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Originally posted by vplee123:
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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
No more sermons about the Eucharist and no more Hail Marys from you -- and I will not have to share the truth about them with our Friends. Deal?
Bill, this is why I won't "let it rest" with you, and consider us on the same team. You say
"No more Hail Mary's from you." By saying this, you are denying the Word of God - words directly from the Holy Bible - the inerrant, literal word of God.
"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women," embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke I:28). The second,
"and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Jesus)," is borrowed from the Divinely inspired greeting of St. Elizabeth (Luke I:42)...
So when you tell me to stop with the Hail Mary's I do take great offense. And so should anyone else who values the Word of God. The Hail Mary prayer is derived from Sacred Scripture. You don't like it because it shines the spotlight on Mary. But Bill! If She was good enough for Jesus, She's good enough for me!
Hi VP,
Let's get this all in context. You tell me,
"'Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women,' embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke I: 28)." Looking at the four most popular Bible translations, I agree with you -- we see only
a greeting from the Angel Gabriel. This is, in no way, a prayer. And, we are not taught by Gabriel, nor Jesus, nor the Holy Spirit, nor God the Father -- to make this a prayer. This transition from greeting, or as you call it, this salutation -- to prayer -- is purely the imagination and tradition of men.
Luke 1:28 (kjv),
"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women." Luke 1:28 (nkjv),
"And having come in, the angel said to her, 'Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!'" Luke 1:28 (nasb),
"And coming in, he said to her, 'Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.'"Luke 1:28 (niv),
"The angel went to her and said, 'Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.'” And, later In Luke 1:39-47, when Mary visits her cousin, Elizabeth, we read,
"Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah, and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
And she cried out with a loud voice and said, 'Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.' And Mary said: 'My soul exalts the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.'" This is two mortal women greeting one another. Yes, they are very blessed women; but, mortal women nonetheless. And, when Mary's cousin, Elizabeth, says to her,
"Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!" -- that is a greeting -- NOT A PRAYER!
Did God the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit teach us a prayer? Yes, in Luke 11:2-4,
"And He said to them, 'When you pray, say: 'Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'" Or as we read in Mat 6:9-13,
"Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil." If you will notice, both versions say that we should hallow the name of God the Father -- not a mortal woman.
In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-18 we are told,
"Rejoice always; pray without ceasing; in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus." The first two are models of prayer given to us by our Lord. The third is an encouragement to prayer from the apostle Paul. No where in the Bible are we told,
"Pray these exact words!" And, if you will notice, when evangelicals guide people to pray for salvation, we tell them to pray this prayer, the wording we suggest --
or a similar pray in your own words. No prayers by rote -- even for salvation.
Jesus tells us Matthew 6:7,
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words." When one prays prewritten prayers by rote, such as from man-written Prayer Books -- this is exactly what Jesus means in this admonition to not pray the same repeated, man-written prayers over and over and over and over.
VP, you tell me,
"The Hail Mary prayer is derived from Sacred Scripture. You don't like it because it shines the spotlight on Mary." No, I do not like ANY canned, prewritten prayers -- for my Lord tells me not to pray repetitious prayers. He wants our prayers to come from our heart -- not from some man's pen.
Do I consider it shining a spotlight on Mary? Possibly. But, I, too, respect Mary. I just do not worship her and I do not consider her the Mother of God.
You say that this is prayer because it was derived from Scripture. The Holy Spirit implanted the seed of our Lord Jesus Christ within the womb of the mortal woman, Mary. Truly this was a supernatural act of God and no one can deny this. But, did this make Mary a supernatural woman? No. Did this make Mary the Mother of God? No, for God being preexisting CANNOT have a mother.
But, in Numbers 22:28 we read of another supernatural act of God,
"And the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, 'What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?'" God performed a supernatural act upon this donkey -- temporarily giving it the power of human speech. Does this mean that we should worship donkeys? Does this mean that donkey was or is divine? No. That was just an ordinary donkey through which God did extraordinary things. The same applies to Mary - a mortal woman through whom God performed a supernatural act. But, still a normal, mortal woman -- who, after the birth of Jesus Christ, went on to give birth to and raise many other children -- normal, mortal children.
No, VP, your Hail Mary prayers are man-written, by rote, prayers being prayed to a mortal woman who has been dead for two thousand years and cannot hear your prayer requests. If you want your prayer requests to be heard in heaven -- go to the ONE AND ONLY MEDIATOR between man and God -- 1 Timothy 2:5-6,
"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time." Yes, Mary is the mortal human womb through which God performed this miracle -- and Mary is the mother of the human Jesus Christ -- but, Mary is, in no way -- the Mother of God!
And, if what I have written offends you, I am truly sorry. However, when you insist upon preaching man-made Traditions which are not Biblical -- I have to refute them from the Bible, the only, the sole source of divine authority -- yes,
"Sola Scriptura" -- by Scripture Alone.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill