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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
And you never did answer my question, Bill. Are you, or are you not breaking the 2nd Commandment by having angels, cherubs, pics of Jesus. Why, or why not. You are creating a likeness of something in Heaven.

Hi VP,

Actually, I did answer your question; however, please allow me to do so once again.

Do I have ceramic angels, cherubs, and drawings depicting an artist's rendition of his thoughts about the features of Jesus Christ?

Yes. However, the overriding difference this and the Roman Catholic church is: first, I do not worship them, I do not pray to them or in front of them, I do not have an altar set up to honor them, I do not kiss them -- and, I have never had a priest bless them.

Basically, all I do with them is to ocassionally dust them.

So, if you want to consider me a heretic for this -- remember that when you point your finger at another -- three fingers are pointing back at you. And, when it comes to breaking the Second Commandment, the real Second Commandment -- there are a lot of fingers pointing in your direction.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
No, Bill.
We don't kiss the Rosary.
You are lying about that.
And no, don't kiss or bow before Stations of the Cross.

Hi VP,

Are you sure that you have not stumbled into a good Baptist church and just have not yet realized that you are doing things right?

Just a thought.

For, in every Roman Catholic church I attended for twenty years -- these things were done.

And, when you see a Mass on television -- you always see the priest kissing the crucifix and, see people kissing their rosaries as they pray.

Whole lot of kissing going on!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Are you sure that you have not stumbled into a good Baptist church and just have not yet realized that you are doing things right?


Quite sure. I do recognize when I am in the Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.
And yes, we are doing things right. We don't worship statues. or rosaries, or anything except God. and when a priest blesses something, he asks the Holy Spirit to guide the prayers of the person who uses it. There is nobody reasonable who could find fault with that.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Are you sure that you have not stumbled into a good Baptist church and just have not yet realized that you are doing things right?

Quite sure. I do recognize when I am in the Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.
And yes, we are doing things right. We don't worship statues. or rosaries, or anything except God. and when a priest blesses something, he asks the Holy Spirit to guide the prayers of the person who uses it. There is nobody reasonable who could find fault with that.

Hi VP,

But, all believers can go directly to God in prayer -- and to the Holy Spirit for blessings. Why would anyone need a priest to do what God has given us free access to do?

And, why do ceramic statues and metal/wood rosaries need to be blessed? They are only material objects; they have no soul. All blessings should be prayed for we mortals who have souls to be blessed. Ceramic, stone, wood, and metal have no soul -- and no value -- except what we put on them.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Oh, good grief. You are really grasping at straws here, Bill. Do you not say a blessing over your meals before you eat? Bless Us, O Lord, and these, Thy gifts which we are about to receive from your bounty????

Hi VP,

Yes, I always pray before a meal, thanking God for the food and all the blessings He has given to me and my family. However, I do not need a priest to bless my food for me -- I do it myself, or sometimes my wife will do the praying. But, not a priest in sight!

And, I do not kiss my table, nor my fork, nor my food -- but, I will often kiss my wife. Does that count as spiritual?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Well Bill, all I can say is the 'supposed' Catholic church you went to must have been in California and they did some weed before the mass. Only explanation.

Now, why are you complaining about Christianity instead of trying to save some atheists?

In one thread, we are all on the same side, in another thread, Catholics are the enemy.

Peace, live long and prosper.
quote:
I do not need a priest to bless my food for me


So you bless your food. Ok. But you argued earlier that things that don't have souls don't need blessings.
you said " why do ceramic statues and metal/wood rosaries need to be blessed? They are only material objects; they have no soul. All blessings should be prayed for we mortals who have souls to be blessed. Ceramic, stone, wood, and metal have no soul -- and no value -- except what we put on them."
so does your food have a soul? why do you bless it?

You are so confused, you are tripping up in what you are even arguing. You contradict yourself so often that I can't keep up. Why not just say "oops," and move on.

As far as the 2nd commandment, you say:

"Yes. However, the overriding difference this and the Roman Catholic church is: first, I do not worship them, I do not pray to them or in front of them, I do not have an altar set up to honor them, I do not kiss them -- and, I have never had a priest bless them. "

But the commandment is "DO NOT CREATE A LIKENESS". so why are you ok, and I'm not?
The commandment doesn't say don't create an image and have it blessed by a priest. It says "DO NOT CREATE AN IMAGE". so, tell me, why, if it's ok for you to have a Picture of Jesus, it's not ok for me to have a statue of Jesus.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Well Bill, all I can say is the 'supposed' Catholic church you went to must have been in California and they did some weed before the mass. Only explanation. Now, why are you complaining about Christianity instead of trying to save some atheists? In one thread, we are all on the same side, in another thread, Catholics are the enemy. Peace, live long and prosper.

Hi B50,

No, the Roman Catholic churches I attended were in Colorado, Virginia, and California. And, I especially liked the one in Canoga Park, California, for they had all Irish priests -- and I loved to hear them speaking.

This was at Our Lady of the Valley Roman Catholic church in Canoga Park -- and this where I went to pray the morning John Kennedy was shot. And, I attended Holy Family in Orange, California -- plus a few others over the years.

And, at the Roman Catholic church in Norfolk, Virginia, I also coached their basketball team. I still have the very nice set of cuff links they gave me in appreciation.

But, let me ask you -- are YOU saying that SOME Roman Catholic churches are bad -- and that the priests smoke pot? You have an interesting concept of the Roman Catholic church. I have never heard anyone else, especially a Roman Catholic, tell us this.

Getting past that strange thought, for once, I agree with you -- that we should be addressing the non-believers instead of bickering among ourselves. However, VP has this thing about Bill Gray and wants to continually challenge me. I do not want to bicker with him. If VP believes in the Eucharist, that Mary is the Mother of God, that he should be praying to Mary and all the dead saints, and that he should be confessing to a human priest -- instead of our heavenly High Priest -- that is fine with me. It is just that I cannot personally believe or follow any of this.

Yet, none of this affects his salvation. So, go for it. We are saved by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus NOTHING ELSE (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, if we disagree on these issues, or on issues such as End Time prophecies, or time and method of baptism, etc. -- not a problem. Let's just agree to disagree on these issues and move on to important issues -- such as saving lost souls, as you suggested.

I vote Yea! and Amen! to this.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Hi VP,

In my earlier post, I wrote, "Yes, I always pray before a meal, thanking God for the food and all the blessings He has given to me and my family. However, I do not need a priest to bless my food for me -- I do it myself, or sometimes my wife will do the praying. But, not a priest in sight! And, I do not kiss my table, nor my fork, nor my food -- but, I will often kiss my wife. Does that count as spiritual?"

And, you seem to be confused as you respond, "So you bless your food. Ok. But you argued earlier that things that don't have souls don't need blessings. You said, "Why do ceramic statues and metal/wood rosaries need to be blessed? They are only material objects; they have no soul. All blessings should be prayed for we mortals who have souls to be blessed. Ceramic, stone, wood, and metal have no soul -- and no value -- except what we put on them." So does your food have a soul? why do you bless it?

No, if you will really read what I wrote, I said, "I always pray before a meal, thanking God for the food and all the blessings He has given to me and my family."

I thank God for the food; I thank God for blessing me and my family -- but, I do not bless the food -- nor do I kiss it.

Next, you tell me, "You are so confused, you are tripping up in what you are even arguing. You contradict yourself so often that I can't keep up. Why not just say, [i]'Oops,'
and move on?"

My Friend, so far you have NEVER shown me where I have tripped over anything -- except maybe your confusion or your raving desire to best me. VP, this is not a contest -- regardless of how much you want to turn it into a playground spat. As B50 suggested, we should stop this incessant bickering -- and work together to share with the non-believers. Jesus, in Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15 tells us to be His witnesses, to share the Gospel with the lost of the world. He is not telling us to fight over non-essential doctrinal issues among ourselves.

Then, you declare, "As far as the 2nd commandment, you say: 'Do I have ceramic angels, cherubs, and drawings depicting an artist's rendition of his thoughts about the features of Jesus Christ? Yes. However, the overriding difference with this and the Roman Catholic church is: first, I do not worship them, I do not pray to them or in front of them, I do not have an altar set up to honor them, I do not kiss them -- and, I have never had a priest bless them.'"

But the commandment is "DO NOT CREATE A LIKENESS." So why are you ok, and I'm not? The commandment doesn't say don't create an image and have it blessed by a priest. It says "DO NOT CREATE AN IMAGE." So, tell me, why, if it's ok for you to have a Picture of Jesus, it's not ok for me to have a statue of Jesus."


My Friend, you do not seem to comprehend what you read. The HUGE difference is what I wrote: "I do not worship them, I do not pray to them or in front of them, I do not have an altar set up to honor them, I do not kiss them -- and, I have never had a priest bless them." In other words, to me they are just material items, pieces of ceramic, wood, and paper -- I DO NOT worship them, I do not worship in front of them; I do not give them ANY special significance. They are merely objects. Yet, for you these items are spiritual, they are holy -- and that is why you MUST have a priest bless them.

I know. I used to do the same thing. When I would buy a statue, or a rosary, or a Missal, etc. for myself or for a friend -- the first thing I would do was to go to the rectory and have a priest bless it. Then, I could relax -- knowing that his object I held in my hands was, someway, made holy. Actually, it was made nothing except what it was -- ceramic, wood, or paper.

VP, I worship, bow down to, and honor only one Person -- Jesus Christ. No picture, no statue, no Missal, no rosary, not even the Bible. No, the Bible is not holy to me -- what it contains is holy to me. The material Bible is only paper and leather, vinyl, or whatever. However, what is written IN the book IS the inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word of God.

How about you and me lay aside all these difference -- and get on the same team -- the Jesus Soul Winning Team. Sounds like a plan to me. How about you?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
But, let me ask you -- are YOU saying that SOME Roman Catholic churches are bad -- and that the priests smoke pot? You have an interesting concept of the Roman Catholic church. I have never heard anyone else, especially a Roman Catholic, tell us this.

Actually, it was more of a joke, however; I am NOT catholic, I just have friends who are. You are confusing me with LMM, who we talked about earlier. Her husband was raised Catholic.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Absolutely. With the understanding that you will not perpetuate any more myths and misconceptions about the Catholic Church. However, if you do this, you can guarantee that I will refute them.

Hi VP,

No more sermons about the Eucharists and no more Hail Marys from you -- and I will not have to share the truth about them with our Friends. Deal?

And, B50, I, too, have friends and family members who are Roman Catholic. That does not make many of their doctrines and traditions correct -- it merely tells us how they worship. I personally prefer doctrines of worship more closely based upon the Bible -- and not traditions. But, as long as our Roman Catholic friends and family are born again Christians -- that is all that matters; not their manner of worship.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
No more sermons about the Eucharists and no more Hail Marys from you -- and I will not have to share the truth about them with our Friends. Deal?

There you go again. Even in your "olive branch" you are snide. And you wonder why I feel the need to defend myself.

Hi VP,

My answer was only in response to your remark, "Absolutely. With the understanding that you will not perpetuate any more myths and misconceptions about the Catholic Church. However, if you do this, you can guarantee that I will refute them."

Is what I said any more "snide" than your comment to which I responded?

Let's let it rest. Okay?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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'''that is all that matters; not their manner of worship.'''

If only you actually believed that, Bill.

I don't see how dinosaurs and Adam and Eve lived together given that the carnivorous ones had sharp fangs and would have eaten them but you and your fundamentalist group said they did. Then you will tell me they were all vegetarians before Eve sinned; great, except no T-Rex has eve been found with grinding teeth.

No T-Rex or other fossils have ever matched C14 dating of human remains.

So Bill, if you want us all to ignore the manner of worship, you will have to expect comments on yours if you make comments on others.


Let's let it rest. Okay?
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
'''that is all that matters; not their manner of worship.'''

If only you actually believed that, Bill.

I don't see how dinosaurs and Adam and Eve lived together given that the carnivorous ones had sharp fangs and would have eaten them but you and your fundamentalist group said they did. Then you will tell me they were all vegetarians before Eve sinned; great, except no T-Rex has eve been found with grinding teeth.

No T-Rex or other fossils have ever matched C14 dating of human remains.

So Bill, if you want us all to ignore the manner of worship, you will have to expect comments on yours if you make comments on others.


Let's let it rest. Okay?


Betcha those saber-toothed cats were glad Adam and eve sinned! Being carnivorously-toothed is no fun without meat to eat!
quote:
no more Hail Marys from you -- and I will not have to share the truth about them with our Friends. Deal?


Bill, this is why I won't "let it rest" with you, and consider us on the same team.
You say "No more Hail Mary's from you". By saying this, you are denying the Word of God- words directly from the Holy Bible- the inerrant, literal word of God.
"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women", embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke, I, 28). The second, "and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Jesus)", is borrowed from the Divinely inspired greeting of St. Elizabeth (Luke, I, 42)...
So when you tell me to stop with the Hail Mary's I do take great offense. And so should anyone else who values the Word of God. The Hail Mary prayer is derived from Sacred Scripture. You don't like it because it shines the spotlight on Mary. But Bill! If She was good enough for Jesus, She's good enough for me!
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
No more sermons about the Eucharist and no more Hail Marys from you -- and I will not have to share the truth about them with our Friends. Deal?

Bill, this is why I won't "let it rest" with you, and consider us on the same team. You say "No more Hail Mary's from you." By saying this, you are denying the Word of God - words directly from the Holy Bible - the inerrant, literal word of God.

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women," embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke I:28). The second, "and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Jesus)," is borrowed from the Divinely inspired greeting of St. Elizabeth (Luke I:42)...

So when you tell me to stop with the Hail Mary's I do take great offense. And so should anyone else who values the Word of God. The Hail Mary prayer is derived from Sacred Scripture. You don't like it because it shines the spotlight on Mary. But Bill! If She was good enough for Jesus, She's good enough for me!

Hi VP,

Let's get this all in context. You tell me, "'Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women,' embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke I: 28)."

Looking at the four most popular Bible translations, I agree with you -- we see only a greeting from the Angel Gabriel. This is, in no way, a prayer. And, we are not taught by Gabriel, nor Jesus, nor the Holy Spirit, nor God the Father -- to make this a prayer. This transition from greeting, or as you call it, this salutation -- to prayer -- is purely the imagination and tradition of men.

Luke 1:28 (kjv), "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women."

Luke 1:28 (nkjv), "And having come in, the angel said to her, 'Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!'"

Luke 1:28 (nasb), "And coming in, he said to her, 'Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.'"

Luke 1:28 (niv), "The angel went to her and said, 'Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.'”

And, later In Luke 1:39-47, when Mary visits her cousin, Elizabeth, we read, "Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah, and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

And she cried out with a loud voice and said, 'Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.' And Mary said: 'My soul exalts the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.'"


This is two mortal women greeting one another. Yes, they are very blessed women; but, mortal women nonetheless. And, when Mary's cousin, Elizabeth, says to her, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!" -- that is a greeting -- NOT A PRAYER!

Did God the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit teach us a prayer? Yes, in Luke 11:2-4, "And He said to them, 'When you pray, say: 'Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'"

Or as we read in Mat 6:9-13, "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

If you will notice, both versions say that we should hallow the name of God the Father -- not a mortal woman.

In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-18 we are told, "Rejoice always; pray without ceasing; in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus."

The first two are models of prayer given to us by our Lord. The third is an encouragement to prayer from the apostle Paul. No where in the Bible are we told, "Pray these exact words!" And, if you will notice, when evangelicals guide people to pray for salvation, we tell them to pray this prayer, the wording we suggest -- or a similar pray in your own words. No prayers by rote -- even for salvation.

Jesus tells us Matthew 6:7, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words."

When one prays prewritten prayers by rote, such as from man-written Prayer Books -- this is exactly what Jesus means in this admonition to not pray the same repeated, man-written prayers over and over and over and over.

VP, you tell me, "The Hail Mary prayer is derived from Sacred Scripture. You don't like it because it shines the spotlight on Mary."

No, I do not like ANY canned, prewritten prayers -- for my Lord tells me not to pray repetitious prayers. He wants our prayers to come from our heart -- not from some man's pen.

Do I consider it shining a spotlight on Mary? Possibly. But, I, too, respect Mary. I just do not worship her and I do not consider her the Mother of God.

You say that this is prayer because it was derived from Scripture. The Holy Spirit implanted the seed of our Lord Jesus Christ within the womb of the mortal woman, Mary. Truly this was a supernatural act of God and no one can deny this. But, did this make Mary a supernatural woman? No. Did this make Mary the Mother of God? No, for God being preexisting CANNOT have a mother.

But, in Numbers 22:28 we read of another supernatural act of God, "And the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, 'What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?'"

God performed a supernatural act upon this donkey -- temporarily giving it the power of human speech. Does this mean that we should worship donkeys? Does this mean that donkey was or is divine? No. That was just an ordinary donkey through which God did extraordinary things. The same applies to Mary - a mortal woman through whom God performed a supernatural act. But, still a normal, mortal woman -- who, after the birth of Jesus Christ, went on to give birth to and raise many other children -- normal, mortal children.

No, VP, your Hail Mary prayers are man-written, by rote, prayers being prayed to a mortal woman who has been dead for two thousand years and cannot hear your prayer requests. If you want your prayer requests to be heard in heaven -- go to the ONE AND ONLY MEDIATOR between man and God -- 1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."

Yes, Mary is the mortal human womb through which God performed this miracle -- and Mary is the mother of the human Jesus Christ -- but, Mary is, in no way -- the Mother of God!

And, if what I have written offends you, I am truly sorry. However, when you insist upon preaching man-made Traditions which are not Biblical -- I have to refute them from the Bible, the only, the sole source of divine authority -- yes, "Sola Scriptura" -- by Scripture Alone.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Luke 1:28 (kjv), "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.

How many other 'mortal' women were favored and blessed by God, Bill? How many others gave birth to a God?

Hi B50,

Does it really matter? She is still only a mortal, sinful woman -- and she did not give birth to God; she gave birth to the human incarnation of Jesus Christ. No one has given birth to God -- for He is preexisting -- meaning that He has ALWAYS existed. If this is not true -- then, He is not God.

Mary is a mortal, sinful woman who was blessed to be the womb which birthed the human incarnation of Jesus Christ -- no more, no less.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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'''No more, no less.'''

Absolutely, she was the ONE picked by God to give birth to His Child, which was part of Him and part of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, Bill, just your run of the mill peasant who God entrusted to not only give birth to HIS SON but also raise Him and guide Him until he was 30.

Yes, she was just a sinful woman. Totally useless.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
'''No more, no less.''' Absolutely, she was the ONE picked by God to give birth to His Child, which was part of Him and part of the Holy Spirit. Yes, Bill, just your run of the mill peasant who God entrusted to not only give birth to HIS SON but also raise Him and guide Him until he was 30. Yes, she was just a sinful woman. Totally useless.

Hi B50,

Yes, she was a blessed woman -- but, still a mortal woman with a sin nature -- just like you and me.

Yes, she was chosen by God to be the womb through which the human nature of Jesus Christ would be incarnated. Jesus needed to be born and to be like us in all ways (Hebrews 2:17) so that He could be our High Priest, our only Mediator between man and God. So, He was birthed through a woman's womb, just like you and me.

But, this did not, in any way, make her divine; it did not make her deity; it did not make her the Mother of God; it made her only a very blessed mortal woman.

She is someone to be respected, for God respected her. However, she is not one to be worshiped; she is not one to whom we should pray.

The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ, when He ascended, sat down at the right hand of God. The Bible recognizes the 24 Elders -- whom most believe to be the 12 patriarchs of Israel and the 12 apostles. There is no mention in the Bible of Mary in this respect.

The last mention of Mary, the mother of the human Jesus, is in Acts 1:14, "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."

She was in the Upper Room with 119 other disciples -- including the human brothers of Jesus, in prayer as Jesus Christ had instructed them -- and the Holy Spirit came upon them all. After this, there is no mention of Mary in the Bible. There is no mention of her death; there is no mention of any ascension or assumption -- from this point on the Bible is silent about Mary. Why?

If she were the Queen of Heaven; if she were the Mother of God; if she had some miraculous ascension, or assumption, into heaven; if she were anything other than a very blessed mortal woman -- don't you think God would have made some mention of this in the Bible?

Assumption of Mary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Mary

According to the belief of Christians of the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches and by some Anglicans, the Assumption of Mary was the bodily taking up of the Virgin Mary into Heaven at the end of her life. The Catholic Church teaches as dogma that Mary, "having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory." [b] This doctrine was dogmatically and infallibly defined by Pope Pius XII[//b] on November 1, 1950, in his Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus.

If this were true -- why do we not read about it in the Bible? Why is the Bible completely silent about the fate of both Joseph and Mary? From the Bible, no one knows when either of them died, or how, or where. And, while the Bible tells us where Abraham, Sarah, Joseph, and many other Biblical people are buried -- it says absolutely nothing about Joseph and Mary. Why? Maybe God did not consider this information important to us -- because they walked off the pages of Biblical history.

The only place we hear anything else about Mary is in Roman Catholic Traditions -- man-made traditions.

So, B50, if you and VP want to worship Mary; that is your business. Personally, I will stick to following and worshiping Jesus Christ -- for I am told in the Bible that He is my Lord and Savior -- and that He is the ONLY MEDIATOR between man and God.

But, now that we have discussed Mary to death -- why don't we talk about other issues where both Roman Catholics and Baptists can agree. Sounds like a good plan to me.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Mary was conceived without sin. She was not a sinful mortal woman.
The immaculate conception refers to MARY's conception in her mother's womb. The holy spirit intervened and allowed her to be born without sin.
that's why she is called Blessed!
She is ever-virgin, ever-blessed. Not only Catholics believe this, Bill.
And yes, the Mother of God.
Bill- Jesus is God. Mary is Jesus' mother
Anyone with a smidgen of logic can conclude that since the Father and the Son are ONE, and that Jesus is the Son of Mary, hmmm...Mary is the Mother of God.
You don't have to believe it. I'm through trying to convince you. But I know the Truth, as many others do as well.
Do I worship Mary? No. But I do hold her in high esteem, and consider myself to have somewhat of a Marian Devotion.
She was no ordinary woman, Bill. She was sinless and Blessed. The Mother of God.
You may not believe it now, but I hope you get to believe it later. And no, she didn't drop off the face of the biblical earth...she was assumed into Heaven. The moon at her feet, Bill.
Sola Scriptura doesn't give the full story. You miss a lot when you leave out the Oral Traditions and teachings that were the source of the story BEFORE the bible was written. If you discard them, you are not getting the full story. Nothing like a succession of Tradition, passed without a break in the chain, directly from Jesus. That, my friend, is where the "man made" Traditions come from= A DIVINE MAN. Jesus.
So reject whatever you want, but you do not have the authority to state that Apostolic Succession and Oral Traditions/Teachings are wrong. At least you best not unequivocably say that, because you cannot back it up.
Last edited by Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Mary was conceived without sin. She was not a sinful mortal woman. The immaculate conception refers to MARY's conception in her mother's womb. The holy spirit intervened and allowed her to be born without sin.

Hi VP,

Please show all of us where we can verify this in the Bible. After all, the Bible is the ONLY Written Word of God -- so, if this is true -- it MUST be in the Bible.

If you can show me this -- I will join you in worshiping Mary.

But, from everything I have read in the Bible, Mary was a very devout young lady, very blessed -- yet, still a mortal human, born with the same sin nature you and I inherited.

She was used by God to birth Jesus Christ. And, then she had other children. Yes, Jesus Christ had mortal human brothers and sisters.

And, his brother, James, became a believer and a church leader after His death and resurrection.

But, VP, I sincerely would like to see the Scripture reference which tells us that Mary was born sinless. For, my Bible tells me that ONLY JESUS was and is sinless. That is why He could pay our sin debt which we could not pay -- for we are not perfect, we are not sinless

Now, if Mary were sinless -- she could have been crucified, instead of Jesus, to pay our sin debt -- and Jesus Christ would not have had to become God incarnate.

VP, as a Friend, I would suggest that you quite playing Don Quixote and fighting against windmills. If you are happy and find peace in following your church originated Traditions -- then, God bless you, please continue.

However, as long as you continue to demand that we believe this fiction -- you will always have egg on your face. It is not Biblical; it is Roman Catholic man-made Tradition. But, if you are happy with it; that is good. Stay with it; but, please do not expect us to believe these traditions.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Hi VP,

You tell me, "Sola Scriptura doesn't give the full story."

So, God forgot to put something as important as Mary being sinless; as important as Mary being taken up into heaven in a special Rapture -- He just overlooked something this important when He authored the Bible?

VP, if you really believe that -- I have some ice cubes you can sell to the Eskimos.

Sorry, my Friend -- but, when God authored the Bible -- He did not forget anything; He gave us His full story.

However, later, in the 3rd and 4th century, church leaders wanting to create a Pharisaical environment among Christian believers, wanting to take them back into a legalistic Jewish type religion again where it is easier to control the masses with books of laws -- sat down and wrote the Roman Catholic laws, called Traditions.

Then, they declared themselves to be like God -- infallible. And the people bought this because the people were not allow to read and study the Bible for themselves. Why? Because the church leaders knew that when the people began to understand what God teaches in the Bible -- church leaders would not be able to control them.

And, this is what happened with Martin Luther. He began to study Scripture and discovered that we are saved by grace through faith.

Someday, I pray that you, like Martin Luther, will discover this amazing truth.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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BS!
Tradition is ORAL teaching, passed from Jesus to Peter, and so on. On up to Benedict,without missing a link. We don't WORSHIP Mary. And the man made Traditions were made by Jesus. A Divine Man. So I guess you're a little bit right. You keep saying you don't want to discuss this any further, but yet, there are constant slams against anyone who does not adopt your fundamentalist views. Do you just want a forum in which you can play preacher, and not have anyone question or challenge your writings??

Refute Tradition all you want, Bill. I am sick of this conversation.
I have already found the Truth, so I don't really need your prayers for such. I'm good- but thanks! Instead, why don't you pray for our country's leaders (especially our President), people who are oppressed, victims of violence, and those who are suffering.
Much better use of your prayer time.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
BS! Tradition is ORAL teaching, passed from Jesus to Peter, and so on. On up to Benedict,without missing a link. We don't WORSHIP Mary. And the man made Traditions were made by Jesus. A Divine Man.

No, my Friend,

Tradition is all the written laws passed down by Roman Catholic popes whom YOU believe are infallible.

Only Jesus Christ, God, is infallible. The rest of us, including the pope and his traditions -- are sinners and are not infallible.

You say you do not worship Mary -- yet, you tell us she is the Mother of God! Is that not worship? Misguided, but, still worship.

Don Quixote, my Friend, you continue to flail at windmills.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Yes, My Friend.
Tradition passed from Jesus to Peter, and then down the line.
A pope is only said to be infallible when teaching on doctrine, as he is then guided by the Holy Spirit, and following Apostolic Succession.
It is abundantly clear that you will continue to reject this- that's your perogative.
but please, stop perpetuating lies about my church. thank you.
Hi VP,

You tell me, "Yes, My Friend. Tradition passed from Jesus to Peter, and then down the line."

Show me that in the Bible.

Then, you say, "A pope is only said to be infallible when teaching on doctrine, as he is then guided by the Holy Spirit, and following Apostolic Succession."

Show me the pope's infallibility in the Bible.

Show me Apostolic Succession in the Bible

Next, you tell me, "It is abundantly clear that you will continue to reject this - that's your prerogative."

No, if you will show me this written in the Bible, God's Written Word -- I promise I will believe it.

Finally, you tell me, "but please, stop perpetuating lies about my church. thank you."

I back what I write by the Bible. Therefore, what I write is not a lie, but is from the Bible. You will notice that I quote Scripture verses and passages in my writings.

You, on the other hand, tell all these unbelievable tales about bread and juice turning to human flesh and human blood -- about Mary being miraculously Raptured, when you do not even believe in the Rapture -- about Mary being born sinless when the Bible tells us that everyone EXCEPT Jesus is born with a sin nature -- about the mortal human pope being infallible when the Bible tells us that only God is infallible -- and so many more "flight of fancy" stories -- none of which you can support by any Scripture.

And, you tell us that Mary is the Mother of God -- when God is preexisting; He is not created, therefore He cannot have a mother. Otherwise, He would not be God.

So, VP, based upon this -- who is perpetuating untruths?

Again, you are like Don Quixote -- flailing away at windmills.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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