mother's life in such instances where it is shown that her death resulting from an attempt to carry the child to term is virtually a certainty. Bill

This statement you made is disturbing. So if you had a daughter and she was raped by a family member you would consider encouraging her to keep the child? If you not saying this can you please explain?

Hi Flo,

Yes, if the my daughter's life is not at risk -- physically or mentally -- I would most likely encourage her to have the child. And, we would discuss whether she wanted to keep the child or allow it to be adopted. While I realize that rape and incest are heinous and evil -- that does not make that child's life any less valuable to God.

History has shown, over and over, great people who were conceived under such horrible conditions -- who went on to have a major impact upon the world. What would have happened if that child had been killed by abortion before being allowed to make this contribution to mankind and to society? That would have left a big hole in our world. We cannot judge a child by the conditions of its conception.

Yes, I love my daughters and granddaughters -- and I would do anything to protect them. But, God loves that unborn child even more.

However, I am not saying that I wouldn't be very tempted to play Circumcision Doctor, with a dull knife, upon the man who did this. That would be the test of my Christian walk.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Extremely interesting. But of course you are entitled to your opinion.
She did the right thing in YOUR opinion, Bill. Not the right thing in the eyes of the Church, not to mention against God's Commandment.
So no, I don't think she will be "freed" from dogma to find spiritual peace-that's just weird.
Don't you know if you are excommunicated, all one needs to do is go to Confession!!
It's not as harsh as it seems, but yes, doctrines and traditions must be upheld, as taught by Jesus, handed down through Apostolic Succession. But since you reject that, just think about "THOU SHALT NOT KILL". pretty elementary, really.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
She did the right thing in YOUR opinion, Bill. Not the right thing in the eyes of the Church, not to mention against God's Commandment. So no, I don't think she will be "freed" from dogma to find spiritual peace-that's just weird. Don't you know if you are excommunicated, all one needs to do is go to Confession!! It's not as harsh as it seems, but yes, doctrines and traditions must be upheld, as taught by Jesus, handed down through Apostolic Succession. But since you reject that, just think about "THOU SHALT NOT KILL". pretty elementary, really.

Hi VP,

Since we are quoting the Ten Commandments, let's talk about the First Commandment: Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods before Me" and the Second Commandment, Exodus 20:4, "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."

Now, before you say that is the Protestant Ten Commandments -- no, no, my Friend -- that is straight out of Exodus -- where we all get our Ten Commandments.

And, the last time I looked, Excommunication means, "You're out of here. Do not darken our doorway again!"

Now, you say it is only a sin and all one has to do is to Confess.

By the way, Confess to WHOM? The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ is the ONLY MEDIATOR. Are you talking about confessing to Jesus Christ -- or to some man?

VP, you are so intent upon disagreeing with me and proving me wrong -- that, I think you are getting your feet caught in your Tradition slip.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."


Whats your point here? what does making idols have to do with anything?
And yes, you can confess your sins, and be allowed back into the church.
I think perhaps you have had a nerve struck with the whole adultery thing. HMMM....is this the root of your disdain (please don't insult my intelligence by denying that you indeed have disdain) for the Catholic Church......
Hi VP,

In your earlier post, you wrote, "She did the right thing in YOUR opinion, Bill. Not the right thing in the eyes of the Church, not to mention against God's Commandment. So no, I don't think she will be "freed" from dogma to find spiritual peace - that's just weird. Don't you know if you are excommunicated, all one needs to do is go to Confession!! It's not as harsh as it seems, but yes, doctrines and traditions must be upheld, as taught by Jesus, handed down through Apostolic Succession. But since you reject that, just think about "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" pretty elementary, really."

And, I responded, "Since we are quoting the Ten Commandments, let's talk about the First Commandment: Exodus 20:3, ;You shall have no other gods before Me' and the Second Commandment, Exodus 20:4, 'You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.'"

Now, you ask, "What's your point here? what does making idols have to do with anything?"

You were quoting the Ten Commandments -- so, I wanted to know your take on the SECOND COMMANDMENT.

Then, you say, "And yes, you can confess your sins, and be allowed back into the church."

So, does this penitent person confess to Jesus Christ since HE is the ONLY mediator between man and God? Or, does the person HAVE to confess to a mortal man who will then give him/her the penalty of doing so many Hail Marys to be forgiven. Which kind of confession will allow this person who is excommunicated back into the church.

You know, VP, searching Scripture -- I find no mention of excommunication. In Matthew 18:15-17, we are told by Jesus Christ that if a brethren sins, go to him and reprove him. If he will not listen; take several elders with you to talk with him. If he still will not listen, take him before the church. If then, he still will not listen and repent -- we are told, "Let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer." In other words, have no more fellowship with this person until he/she repents and comes back to his Christian walk.

I see nothing there about excommunication -- or confession to a priest, etc.

Next, in you efforts to beat me down, you say, "I think perhaps you have had a nerve struck with the whole adultery thing."

No, I have no problem at all with that issue -- for I know that my marriage is blessed by God.

Finally, you tell me, "HMMM....is this the root of your disdain (please don't insult my intelligence by denying that you indeed have disdain) for the Catholic Church."

Not at all, I have family, close family, who are strong Roman Catholics. As long as they are born again Christians; God bless them. With them, as with you -- you can believe in your eucharist, your prayers to dead saints, your worship of a mortal man whom you believe is infallible. None of that is important -- as long as one is a born again believer and truly a Christ Follower.

Our salvation is not based upon any of this. Salvation is ONLY based upon -- by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- we believe and receive His "free gift" of salvation. Nothing else is required; nothing else is needed to gain salvation. Of course, when one does have salvation we should expect to see "fruit" of this salvation. That is the works which count -- and it comes after salvation.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by b50m:
Accusing the Catholic church of idolatry again, Bill? Are you going to deny it again?

Hi B50,

What I have written is that the Roman Catholic church has rewritten the Ten Commandments, leaving out Exodus 20:4-6 -- which speaks of making idols. And, the Roman Catholic church has made two commandments out of Exodus 20:17 so there will be the full complement of ten.

You tell us. Why did the Roman Catholic church did this? The only answer can be to circumvent the commandment forbidding idols in the church.

B50, you can read this any way you want. But, first, explain why the Second Commandment, no false idols, is missing from the Roman Catholic Ten Commandments.

This all comes right back to the question: which is the higher authority -- the Bible, authored by God -- or Traditions, authored by mortal men?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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You are misconstruing things again. You need to research Apostolic Succession. It's not "man made" traditions...It's taught by Jesus Himself, and handed down by word of mouth.
You can deny this, Bill, but Jesus found it important enough to teach his Apostles.
Now, this doesn't jive with your "Sola Scriptura" belief.
We get that.
But you know what? Many many Christian believers DO take Apostolic Teachings pretty seriously. And it's not a matter of "which is more important?". Scripture and Tradition compliment one another. So if you deny Sacred Tradition, that's your choice. But there is a lot to be said for Tradition, and living out the example that Jesus lived with His Apostles.

As for idolatry? It's just nonsense. How many cherub Christmas decorations do you have? Any pictures of Jesus? Because if you take that 2nd commandment literally, you better get all your pics of Jesus and Angels, etc out of your house!
Hi VP,

You tell me, "You are misconstruing things again. You need to research Apostolic Succession. It's not "man made" traditions...It's taught by Jesus Himself, and handed down by word of mouth. You can deny this, Bill, but Jesus found it important enough to teach his Apostles. Now, this doesn't jive with your "Sola Scriptura" belief. We get that.

But you know what? Many many Christian believers DO take Apostolic Teachings pretty seriously. And it's not a matter of "which is more important?". Scripture and Tradition compliment one another. So if you deny Sacred Tradition, that's your choice. But there is a lot to be said for Tradition, and living out the example that Jesus lived with His Apostles."


Apostolic Succession is itself -- a MAN-MADE TRADITION. You do not find this in the Bible; nor do you find anywhere in the Bible that Scripture and Tradition are complementary and/or equal. As a matter of fact, we find no mention of man-made Traditions in the Bible. Bible commentaries are one thing; for they do not pretend to be authority, only informative and explanatory. However, Traditions, by their very nature -- are attempting to usurp the authority of the God authored Bible. Heretical? Seems so to me.

Just as the Pharisees needed to create their own laws to "supposedly" add to, or enhance, the Laws given by God to the Israelites, when in fact the Pharisaical laws were meant only to control the people -- your church leadership has created your Traditions to control the masses in your church.

Don't you imagine that if all these Traditions were needed -- that God would have thought of them? He did a pretty good job in authoring the Bible -- yet, you say He stopped short and your church leaders had to finish what He had begun.

This is the same logic, and false teaching, that Rev. Sun Myung Moon tells the people in his Unification Church -- that Jesus Christ did not finish the job of salvation -- and that Moon and his wife have been sent to finish what Jesus could not finish. And, I am sure that Jesus told us on the cross, "It is finished!" So, who is the liar -- Jesus or Sun Myung Moon?

And, what makes Moon any different from the leaders of your church?

Next, you tell me, "As for idolatry? It's just nonsense. How many cherub Christmas decorations do you have? Any pictures of Jesus? Because if you take that 2nd commandment literally, you better get all your pics of Jesus and Angels, etc out of your house!"

It is not a matter of taking the Second Commandment literally or otherwise. The whole issue is that your church totally deleted the God authored Second Commandment -- and replaced it with another more to their liking. How can you, a Roman Catholic, even speak of the Second Commandment, "You shall not make for yourself an idol. . ." -- when you say it does not exist?

That is much like the atheist arguing about God -- when he says that God does not exist. How can he discuss what does not exist? And the same is true of Roman Catholics -- how can you question the original Second Commandment -- when your church teaches that it does not exist?

You are trying to evade the question by talking about Christmas decorations, pictures, etc. My question was, and still is -- why did the Roman Catholic church feel it necessary to remove Exodus 20:4-6, i.e., the original Second Commandment, from your version of the Ten Commandments -- and, then, split Exodus 20:17, "You shall not covet" -- into two separate commandments just to complete the required set of ten?

This was not a slip, or a copyist mistake. This was a deliberate rewriting of the Ten Commandments. Why did the Roman Catholic church feel that this was necessary -- and why did they feel that they have the authority to change what God has authored?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
I am not evading anything. What I asked you, was plain and simple - do you have angel or cherub ornaments? any pictures of Jesus?
It's a yes/no question.

Hi VP,

Yes, I have pictures and drawings of Jesus Christ; but, I do not pray before them, kiss them, nor, in any way, see them as anything other that artist's representations of their concept of Jesus Christ. They are, in no way, religious objects -- and certainly not objects of adoration.

Now, your turn. Why did the Roman Catholic Church delete the God authored Second Commandment and split the Tenth Commandment into two just to complete the set of ten?

Will you answer this question -- or will you attempt another diversionary tactic? We will see.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Yes, I have pictures and drawings of Jesus Christ;


So you are making likeness of something that exists in Heaven.
Thereby breaking the Commandment. Right?

And no, Bill. Catholics do not "take out" a commandment. There is no definitive innumeration in the Bible. Like many things, Catholics and Protestants do not agree on this point, and probably never will. However, Bill, it doesn't matter the number or wording. The story of Exodus occurred what, 600 years before the written Word? So it had been passed down ORALLY ie through SACRED TRADITION until then. .

And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 You shall not have strange gods before me. 4 You shall not make to yourself a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord your God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me: 6 And showing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord his God in vain. 8 Remember that you keep holy the sabbath day. 9 Six days shall you labour, and shall do all your works. 10 But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord your God: you shall do no work on it, neither you nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your beast, nor the stranger that is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. 12 Honour your father and your mother, that you may be longlived upon the land which the Lord your God will give you. 13 You shall not kill. 14 You shall not commit adultery. 15 You shall not steal. 16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour. 17 You shall not covet your neighbour's house; neither shall you desire his wife, nor his servant, nor his handmaid, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is his.

Now, clearly, Bill, This direct text from the Book of Exodus is not the "10 Commandments" in their commonly used form. But we both get the message. Love God. One God. Love one another. The same message is written in Deuteronomy, Its the same message. Little different wording. Does this make it wrong? Same bible, Bill.
Now, if you ever find a Catholic person "worshipping" or adoring a statue, I will eat my hat. Never seen it. Doubt I ever will.
So in short, Protestants and Catholics alike do have objects that remind us of our Faith- pictures of Jesus, a cross necklace, a crucifix, the lamb, angels, statue of Mary, whatever.
But do we bow down to them? no.
So, yes, Catholics are in keeping with this Commandment.
Thank you for allowing me to clear up another common misconception about the Catholic Church.
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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Yes, I have pictures and drawings of Jesus Christ; but, I do not pray before them, kiss them, nor, in any way, see them as anything other that artist's representations of their concept of Jesus Christ. They are, in no way, religious objects -- and certainly not objects of adoration.

And no, Bill. Catholics do not "take out" a commandment. There is no definitive enumeration in the Bible. Like many things, Catholics and Protestants do not agree on this point, and probably never will. However, Bill, it doesn't matter the number or wording. The story of Exodus occurred what, 600 years before the written Word? So it had been passed down ORALLY ie through SACRED TRADITION until then.

And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 You shall not have strange gods before me. 4 You shall not make to yourself a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord your God, mighty, jealous,

Now, if you ever find a Catholic person "worshipping" or adoring a statue, I will eat my hat. Never seen it. Doubt I ever will. So in short, Protestants and Catholics alike do have objects that remind us of our Faith- pictures of Jesus, a cross necklace, a crucifix, the lamb, angels, statue of Mary, whatever. But do we bow down to them? no.

Hi VP,

Why does the Roman Catholic Ten Commandments exclude Exodus 20:4-6? You still have not answered that. It is there -- very clearly -- NO GRAVEN IMAGES -- yet, somehow your church just walks right past that Scripture passage. And, then concentrates on splitting the coveting into two commandments. Why?

Do you worship or adore statues or idols? Well, when I was in the Roman Catholic church -- any time we bought a new statue, rosary, picture, etc. -- the first thing we had to do was to go to a priest and have it blessed. Is that not a form of worship? Do you still do this?

And, as for bowing down to statues -- you cannot go into a Roman Catholic church without seeing people kneeling before the statue of Mary, Joseph, and other dead saints -- even to the point of kissing the statues. And, do you not kneel before the carved images on the Stations of the Cross? My Friend, this is kneeling, kissing, and worshiping -- regardless of what you call it.

By the way, do you want any ketchup for that hat?

And, that is why the Roman Catholic church deleted/changed the Second Commandment.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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nope, you're wrong. We have already established that the Catholic Church you "visited" for 20 years is either not truly a Catholic Church, or your mental awareness was somewhat lacking. Because Bill- remember the false statement you made that you "sat in a church for 20 years and never heard the Gospel of our Lord".
You have already told the nice people at home that you are clueless. We all know that the Gospel is proclaimed at every Mass. So what you witnessed, or perceived to witness is going to have to be taken with a grain of salt.
Never kissed a statue. The only thing that is "venerated" is the Cross.
The Roman Catholic Church did not change the commandment, Bill. Get over this- it is simply not true. Another myth. You should buy an apologist book- they will help you dispell all these myths and untruths you seem to hold- I would recommend Scott Hahn- (a convert to Catholicism), and a PHD. You can find all of his books on line. Good luck....
By the way, the only time one kneels (or genuflects) is upon entering and leaving the Church, in respect for the Blessed Sacrament- which is Jesus Himself, and during the Eucharist, kneeling before Christ.
So your wires are crossed again.....
quote:
cannot go into a Roman Catholic church without seeing people kneeling before the statue of Mary, Joseph, and other dead saints -- even to the point of kissing the statues


This is a lie, Mr. Gray.
I go into a Catholic Church at least 3 times per week. And I have done so for years. And I have never ever seen anyone kiss a statue. And you know what? It is very disrectful, your lack of reverence for the Saints. You should be nicer to them. They can help you! Wink
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray: And, as for bowing down to statues -- you cannot go into a Roman Catholic church without seeing people kneeling before the statue of Mary, Joseph, and other dead saints -- even to the point of kissing the statues. And, do you not kneel before the carved images on the Stations of the Cross? My Friend, this is kneeling, kissing, and worshiping -- regardless of what you call it.

This is a lie, Mr. Gray. I go into a Catholic Church at least 3 times per week. And I have done so for years. And I have never ever seen anyone kiss a statue. And you know what? It is very disrectful, your lack of reverence for the Saints. You should be nicer to them. They can help you!

Hi VP,

Do not Roman Catholics kiss the rosary when praying? Do not Roman Catholics kneel, pray, and kiss the Stations of the Cross?

And, when you get a new statue, rosary, picture, etc. -- do you have it blessed by a priest?

Why?

Isn't that a form of worship?

And, addressing some of your statements in your other post -- are the Roman Catholic churches in Alabama different from those in Colorado, Virginia, and California? What I have shared about my experiences in the Roman Catholic churches is true. And, no I have not seen the Gospel of Jesus Christ shared in any mass. Now, you may have your own version of what you call the Gospel; but, what most Christians see as the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- is not the mass.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray: And, as for bowing down to statues -- you cannot go into a Roman Catholic church without seeing people kneeling before the statue of Mary, Joseph, and other dead saints -- even to the point of kissing the statues. And, do you not kneel before the carved images on the Stations of the Cross? My Friend, this is kneeling, kissing, and worshiping -- regardless of what you call it.

This is a lie, Mr. Gray. I go into a Catholic Church at least 3 times per week. And I have done so for years. And I have never ever seen anyone kiss a statue. And you know what? It is very disrectful, your lack of reverence for the Saints. You should be nicer to them. They can help you!

Hi VP,

Do not Roman Catholics kiss the rosary when praying? Do not Roman Catholics kneel, pray, and kiss the Stations of the Cross?

And, when you get a new statue, rosary, picture, etc. -- do you have it blessed by a priest?

Why?

Isn't that a form of worship?

And, addressing some of your statements in your other post -- are the Roman Catholic churches in Alabama different from those in Colorado, Virginia, and California? What I have shared about my experiences in the Roman Catholic churches is true. And, no I have not seen the Gospel of Jesus Christ shared in any mass. Now, you may have your own version of what you call the Gospel; but, what most Christians see as the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- is not the mass.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill, you are such a liar.
quote:
Originally posted by smokey1:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray: And, as for bowing down to statues -- you cannot go into a Roman Catholic church without seeing people kneeling before the statue of Mary, Joseph, and other dead saints -- even to the point of kissing the statues. And, do you not kneel before the carved images on the Stations of the Cross? My Friend, this is kneeling, kissing, and worshiping -- regardless of what you call it.

This is a lie, Mr. Gray. I go into a Catholic Church at least 3 times per week. And I have done so for years. And I have never ever seen anyone kiss a statue. And you know what? It is very disrectful, your lack of reverence for the Saints. You should be nicer to them. They can help you!

Hi VP,

Do not Roman Catholics kiss the rosary when praying? Do not Roman Catholics kneel, pray, and kiss the Stations of the Cross?

And, when you get a new statue, rosary, picture, etc. -- do you have it blessed by a priest?

Why?

Isn't that a form of worship?

And, addressing some of your statements in your other post -- are the Roman Catholic churches in Alabama different from those in Colorado, Virginia, and California? What I have shared about my experiences in the Roman Catholic churches is true. And, no I have not seen the Gospel of Jesus Christ shared in any mass. Now, you may have your own version of what you call the Gospel; but, what most Christians see as the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- is not the mass.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill, you are such a liar.

Hi Smokey,

Show me where I am lying. Everything I have written in this dialogue comes from my own personal experience in the Roman Catholic church. And, I have no reason whatsoever to lie about it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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No, Bill.
We don't kiss the Rosary.
You are lying about that.
And no, don't kiss or bow before Stations of the Cross.

The Gospel is read at EVERY MASS around the world. Every Mass. It's called the universal Church, because we are all on the "same page". Every Catholic Church around the world will hear the same readings, and the same Gospel every Mass.
Now stop the lies, please. Educate yourself.
You know NOTHING about Catholicism- only those myths that have been lurking forever. So do us all a favor, please, and educate yourself before you speak negatively of one's religion. We are Christians, just like you claim to be, and because you had some weird and jaded experience in the Catholic Church when you were not even a Christian.(Therefore you prob. had no idea what was going on...)

You don't know "jack". You talk in circles, harping on the same myths. You are incapable of understanding anything that is spiritual, or guided by the Holy Spirit. You are so sad...

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